Details of anti-glare sparkle on IPS screens?

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wendellp

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It appears to be common knowledge that in addition to blurriness, anti-glare coatings on IPS screens cause a sparkly effect. I have been unable to see this in person, since the only non-TN screens in my local shops are the Apple with glossy IPS. I also haven't found any technical explanation or good illustrations online. I hoping to learn:


1. Does the AG sparkle only occur on IPS?
2. As the AG is made lighter, does the sparkle diminish as much as the blurr?
3. For a given level of AG, do S-IPS, H-IPS, and e-IPS show the same level of sparkle?
4. Very subjective, I suppose, but how much does sparkle on an IPS interfere with viewing fine detail compared to another type of screen with the same level of AG?
 
All I can say is it will drive you nuts if you pay attention to it. Put some distance and just do your thing.
 
wendellp said:
It appears to be common knowledge that in addition to blurriness
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I've seen some people complain about that, but I don't see blurriness with a grainy coating. I just see what looks like a faint coating of dust on lighter colors. It's not ideal, but it's not that bad.

It kind of looks like this:
noise.png


1. Does the AG sparkle only occur on IPS?
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I saw one particular 24" S-PVA panel with a grainy coating, but the graininess was different. It was like there were two layers of a finer grit coating, while the IPS graininess is coarser and only has one layer. Most other panels have a lighter coating.

As the AG is made lighter, does the sparkle diminish as much as the blurr?
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I don't see any difference in sharpness, but a lighter coating has a smoother appearance on light colors.

3. For a given level of AG, do S-IPS, H-IPS, and e-IPS show the same level of sparkle?
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There are mixed opinions about this. Some swear there are variations but I've only seen two levels. The first generation H-IPS panels in the NEC 2490/2690 and the Planar PX2611W/DoubleSight DS-263N had a lighter coating. All other non-glossy IPS panels I've seen have a grainy coating. The older S-IPS panels might have been worse, but I can't be sure since I haven't seen one side by side with the newer panels.

4. Very subjective, I suppose, but how much does sparkle on an IPS interfere with viewing fine detail compared to another type of screen with the same level of AG?
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It's only a problem if you're trying to determine if a light-colored image has very faint noise. Otherwise, it's just a minor detail.
 
I'm using an IPS panel with a grainy coating, but I've seen all kinds.

Oh yeah, I should mention on glossy H-IPS panels like the Apple displays, I can see graininess at an angle but not straight on. I'm not sure why that is.
 
Can you tell me what brand and model you are using? You seem to be very knowledgeable about monitors so I'm interested in knowing what you use. :)
 
NEC EA231WMi, mainly because it's a standard gamut low-lag IPS monitor that is capable of higher refresh rates at the native resolution like 72 Hz and 83 Hz and is capable of handling 1080p and 720p from consoles without screwing up the aspect ratio. Color uniformity is a crapshoot though.
 
wendellp said:
I have been unable to see this in person, since the only non-TN screens in my local shops are the Apple with glossy IPS. I also haven't found any technical explanation or good illustrations online. I hoping to learn:
Click to expand...

There is no need for concern regarding the IPS AG coating. Worrying about the heavy AG is for nitpickers whom have no useful set of priorities when choosing a monitor. I have used TN, IPS and PVA, and IPS is the easiest on the eyes.
 
ToastyX said:
I don't see blurriness with a grainy coating. I just see what looks like a faint coating of dust on lighter colors.
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I think you are saying that while you see some noise caused by the AG, you aren't seeing a decrease in sharpness. Is a matte IPS just as sharp as a glossy, and any IPS screen sharper than other types with the same level of AG? That would be major.

No dustiness at all on dark fields? That's my main concern.

Very helpful illustration, BTW. Just what I was looking for.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
There is no need for concern regarding the IPS AG coating. Worrying about the heavy AG is for nitpickers whom have no useful set of priorities when choosing a monitor.
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Well, AG coatings are not necessarily created equal amongst IPS monitors. Quite a few posters have stated that the difference between the AG coating on the DELL U3011 and HP ZR30w is rather significant. And imho, when you're spending $800+ for a monitor, there is no such thing as being too nitpicky. ;-)

@wendellp: With my DELL U3011, everything looked razor sharp with no hint of blurriness. Whites looked extremely "sparkly", however, like there was dust on the screen. This "sparkle" effect did disappear when I had brown or black colors on the screen. If you are primarily concerned with dark fields only, it doesn't sound like a strong AG coating will be much of an issue for you.
 
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Whoisthisreally said:
There is no need for concern regarding the IPS AG coating. Worrying about the heavy AG is for nitpickers whom have no useful set of priorities when choosing a monitor. I have used TN, IPS and PVA, and IPS is the easiest on the eyes.
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I recall you saying your 2209's AG coating was harsher then your Eizo, am I correct?

I have also read on here that people say the coating on panels like the U2410 and E-IPS models is also harsher then the 2209WA.

In the past year I have owned the following Matte Displays:

LG W2442PA
Samsung PX2370
LG W2453V
LG W2361v
Viewsonic VX2739
Samsung 2233rz
Acer S243HL

The LG panels have had slightly harsher AG then the rest. I found this only to be very noticeable once set up next to my current C-PVA or Glossy screens. Without a reference display noticeability diminishes.

The worst AG coating I have seen was on the S-PVA Samsung 275T.

The least AG coating I have seen is on the Samsung C-PVA panels.

It is definately something to worry about, I find it makes certain content almost painful to watch. It can be like viewing content through a screen door or dirty windshield.

Cranking up the brightness helps, however with whiter whites comes greyer blacks=fail.


My question for the OP would be which is the only one that really matters is:


#1 What display are you coming from?
 
NCX said:
I recall you saying your 2209's AG coating was harsher then your Eizo, am I correct?

I have also read on here that people say the coating on panels like the U2410 and E-IPS models is also harsher then the 2209WA.
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There is no difference between the 2209WA and the U2311. The EV2333W has reduced anti-glare sparkle relative to these IPS monitors but it is still quite present. IPS monitors that come with this AG finish are used in proof work.
 
wendellp said:
I think you are saying that while you see some noise caused by the AG, you aren't seeing a decrease in sharpness. Is a matte IPS just as sharp as a glossy, and any IPS screen sharper than other types with the same level of AG? That would be major.
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Between glossy and matte, there might be a very slight difference in sharpness, but nothing significant to me. Between different levels of matte coatings, there is practically no difference. All current IPS panels are based on H-IPS, which includes e-IPS, so there is no difference in sharpness between any of the current models.

The only LCD panels I've seen that had sharpness issues were certain S-PVA panels with a split pixel structure, which screwed with my eyes and made certain things look like they were shifted by half a pixel, causing a slight vertical blur. I've never seen anything like that on any other type of panel. TN and IPS have about the same sharpness, and VA without the split-pixel structure doesn't have any issues.

wendellp said:
No dustiness at all on dark fields? That's my main concern.
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It's hard to see any graininess on dark colors because there's not enough light to make it sparkly.
 
Yea I've had a few anti-glare screens...

None of them are as bad as the D600 panel I pulled to put in my T500.. 1920 x 1200 15.4" and it's super grainy anti-glare. It's really really noticeable.

But on my 3007WFP-HC it's only noticeable if you're looking for it, otherwise nothing...
 
I have 3 monitors, vx2025wm (p-mva), 2233rz (tn), u2410 (h-ips)

2233rz has the worst coating seconded by the viewsonic, even the larger pixel pitch of the samsung didin't help. u2410 coating is ok.

So no, is not IPS specific problem.

PD: As usual NCX's u2410 bashing campaign :p
 
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Many people on here have complained about severity of the AG coatting on the U2410 and EA2311 compared to the other IPS panels.

Not bashing, just posting what others have said.

Of course owners will say other wise, despite scientific evidence proving it is medicore.
 
The U2410 has a pretty harsh AG coating , no getting around that. At first it bugged me a tad but overtime I don't even notice it and its unnoticeable at night time due to the lack of reflecting light.

I wish Dell had used a regular Mat coating and just left it as normal. I don't really get the need for super aggressive AG coating considering its not like these monitors will be used on boats in the Caribbean during the hight of summer.
 
Godmachine said:
The U2410 has a pretty harsh AG coating , no getting around that. At first it bugged me a tad but overtime I don't even notice it and its unnoticeable at night time due to the lack of reflecting light.

I wish Dell had used a regular Mat coating and just left it as normal. I don't really get the need for super aggressive AG coating considering its not like these monitors will be used on boats in the Caribbean during the hight of summer.
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Would you say the 2233rz had harsher coating then the U2410?

I found it was standard fare in terms of AG coating amongst TN's.


But then this is calibrated to 120cdm/2, at lower luminance the effect of the coating is far more noticeable on light/white content.
 
I removed the AG layer on both 2233rz and vx2025wm, because simply cant stand it, maybe bad viewing angles affect too. These are glossy now, so maybe i know what im talking about.

u2410 is fine compared to these two, of course there is grain, i have no problem to remove it too, but i find it unnecessary. u2711 has the most complains maybe because the AG interfere with the very small pixels.
 
I have IPS (HP ZR24w) next to an older PVA and there is very little difference in AG coating between them. I have seen TN panels with harsher coating before so it's not really IPS specific. To be honest, with all the issues plaguing every LCD tech, AG coating is pretty much at the bottom of the list of things that may bother me.
 
On my U3011 I only really notice the sparkle against white or light colored backgrounds. It doesn't affect any fine detail viewing however.
 
I'm curious - what do you people mean exactly by a "harsh" anti-glare coating? This coming from a guy who still uses a CRT at home, but wants to have a full breadth of panel knowledge for the day this baby finally dies.
 
Walker said:
I have IPS (HP ZR24w) next to an older PVA and there is very little difference in AG coating between them. I have seen TN panels with harsher coating before so it's not really IPS specific. To be honest, with all the issues plaguing every LCD tech, AG coating is pretty much at the bottom of the list of things that may bother me.
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Well said. Another thing that has been left out of this conversation is that tha AG coating can and does vary on the same make and model of LCD. I would not let this isssue be a deciding factor.

Dave
 
Whoisthisreally said:
There is no need for concern regarding the IPS AG coating. Worrying about the heavy AG is for nitpickers whom have no useful set of priorities when choosing a monitor.
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Yes, I am "nitpicking" because heavy AG coating prevents colors to be rendered correctly, makes it difficult to read fine, small-sized fonts.

AG is not always evil. But in some applications (Dell U2711 perfect example) it makes the monitor completely worthless.
 
defaultluser said:
I'm curious - what do you people mean exactly by a "harsh" anti-glare coating? This coming from a guy who still uses a CRT at home, but wants to have a full breadth of panel knowledge for the day this baby finally dies.
Click to expand...

On some monitors the anti-glare coating is excessively thick and blocks the transmission of light. It will make whites look like cream. There is also a "sparkle" that makes it very difficult to read smaller, finer fonts as it "chunks them up". Think of it as looking through a very fine screen-door window.

Here is an excellent example of a harsh anti-glare coating. This person has actually gone to the trouble of removing the thick sheet of plastic (which all AG coating is) and shown us what their monitor looks like with and without the coating:

TIDbz.jpg



MOST anti-glare coating is not this bad. But to people like me who work with digital images professionally, it is absolutely a non-starter to work with crap like this. Completely unacceptable.
 
I really don't understand why some new displays like the DELL U3011 use such aggressive AG coating. I also used to own a Xerox XG-91D which used XShield glass. The XShield finish literally straddled the line between matte and glossy. The anti-glare coating was completely invisible and whites looked very "clean", but I could also put the Xerox directly under a florescent light and there was no glare. Next to the Xerox XG-91D, I found the DELL U3011 just horrible to use. The strong AG coating didn't make it any more anti-reflective than the XG-91D, but whites were heavily compromised and to make a long story short, it went right back to the DELL store. The bottom line is that if you want to be rid of the grainy "sparkle" present on many of the new LG IPS panels, you don't need a glossy panel like Apple uses --- you simply need a higher quality AG treatment process, as seen on 5 years old Xerox displays.
 
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Ashok0 said:
I really don't understand why some new displays like the DELL U3011 use such aggressive AG coating. I also used to own a Xerox XG-91D which used XShield glass. The XShield finish literally straddled the line between matte and glossy. The anti-glare coating was completely invisible and whites looked very "clean", but I could also put the Xerox directly under a florescent light and there was no glare. Next to the Xerox XG-91D, I found the DELL U3011 just horrible to use. The strong AG coating didn't make it any more anti-reflective than the XG-91D, but whites were heavily compromised and to make a long story short, it went right back to the DELL store. The bottom line is that if you want to be rid of the grainy "sparkle" present on many of the new LG IPS panels, you don't need a glossy panel like Apple uses --- you simply need a higher quality AG treatment process, as seen on 5 years old Xerox displays.
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I think it all comes down to cutting costs and doing things as cheap as possible. Good AR glass is expensive.
 
Mark down another returned U2711.

I've had a 23" Apple Cinema Display (aluminum) for over 6 years and loved it, but recently I've been wanting more screen real estate and a "fresher" screen. After seeing great reviews for the U2711, I ordered one when I saw a low price on slickdeals.

When it arrived and I hooked it up, maybe 10 minutes into using it (and continuously fiddling with it to get the color looking right) I started to get a headache. I was hoping this was due to the color/contrast/lighting. But even after calibrating with an Xrite device, lights on or off, that monitor is just plain hard to look at. Anything from a medium gray and up has a "frosted" look to it. Text looks cloudy/fuzzy as a result, and this is coming from someone with flawless vision. I connected my ACD back to the computer and did a side by side, and despite the colors being miles apart, the clarity on the ACD was much better. Granted, the ACD is 1920x1200 while the U2711 is 2560x1440, but if I'm working on a monitor 8+ hours a day, I can't have my eyes/head hurting.

Thus, back in the box it went. Dell will be sending UPS by tomorrow for a full refund.

Any suggestions other than the new 27" ACD? I want to try it, but am worried about reflections.
 
black107 said:
Mark down another returned U2711.

I've had a 23" Apple Cinema Display (aluminum) for over 6 years and loved it, but recently I've been wanting more screen real estate and a "fresher" screen. After seeing great reviews for the U2711, I ordered one when I saw a low price on slickdeals.

When it arrived and I hooked it up, maybe 10 minutes into using it (and continuously fiddling with it to get the color looking right) I started to get a headache. I was hoping this was due to the color/contrast/lighting. But even after calibrating with an Xrite device, lights on or off, that monitor is just plain hard to look at. Anything from a medium gray and up has a "frosted" look to it. Text looks cloudy/fuzzy as a result, and this is coming from someone with flawless vision. I connected my ACD back to the computer and did a side by side, and despite the colors being miles apart, the clarity on the ACD was much better. Granted, the ACD is 1920x1200 while the U2711 is 2560x1440, but if I'm working on a monitor 8+ hours a day, I can't have my eyes/head hurting.

Thus, back in the box it went. Dell will be sending UPS by tomorrow for a full refund.

Any suggestions other than the new 27" ACD? I want to try it, but am worried about reflections.
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Either you go for the ACD

Review:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3946/apple-27inch-led-cinema-display-review

Which has a poor black level (0.25cdm/2 @200 brightness, a good display does 0.21cdm/2 black level), great color AVG response time and low input lag or you opt for the

Eizo Foris FS2311

which uses extremely light AG coating comapred to your standard Matte screen. PRAD has reviewed it but its a subrscription service that needs to be translated. Foturately they reviewd it's predecssor the EV2333.

Review:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-eizo-ev2333wh-bk.html

The FS2331 is pretty much the same display but has a better response time and almost 0 input lag. Black level is also 4x deeper then that of the ACD.

The only quality Glossy TN I know of is the Acer G245H
 
My Elitebook 2730P has a glossy coating on it, it drove me crazy at first. But then it was fine, that the EB's don't have IPS screens but they do have an anti glare screen.

My boss has a Eizo FS2311 and I am envious of it.
 
wendellp said:
1. Does the AG sparkle only occur on IPS?
2. As the AG is made lighter, does the sparkle diminish as much as the blurr?
3. For a given level of AG, do S-IPS, H-IPS, and e-IPS show the same level of sparkle?
4. Very subjective, I suppose, but how much does sparkle on an IPS interfere with viewing fine detail compared to another type of screen with the same level of AG?
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1: No. But they get more famous for it because LG (who makes just about all IPS monitor screens) typically uses a stronger AG coating.

2: IMO blur is a complete non issue unless we are talking about at the pixel level, the shimmer/sparkle is the annoying factor. Milder coatings reduce this.

3: Difficult to say. All the standard (not glossy or A-TW) LG ips screens I have seen had about the same AG coating. But there have been reports of variability.

4: I consider it more annoyance than interference. That said I would probably be wary of the Dell U2711 as it has a typical coating and one of the smallest pixel pitches on the market. Sparkle tends to be more annoying the closer you sit and with the smallest pitch on the U2711, you will have tendency to sit closer.

Some macro shots of my screens.

My NEC 2490, AT-W monitor coating (not as strong as most LG screens). Here I have piece of packing tape that fills in the rough AG coating to all you to see the pixel structure clearly. The blurry pixels are where there is no packing tape. But again this blurriness is at near microscopic level:

pixeltape.jpg


My MVA (AU optronics) TV panel with a very light coating. It is not a reflective screen, but very light AG:
pixelstructau9.jpg
 
Hmm.

I have one Dell U3011 and one Dell 2007FP both with IPS panels.

I heard some reviews speak about hard AG coatings on the U3011 before I bought it, but I never noticed anything at all on either of my two monitors.

I haven't noticed any blurriness either...
 
PA246Q here. I see mine only occasionally and as like a tiny bit of dust on the white parts of screen.
 
I think most people will find that, whilst there are varying degrees of AG coating, ie: some are more aggressive than others, most people will find that the image quality given by any IPS panel will be more subject to the pixel pitch (size) and how that interacts with the AG coating.

I have a U2711. When using my samsung 223bw? the AG coating wasn't that noticeable, because of the differing contrast levels, but most significantly, the pixel pitch.

The 223BW had a pixel pitch of (point)282 - a 22 inch monitor. It exhibited only slight white sparking compared to my U2711. On a monitor with a very small pixel pitch like the U2711, the pixel pitch is (point) 233. So, when you have a very aggressive AG coating, (very course or rough) there is a greater level of masking, or opportunity for the AG coating to refract the light emitted by an individual pixel. - hence the sparking effect.

So, my guess, is that you will notice more of a sparkle effect from monitors with a really small pixel pitch - hence laptops being particularly prone to the sparkle effect because of their often very small pixel pitch.

A good test (please some one follow this up somehow) would be to measure or rate the sparkling effect exhibited by monitors with different pixel pitch (but all with AG coating regardless of the aggressiveness of the AG coating).

The sparkle effect on my U2711 is quite noticeable. I don't know how I am going to put up with it. I may attempt the AG Coating mod at Overclockers AU

Or the COMPREHENSIVE AG HOW TO over at LumenLab. .

I like the looks of the polish method to leave the AG coating intact but to reduce its relative roughness so as to minimize the sparkle a little.

The big danger with all AG mods is the risk to the Polarizer underneath. Many people have successfully removed the AG film from their monitors but at at later stage have found that the Polarizer degrades to a level where it cracks or splits thus letting different amounts of light through and thus reducing the quality of the image.

Still, its worth looking at. The pixel pitch on the U2711 should have required the use of a less aggressive (smoother) AG coating, and not the same coating as is used on all other Dell monitors.

Its the pixel pitch that dictates the sparkle effect you will get from the AG coating.

Please correct me if incorrect. I would like to fix the AG coating on my U2711.
 
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