discussing the warez problem

Impact9

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Major Domo said:
Threads concerning warez are allowed as long as they don't cross the line and get into the areas where members begin to give their personal dealings with obtaining warez because they feel that the high price justifies the theft of someone's hard work. This is when the hammer falls on the topic and members get the axe. I have yet to see a thread on warez where the it wasn't closed and someone banned. It's something that is an important topic for discussion, but there seems to be no way of having a discussion without confessions of having or obtaining warez which is against our rules

It's not blurry at all according to the forum rules, it is stealing plain and simple which makes it against the forum regardless what justification you have for downloading a game, playing it and not paying for it. Theft is theft whether it is intellectual property or driving off from a self service without paying for your gas, especially in the view of this forum. I hope that is less blurry to you now.


I'm wondering where/if a person could discuss the problem of warez software. It's a issue that needs to be talked about and not ignored. Does everyone realize the effects it creates? Here it feels like a safe sex issues that everyone knows it needs to be talked about but are afraid to. With Doom 3 being spread it only seems like a good time to discuss this.

If we don't want to tread this water in the forums maybe a write up from Kyle or Steve on this subject would be a good idea.



Edited to include Major Domo's caution so everyone knows the parameters and can stay out of trouble -Ice Czar
 

Muttsta

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I personally don't find it to be a problem if these game companies continue charging ridiculous prices
I mean $55 USD for a game? What if I don't like it?
 
Joined
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lol $55 dollars too much money, thats good...

I dont think file sharing is going to disappear, or skilled crackers for that matter. So what can you do?
 

RagingSamster

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I'm just glad we have a good group of Mods to keep the kiddies in check. I'm waiting for the game, going to grab it when available from a local store. Kyle's site's rep is for good reviews and views on hardware and software. Sullying the forums with "where's warez" talk is detrimental to the site. Thank you Hard Mods for being diligent and keeping this place clean, yet not going overboard - sometimes a word to the not-so-wise is sufficient, other times a ban is called for. [H] forums rock because you are on the job!
 

CommanderFrank

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Threads concerning warez are allowed as long as they don't cross the line and get into the areas where members begin to give their personal dealings with obtaining warez because they feel that the high price justifies the theft of someone's hard work. This is when the hammer falls on the topic and members get the axe. I have yet to see a thread on warez where the it wasn't closed and someone banned. It's something that is an important topic for discussion, but there seems to be no way of having a discussion without confessions of having or obtaining warez which is against our rules.
 

Mwarhead

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55 Dollars is ridiculous. Especially considering how much money Id is probably going to make selling the engine.
 

Muttsta

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I'm not saying warez is right, I'm just saying that its justified
For a kid working at McDonalds $55 bucks is alot of cash to blow on some some
Say this kid buys 3 or 4 games a month, he will be broke!

I just think companies are over charging

Not everyone makes alot of cash, and most of these games are oriented at the younger ages
 

lomn75

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Muttsta said:
I'm not saying warez is right, I'm just saying that its justified
For a kid working at McDonalds $55 bucks is alot of cash to blow on some some
Say this kid buys 3 or 4 games a month, he will be broke!
See, this is why these threads get locked.

You have no obligation, legal, moral, or otherwise, to have video games you haven't paid for. The Constitution doesn't protect inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of the fatality combo. There's no argument to be had here.

The "kid at mcdonalds" example is a great lesson for life in general: you can only buy what you are able to pay for. Unfortunately the US is a collective bunch of turds on this, as evidenced by credit card debt.
 

CodeWaste

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I'm curious exactly as to how often games really use other people's engines? Especially in mainstream games. With game software technology becoming obsolete within 3 years, how many chances will ID really have to license their Doom III engine?

Unreal 2 came out 1.5 years ago, and i have only seen one other game use that engine (not counting Unreal Tournament, thats the same company). I know that unreal is no Doom III, but still, its available so why are we not seeing lots for FPS putting that engine to use?

The quake III engine has been used a lot, but not in very many popular games, elite force II being the only one that comes to mind.

I guess I see ID making all their money from their games and not their engines. If they made incredible engines but crappy games, would they be as successful?
 

lomn75

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CodeWaste said:
I guess I see ID making all their money from their games and not their engines. If they made incredible engines but crappy games, would they be as successful?
Some people think they do. Remember how Q3A touched a lot of nerves for the piss-poor single player? I think D3 will do the same for the multiplayer side.

However, games don't have to be good for the licensor to make money. They just have to be made, and as you said, the Q3 engine has (and is still) powered a lot of games.
 

jmroberts70

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Well if you think that $55 is too much for the game considering the amount of profits they will be making, consider this:

1) The amount of money put into developing this game. I can't immagine what number that is but I'm sure it's pretty high.

2) The amount of piracy that will happen thanks to file sharing. Like it or not, it must be compensated for by the retailer -just like shoplifting .

I'm not saying warez is right, I'm just saying that its justified
For a kid working at McDonalds $55 bucks is alot of cash to blow on some some
Say this kid buys 3 or 4 games a month, he will be broke!

"Justified"?!?! Where does that come from. That McD's worker needs to be inspired to work hard, get educated, move out of the parents house, make more money, ect... Then $55 won't seem like a lot of money. Thinking that all men are entitled to the same benefits sounds a lot like socialism. In america, no one is entitled to anything they don't earn (at least most of the time). This motivates people to do better for themselves and achive greater things in their life. Capitalism works this way.

...[now ducking for the flames]
 

[Tripod]MajorPayne

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There is no "justified" about it. Warez is illegal, because it's STEALING. If it feels like "cracking" or whatever, it's still illegal. It is an issue that, unfortunately, no one can do a whole lot about. It's like speeding. Lots of people do it, and police are forced to concentrate only on the worst offenders. You might not get caught, but it's still stealing something that lots of highly educated people put years of work and millions of dollars of R & D into.

^
|
|
This statement came form a 15 year old (Me). I was brought up being told that illegal is illegal, and there is no justified about it.

Have a nice day. :)
 

texuspete00

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Muttsta said:
I'm not saying warez is right, I'm just saying that its justified
For a kid working at McDonalds $55 bucks is alot of cash to blow on some some
Say this kid buys 3 or 4 games a month, he will be broke!

I just think companies are over charging

Not everyone makes alot of cash, and most of these games are oriented at the younger ages

It's a privelege to be able to buy 4 games a month... Not a God given right. So say said worker can't? BooHoo. That's why he studies hard and probably shouldn't even be buying 4 games a month. (edit: Guess its been said) Everyone wants stuff handed to them on a silver platter.

Another guy says its not right but justified... thats a full circle comment. Look up justified in the dictionary. What about the guys who made the game? You high and mighty guys are more entitled to the game then they are their money?

Just consider this... a lot of us just don't want to know what you are doing. We see these excuses, lets all be real they are a crock of dung, and it sparks the debate. Over and over, it's everywhere. Little stupid comments even like "best game I never paid for." Just shut up.
 

moralpanic

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Muttsta said:
I personally don't find it to be a problem if these game companies continue charging ridiculous prices
I mean $55 USD for a game? What if I don't like it?

What do you do when you go to a restaurant and have a meal, but found out you didn't like curry food? What do you do when you go to a movie but found it to be shitty?

Lets say you get 20 hours of gameplay out of it, all for $55. What else in life can you get that much entertainment for $55? I was on a date a few months ago, and we had an hour before the movie starts, so we headed to the arcade. In that hour, i spent $50 on change for us two at the arcade. $50 for ONE hour.
 

moralpanic

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Muttsta said:
I'm not saying warez is right, I'm just saying that its justified
For a kid working at McDonalds $55 bucks is alot of cash to blow on some some
Say this kid buys 3 or 4 games a month, he will be broke!

I just think companies are over charging

Not everyone makes alot of cash, and most of these games are oriented at the younger ages

So because it's too expensive, that justify stealing it? If that kid wanted a $500 bike, but couldn't afford it, it would be fine for him to steal it instead?
 

texuspete00

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CodeWaste said:
I'm curious exactly as to how often games really use other people's engines? Especially in mainstream games. With game software technology becoming obsolete within 3 years, how many chances will ID really have to license their Doom III engine?

Unreal 2 came out 1.5 years ago, and i have only seen one other game use that engine (not counting Unreal Tournament, thats the same company). I know that unreal is no Doom III, but still, its available so why are we not seeing lots for FPS putting that engine to use?

The quake III engine has been used a lot, but not in very many popular games, elite force II being the only one that comes to mind.

I guess I see ID making all their money from their games and not their engines. If they made incredible engines but crappy games, would they be as successful?

Uhm... put down the crack pipe. Games using Quake 3... hmm..Call of Duty, Jedi Knight 2&3, Deus Ex, Return to Castle Wolfenstein... much more. Software can be updated. It will not stay exactly the same. for 3 years either. You mentioned Unreal... yes no Doom3 class engine but there's America's army and the Splinter Cell games to name a couple. The list goes on and on rivalling the list of how many games are NOT based on the small handful of big licensed engines.
 

kick@ss

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If you work at McDonalds chances are you're probably still in high school and have no (or minimal) bills and can easily afford $55.
 

bobsaget

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I have never spent 50 dollars on a game...

I wait till I can either trade it on the forums or get it at walmart for 29.99...

I did buy BF:V for 39 though...:( :D
 

enm4r

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I think the McDonalds comment was pretty offkey, and definately not a justification for pirating games, yet I still do. I am a firm supporter of try and buy method. If id had released a demo alongside the release, or a week before, instead of maybe a month or so afterwards, I would have snagged the demo to determine whether or not I'd buy the game. I wouldn't buy a car without giving it a test drive, and there are few games I'll buy without playing first. If pirating the game is going to be the only way to do that, so be it. In a week it will either be uninstalled because I didn't like it or I'll have bought a copy and the pirate copy will be moot. I can sit at my desk and look at all the games I habe bought in the last year, knowing that I bought and supported quality titles. But I also know that I saved hundreds of dollars by playing a game for a couple hours only to realized that there was no way I wanted to pay $50 on it. Pirating should never replace buying, but I do believe they can work hand in hand.
 

lomn75

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Still not a good excuse. Video games are not cars. You don't get to watch the first 15 minutes of a movie for free, eat three bites of a burger for free, try a gallon of premium gas for free....

If you're so concerned, read reviews and either be patient and wait for a demo or find a friend and try his.

//edit: shareware goes hand-in-hand with purchasing, yes. id has exemplified this. Piracy, however, is not shareware.
 

Munka

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CodeWaste said:
I'm curious exactly as to how often games really use other people's engines? Especially in mainstream games. With game software technology becoming obsolete within 3 years, how many chances will ID really have to license their Doom III engine?

Unreal 2 came out 1.5 years ago, and i have only seen one other game use that engine (not counting Unreal Tournament, thats the same company). I know that unreal is no Doom III, but still, its available so why are we not seeing lots for FPS putting that engine to use?

we ARE... Just maybe not in the FPS genre per se.... had you done your homework before writing this post you'd know about:

Splinter Cell: (whatever the first was called)
SPlinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow
Rainbow Six: Raven Shield
XIII

and then a modified UT engine for games like Deus Ex: Invisible War and the similar THief 3 engine...

that's a fair number of titles right there... and that's not counting any of the Unreal games that have been released lately...

and just so you know UT2003 came much before Unreal 2 and was the first game to use that engine.

I would say that it is safe to say we will see a fair bit of use out of the D3 engine, and probably a similar ammount out of the source engine from HL2... D3 maybe to a lesser extent due to the way lighting is handled (not that it is wrong or not suitable in ANY wy for what it is used for).


edit: and texuspete00 the original Deus Ex was built on the original Unreal Engine... and in terms of graphics and net code and what not, the current Unreal Engine IS one HELL of an engine...
 

enm4r

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lomn75 said:
Still not a good excuse. Video games are not cars. You don't get to watch the first 15 minutes of a movie for free, eat three bites of a burger for free, try a gallon of premium gas for free....

If you're so concerned, read reviews and either be patient and wait for a demo or find a friend and try his.


Reviews are a joke. Not only are most bought, but they hardly ever stick to impartial observations and instead try to force their opinions down your throat. You don't get to watch the movie, but you get a prieview, a trailer. Saying that you get movies of a game isn't the same either, because you lack control. A movie prieview is in the same medium as the product, a game should be the same way. And there have been some movies, I can think of a few in the past year or so that have just put up the first 5-10 minutes of their movie instead of a complete trailer...and I really enjoyed that. I understand that no everyone agrees, and that's perfectly fine. But what I don't like are companies throwing out billions of dollar figures and knowing that they chalked up my download as a loss, when I have never substituted a pirated game for one I would have bought.
 

RancidWAnnaRIot

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lomn75 said:
See, this is why these threads get locked.

You have no obligation, legal, moral, or otherwise, to have video games you haven't paid for. The Constitution doesn't protect inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of the fatality combo. There's no argument to be had here.

The "kid at mcdonalds" example is a great lesson for life in general: you can only buy what you are able to pay for. Unfortunately the US is a collective bunch of turds on this, as evidenced by credit card debt.

i agree with this dude.. that fact that you can't afford 4 -5 games month, does not mean it's okay to steal... anyway i think 4 - 5 games is too much.. i mean you'll probably spend your whole life indoors, if you played that much..

I don't think $55 is that much of a rediculous price.. that's why you should game like i do.. i wait till games drop in price... see i just bought medal of honor allied assult and rainbow six 3 for $20 each.. that's a good deal!!!! So basically this is what i'm saying.. if you have a problem with price.. just wait till it gets cheaper.. that's what i do..
 

moralpanic

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enm4r said:
Reviews are a joke. Not only are most bought, but they hardly ever stick to impartial observations and instead try to force their opinions down your throat. You don't get to watch the movie, but you get a prieview, a trailer. Saying that you get movies of a game isn't the same either, because you lack control.

Er it's a review, so of course it's going to be based on the reviewer's opinions. "Forcing their opinions down your throat"? I think you're hyperbolising the reviews or you take the reviews a little too personally.

A movie prieview is in the same medium as the product, a game should be the same way. And there have been some movies, I can think of a few in the past year or so that have just put up the first 5-10 minutes of their movie instead of a complete trailer...and I really enjoyed that.

Which movies have done this? I've NEVER seen such a trailer before.

I understand that no everyone agrees, and that's perfectly fine. But what I don't like are companies throwing out billions of dollar figures and knowing that they chalked up my download as a loss, when I have never substituted a pirated game for one I would have bought.

I don't buy this. I don't buy people who say that if they enjoy a game, they'll purchase it. They may do that now and then, or they'll do that because they have to (ie need a unique key to get online), but it's easier for people to say "Well, i've enjoyed the game... but i'll save my money for a game in which i can't just download it." or you'll reason like you just did, "The company already made $200 million, i think that's enough, i'll save my money for hardware upgrade." etc etc.
 

Minus000

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It is nice to see a good disscusion about piracy.

I will start by saying their is no right to pirate software or proper justification for the action. When someone pirates software they need to simply accept it is theft. I won't say it is a crime though, a crime is an action with punishment.

I myself don't feel piracy is an immoral action because you are not depriving anyone, its always been a sticky area but we are dealing with duplicating data, something that can be replicated infinitly.

I am willing to accept people pirating software but they should stop trying to defend their stance, simply accept it is theft and take responsibility for your actions.
 

Pcrepairman

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lomn75 said:
Still not a good excuse. Video games are not cars. You don't get to watch the first 15 minutes of a movie for free, eat three bites of a burger for free, try a gallon of premium gas for free....

If you're so concerned, read reviews and either be patient and wait for a demo or find a friend and try his.

//edit: shareware goes hand-in-hand with purchasing, yes. id has exemplified this. Piracy, however, is not shareware.


You don't get to watch the first 15 minutes of a movie for free?
I have dishnetwork and you do on pay per view

eat three bites of a burger for free?
You actually can return food at mcdonalds or burger king, wendys or any other fast food chain I ahve done it befor after taking 3 or more bites


You are right about the gas
 

Alex A.

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The amount of warez increase as the amount of demos developers make decrease

I wonder why some people are downloading a game instead of shelling out 45-55 dollars on a game they can't even try out to see if they like it. :rolleyes:
 

moralpanic

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Minus000 said:
I myself don't feel piracy is an immoral action because you are not depriving anyone, its always been a sticky area but we are dealing with duplicating data, something that can be replicated infinitly.

You're depriving the people who spent all those years and hardwork making the game.
 

Senor Forum

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Senor Forum believes that arguing about Warez is pointless as it's always going to be around regardless of what people think.

Senor Forum thinks this dead horse has had it's head bashed in for way too long now.

Senor Forum couldn't care less if people Warez the game or not.

Senor Forum doesn't work at McDonalds.

Senor Forum sure could go for a spicy chicken sandwich from Wendy's.

Senor Forum OUT.
 

enm4r

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moralpanic said:
Which movies have done this? I've NEVER seen such a trailer before.

Taking Lives did it with the first 7 minutes of the movie, I think the Village did it after the special they did on M Night on the Sci-Fi channel, and there's another one I'm forgetting. Hardly the trend, but i thought they were much more effective than a 2 minute trailer with scene cuts every 2 seconds.

I don't buy this. I don't buy people who say that if they enjoy a game, they'll purchase it. They may do that now and then, or they'll do that because they have to (ie need a unique key to get online),

I think that's the hardest part for anyone to get past. I completely understand not buying it because what do you have? My word? No ones going to stop me from playing the game once its already downloaded, so why would I go spend the money? The answer is that I do because that's what I think it right.Whether or not you believe it is up to you, but that's where I am coming from. I can see all the cases right now to Call of Duty, BF:V, the Splinter Cells, Far Cry, the list goes on and those are from only the last year or so. What I'm glad I don't see are games like Manhunt, Soldier of Fortune 2, UT2k4...games that I just didn't like. I probably played them for 2 hours each at the very most, and then uninstalled them. Not only would have $40-50 been completely out of the question for 2 hours of gameplay, why would I support a company I think made a bad game.

but it's easier for people to say "Well, i've enjoyed the game... but i'll save my money for a game in which i can't just download it." or you'll reason like you just did, "The company already made $200 million, i think that's enough, i'll save my money for hardware upgrade." etc etc.

That's not really what I said at all. I never said they made enough, so my one pirated copy isn't hurting them, that logic is completely full of holes. What I DID say was that I have never cost a company money they would have earned from me, because I pirated it instead. Even the games I bought, I usually had a cracked copy first OR A DEMO, and then went out to buy. $50 for an enjoyable game that I will get playtime out of is not a lot of money, and it is worth it to me. But $50 for a game that I'm never going to play and uninstal 2 days after I buy it and have it sit on a shelf degrading in value is a complete waste of money. Not to mention I've just given a developer positive reinforcement for a crappy game. That is more important than any $50...I don't work at McDonalds, and I'm hardly in highschool. :)
 

Staples

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kick@ss said:
If you work at McDonalds chances are you're probably still in high school and have no (or minimal) bills and can easily afford $55.
And if they live on their own, I doubt they could afford the $1500 computer to run it decently.
 

Whatsisname

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thats not for you to decide. All you can decide is whether you will buy it or not.

Mwarhead said:
55 Dollars is ridiculous. Especially considering how much money Id is probably going to make selling the engine.
 
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For something like Doom III with so much hype, warez versions that only run single player may just get people to like the game enough to go buy it for the multiplayer. Kind of like the logic that downloading a song off the web makes you by a CD, but it happens
 

loonym

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moralpanic said:
You're depriving the people who spent all those years and hardwork making the game.
lol you think them folks are in the poorhouse cause a few ppl fired up the torrent? lol
 

KingKaeru

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loonym said:
lol you think them folks are in the poorhouse cause a few ppl fired up the torrent? lol

would they be able to pay the bills if they gave away the game for free?

--KK
 

oqvist

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55$ is not ridiculous at all. movies cost 30$ and that is about 2 hours of fun. Many games gives 20 hours of fun or even more. And a game that takes 4 years to develop they shouldn´t charge you for it??

Stop pirating games and the prices will drop it´s as simple as that.
 

cuemasterfl

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It's amazing how many times I read "warez is bad", "you are stealing", etc. The same people making those comments, or a good portion of, are doing it themselves - I would put money on it. They just don't admit to it.

(not directed at any one individual)
 

Senor Forum

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KingKaeru said:
would they be able to pay the bills if they gave away the game for free?

--KK


Senor Forum would like to point out how irrelevant that comment was.

Senor Forum thinks that the company will do just fine.

Senor Forum thinks that 10000000 people could download it, and that Carmack could still afford his precious Lambo.

Senor Forum OUT.
 

ScretHate

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Lord of Shadows said:
lol $55 dollars too much money, thats good...

I dont think file sharing is going to disappear, or skilled crackers for that matter. So what can you do?
Teach kids at an early age, the value of morality and ethics, and most imporantly, a sense of self-respect derived from personal honor. People need to learn that there are ideals higher than money and infinitely more valuable.
 
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