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Don't shout at your storage systems

Was posted before, definitely interesting. Shows how drives can be sensitive to vibration. I have seen first hand what a fan that is over 9000 RPM can do to a hard drive. That was a bitch to troubleshoot. :p Basically when the drive was not screwed in the chassis it was ok, as soon as I screwed it in, it would fail to boot. Turns out it was a fan. Put it on 5 volt, and it was ok. So when building storage systems, avoid fans that are too fast. 4000rpm may be ok, but not 9000. :p
 
This is one reason, among others, why desktop-class drives are not desired in such a scenario or build.
 
How is this related to the classification of the drives? All hardware is subject to the laws of physics, and it just so happens that vibration + platters spinning at thousands of RPM does not mix very well. That has nothing to do with whether the drives are called enterprise-class or desktop-class.

The only way around it is to use SSD's, be it desktop class or enterprise class SSD's.
 
No, nearline-class and enterprise-grade drives can withstand far more vibration and noise disruption than desktop drives can. Do some research.
 
The main thing you get with the extra cost is better customer service. The differences in technology are negligible.
 
This video is cool, for it show cases Solaris DTrace. Lot of people thinks that ZFS is a Solaris killer feature, but many more (especially developers) thinks DTrace is much more important.

The reason is that ZFS gives good data protection, but data corruption is not that common, still. Ordinary storage solutions works ok, and seldom, we face data corruption. But it happens.

However, DTrace is something unique and has never had a counterpart before. DTrace allows you to see everything what is going on, in the server. Everything. Literally, Everything. This example, has not been possible before. Totally sick:
https://blogs.oracle.com/bmc/entry/dtrace_and_php_demonstrated

And also, this video show cases the power of DTrace.
 
spazoid said:
Cute.

WD for example lists up to 30G operating shock for their RE4 drives(enterprise class) and the same for their equivalent consumer drives and even up to 65G for the Caviar Green.
Click to expand...

lol, I dare you to run desktop-class drives in an enterprise SAN. Believe whatever you want. :rolleyes:

There's a reason one drive costs $100 and another costs $600, and it isn't just for added tech support. ;)
 
Red Falcon said:
lol, I dare you to run desktop-class drives in an enterprise SAN. Believe whatever you want. :rolleyes:

There's a reason one drive costs $100 and another costs $600, and it isn't just for added tech support. ;)
Click to expand...

I've seen it done :), CLARiiONwith 2TB 5400rpm drives.
 
lol, I dare you to run desktop-class drives in an enterprise SAN. Believe whatever you want.
Click to expand...
Surely that is fairly common nowadays? Cloud storage w/enterprise drives would not be possible on the scale available today.

There's a reason one drive costs $100 and another costs $600, and it isn't just for added tech support.
Click to expand...
The reason one drive costs $600 is that people know other people are willing to pay $600 for it. Pricing information is socially constructed. Have those "other" people conducted controlled studies comparing enterprise drives with consumer ones? Or is this the equivalent of throwing salt over your shoulder to protect your data?

Backblaze claims their most reliable drive is the consumer 3TB Hitachi. I have no idea whether they are being paid in one way or another to say that.
 
One drive is $600 instead of $100 because it's a dual port SAS drive
 
Wow, the ignorance in this thread is amazing.
It's obvious no one here has worked in an enterprise IT environment, and if anyone has, that's sad. :(

You guys have a lot of learning ahead. ;)

Read and weep:
RVent3.jpg


spazoid said:
How is this related to the classification of the drives? All hardware is subject to the laws of physics, and it just so happens that vibration + platters spinning at thousands of RPM does not mix very well. That has nothing to do with whether the drives are called enterprise-class or desktop-class.
Click to expand...
Oh I would say it has a lot to do with whether the drive is enterprise-grade or consumer-grade. :rolleyes:
Apparently the laws of physics don't mix well with the laws of your opinion. :p

grimster said:
The differences in technology are negligible.
Click to expand...
You were saying? :rolleyes:

Eickst said:
One drive is $600 instead of $100 because it's a dual port SAS drive
Click to expand...
In some cases yes, but nearline-class drives tend to be SATA, and are upwards of $600.

Backblaze claims their most reliable drive is the consumer 3TB Hitachi. I have no idea whether they are being paid in one way or another to say that.
Click to expand...
Backblaze is designed for mass/cheap storage with cost/GB in mind, not performance, not in an enterprise-grade environment with enterprise-grade reliability, insurance, hardware, and uptime.
 
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Digital Viper-X- said:
no idea, it was in a lab with about 4 trays or rows of drives, on the outside it said 2tb 5400rpm, underneath though it had a row of 300gb 15krpm drives too
Click to expand...

They could have been nearline-class drives though, I seriously doubt anyone in a professional environment would actively install consumer-grade drives into such a device unless it were a NAS.

Hmm, thanks for the update though. :)


EDIT:
Come on spazoid and grimster, I'm still waiting for your knowledgeable responses with baited breath.
Oh, you have nothing to say, that's what I thought. :rolleyes:
 
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I would love to see a big hard drive like that using today's platter density. You could probably get close to a PB on a single drive. :D Put 4 in raid 10 and you're good to go. Just imagine the epicness. It would probably require a 208v 3 phase power supply.
 
I mean seriously, come on. "oooh what's that, I can't hear you! after my last epic post"

No shit you can't hear any one, it's all text in a forum.

You're both wrong anyway. :p (and I have the biggest wang of all, especially for a white guy. i mean it's crazy how big it is.)
 
Eickst said:
I mean seriously, come on. "oooh what's that, I can't hear you! after my last epic post"

No shit you can't hear any one, it's all text in a forum.

You're both wrong anyway. :p (and I have the biggest wang of all, especially for a white guy. i mean it's crazy how big it is.)
Click to expand...

Picks or shens! :D
 
i prefer to shout at my employees, makes them work better.

the rad/sec, is that a measurement of vibration?
 
Computurd said:
i prefer to shout at my employees, makes them work better.

the rad/sec, is that a measurement of vibration?
Click to expand...

Nah, it's the change in acceleration of rotation. I'm not sure what that graph really means without some backtext.
 
It's red falcon's penis size as a function of time and money spent. Each line represents his turgidity when thinking about the price of Enterprise ($$$), Nearline ($$), and Desktop ($) drives. As you can see, his turgidity lasts longer when he thinks of Enterprise drives compared to the others.

(This is a joke.)
 
Rectal Prolapse said:
It's red falcon's penis size as a function of time and money spent. Each line represents his turgidity when thinking about the price of Enterprise ($$$), Nearline ($$), and Desktop ($) drives. As you can see, his turgidity lasts longer when he thinks of Enterprise drives compared to the others.

(This is a joke.)
Click to expand...

What makes you think I was joking? ;)
 
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Computurd said:
i dont believe that graph has anything to do with the subject tbh.
Click to expand...

It does, the more vibrations, the lower the data transfer throughput and the lower the radiums (rotations/sec) on each drive.

The graph shows how desktop drives cannot handle the increased vibrations, while nearline and enterprise can handle higher vibrations while maintaining their rotations and data throughput.

The graph itself was from Seagate's website, search for the source material listed within the image on their site and you will find it.
 
oh ok. I was sure that had to do with vibration. With the newer class of devices, even the consumer class, being much less apt to cause vibration themselves, i am not sure how much this still applies to todays gear.
For instance, a old school Raptor compared to a new school raptor, vibration wise, HUGE difference. They simply do not generate the same amount of 'rattle'.

would be interesting if there were some specs on the vibration that the drives induce.
 
The article and image are from May 2010, so I would say it's still pretty relevant.

There are major differences between consumer-grade desktop/portable-class drives and enterprise-grade nearline-class and above drives, mainly within the hardware.

Many people think nearline-class just means different firmware to support TLER, but there is much more to it than that, and online-class drives are even more robust.


@ everyone else: As I said before, there is a reason a desktop-class drive will cost $100, while the storage-space 'equivalent' nearline-class drive will cost upwards of $600, and it isn't just due to added tech support. ;)
 
Actually, I was joking. :)

Would those fancy-pants anti-vibration mounts in enthusiast PC cases help? Or is this vibration induced inside the drive itself?
 
Rectal Prolapse said:
Actually, I was joking. :)

Would those fancy-pants anti-vibration mounts in enthusiast PC cases help? Or is this vibration induced inside the drive itself?
Click to expand...

I would guess that the vibration is there regardless of the drive. And this is a guess, but that the more expensive drives have more stable servo's or motors. Like maybe a more accurate feedback system to track the head over the platter.

Still a fascinating video and topic regardless if it matters to you or not.
 
Red Falcon said:
It does, the more vibrations, the lower the data transfer throughput and the lower the radiums (rotations/sec) on each drive.

The graph shows how desktop drives cannot handle the increased vibrations, while nearline and enterprise can handle higher vibrations while maintaining their rotations and data throughput.

The graph itself was from Seagate's website, search for the source material listed within the image on their site and you will find it.
Click to expand...
I can't find it. The graph itself says nothing about vibrations. It doesn't have rotations/sec listed on the graph either, it has rotational acceleration, and im not sure if it's referring to the acceleration of the platters (probably not?) or the rotational acceleration of the drive itself against the gyroscopic forces of the platter (seems more likely). Either way, the graph by itself doesn't really help your case. I was hoping you could link the original article. That would greatly help your case.
 
serpretetsky said:
I can't find it. The graph itself says nothing about vibrations. It doesn't have rotations/sec listed on the graph either, it has rotational acceleration, and im not sure if it's referring to the acceleration of the platters (probably not?) or the rotational acceleration of the drive itself against the gyroscopic forces of the platter (seems more likely). Either way, the graph by itself doesn't really help your case. I was hoping you could link the original article. That would greatly help your case.
Click to expand...

Rad/sec = Radian/sec = 1 rotation per second

Yes, the more radians/sec, the more vibration, and thus the lower the throughput.

This graph wasn't made from high-end gaming cases with vibration-absorption HDD containers, it was used in an enterprise-grade environment such as servers, SANs, DASs, etc.

http://regions.cmg.org/regions/mspcmg/Winter2008/DT-NL-EC Whats the difference.pdf

This is from 2008, but still very relevant by today's disk standards, and will hopefully shed some light on what I have been saying.
btw, go to page 22 for the graph I posted above.

There is a large difference between the drive classes, aside from price point. ;)
Hope this helped you guys.
 
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Red Falcon said:
Rad/sec = Radian/sec = 1 rotation per second

Yes, the more radians/sec, the more vibration, and thus the lower the throughput.

This graph wasn't made from high-end gaming cases with vibration-absorption HDD containers, it was used in an enterprise-grade environment such as servers, SANs, DASs, etc.

http://regions.cmg.org/regions/mspcmg/Winter2008/DT-NL-EC Whats the difference.pdf

This is from 2008, but still very relevant by today's disk standards, and will hopefully shed some light on what I have been saying.
btw, go to page 22 for the graph I posted above.

There is a large difference between the drive classes, aside from price point. ;)
Hope this helped you guys.
Click to expand...
ahhh yes, thank you that is very helpful.

1 radian per second doesn not equal 1 rotation per second.

There are 2*3.141592653... radians within a full rotation. Also, again, the chart doesn't say radians/sec , it says radians/sec^2, this is not rotational speed, it's rotational acceleration.

I'm still not sure which acceleration it's referring to. Seems to be reffering to any rotational acceleration that causes the head to move back and forth (along the same axis as the spinning platters). I guess thats the main performance degradation in drives, i never really thought about that, i always assumed it was any rotation that causes the gyroscopic forces to fight back. But i suppose that's not a vibrational thing, more of a "pick up the entire drive and turn it while it's running" thing.

Thank you for the link, good read.

edit:
Ahh, here's the actual article with your image, and it's very informative on what RV (rotational vibration is)
http://enterprise.media.seagate.com...otational-vibration-in-desktop-vs-enterprise/
 
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