discussing the warez problem

Torgo

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emorphien said:
Lol. That's about all I have to say. Perhaps the gaming magazines aren't as bad as camera mags are now, but they're still just glorified ads.
If you get an "Official Magazine of XXXX" then you'll find an obvious slant, but truth be told, the print magazines are pretty good. Are they perfect? No.

The early and mid 90s were pretty bad for publishers giving reporters junket trips in hopes of coloring their reviews. It still happens, but the big two computer magazines PC Gamer and CGW have company restrictions on such things.
kronchev said:
LAN Center, can you give a link or something, I really dont understand what that even is. ... A LAN center might have recent-ish games (there are a few places in NYC I know of but in a month I wont be close enough to get to them anyway) but it wont have doom3, right?
Wait, you don't know what a LAN center is, but you later define it and know where some are in NYC. You need some scene control there. ;)
kronchev said:
ut warez isnt up there. your local police dep't doesnt care, your state police dep't probabily doesnt either, but its the very well funded dep'ts, like the FBI, that should be doing THE MOST to prevent serious, violent crimes, and is instead wasting their time on white collar crime?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a dodge manuever. I'm not the bad guy. Get the bank robbers, the terrorists, etc. Society doesn't work that way. White collar crime effects everyone, you just don't notice it. Enron cost employees their pensions. Worldcom and Tyco cost you millions in your tax dollars in fixing their mess. You're probably too young to remember the bank failures of '86 and the billions spent to bail out those banks. Cybercrime is on the rise. 419 scams. Eastern European hackers stealing customer lists and blackmailing companies. The Russian and Chinese mafia who run software counterfeit shops. Those are actual dollars being lost.

The individual pirate has very little impact on the bottom line of a company, but from a moral standpoint it's still wrong. You're just on the losing end of the argument.

I'm going to whip out the piracy trump card and pretty much settle this. (Yeah, it can be a cheesy tactic, but after 11 pages it needs to be done.)

Would Jesus pirate software?

There, I said it. I'll even answer it: No.
 
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ok. i am really trying to construct my thoughts here.. legailty is not relevant.. morals are.. morals differ from person to person.. those who value making others happy, crediting others for their work, and doing selfless acts will find happiness in it.. those who value making money, driving a bmw, and pirating games will find happiness in that.. but not for as long.. their happiness will go away and need to be replaced by more money, a bigger bmw, and more pirated games.. so what am i trying to say? i don't know...

the problem is basically greed... trying to get the most out of what you can with the resources you have... as humans we do that we are pumping all of the oil out of the earth, polluting with our cars, using everything electrical we can in our houses which ultimately runs off of some unrenewable resource.. my guess is that either people will have to change, otherwise the earth won't be able to handle it and we will all die or something.. what do you think happened to the dinosaurs.. haha.. i don't know what i am talking about but maybe...

let people pirate games.. i don't think ID software will be hurting too bad from it... the reason everyone wants the game is because it is doing well... but the people pirating the games won't be gettting the same satisfaction out of it as someone who knows the supported the people that made it, and worked hard to be able to enjoy it... those who are lazy will end up regretting it in the long run..

also, it might be a good idea for some of the video game stores to set up computers where you can demo not only the new games, but the computers that they are selling that can play the games too...

i hope i haven't gone off in a tangent too much...

and then after reading what i typed.. i still don't know if i have even started to say what i wanted to...

then i read this white collar vs violent crime... both are equally important, and it can even be argued that they cause each other to an extent..

we should all strive to be like jesus, as was noted i the last post... but sadly, those who choose not to be that way will take advantage of you... there will be those who won't... i don't think anyone at any of the major software companies is having trouble feeding their families.. they can therefore live productive and happy lives... i don't think, but i could be wrong, that piracy has been significant enough to actually cause a company to fail financially.. in some ways the community taht supports piracy doesn't want that to happen because it get rid of programs that they also want to see succeed...

blah.. i can't think anymore.... i will just sit back and read.... i raelly can't form opinions too strongly, becasue everything is much more complicated than it appears...
 

Blackwind

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Tazman2 said:
But again thats assuming each and every one would be bought which research makes it seem that way which is bs.

It is not an assumption. It is an educated guess at the ceiling of lost revenue due to to piracy. It is logical deduction to assess the "impact" of piracy.

Tazman2 said:
Okay lets take your example then. If the impact is so significant then how can Microsoft still be a monopoly and have more money then anybody else? And also the biggest bs is that #s that companys loose from piracy. When they get their "figures" its under the assumption that each and EVERY one of those are lost sales which is not true. Its inflated by atleast 75% with bs because of that assumption.

You are now simply making excuses.

First you claim that the impact would put a company out of business....

So that didn't work out so well ....so lets flip flop! :rolleyes:

NOW you claim that it’s really not THAT significant.....hey! Look at all the money they have! They are being prosecuted for monopoly!

Ok...WHY is Microsoft being so heavily prosecuted?


INTELLECTUAL PROPERTIES!

Again, piracy is piracy. Stealing is stealing. While in many cases Microsoft is not out and out “stealing” and has vigorously tried to defend its position(s)…it’s still theft, misappropriation and misuse of said licensed property. They are also being prosecuted for monopolistic actions in both the US and Europe. Which is completely another ball of wax altogether.
 

emorphien

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The problem with morals is too many people try to fit other peoples' actions in to their very narrow moral beliefs and the way they think the world works. And in doing so they assume that everyone else should agree with their beliefs because they must be right.
 

Blackwind

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emorphien said:
The problem with morals is too many people try to fit other peoples' actions in to their very narrow moral beliefs and the way they think the world works. And in doing so they assume that everyone else should agree with their beliefs because they must be right.

Having morals is never a problem.



Being over zealous in your ideals can be.
 

Chris_Morley

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Blackwind said:
Having morals is never a problem.



Being over zealous in your ideals can be.
I would hope that one would be zealous in being a moral person.
 

Blackwind

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Morley said:
I would hope that one would be zealous in being a moral person.

I'd take that a step further and state it would have been nice if some parents had been just as zealous in instilling such morals in their children.


There is nothing wrong with questioning the letter of the law and its intent or interpretation. It’s one of many reasons I enjoy such liberties and freedoms in the US as a US citizen. However, attempting to argue that you are not breaking the law when clearly you are…is pointless. That’s what defense attorneys are for.


:p
 

loonym

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archevilangel said:
We pay $9 for 2 hour movies, why wouldn't we pay $55 for 20 hour games?(Yeah I know the obvious to that, why pay $9 for 2 hour movies?, for me it's simple it keeps me entertained for 2 hours)
The fact is movies are pirated as much (or more) as any other digital media. It's unstoppable and it extends all the way from the largest motion picture studios all the way down to the guy coding simple apps in his den. There's nothing new or particularly shocking about it. It's simply another form of something that's been around as long as humans have inhabited the earth. All the moral fist shaking, righteous indignation, laws, 'trusted' computing plans, or whatever aren't going to stop it. The guy next door to you does it. The kid that mows your lawn does too. Perhaps the worst offenders are the giant corporations except they're sanctioned by our politicians and laws because that's where the real money is.
 

Chris_Morley

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loonym said:
The fact is movies are pirated as much (or more) as any other digital media. It's unstoppable and it extends all the way from the largest motion picture studios all the way down to the guy coding simple apps in his den. There's nothing new or particularly shocking about it. It's simply another form of something that's been around as long as humans have inhabited the earth. All the moral fist shaking, righteous indignation, laws, 'trusted' computing plans, or whatever aren't going to stop it. The guy next door to you does it. The kid that mows your lawn does too. Perhaps the worst offenders are the giant corporations except they're sanctioned by our politicians and laws because that's where the real money is.
Lemme ask you, does that make it ok for YOU to do it?

Can you stand on your own, without pointing to your neighbor, and say, 'I'm doing right'?

This is a rhetorical question, I don't know what your personal actions are like.
 

Xrave

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Everyone knows it's only illegal if you get caught :eek:
 

loonym

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Morley, ok has nothing to do with it. It's a fact of life whether I do or don't.
 

oldpablo

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Two ends of the spectrum. Those that do what is right because its right and those that do what is right because they think they might get caught doing otherwise. One is guided by an inner desire to do good, one is guided by the inner desire to get what they want when they want who cares about anyone else. Me, me, me! Pick which side you gravitate more towards and slap yourself if its the latter. :)
 

Chris_Morley

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loonym said:
Morley, ok has nothing to do with it. It's a fact of life whether I do or don't.
That's why we have laws in this country. Because we as a civilization realize that some people lack the understanding that some of their actions are considered immoral/wrong by the majority. So we have a system of laws that create accountability and deliver punishment.

The fact of life whether you do or do don't has consequences.
 

Chameleoki

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I see one HUGE reason to pay for software- to stop developers from turning to the dark side (ie making console games). Why do you think more and more developers are making console games with PC ports as an afterthought? Obviously that's where the money is. Could it be because piracy is much less among console owners? I don't have the stats but I have a feeling this has something to do with it.

I do think consoles are the larger market. So PCs are becoming less and less attractive to developers who are just trying to survive. Why make a game for PCs (smaller market) when you'll sell 100,000 copies + 20,000 get warezed when you can sell it to a greater market of consoles and sell 300,000 + almost none get warezed? (Numbers made up).

Come on people, buy the game so that we support the PC industry! I for one am sick of bad ports of good games!
 

Felonious

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Although I've read the various forums here a while this thread motivated me to register and post my 2 cents....

There are many valid ideologies at work here but the most far-fetched is the guilt trip/morality argument. This is a virtual melting pot of different countries, ethnicities, ideologies, religions, etc. so what one person thinks is morally right another might think it's morally corrupt. reading things like "Would Jesus pirate software?" makes me laugh. What if one isn't a Christian or chooses to be an Atheist? You've already lost them there. This has nothing to do with religion other than the game being related to hell:) so interjecting it into the debate as a way of pushing your morality into the mix isn't going to work.

ID isn't a public company and control their own destiny and I'm sure they are getting a huge chunk of change out of D3. Activision is doing the typical corporate-speak as to how they are claiming all of these lost units from illegal downloads. Most of the dl's wouldn't be occurring if ID/Activision put a demo out but we all know that demos these days are a huge risk. They take on the risk of lost sales when they don't put a demo out and that's just the absolute truth. A demo will satiate the appetites of those who are wanting to play the most and there's also the added affect of drawing in all types of other gamers....new and old.

I'm all for trying before buying because as we all know there's tons of crap saturating the market and I can't tell you how many times I've spent $50 on a game I spend less than an hour on. This happens when software is rushed out before it's done like SWG which personifies this argument. It's about recouping costs at the cost of your customers and b.s.ing them through patches until you have a working game. It might not be fun even when it's done. The point is the consumer takes all of the risks not the multi-faceted devs, distributors, and others in the food/sales chain. They all pocket huge profits and just because one might be an enormous fan of any said company doesn't mean said company is all about righteousness. Carmack is the man and isn't egocentric at all so he if any seems to be the guy that everyone wants to be paid in full and I have no problem with that.

Personally I think not having a demo is the heart of this entire episode. being a little more proactive in terms of seeing loss of units these days should be thought of by default and not as an afterthought. yes people would have argued for the release then the demo because we're all impatient but since it was based on "being done when it's done" ID should have just quietly finished a demo then done a simultaneous release of game and demo.

The only people who should be considered criminals are the people selling bootlegs, etc. I really feel the overwhelming response should have been considered and the consequences of not having a demo ready as people are using the full game as their own demo. yes sales will be lost but not on the scale Activision would lead you to believe. Who knows this whole thing could have been set up so software developers could start to go down the RIAA/MPAA road? Stranger things have happened haven't they?

To bad Carmack didn't develop a steam-like application to go along with this wide spread internet leak because he could have bought about 40 more Ferraris. I'm sure he's hurting and having a very hard time buying parts for his spaceship:) I jest of course but hey maybe ID needs a little help on the business side of things? They are always on the cutting edge but missing this badly on D3 in terms of taking the current state of events tells me that someone was asleep at the wheel or maybe those guys are as laid back as they say? Either way it'd be nice to hear Cramacks take on what's happening.

With all of that being said there's no doubt that DOOM 3 will be one of the biggest if not the biggest selling games of all time! No doubt.

I had to add one more thing...
Being a hypocrite because you don't dl a game is disingenuous to say the least. Have you ever copied from a cd?Eaten a piece of food/candy at a store and not paid for it? Downloaded a MP3? Speed on the highway? Used a black marker on a CD? Held the shift key down to bypass copyright protection? Some of the previous questions might or might not be valid but above all they could be seen as immoral to some and a way of life for others. Immoral to me would be Adultery, murder, beating your woman, etc. As far as I'm concerned dl'ing a game to get a feel for it before buying isn't even on the radar IMHO.
 

Tazman2

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Morals.. hmm.. I have morals. I don't murder, rape, hurt (physically), etc. people. Its like the feds going after people who stole a source code instead of going after the supposed terrorists that are supposedly going to invade EVERY f'in week (tired of hearing it weekly on the BS news)! See theres MORALS and theres morals. If everybody had morals then we'd have no crime but again that has levels. REAL crime and software crime. One hurts people phsyically (death, etc.) and the other hurts their already fat wallets. If you had to choose which one u had to enforce and want fixed would u pick piracy? Because in the end it really comes down to that. U CAN'T fix all the worlds problems but some problems are ALOT worse then others. I rather there be less murdering, raping, stealing of cars, etc. I'm tired of looking over my shoulder when i'm taking a leak after a long drinking night in the bushes, backyard, etc.! :p
 

oldpablo

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Felonious said:
Although I've read the various forums here a while this thread motivated me to register and post my 2 cents....

There are many valid ideologies at work here but the most far-fetched is the guilt trip/morality argument. This is a virtual melting pot of different countries, ethnicities, ideologies, religions, etc. so what one person thinks is morally right another might think it's morally corrupt. reading things like "Would Jesus pirate software?" makes me laugh. What if one isn't a Christian or chooses to be an Atheist? You've already lost them there. This has nothing to do with religion other than the game being related to hell:) so interjecting it into the debate as a way of pushing your morality into the mix isn't going to work.

Lets not muddy it up though, the Jesus guy was half-way joking. What is "right" isn't tied to religion in any way and its not a grey area necessarily. Its grey when people try to use it to their advantage. Let's roll back to the cavemen days. Mine or yours. If yours then not mine. If I take yours, it becomes mine, but not right. Ug. You just KNEW it. And nobody can pretend they dont. Its not even up for discussion if you think about it. If you are preparing an argument to try to defeat the idea that downloading by itself with no other information attached is wrong, dont waste your breath. Its small and simple, its wrong. But its when you start adding variables like "I already own it" or "I am buying it tomorrow" that change that fact. Lets not get confused though by saying something is what it is based upon the result. And by the way, I think I lost myself...
 

Cigolon

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"what was yours in now mine through my actions."

<3 some aqua teen hunger force.
seemed like the quote needed to be tossed in there.
 

M1ster_R0gers

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Torgo said:
Would Jesus pirate software?

There, I said it. I'll even answer it: No.

And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes. 18 He said, Bring them hither to me. 19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. 20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. 21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Since they paid for only two fish and five loaves of bread Jesus was a 1337 food pirate..... the ideology card, it tends to bite you in the ass everytime.

If you were in charge of a company today that was releasing a game and the analysts predict that 75 percent of the use will be illegal, but we will still cover our costs and profit 10 million on legal sales, would you release the product?
 

theNoid

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M1ster_R0gers said:
Since they paid for only two fish and five loaves of bread Jesus was a 1337 food pirate..... the ideology card, it tends to bite you in the ass everytime.

If you were in charge of a company today that was releasing a game and the analysts predict that 75 percent of the use will be illegal, but we will still cover our costs and profit 10 million on legal sales, would you release the product?

I'd hire hitmen to lurk these forums, ping/track ips and *cough* .... M U R D E R .. the fools who cheat the companies.

I look at as the same as people who abuse welfare, and unemployment. Always looking for some lame liberal excuse to jusitfy thier illegal actions.

Death I say! Death by Hitmen!

lol.
 

emorphien

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I love the "hold the shift key to avoid copy protection" bit because if you don't they put software on your computer. Last I checked I don't want any software on my computer unless I get to read and sign an agreement. Damn straight I keep autoplay off.
 

Stiler

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I don't like warez. I don't warez games.

However imo it's a two way street.

Over the years there's been things I wish publishers/dev's would change:

1. Demo's, these should come out BEFORE the game, not "after" and they shouldn't just release a multiplayer only demo for a game that's goin to mainly be single player.

2. Price issue. Remember the argument people were using about switchin from "big" boxes to smaller dvd style boxing? that the companies would pass on the savings to the customers? well....that didn't work. The main way I afford games , I wait a few weeks after they come ou tand then buy them on ebay. This is a good way to save about 10-15'ish bucks usually on most games.

3. CD copy protection. This is one thing that PISSES ME OFF so much. It 99% of the time makes a problem for the people who legally bought the game then it does for the warez monkies. It can cause games to not function right aswell as other problems. I hate cd copy protection. IMO the best choice is a CD key checker. This way it wouldn't affect the actual gameplay with cd checks and things and it's also one of the best ways to keep people from warezing a game imo.

I just wish we had more developers like the Serious Sam guys and such.


Gaming has became very infested with huge coprations and things that a lot (not all) of people in the field are in it to simply make money, they stick to the same formula's for games and don't take risk or try new things.

Still I don't warez games. I did warez one game a long time ago, but It was a game i had already ordered from over sea's and had to wait for it to get here, still felt a bit bad though.
 

Diablo

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55 $ for games, 15 A MONTH + TO FOR MMORPG'S. its a money bath and companies are drowning in it.hERE IN cANADA, I SAW DOOM 3 AT LOCAL RETAILER FOR 80 canadain !!!!. please, + all the big name companies are now the only ones in it, EA, Activision, SIerra, ID etc etc etc.
 

Pipo

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Eh I dont have time to read all of this thread, but yeah I bit the bullet and bought this game despite the hefty almost-$60 price tag. I don't usually buy more than two games a year but I dont find it necessary to download illegal games either! Some of you guys really are full of fecal matter! I agree with the guy who said that no one has the right to play every single game and its still illegal to dl the stuff. We all have the opportunity to buy the game, some have to work harder than others. I just finished the 2nd week of my first job ever and I feel good sitting back and feeling like I've earned the new copy of Doom3 in my hands.
Oh yeah, although I realize some people who dled the the game before buying it will still go out and buy the copy, I still believe that their are way more morally weak a-holes who won't buy the game and are part of the reason for the high price tag.
:mad: :mad:
 

Diablo

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I buy up to 6 games a year + i use what you guyz call "warez", So I fail to see your point. Nothing is worse then buying a shitty game (like MOH Breakthrough) and realizing you just wasted 50 bucks. I support my companies and i dl um. I bought Doom 3, & i will buy HL2 & COD :UO. Warez is founded (any nfo file will tell you this) if you like the game BUY IT), i take this in to mind.


Also the people who bitch about watrez are the ones who are to stupid to know where to find it.
 

Pipo

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Oh yeah... and I also agree that the software companies could help lower this problem by releasing comprehensive demos (not just one small shitty level for one gametype) BEFORE the games are released.
 
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I don't understand why some people are still getting all upset about tracking down the warez monkies. The government doesn't have the manpower to do this, and besides, I'd rather have the feds after terrorists, drug dealers, gangs, etc. Take your pick people, who would you rather the government go after, al-Qaida or Suprnova?
 

dargon

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Hello everyone, my name is Juan Juarez and i'm an addict. I get such a rush doing it and I know that even though it's wrong, I can always justify it to myself. It's too expensive, I'll buy it when I have more money, but what if it sucks? None of these are legitimate excuses. Yes the price is high, so is the price of gas, people still pay for it. You''ll buy it when you have more money, sure you will, by that time you will have gotten bored and moved onto the next greatest thing since sliced bread. Suckage can be avoided by waiting, don't be a total impuse buyer who has to have the new toy the moment it comes out, let someone else take the risk, and then ask them how it was, maybe they'll even give you a taste of the new crack so that you can join them in the land of sleep deprevation, once you get off your ass, earn the $55 and blow it on a piece of plastic and cardboard.
 

oldpablo

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Cigolon said:
"what was yours in now mine through my actions."

<3 some aqua teen hunger force.
seemed like the quote needed to be tossed in there.

Ah yes, the mooninites. I should have known they were behind all these warez..
 

Torgo

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Stiler said:
1. Demo's, these should come out BEFORE the game, not "after"...

2. Price issue. Remember the argument people were using about switchin from "big" boxes to smaller dvd style boxing? that the companies would pass on the savings to the customers?

3. CD copy protection.
1. Agreed. It would cut down (somewhat) on people downloading the full version to try it out. Not that much though. It would remove an excuse.

2. You fell for that line? Do you know the real story behind that? It's not the publishers who pushed for it. It was the retailers who wanted it done so they could put more games on the shelf, but still charge publishers the same for shelf space. It happens all the time in the grocery store. Savings are never passed on to the customer. Packaging costs literally pennies between the old way and the new way. I know since I contracted with a CD plant that made games.

3. The copy protection is only there to prevent casual copying. Giving it to your friend or your neighbor. It's never intended to stop pirates. Developers should concentrate on software that spawns copies or phoning home to verify a key. Like it or not, some sort of copy protection is here to stay. It'll just be in a different form than CD checks. (Hey, I hate 'em too.)
 

douglas25

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Let's see,

1) Not so honest software publishers - not delivering demos before a $55 game is released. Biased game reviewers. Sometimes fairly buggy games released (ex. Enter the Matrix, what a cluster fuck)

and

2) Highly intelligent consumers base with powerful PCs with CD/DVD writers, broadband connections and plenty of ways to "release unlicensed software". I don't think anyone feels good about dropping $55 bucks on a dud of a title.


Pirating software illegal? Sure, I agree.

Is it 100% wrong? No, not by far.


I think the software publishers need to remove the need to pirate software from the equation.

Lowest Possible Prices - Why are games released at $55 bucks then 1 month later are $29?

Higher Quality titles - quantity vs quality thing here, make me really WANT to play the game in it's full glory

Better Support - reduce the bugs in games. No more release now and patch later. /cough Ubisoft
 

oldpablo

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douglas25 said:
I think the software publishers need to remove the need to pirate software from the equation.

Come on, you know there will always be plenty of people that will take what they can whenever they want. Thats doesnt make it any more right or even acceptable.
 

loonym

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douglas25 said:
I think the software publishers need to remove the need to pirate software from the equation.

Lowest Possible Prices - Why are games released at $55 bucks then 1 month later are $29?
Games, apps, movies, etc etc etc, have been, are, and will continue to be released by the scene whether they cost $3000 or $10.
 

douglas25

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OldPueblo said:
Come on, you know there will always be plenty of people that will take what they can whenever they want. Thats doesnt make it any more right or even acceptable.


My point is to give more people less of a reason to do it.
 

Syphon Filter

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loonym said:
Games, apps, movies, etc etc etc, have been, are, and will continue to be released by the scene whether they cost $3000 or $10.

That is true...but more people would be inclined to buy them if they wre cheaper rather than dload them.
 

Torgo

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douglas25 said:
Pirating software illegal? Sure, I agree. Is it 100% wrong? No, not by far.

Lowest Possible Prices - Why are games released at $55 bucks then 1 month later are $29? Better Support - reduce the bugs in games. No more release now and patch later. /cough Ubisoft
So if it's 75% wrong then it's okay? 50%? 33%?

As for prices, here's the way it pretty much works. All games are released at full price, even if the publisher knows that it won't sell well. Why? There are those few people who are going to buy a title no matter how expensive it is. When initial sales comes back, the publisher then will drop the price to reach that sweet spot where price meets demand. The top selling games (Diablo, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Sims) remain at a higher price longer than titles that fail to sell decently.

Hey, I totally agree with the quality point. I contributed to two books on the subject and working on a third. Yet, publishers often look to the QA department first for budget cuts and don't train the people on how to perform their job. Most importantly, the gamers can blame themselves for not making it a bigger issue. Publishers have trained the gaming public to accept patches for problems. The publishers then don't make initial quality a big issue and rely on the patch later. A larger problem comes into play if the title doesn't sell well, the budget for patches gets killed and further patches don't come out.
Syphon Filter said:
That is true...but more people would be inclined to buy them if they wre cheaper rather than dload them.
That's true to a point. As the music industry has found, selling songs a la carte has slowed piracy but hasn't stopped it. The problem is that for all the people bitching about the cost of games, the cost can't go down much more. With titles costing $4 to $10 million a pop, you can't undercut yourself too much. Especially the independent developer. Most developers live title to title. If one doesn't succeed, then you're in big trouble. If you don't sell enough copies, you may not have enough money to fund your next game.

Movies are different. You spend $100 million to make it and recover your costs at the theater. There's also the international release. If you don't recover your costs by then, there's always DVD sales. In most cases, DVD sales are just gravy. Considering it costs less than 1% to master and manufacture a DVD compared to the cost of the initial movie (and I'm being generous here) DVDs are where the money is at.

Games have their CD/DVD release as the initial product. They either make or break it here. Developers have to recover costs of their big project as quickly as possible and they have only one shot. If the game heads to the bargin bin, it's too late. By then, another company has bought out the remaining stock at a huuuuuge discount and work to sell that remainder. If you see a game in the bargin bin, the developer gets none of that money back.

If you're Microsoft or EA, you have a large enough development stable to release a game like ESPN 2K5 at $18.00 to gain market share and take a hit. (MS isn't making a profit off of ESPN) MS will just sell a few million copies of Halo 2 at full price and be just fine.

It's simple economics at work.
 

Syphon Filter

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
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quoted because he speaks the truth...

I know understand that you cant cut prices too much but i think it would help...a fair bit too...

Torgo said:
So if it's 75% wrong then it's okay? 50%? 33%?

As for prices, here's the way it pretty much works. All games are released at full price, even if the publisher knows that it won't sell well. Why? There are those few people who are going to buy a title no matter how expensive it is. When initial sales comes back, the publisher then will drop the price to reach that sweet spot where price meets demand. The top selling games (Diablo, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Sims) remain at a higher price longer than titles that fail to sell decently.

Hey, I totally agree with the quality point. I contributed to two books on the subject and working on a third. Yet, publishers often look to the QA department first for budget cuts and don't train the people on how to perform their job. Most importantly, the gamers can blame themselves for not making it a bigger issue. Publishers have trained the gaming public to accept patches for problems. The publishers then don't make initial quality a big issue and rely on the patch later. A larger problem comes into play if the title doesn't sell well, the budget for patches gets killed and further patches don't come out.
That's true to a point. As the music industry has found, selling songs a la carte has slowed piracy but hasn't stopped it. The problem is that for all the people bitching about the cost of games, the cost can't go down much more. With titles costing $4 to $10 million a pop, you can't undercut yourself too much. Especially the independent developer. Most developers live title to title. If one doesn't succeed, then you're in big trouble. If you don't sell enough copies, you may not have enough money to fund your next game.

If you're Microsoft or EA, you have a large enough stable to release a game like ESPN 2K5 at $18.00 to gain market share and take a hit. (MS isn't making a profit off of ESPN) MS will just sell a few million copies of Halo 2 at full price and be just fine.

It's simple economics at work.
 
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