Desperate search for blacker black levels.

[Lifelike Person]

I have a problem, and the people on this message board are quite helpful so I thought I would give it a shot.

I'm really interested (or maybe obsessed is the right word) in finding an LCD monitor, preferably 24”, under $500, good response (maybe under 10ms), that displays the best black. I currently have the 24” soyo (DYLM24D6), but alas, here in Canada it does seem true that its panel is not P-MVA but has been replaced by a TN.
Although I do find its picture to be quite pleasing, with absolutely no backlight bleed, its idea of black is horrendous at best.

I also owned the acer (P243WBD) and it was quite impressively bright, but on solid black, it was like watching the northern lights, and moving from side to side made the show really pick up. I think the poor guy was a hemophiliac.

Sorry for rambling, there do seem to be a few people with this common goal, I just really wanted to start a thread to get some good advice, and this seemed like an excellent place.

Now I know that absolute black is not a possibility with current LCD technology, especially for a measly $500, but my plan is as follows; in the pursuit of black blacks, I will try and find the monitor most capable, and I'm going to apply window tinting to a pane of glass and create some sort of screen filter, these newer LCD displays can be so incredibly bright that I don’t mind losing up to 40% of its brightness as long as the black looks black, I know it’s ridiculous and its probably quite the tradeoff and just stupid in general, but tests I've done really drastically reduce the ‘black as gray’ effect. God I'm a loser.

Any help with pictures of monitors displaying solid black (sans dynamic contrast), good advice, links to reviews that talk about black levels or measure the black level are greatly appreciated. Please for the love of god help me, I'm so very close to bringing a blanket and draping it over me and the monitor at best buy, and I don’t want to be arrested for being weird. I'm also just wondering if the mionitor I'm using is as good at blacks as LCDs get, in that case I may as well just keep the thing considering how cheap it was.

I know that CRTs would seem like the obvious option here, but my desk would shatter under the weight of a 24” widescreen. Plus I'm bored and I find this kind of enjoyable for some reason. I'm not worried much about 6bit or 8bit, connections, failure rates, whatever - just nice even black blacks.

Another quick question; do the better viewing angles of non-TN panels reduce that ‘shiny’ blacks and grays effect of LCD displays? Do they look 'shiny' because the contrast shifts so rapidly with head movement?


Thanks a lot for reading, I really do appreciate it. I just hope someone can help.

 

[E.T]

Another quick question; do the better viewing angles of non-TN panels reduce that ‘shiny’ blacks and grays effect of LCD displays? Do they look 'shiny' because the contrast shifts so rapidly with head movement?

Let me guess... you've noticed that for getting uniform colours out of TN you have to look it from slightly above center which, while giving more even colours across screen in vertical direction, makes black look greyish/silver very easily?
And cheap TNs have apparently much more variation and worser backlight bleed than more expensive VA/IPS based monitors. (which is logical considering price differences)
Like this "black" of Benq FP222W (bright pixels are in camera's CCD) which apparently has same built in northern lights as your Acer.

Also some monitors have too bright backlight with no/too small adjustment range which easily destroys black.
Does image of your Soyo go dark like in two TNs of this comparison when looked below center? If not then panel is still same and it could be this "feature" causing the trouble.


For your budget Eizo S2231W could just fit in:
http://proadviser.de/en/news/shownews_tft1310.html

But you probably want 1920x1200 resolution so about same price Lenovo L220x could be better option. Here in Finland one user coming from CRT first tried two different TNs, which lacked viewing angles, and one 24" cheap brand P-MVA which had practically non adjustable too bright backlight before ending to Lenovo whose black he commented to be as good looking in dark room than that El Cheapo in normally lighted room.
http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/board/message?board.id=Thinkvision&thread.id=2
http://www.computerworld.com/action...ewArticleBasic&articleId=9056059&pageNumber=2
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/67909965/m/670001089831
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1267220

Now I know that absolute black is not a possibility with current LCD technology, especially for a measly $500

Non-black black is feature/property of LCD technology and nothing solves it except getting rid of that leaking backlight and slow response time liquid crystals.
It's just that it probably takes annoying many years before OLED/SED monitors are available for resonable price. Both of these technologies are real mature flat technologies and have CRT like response time and contrast.

 

[Toompra]

Yeah I doubt you will find what you want. I went on a quest very similar to yours and tried tons of LCD's but could not find anything with good enough blacks.

Perhaps you should look at some LCD televisions? I doubt most of them would work well as a monitor but if you want the best possible blacks from LCD tech you will only find it with the TV's. We recently bought a Samsung LNT-4061 mainly because it had the best blacks of any TV in the store except for a couple plasmas, the blacks aren't BLACK black but still miles above any LCD monitor I've seen thats for sure.

Another option would be to get a glossy screen LCD monitor and keep the lights on all the time lol. My dad uses an old 19" Sony with a glossy screen and the blacks look fabulous when theres a light on in the room, but once it goes off the backlight becomes a grey mess like most matte screen LCD's.

But seriously, you sound just as picky as I am (probably more) so I REALLY think you should try to stick with CRT's like I decided to do. Buy yourself a new desk (lots of nice strurdy ones on craigslist for cheap) or reinforce the one you currently have.

 

[Lifelike Person]

you've noticed that for getting uniform colours out of TN you have to look it from slightly above center

Does image of your Soyo go dark like in two TNs of this comparison when looked below center? If not then panel is still same and it could be this "feature" causing the trouble.

Hmm... thats interesting, my colors do not invert like the TN examples in your excellent link when looked at from below at sharp angles, and the colors are quite uniform. Could this mean that my panel isn't TN? I just excpected too much from M-PVA? It says 3ms response time on the box and the contrast shifts wildly so I assumed that it was a TN.

Also some monitors have too bright backlight with no/too small adjustment range which easily destroys black.

The thing only has brightness and contrast that when turned to zero still reveal a clearly visible picture, so I'm guessing you're right about that.

According to the reviewer of the Lenovo L220x you speak of "Pure black is so dark that it almost looks like the panel is turned off in that area" Wow, that sounds Incredably promising. Do you have any first hand experience with this display?

I also like this Eizo S2231 you speak of, if it delivers on the blacks then losing the two inches could be worth it. Are 22" monitors better for black levels? Because those both sound good.

if you want the best possible blacks from LCD tech you will only find it with the TV's

Do any LCD tv's have 1920x1200 at 24"? Why is it that tv's can produce better blacks? Is is some technology that dosent work well for monitors? Im gonna look into that but I doubt I'll find any for under 500 bucks.

Another option would be to get a glossy screen LCD monitor and keep the lights on all the time

I did this exact thing for the first while I had my glossy monitor!

I REALLY think you should try to stick with CRT's like I decided to do

I'm just not sure how possible finding a 24 incher would be, if you can find me one and get the giant bastard shipped for cheap, I'm in.

I really appreciate the help from both. Thanks for putting in the effort, it's nice to know i'm not alone in this weird obsession.

 

[Lifelike Person]

This is my monitor displaying black, with contrast and brightness at optimum.
Is this average, or horrible? its very, very slightly better than this, but pretty close. Please tell me this is terrible and I can hope for much better.
This is as black as it gets, no matter the settings.

 

[TheArTcher]

The blackest blacks I've ever seen on a monitor/TV were on the Samsung 4066 LCD TV. It has a glossy screen and a PVA panel. It was dramatically darker than any other screen in BB. In a dark room the difference might not be so pronounced.

 

[SonComet]

In a dark room the glossy lcds don't have blacker blacks than any other equivalent lcd. For example, the samsung 71 series isn't any better at producing black in a dark room than the sony xbr4 series is.

 

[Lifelike Person]

Thanks for the replys, I'll check out the Samsung 4066, but 40" might be a little large for my desk.

In a dark room the glossy lcds don't have blacker blacks than any other equivalent lcd.

Interesting, so the blacker looking glossies in the store just look that way because of the lighting? That's great to know! It sure seems like LCDs were designed for offices and retail stores, and not so much for watching movies or playing splinter cell.

I remember when some CRTs came out with dark tinted glass to produce better blacks and it worked quite admirably, I wonder why LCDs don't do the same? That’s probably a ridiculous question.

Thanks again for the replys.

 

[daveswantek]

This is my monitor displaying black, with contrast and brightness at optimum.
Is this average, or horrible? its very, very slightly better than this, but pretty close. Please tell me this is terrible and I can hope for much better.
This is as black as it gets, no matter the settings.

That looks horrible to me. The blackest blacks available in a computer monitor can be found in the Samsung 275T.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1280169

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1233697&highlight=275t

Samsung PVA pannels have very good black levels. They still have some leakage, but it is uniform across the screen and much better then the pic you posted. Sense the 275t is out of your price range; you may want to look into the 245t or the Dell 2408WFP.

Some people complain about input lag with PVA screens, but you can not have everything in one display.

Best of luck

Dave

 

[MisterSparkle]

We're talking so black, that it looks like a gaping void into nothingness

 

[Lifelike Person]

That looks horrible to me.

That's what I thought. I'm definitely taking it back now.

The blackest blacks available in a computer monitor can be found in the Samsung 275T.

How do you know that? Are there some pics somewhere I can check that out? How black are we talking? like half of the pic I posted? Less? I'll definitely look into those. Much appreciated. I'm wondering if maybe its worth spending a grand so I can stop obsessing.

We're talking so black, that it looks like a gaping void into nothingness

Yeah, thats exactly what I'm talking about! My blacks can be cut in half without any drastic loss of brightness if I just hold some tinted glass in front of it. So if I could find a display just as bright or brighter with twice the black level, I'd get truly black blacks when it was tinted, even 90% black would be amazing, and I'd be the happiest guy around.

 

[MisterSparkle]

I have to admit I'm a fan of the black blacks too. While my LG L226WTQ-BF has decent blacks with a very even backlight, it's not really black. I'll ask people "Does this look black to you?" they always respond "Yeah", then I turn the monitor off and say "How about now?" to which they respond "Ahh, that's blacker".

 

[Lifelike Person]

I have to admit I'm a fan of the black blacks too. While my LG L226WTQ-BF has decent blacks with a very even backlight, it's not really black. I'll ask people "Does this look black to you?" they always respond "Yeah", then I turn the monitor off and say "How about now?" to which they respond "Ahh, that's blacker".

Yeah exactly, like when I'm looking on these forums, the outer edge looks black. If there's more light than dark the blacks look black, but when a 70%, 80%, black image hits you, It's like "Damn! it's silver, I never thought a black screen could sort of light up a room".

 

[vick1000]

NEC 20WMGX2 has the darkest blacks I have seen in a non VA panel, very close to VA without the crush, so dark content is actually decernable. The only other display I have seen that can match VA panels and do it without crush is the Sharp Aquos ASV panels ($1K+ easy).

VAs are great for blacks, but all you see is black until you get to about 30/30/30 sometimes worse, you might as well just turn down the brightness on whatever you have.

 

[Scyles]

This is my monitor displaying black, with contrast and brightness at optimum.

That's not a TN panel. A TN panel would have the backlight bleeding along the top and bottom rather than the sides.

 

[E.T]

Do any LCD tv's have 1920x1200 at 24"? Why is it that tv's can produce better blacks? Is is some technology that dosent work well for monitors?

None of the TVs have higher than vertically shallow 1920x1080 resolution.
Also I suspect they use dynamic fraud, err contrast which lowers backlight brightness when picture contains dark shades but doesn't work when there's any brighter colours in picture causing either white look dirty greyish or then dark parts brighten with backlight. (and it causes brightness to pump up and down which might be annoying effect)

How do you know that? Are there some pics somewhere I can check that out?

Measurements are better than pics (which work for comparing flatness of backlight bleed) because there aren't variables like exposure and monitor brightness setting, Samsung 275T looks to be on same level as that Eizo:
http://www.proadviser.de/en/monitore/review/2007/review-samsung-275t-part7.html

display just as bright

Brightness isn't problem with LCDs, practically all of them are capable to "eyeballs are smoking in their sockets" (that's quote from him who tried that 24" cheap monitor before Lenovo) level of brightness when set to full brightness... or without enough adjustment.
High real (non dynamic) contrast and big enough backlight adjustment range are what's needed for ability to show good black and white at the same time.

 

[Lifelike Person]

NEC 20WMGX2 has the darkest blacks I have seen in a non VA panel, very close to VA without the crush, so dark content is actually decernable. The only other display I have seen that can match VA panels and do it without crush is the Sharp Aquos ASV panels ($1K+ easy).
VAs are great for blacks, but all you see is black until you get to about 30/30/30 sometimes worse, you might as well just turn down the brightness on whatever you have.

Thats really interesting, so VAs do blacks but at the cost of detail, so it's kind of a cheating tradeoff? Does Sharp Aquos make any 24" displays? Or are they mailny into making tv's? The NEC 20WMGX2 does seem nice but its a little small at 20", do they make any equivellent 24" models? Ive heard nothing but good things about NEC but they may be out of my pricerange.

That's not a TN panel. A TN panel would have the backlight bleeding along the top and bottom rather than the sides.

Really? Because I did think it was amazinly even for a TN panel, what is seen in the picture isn't backlight bleed at all, its just the shifting contrast from the cameras wide veiwing angle.

Here is a better picture of my black problem, the backlight does seem very uniform to me, this was taken at about five feet away as opposed to one for the first. Do all TNs have backlight bleed? Because I don't think that I have any. -

None of the TVs have higher than vertically shallow 1920x1080 resolution.
Also I suspect they use dynamic fraud, err contrast which lowers backlight brightness when picture contains dark shades but doesn't work when there's any brighter colours in picture causing either white look dirty greyish or then dark parts brighten with backlight. (and it causes brightness to pump up and down which might be annoying effect)

So you don't think tv's are any better than monitors? Just that dynamic contrast thing.

http://www.proadviser.de/en/monitore...75t-part7.html

Excellent, thanks for the link.

Brightness isn't problem with LCDs, practically all of them are capable to "eyeballs are smoking in their sockets" (that's quote from him who tried that 24" cheap monitor before Lenovo) level of brightness when set to full brightness... or without enough adjustment.
High real (non dynamic) contrast and big enough backlight adjustment range are what's needed for ability to show good black and white at the same time.

Yeah, the amazing brightness is what makes tinting the screen a possibility, it seems to me that lcds fail at blacks so they try and make up for it in other areas. eg. insane brightness, which just leads to worse black.

 

[Dunan]

if you want the blackest of blacks, forget going for an LCD because you'll never get it.

thats just the way it is

the only monitor or tv that will display perfect blacks are CRT's.

[/end thread]

 

[Lifelike Person]

if you want the blackest of blacks, forget going for an LCD because you'll never get it.

thats just the way it is

the only monitor or tv that will display perfect blacks are CRT's.

[/end thread]

I understand that LCDs are incomparable to CRTs, what I'm looking for is the blackest blacks on an LCD. Everytime it seems like someone asks about good black levels they get the same response and its like "case closed, never gonna' happen".

I bet you someone out there knows something more and I'm just curious to learn anything more about this topic. I've given up looking for a perfectly black LCD, but I still quite desire a darker black that the one I currently have. Technology changes so rapidly and new monitors and screens are being created all the time, I'm sure there's a few displays that youve never seen.

I have to use a monitor everyday, and I just want to know the one most suiting to me. Its not as if all LCDs display black the exact same, so I'm just curious about peoples experiences with finding a good black level.

I don't need the blackest of blacks, I just want something more than what I already have, and this forum seemed like an excellent place to start.

 

[vick1000]

The Sharp models that use ASV are all 26" or above. The 26" is discontinued and only 720p, so not good for PC use anyway. The 32" 1080p models are all over $1K.

NEC makes the 24" LCD2490wuxi , an H-IPS model, but I don't think the blacks are as dark as the 20", because the 20" has Opticlear coating. I have not seen them side by side, but I would say the 24" is close though because it does have a polarizer to stop the IPS "glare". Again though, the 24" will run you around $1K.

 

[Stanley Pain]

I found that my NEC2690 produces some of the best blacks of any LCD I've used, or seen.

In the price range you're looking at, I'd have to say good luck, because you're not going to find anything great (or good for that matter).

Not sure about the NECxx70 series, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have good to great blacks as well.

 

[E.T]

The NEC 20WMGX2 does seem nice but its a little small at 20", do they make any equivellent 24" models? Ive heard nothing but good things about NEC but they may be out of my pricerange.

NEC's 24" IPS is out of your budget, unless you double it and add some more.

I'm myself in quite same situation as you, current Samsung 959NF CRT is showing signs of failing and preferred budget is about 500 euros meaning over 700 USDs (already more than what I paid for that Samsung) and I want 1200 vertical resolution, good enough black and overall performance for games and movies and acceptable viewing angles: After using CRTs for 15 years I can't understand how anyone not blind can tolerate TNs lack of vertical viewing angle in continuous use!
Sure IPS can have better colours but pricing and availability are both very bad. Also there's surely big differences between VA-panels in gamma shift of darkest colours, for example if it's that bad inherent problem of VA panels as some here claim why is Eizo using S-PVAs in their professional CG-line of monitors? Neither is IPS good in everything:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/hazro_hz24w.htm: Black depth was only average, but this is a draw back of using S-IPS panel technology really.
(black level around 40cd/m2... vs. little above 10cd/m2 of S-PVA Eizo and Samsung)
So like someone here said all LCDs suck.
Consideringvery reasonable price vs. features/performance that Lenovo is very good compromise for me especially considering its input lag of ~30ms is quite good among current trend of rising lag of non TNs: near 50ms for Dell 2408WFP and ~60ms for Samsung 245T. Neither is dark colour gamma shift mentioned as problem in this review of Lenovo by graphic designer/photographer. Also user I mentioned in first reply haven't found it to be problem in darkish coloured games like COD4. (that cheap brand 24" P-MVA he tried had nearly zero lag but black/dark colours being greyish mess was unacceptable)

So you don't think tv's are any better than monitors? Just that dynamic contrast thing.

Plasma displays have high real contrast and near CRT like black (and even worser power consumption than CRTs) but all LCDs, no matter what's advertised are unable to produce perfect black because of LCD's basic structure...
Unless backlight fails like happened in two days for one buyer of that 24" cheap brand P-MVA, which sure fixed problem of grey black but other colours suffered little too much.
S-PVAs have best contrast ratios (difference between brightness of black and white) of LCDs varying from 1200:1 to 1500:1. So any LCD advertised with contrast ratio of 2000:1 or higher is deceit.

Also as general rule it would be good to avoid very bright monitors:

Eizo advertises the brightness of the S2231W as 250 cd/m². In fact, at 100 % brightness, we measured a value of 236 cd/m²...
Fundamentally, the brightness values should be sufficient for any user. The brightness level of 140 cd/m² that we recommend is achieved at a brightness value of 54 %. This means that sufficient reserve is still left for increasing the brightness further. The possibility of reducing the brightness to 30 cd/m² without reducing the RGB colour values is also a praiseworthy exception. Often, monitors are advertised with specifications of over 400 cd/m². However, the fact that these models still have a brightness level in excess of 150 cd/m² even when brightness is set at 0% is glossed over. In order to achieve values of 140 or even 120 cd/m², the only option with these models is to reduce the RGB colour values. However, an undesirable side-effect here is that colours are discarded.
http://proadviser.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-eizo-s2231w-part8.html#Image

(brightness adjustment in graphic card's control panel probably does it exactly by reducing RGB values)

 

[daveswantek]

Another quick question; do the better viewing angles of non-TN panels reduce that ‘shiny’ blacks and grays effect of LCD displays? Do they look 'shiny' because the contrast shifts so rapidly with head movement?

TNs are the worst at everything, except input lag. S-PVAs are usually the best at black levels and the worst input lag. S-IPS have the best viewing angles, less input lag, and OK black levels, usually not as good as S-PVA.

There are two things I can tell you from the input you have provided. First and most important; you are not going to find what you are looking for in any LCD pannel, and second you are starting from a bad reference point. Your current LCD is so-so at best. Yes you can do better, but at a much higher price and still not what you are really looking for.

The only current tech. that can do blacks as well as a CRT are Plasma pannels and they are not good for computer displays due to image retention.

Go to any Best Buy, Circuit City, Fry's and check out what they have on display. That will give you a better frame of reference and validate what has been posted here.

Best of luck

Dave

 

[Scyles]

This is what TN panel backlights look like: http://www.flyingeagle.com.sg/Samsung 730B problem.JPG

Always bleeding on the top and bottom. You've got an S-PVA or a P-MVA. There's always an annoying dark spot in the middle. People say these panels have the best black levels, but it is only because of that terrible black spot that causes crushed blacks.

 

[Snowdog]

Sure IPS can have better colours but pricing and availability are both very bad. Also there's surely big differences between VA-panels in gamma shift of darkest colours, for example if it's that bad inherent problem of VA panels as some here claim why is Eizo using S-PVAs in their professional CG-line of monitors? Neither is IPS good in everything

Decent summary of things, but I would like to add a bit more. PVA really only has better black level because of their odd angular gamma shift, which gives you the darkest view straight on central spot. Which is great for a measurement sensor. Not so great if you actually like to have a consistent view of the shadows. I would pay a lot more and be quite happy to have a slightly worse dark value that was stable (IPS). Here is an example of a PVA panel playing peekaboo with the shadow detail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03gVDMG7AMg

As far as your other question about how someone could stand using a TN screen with its vertical viewing angle shift. I got rid of my PVA with its pronounced horizontal shift and like the TN with vertical shift much more. Horizontal shift is much more distracting/annoying/headache inducing. Your eyes are arranged horizontally, on PVA screens I used there was enough shift just between right and left eyes to cause odd false 3d headache inducing effect.

TN that I replaced it with doesn't bother me at all, unless I pivot it into portrain mode then the vertical shift becomes a horizontal shift and it becomes crap just like PVA.

IPS>TN>VA is my rule.

Now as to getting decent black. They all suck. I have had a PVA and TN sitting next to my CRT. Watching moves in a dark room the black bars are invisible on my CRT, they are absolute black. With either LCD they grey and when scenes flipped to pure black, it was absurd how much light they still threw off, with a "black" screen lighting up the whole room.

 

[Dunan]

I understand that LCDs are incomparable to CRTs, what I'm looking for is the blackest blacks on an LCD. Everytime it seems like someone asks about good black levels they get the same response and its like "case closed, never gonna' happen".

I bet you someone out there knows something more and I'm just curious to learn anything more about this topic. I've given up looking for a perfectly black LCD, but I still quite desire a darker black that the one I currently have. Technology changes so rapidly and new monitors and screens are being created all the time, I'm sure there's a few displays that youve never seen.

I have to use a monitor everyday, and I just want to know the one most suiting to me. Its not as if all LCDs display black the exact same, so I'm just curious about peoples experiences with finding a good black level.

I don't need the blackest of blacks, I just want something more than what I already have, and this forum seemed like an excellent place to start.

no but panel types do. it doesnt matter on the maker, usually. i say usually because my NEC i have has much better black levels than the benq in my sig at a lower contrast ratio.
NEC pro line of lcd's give excellent blacks btw, with a colormeter and software.
the NEC in my sig gives he best blacks i've seen on any lcd, mainly because of the shadow detail in the blacks. thats where it really counts, not just the ability to display black itself. thanks to the spectraview software. that makes a huge difference.

 

[Stanley Pain]

no but panel types do. it doesnt matter on the maker, usually. i say usually because my NEC i have has much better black levels than the benq in my sig at a lower contrast ratio.
NEC pro line of lcd's give excellent blacks btw.
the NEC in my sig gives he best blacks i've seen on any lcd, mainly because of the shadow detail in the blacks. thats where it really counts, not just the ability to display black itself.

I hug my 2690WUXi everyday. How about you? (well your 2490 in anycase).

 

[E.T]

no but panel types do. it doesnt matter on the maker, usually. i say usually because my NEC i have has much better black levels than the benq in my sig at a lower contrast ratio

I don't wonder if FP241W is unable to show anything resembling black:
Brightness: 500cd/m2
http://www.benq-eu.com/products/LCD/?product=636&page=specifications
There are many ways for makers to screw up LCD monitor!

Go to any Best Buy, Circuit City, Fry's and check out what they have on display. That will give you a better frame of reference and validate what has been posted here.

Conditions in most shops are like tailor made for hiding differences between monitors: Very bright illumination, oversaturated advertising videos shown in center of monitor etc.
I don't think they'll let you switch off the lights, start adjusting brightness/contrast settings of monitors and looking own comparison photos, in US you would probably find yourself from the back seat of police car fast.

 

[Justintoxicated]

try adding some bright white backlight behind your monitor it might trick your eyes a bit

 

[10e]

The BenQ G2400W.

The blacks are far better than what you show. It is a TN panel, but the backlight is uniform and doesn't seem to bleed, and it is a superfast panel as well.

Regards,

10e

 

[Lifelike Person]

Man, so many great replies.

I dont know where to start. I'm hearing a lot of good things about NEC, they seem expensive but it seems like to get decent blacks I may have to go that way. S-PVAs seem like my best bet for blacks but the input lag makes playing games on them undesireable. Hmmm... I guess screw my budget.

I guess plasma's out of the question. I should try and avoid really bright displays because that only adds to the problem. 500 nits does seem a little much.

Yes you can do better, but at a much higher price and still not what you are really looking for.

that seems to be the general consensu.

Unless backlight fails like happened in two days for one buyer of that 24" cheap brand P-MVA, which sure fixed problem of grey black but other colours suffered little too much.

You've got an S-PVA or a P-MVA. There's always an annoying dark spot in the middle. People say these panels have the best black levels, but it is only because of that terrible black spot that causes crushed blacks.

I guess its cool that I got the P-MVA panel some rave about, but the black only in the middle is quite true. Are there any MVAs that don't suffer from contrast shifting like this?

I got rid of my PVA with its pronounced horizontal shift and like the TN with vertical shift much more.

Thats interesting, I'll have to look into that.

the NEC in my sig gives he best blacks i've seen on any lcd, mainly because of the shadow detail in the blacks. thats where it really counts, not just the ability to display black itself. thanks to the spectraview software. that makes a huge difference.

My display really does have good shadow detail, does the nec you mention have the shifting contrast problem taht makes things look shiny? I'll definitely check that display out, much thanks.

2690WUXi

Hmmm... $1300, only a thousand more than what i paid for mine.

NEC 2490

Only 700 more... which of these is a better display? Or is one just bigger?

I don't think they'll let you switch off the lights, start adjusting brightness/contrast settings of monitors and looking own comparison photos, in US you would probably find yourself from the back seat of police car fast.

It may be worth it.

try adding some bright white backlight behind your monitor it might trick your eyes a bit

Very true, with the lights on i've got no problems, although it kind of kills the atmosphere in movies.

The BenQ G2400W.

The blacks are far better than what you show. It is a TN panel, but the backlight is uniform and doesn't seem to bleed, and it is a superfast panel as well.

Sweet I'll check that one out, I her Benq (however you pronounce it) makes some nice TN displays. and I really do like the fast response time.

Thanks again for all the input, except now I have more questions than ever.

 

[Dainas]

I guess its cool that I got the P-MVA panel some rave about, but the black only in the middle is quite true. Are there any MVAs that don't suffer from contrast shifting like this?

They all do it technically, but I have to believe things have improved allot in the past years. Mainly as I cannot make my either monitors do anything 1/10th as bad as the youtube postings showing VA gamma shift! But still make sure you look at what you are buying first, if one can even buy a VA panel that crappy anymore.

As for blacks, my P-MVA L245WP(oct 2007) definitely hits much more even and darker darks than my S-PVA (dell 2407 a03 oct2006).. but newer S-PVAs are supposedly improved there as well.

 

[vick1000]

They all do it technically, but I have to believe things have improved allot in the past years. Mainly as I cannot make my either monitors do anything 1/10th as bad as the youtube postings showing VA gamma shift! But still make sure you look at what you are buying first, if one can even buy a VA panel that crappy anymore.

As for blacks, my P-MVA L245WP(oct 2007) definitely hits much more even and darker darks than my S-PVA (dell 2407 a03 oct2006).. but newer S-PVAs are supposedly improved there as well.

No, VA has not changed, and it can't really, because of the way the crystals are aligned they allow light to get through from the sides (except the ASVs from Sharp which have a flower shaped crystal alignment).

 

[Dainas]

(Not that I said VA panels changed in principle to begin with)Then It must be a matter of poorer black and contrast levels on older VAs exaggerating the problem because they all sure do not look the same. Newers onces shift the same way, just not as eye stabbing bad.

 

[vick1000]

(Not that I said VA panels changed in principle to begin with)Then It must be a matter of poorer black and contrast levels on older VAs exaggerating the problem because they all sure do not look the same. Newers onces shift the same way, just not as eye stabbing bad.

Better back lights and film uniformity is all, but that's true of every panel type.

The shift is there and just as prominent, create a simple checkerboard pattern with 0/0/0 and 20/20/20, then look at it from the side.

 

[Stanley Pain]

Man, so many great replies.

Hmmm... $1300, only a thousand more than what i paid for mine.

Only 700 more... which of these is a better display? Or is one just bigger?

Yup, the 2490 is the 24 inch and the 2690 is the 26 inch. You might look into the NEC 2470WUXi. It's a lot cheaper, still uses a really good panel and should produce some nice blacks. Check out the thread in this forum. Wouldn't hurt to ask some people who have it what their blacks are like .

And yes, I'm a really huge fan of NEC LCDs

 

[gtg465x]

Better back lights and film uniformity is all, but that's true of every panel type.

The shift is there and just as prominent, create a simple checkerboard pattern with 0/0/0 and 20/20/20, then look at it from the side.

Yup... some shift is there... but it's certainly not as bad as that Youtube video.

 

[mathesar]

LCD technology itself prevents a deep black, even the latest LED based Samsung 81 series LCDs show weaker blacks in a dark room.. It's a shame really but I found a solution in the form of a 50" Kuro plasma I have it connected as a secondary monitor via DVI>HDMI and its beautiful with CRT quality black levels. Ill have to take some pics but for now this is my CRT and LCD side by side in a dark room:

Left: 24" Sony GDM-FW900 CRT / Right: 20.1" NEC 20WMGX2 LCD with 1600:1 contrast ratio

 

[Snowdog]

Yup... some shift is there... but it's certainly not as bad as that Youtube video.

The youtube video is of a 2407-HC which is hardly an old monitor. Here is another example. How bad the shift is, depends on the subject matter, how much it annoys you is a personal subjective issue. It drives me nuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnaMex2FUo

Or this one comparing IPS and PVA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91jDXHj1fN4


Personally I would rather have consistent blacks that are slightly less dark, that ones that shift like this.

Frankly these S-PVA monitors are the LAST thing I would buy. They have the worse input lags, the most strange overdrive artifacts and this gamma shift. Go read the the Dell 2408 thread, it sounds like it has more problems than the 2407-hc in almost every area.

 

[Dunan]

I hug my 2690WUXi everyday. How about you? (well your 2490 in anycase).

hell ya i do

i'm quite impressed with the black levels in mine.

i can say though they probably wouldnt be as good without the spectraview software though.
it made a huge difference from the default display out of the box.

kudos to NEC