Dell U3014 unusable for motion?

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11
tftcentral said:
Unfortunately if we evaluate the Response Time Compensation (RTC) overshoot then the results are not pleasing. ...

While it may be speeding up the pixel transitions it is causing a large degree of overshoot. For the changes to 200 the average RTC overshoot was a massive 42.9% which was not very good at all and represented a significant issue.

In practice this results in an obvious trailing image on certain transitions which could prove distracting. This was worse than we'd seen from the U2713H and U2413 as well where the RTC error was not as extreme, but still pretty significant.

In fact there was a huge error of 57.4% with the change from 255 - 200 which was very severe, as shown above with the overshoot after the fall time.

We can conclude that the response times of the U3014 are pretty good, but the RTC overshoot may prove problematic to some users. This will be particularly noticeable in transitions from dark to light shades in practice and it seems Dell have been too aggressive with their overdrive impulse in trying to cut back pixel rise times and this has resulted in some quite problematic overshoot.

For reference this was a very similar picture to what we saw with the 27" U2713H and 24" U2413 which shows similar pixel response times, and high levels of overshoot in transitions from dark to light shades, so it seems they've had the same problems with all three of the new models. It's a shame there is no option to disable the overdrive impulse on these new screens really to eliminate any issues users might experience.
Static (U2413)

Motion




http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/peripherals/f/3529.aspx

layte said:
As noted in the TFTCentral review: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u3014.htm this display suffers from horrific overshoot in certain situations. I have only owned my 3014 since last week and now it is all I can notice when moving the mouse cursor around the screen and when scrolling certain types of image, a wired negative ghosting is the best way I can describe it.

Unfortunately this is caused by Dell's overly aggressive overdrive settings which they have not seen fit to give the user any control over. I feel that unless their is a way to change or disable the overdrive on this display I am going to have no option to return it to the supplier for a refund (anyone found a way to access the service menu yet?) . I would also suggest to anybody thinking of buying this display, to think again until Dell find a way to rectify this situation.
 
Last edited:

xoleras

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
3,551
I've gamed on the u2711, u2713H/HM, and both Samsung PLS (S27A850D, S27B970D) panels. They're all identical in gaming. They're identical to 60hz TN panels as well. Response time tests by most websites are also flawed for many reasons, including running at non native resolution.

Now i've seen IPS panels that were poor for motion but those were strictly 2004-2007 model IPS panels which had horrid response times. The current dell panels are fine. Anyone stating otherwise is probably trying to start drama, spouting hyperbole, or trying to steer everyone toward a specific purchase (viewsonic VP2770 anyone)? The last monitor had terrible response time results too. But i'm sure it games just fine.
 

RadXge

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,778
I bought many high-end Dell monitors over the years and most of them were plagued with various issues that only got resolved in later revisions.
Unfortunately, most of these issues are usually missed by "professional" reviewers.

Therefore, I recommend to wait a few revisions before getting a Dell monitor. I would also suggest to monitor some of the various forums where actual owners provide information about their new monitor.

Why invest in appropriate Quality Assurance when early adopters do the job for you?
 

NCX

[H]ardness Supreme
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
6,224
Post #2 is mind boggling.

The entire Dell S series and xx14H line all have obvious overshoot issues, pretty sure the U2711 does as well as the U2412 does if the overdrive is not deactivated in the service menu (U2412 only). This is why it is nice when manufacturers include adjustable overdrive options. Asus, Samsung, liyama, Phillips, Eizo, BenQ and Viewsonic usually include at least 3 overdrive settings.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
25
I've had my U2711 for nearly three years now, and though I've been mostly happy with it, I was completely ignorant of input lag when I purchased it in 2010, and had simply never heard of RTC or the dance between pixel response and overshoot that manufacturers play (hence the adjustable overdrive options being a must-have).

Everyone's different though, and just as some people were driven up the wall by the "rainbowing" DLP rear-projection HDTVs of yesteryear, others simply don't perceive it (or can't physically see it, as in it's not a matter of being some unobservant schlub). I used the Dell S2740L (special thanks to NCX for the most excellent review, both written and recorded) for a week, and though I was forewarned about substantial and undefeatable RTC overshoot, I simply didn't notice it. Perhaps this is because my visual baseline--the U2711--has comparable overshoot, and the resultant sensory adaptation allowed me to overlook this artifact. Or, perhaps my eyes aren't able to detect this degree of overshoot, and Dell's internal testing found most people's eyes are like mine where the improved pixel response time is much more noticeable and appreciated than the overshoot is found detrimental. Is the relationship that strong? Does the reduction of RTC really re-introduce the smeary picture I now feel my U2711 has (where the RTC-laden S2740L subjectively handled motion much better by comparison)? Any thoughts from the people with monitors with adjustable RTC settings?

Back to the monitor at hand, these images do look abysmal, but if it's not substantially worse than the S2740L's aggressive overshoot, then it's still not apt to bother me. For others, it will be an icepick through the eye, but it makes me realize how important the adjustable RTC settings are since everyone's eyes work differently.
 

layte

n00b
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
1
I'm the guy with the u3014 who made the Dell Community post. Unfortunately all I've managed to get out of Dell is a link the the manual... and a DM via twitter saying I can return it for a refund if I'm not happy.

Apart from the overdrive issue I'm happy enough with the display, it is a nice upgrade from the 3008 I had before (that had surgery on its PSU). I guess I'll wait for Rev A01/02 and get it swapped out with a flimsy excuse.
 

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11
Have you seen this?
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/dell_2407wfp-hc.htm

It's from 2007, when the Dell 2407 had strange ghosting too:




The updates on that page are a relevant history lesson...

August 2007:

"It will take us awhile to reproduce and document the issue. Then, we must send it to the manufacturer to get corrective actions. This will take time. If you do not want to wait, return the monitors."

"All, Give us time. We are working this."

"Hold off on getting any replacements until I give the word."

September:

"This will take us some time. The guys in the lab on friday said they could not reproduce the issue playing WOW. I need your complete specs to know what your using."

"I am currently waiting for the official response to this issue from my Displays Product Group."

"We had success in the lab testing two 2407WFP-HCs. We forgot that a huge difference between the 2407WFP and the 2407WFP-HC was that we added the Contrast ability to both the VGA and the DVI of the 2407WFP-HC. Using the PixPerAn software Mobious showed us, we set the Brightness to default 50 and slowly moved the Contrast up/down (I cannot remember what was the best number) while running the F3 Chase Test. We greatly lessened the Ghosting. Everyone, start WOW and adjust your Brightness and Contrast accordingly. Please post your results."

But that didn't actually work.

"We have several teams investigating the issue but have yet to discover the root cause. Until we know the root cause, we cannot have a corrective action plan. The discussion about poor control of the RTC (Response Time Compensation) technology and aggressive overdrive on TFT Central is currently under investigation. You may return the monitor now or wait for us to announce our findings."

"I got an update this morning. Root cause has been found (Dell Confidential, don't ask). Next, we move into the discussion phase about what the manufacturer can do etc. Give us time."

"We HAVE found the root cause and are working towards a response and/or fix with our manufacturer. IF there is another revision, you will all be able to initiate an exchange for this new revision. All I can do is await the response from our manufacturer."

"Would it be technically possible for Dell to make available an update file that users could run themselves without having to return the monitor? (answer)* No."

"98 percent of the buyers of this monitor use it in such a way that they do not see the ghosting. We cannot even produce the ghosting playing WOW in our lab."

October:

"All, I have not received any news about a new revision in France or anywhere else."

Then the official response:

"Dell has received feedback from some customers regarding our new 2407WFP-HC monitors. The majority of this feedback has been positive but some customers have made inquiries regarding a ghosting trail behind a moving image. This effect is known as 'overdrive ghosting' and, while not typically experienced with general monitor use, it may be seen from time to time when viewing patterns on a lower greyscale background.

This 'overdrive ghosting' effect is tied to the overdrive feature of the LCD panel. The overdrive feature helps to deliver impressive picture details and quality across a wide multitude of usage models by improving the grey-to-grey response time. However, when the overdrive feature is coupled with a faster monitor response time, the potential for overdrive ghosting can occur in some viewing patterns."

In short: We recognize there is a problem with overdrive ghosting, but it won't be fixed.

"my only option are to be credited or be stuck with the monitor = * Correct."

"Are you saying that Dell are not going to release another revision with the 'feature' removed? - * Correct. We are not."
 

medavid16

n00b
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
17
I don't know why everyone has so many issues, I just got my U3014 and the only issue I had was the Smart Color option that no one told me about that I had to manually turn off. For another post, I promised I post a quick video. Keep in mind the video was shot from my iPhone 5, left my 3DMark II at work. While it's a poor video, I just thought for those interested in the claim of the "bottom 10% of the screen" having an issue, also a claim from TFTCentral, which I did not experience. I initially thought I did NOT have input lag, but after toying around with it a little bit, I do notice it but as I posted in another forum, I do used to play on a competitive level in Counter Strike, and even at that, the lag I notice would not affect my final performance, but it's tangible only at high speed precision mouse motions.

http://youtu.be/a7K_IbdkiPQ

Anyway, I'll try to post more better quality videos in the upcoming days
 
Last edited:

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/advancedcontent.htm

The trailing wouldn't be equal with all transitions. Look for situations where the pixels change from dark to light.

Try scrolling various websites and moving the cursor around in front of the different backgrounds to see if you find ones that show trails. If you find some, see if you can capture it on video so people can see how big of a deal it is.

This forum is dark, maybe with this image you can scroll this page and see something. If not, try a white web page with dark boxes.

 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
43
I also got my U3014 today via FedEx. Very impressed with this monitor, and I've owned a lot (roughly 12 or 14 in the last 3 years).

Played a couple hours of BF3 in multiplayer as well as another 2 hours of SimCity. Really didn't notice any ghosting issues, and I was looking for it the whole time after reading through these posts last night and today.

I also just tried scrolling up and down a ton in Chrome with the image of the box above without being able to reproduce any noticeable overshoot.

Really the only "issue" I saw the whole time is the fact that this monitor has the most IPS glow of any IPS or PLS monitor I've owned, but I place the blame there probably on the very light antiglare coating. Even this problem is only noticeable in dark scenes and didn't bother me much at all.

FWIW, this monitor has been spectacular for me gaming thus far, and my initial reaction after several hours of ownership is that this is by far the best monitor I've ever owned bar none, including 6 IPS/PLS, 2 120 HZ TN and several other regular TNs. I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my purchase at all, and this is by far the most expensive individual component of my build, so it is ripe for buyer's remorse.

I'm not saying that overshoot doesn't exist on the U3014, but I am saying that I was looking for it and simply didn't notice anything that distracted me the least from gaming. I'll give it a more thorough "test" when I have more time to try out a few other games in addition to the two I mentioned already.
 
Last edited:

medavid16

n00b
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
17
Second what Sasquatch said, basically I'm not contending the existence of overshoot or ghosting, but I really just don't notice it even trying hard with the scrolling of the above image. I've also tried BF3 and WOW, also word processing / Photoshop, no issues. Although I haven't owned as many monitors as 12-14, I am quite picky and do pick le creme de le creme items, this monitor probably has to be one of the best investments yet.
 

medavid16

n00b
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
17
Just tried the scrolling on the blue background, same effect. Almost barely noticeable. But I am in the medical field and I can tell you even on a normal piece of paper, if you move a highly contrasting image rapidly, monitor or piece of paper, your brain will register it as a "ghosting" image anyway.

Just imagine the last time someone took a picture of you with a flash of light, or maybe staring at a candle for a few seconds longer than turning your head. I mean just shaking my head looking at the above two images causes me to think there's a slight ghosting although I know there isn't, albeit a smoother ghosting.

Still, I'll get my 5D Mark II and record some better videos tomorrow, I'd like to investigate more myself
 

63jax

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
227
even on my Samsung 226bw (TN) i can see some trailing with those pictures, i think is normal to be a little pronounced on IPS panels.
 

cerbul

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
242
And you people keep on buying Dell and IPS panels. Ignorance is bliss i guess.
At least is an IPS. Like we have anything better...

Anyway, just put a few specifications together and you will see why people buy things like that.

1. at least 8 bit Real colors, and the R,G,B components having strong enough colors to be able to display proper colors(orange blood anyone?)
2. Glossy/Semi Glossy/Non Grainy Matte option.
3. No PWM Flickering not only at 100% brighness, cause not everyone use their monitor in very well lit room.
4. Contrast 800+ at 120 cd, cause if you got 800 at 350 cd and you use your monitor at 120 cd, then is worthless
5. IPS like viewing angles. - anything under IPS is just poor, no offence.
6. no input lag for gaming / or an option to disable scaler / osd to allow for 0 input lag.
7. no motion blur - a bit too much to ask isn't it
8. proper stand, or at least the option vor vesa mount.
9. option for tempered glass or no tempered glass if is a desire
10. No backlight bleeding
11. No image retention.
12. No dark bands
13. No defective pixels.
14. No yellow zones.(yes, many monitors have one side of the screen more yellow then the rest, usually top compared to bottom)
15. Option for ATW polarizer or simply no IPS glow at all.
16. No light uniformity problems.
And I can bet I can get more then 20 total, but I can't remember them all.



Now if you give me a monitor that meets all those requirements, then I assure you that everyone will know what to buy. And what is worse, is that most of those are DEFECTS, and many of them are defects that aren't covered by warranty. So ye, I can understand why someone can make a bad choice. Not to mention other problems that are not yet measurable, or the measurement are relative to specific things.


EDIT: And we can call this technology? ....
 

Zetc

n00b
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Messages
61
Thanks. Here's some stills touched up:





Your eyes have to be pretty sharp if you can notice the effect that is shown in the last few stills while scrolling that image quickly on the monitor!
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
43
Thanks. Here's some stills touched up:
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful up until now, but this is bordering on absurd.

The iPhone only takes videos at a max of 30 fps. YouTube only shows videos at a max of 30 fps. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Basically, this whole test is total bunk. You're taking screenshots of a 30 fps video of a computer screen running at 60 fps. OF COURSE you're going to see some sort of artifacting or overshoot/blur in the way that you're doing this because you're only looking at half the framerate that the original monitor is running at. That doesn't even take into consideration all of the processing and compression that YouTube does to make the video streamable, not to mention the iPhone's own video compression which is not fantastic at all. The only true way that someone can see overshoot and show it to the rest of us via the interwebs would be to take a high-end camera with a very fast shutter speed to take a picture of their monitor screen. None of this screenshot-of-a-video-of-a-monitor BS means anything. It's basically like you printed a copy of a picture of a copy in order to demonstrate how blurry an original picture is. This is just ridiculous.

Honestly, I'm not even sure why everyone in here is convinced that the overshoot on this monitor is so awful. You have two separate owners telling you it's not really noticeable in gaming. Anyone else in here is just speculating based on third party reviews or ownership of other monitors from Dell. It's like the owner of a Lexus ISF telling the owners of a Porsche 911 that they're convinced it doesn't handle as well as a Ferrari Enzo having driven neither car.

TL;DR is to stop speculating and being alarmist about this if you don't own this monitor or have some solid examples to show.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
43
Also, what was posted doesn't quite resemble RTC overshoot. Overshoot usually isn't the same color as the image itself, it's a halo effect in other colors. I believe what you're demonstrating is just motion blur, which again can be accounted for due to everything I mentioned above (30 fps video on YouTube, etc). Look at examples of overshoot on TFT Central using Pix Per An: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/advancedcontent.htm

For example, RTC impulse overshoot is clearly evident on my other monitor, the Asus PB278Q, which has controls over the RTC response in the OSD. If you move your mouse around a lot you see a dark mouse cursor at some points which is the RTC overshoot. So far I haven't seen that on the U3014 either.

Here is the same monitor example on the Asus on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9fmZ9lgWe8

Again, I'm not arguing that there is NO overshoot on the U3014, but that it's not nearly as bad as everyone is jumping out of their chairs to prove otherwise, especially those of you who don't own this monitor.
 

10e

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
3,383
Post #2 is mind boggling.

The entire Dell S series and xx14H line all have obvious overshoot issues, pretty sure the U2711 does as well as the U2412 does if the overdrive is not deactivated in the service menu (U2412 only). This is why it is nice when manufacturers include adjustable overdrive options. Asus, Samsung, liyama, Phillips, Eizo, BenQ and Viewsonic usually include at least 3 overdrive settings.
While I agree with the assertion that it's best to have RTC adjustments available in the OSD, the U2412M never had obvious overshoot issues. They were there on cherry-picked tests like that garbage that Digital Versus passes off as being a motion blur test, but otherwise it was no worse than the U2410, or Asus TraceFree setting at 60 on a PA248Q.

Your eyes have to be pretty sharp if you can notice the effect that is shown in the last few stills while scrolling that image quickly on the monitor!
Cameras are limited in what they can show. I like Mark Rejhon's approach with the high speed cameras. 30fps videos show nothing, and even worse, amplify any motion blur.

I agree with SasquatchTaunt on this one.

These pictures are motion blur pictures not reverse ghosting pictures.
 

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11
How do you suppose these were captured then?

http://youtu.be/DMbGMZYaKho
http://youtu.be/U9fmZ9lgWe8?t=22s
http://youtu.be/VMuvCMlRXmc

The TFT Central review used an oscilloscope system to measure the overdrive in a more objective way.



See that spike where it goes up to the top, then drops back down? That's where the artifact is. This is for a transition from dark to grey, which is where the U3014 is measured to have the highest error. That spike would show white before it drops back down to the grey it was supposed to be. It's only for a short time, maybe a millisecond, but with moving images it's happening repeatedly so it can leave trails that should be recordable.

In those stills, I don't see the overshoot effect. If we look at the test results:



Then we can see that the U3014 doesn't have error when it's darkest to lightest, so you wouldn't expect to see any. Just like the gaming video probably doesn't show much because it's more colorful than obvious dark-to-grey transitioning. It's like the racecar ghosting test, which didn't show the effect:

tftcentral said:
In practice the Dell U3014 showed fairly low levels of motion blur although some was detectable to the naked eye and picked up in these tests. There was nothing severe and no obvious ghosting which was good. In these tests we did not see any obvious overshoot problems which was interesting but this is likely to be down to the colour transitions being made in this program. The transitions are from light to dark shades with the movement of the car and we know from our oscilloscope tests that there was minimal overshoot in those circumstances.
I made an image that should make it more obvious. Try viewing it fullscreen:

http://www.abload.de/img/overshooteroqsco.png

Then scroll it slowly so the grey bar in the middle slides down the screen. You should see trails behind it. If you adjust the speed of your scrolling, you can move it up and down fast or slow to get a better sight of the overdrive error.

Based on the test results, my guess is you'll see white trails on portions of the left side of the screen. Whether it's a serious problem or not depends on how obvious it is for your specific application. If you play colorful games, it's probably not an issue. If you code with lots of scrolling of grey and black, or edit videos with dark to light transitions, then maybe it is.

It's a tool; if it does the job you need it for, then it's a good tool. But not everyone has the same requirements, and you shouldn't take it personally if some people question if a tool might not work best for their intended use. It might not even be perceptible to everyone, so some could use it for an application that another can't.
 
D

Deleted member 222586

Guest
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful up until now, but this is bordering on absurd.

The iPhone only takes videos at a max of 30 fps. YouTube only shows videos at a max of 30 fps. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Basically, this whole test is total bunk. You're taking screenshots of a 30 fps video of a computer screen running at 60 fps. OF COURSE you're going to see some sort of artifacting or overshoot/blur in the way that you're doing this because you're only looking at half the framerate that the original monitor is running at. That doesn't even take into consideration all of the processing and compression that YouTube does to make the video streamable, not to mention the iPhone's own video compression which is not fantastic at all. The only true way that someone can see overshoot and show it to the rest of us via the interwebs would be to take a high-end camera with a very fast shutter speed to take a picture of their monitor screen. None of this screenshot-of-a-video-of-a-monitor BS means anything. It's basically like you printed a copy of a picture of a copy in order to demonstrate how blurry an original picture is. This is just ridiculous.
You don't understand. A perfect monitor won't have RTC trailing, nor blurring nor nothing no matter how you photograph it, or record it, or anything. If you can picture or record such defect it is because it exists.

You'd have a point if he was talking about RTC, but he isn't. What you see is simply a slow monitor when high-contrast colors are present, no compression problem nor any other BS you are talking about.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
43
Sorry for the confusion, but I think the point point of my previous posts was unclear. I didn't say it was impossible to take video of RTC overshoot artifacts and post it on YouTube. I was taking issue with the method you, specifically, tried to use. The screenshots and video appear to only show motion blur from the 30 fps video, not overshoot. If you look at the example videos you posted, they obviously show overshoot during motion on other monitors, something that the video medavid16 was nice enough to post didn't show (same with the other U3014 video he posted in another thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7K_IbdkiPQ).

Yes, TFT Central's excellent review demonstrates overshoot using an oscilloscope on this monitor. Again, I'm not arguing with the fact that this monitor probably does have some overshoot, but I AM answering the basic question this thread title asks, "Dell U3014 unusable for motion?" My answer is that this monitor is great for gaming thus far and has no obvious overshoot that has distracted me from my gaming. I'm not arguing with the fact that it exists or not.

I'll give the new grayscale image you loaded a try when I get home from work to see if I can get any demonstrable overshoot for you. However, in the meantime, I would strongly argue that from my own personal experiences this monitor is just fine for motion gaming. Does it match a good 120 hz monitor with no motion blur? Definitely not, but I've owned 2 of those in the past and would never buy another TN again after living with IPS/PLS monitors for the last year.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
43
You don't understand. A perfect monitor won't have RTC trailing, nor blurring nor nothing no matter how you photograph it, or record it, or anything. If you can picture or record such defect it is because it exists.

You'd have a point if he was talking about RTC, but he isn't. What you see is simply a slow monitor when high-contrast colors are present, no compression problem nor any other BS you are talking about.
But he's referring to RTC overshoot specifically, that's the whole point of his thread (unless I misunderstand the point you're making, feel free to correct me.)

I guess I'm confused as to what you're saying. He took screenshots of a 30 fps video, while the monitor refresh on the desktop is at 60 fps. The screenshots he was claiming are RTC overshoot are just bad screenshots that exaggerate motion blur because they're NOT photographs of the original source taken with a very fast exposure camera. This is even more exaggerated by the fact that it was 60 fps Dell U3014 --> 30 fps iPhone --> 30 fps YouTube --> ?? fps (his monitor) --> screenshot. The motion blur his pictures show aren't overshoot, which is what he was claiming they are.

As far as IPS monitors go, this has a pretty fast pixel response rate, but I don't think that's what he was arguing about. This monitor is clearly not an FW900.
 
Last edited:

Mark Rejhon

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
1,395
Pursuit camera tests should be executed on the U3014.
Similiar to the pursuit camera tests I did for LCD Motion Artifacts 101.

Mark Rejhon said:
The Blur Busters has created LCD Motion Artifacts 101, showing accurate photography
of ghosting, coronas, motion blur, and PWM artifacts!

. .

. .

We are the world’s first blog to utilize a pursuit camera for capturing motion artifacts!
See LCD Motion Artifacts 101!
Can you tell me what your artifact looks most similar to?
 
D

Deleted member 222586

Guest
But he's referring to RTC overshoot specifically, that's the whole point of his thread (unless I misunderstand the point you're making, feel free to correct me.)

I guess I'm confused as to what you're saying. He took screenshots of a 30 fps video, while the monitor refresh on the desktop is at 60 fps. The screenshots he was claiming are RTC overshoot are just bad screenshots that exaggerate motion blur because they're NOT photographs of the original source taken with a very fast exposure camera. This is even more exaggerated by the fact that it was 60 fps Dell U3014 --> 30 fps iPhone --> 30 fps YouTube --> ?? fps (his monitor) --> screenshot. The motion blur his pictures show aren't overshoot, which is what he was claiming they are.

As far as IPS monitors go, this has a pretty fast pixel response rate, but I don't think that's what he was arguing about. This monitor is clearly not an FW900.
Whatever he was talking about, what he shows might be many things... but isn't RTC. What I was addressing was your comment regarding the "methodology" of the test. Sure, if you set the exposure not fast enough you will cause some of the problems... but if you look at the youtube video, you can see that the trailing is kinda obvious.

But yes, you are right because that ain't RTC (as RTC is a trail of a different color than the origin that follows the image, that is caused by time compensation and trying to find colours that have faster response time than the originals, or at least that's how my brain makes such thing function XD
 

medavid16

n00b
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
17
This thread blew up I debated if I should've posted my video, again it was off an iPhone 5.. But let me know what I can do to capture and publish to help everyone make their own judgement. I'll shoot in 720p at 60fps later today let me know where to submit video
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
43
This thread blew up I debated if I should've posted my video, again it was off an iPhone 5.. But let me know what I can do to capture and publish to help everyone make their own judgement. I'll shoot in 720p at 60fps later today let me know where to submit video
Hey medavid16, I hope my comments didn't imply your videos weren't helpful. They definitely are, I was just trying to explain their limitations. Sorry if my comments made it seem like you were being unhelpful, that definitely wasn't my intention. Thanks again for posting those videos.
 

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11
I believe some take this as an argument and assault on their pride and property, because they own the monitor, so they become emotionally invested in a fight. Please try to remember it's just a tool, and your happiness in a purchase really shouldn't be dependent on how it works for other people.

The purpose of this thread is merely to ask a question, and hopefully find an answer. On April 1st, prior to this question was posed, the following was posted to the Dell Community Forum:

layte said:
As noted in the TFTCentral review: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u3014.htm this display suffers from horrific overshoot in certain situations. I have only owned my 3014 since last week and now it is all I can notice when moving the mouse cursor around the screen and when scrolling certain types of image, a wired negative ghosting is the best way I can describe it.

Unfortunately this is caused by Dell's overly aggressive overdrive settings which they have not seen fit to give the user any control over. I feel that unless their is a way to change or disable the overdrive on this display I am going to have no option to return it to the supplier for a refund (anyone found a way to access the service menu yet?) .
I emboldened the main point, which is that somebody out there who owns the U3014 was significantly distracted by just the cursor moving around and scrolling. This leads to the question, "Is it unusable for motion?"

It says it's only for certain types of images, which is in line with the test results from TFT Central. The details about the various real-world scenarios is what this thread can help uncover. With that information, people then can know whether it's a problem for their intended use.

The monitor looks like it shouldn't have trailing error artifacts from the overdrive in colorful moving scenes. In a game like was shown in the video, the inverse trails as seen in other videos is not evident. Since we know the cameras can capture it for others, the first assumption is that this means it must not be so significant of a problem in such uses. Otherwise, we'd expect to see something more than motion blur, which could be a result of the shutter speed of the camera and wouldn't appear exactly the same with the eye.

Here are stills taken from the video on the Asus PB278Q overshoot:



Notice how with the white cursor there is a black cursor trail. That is the main effect of interest, because all LCD monitors will have some ghosting, but usually it's just a fading version of the same image. This other kind of artifact is an error, where it shows the inverse of the image.



But with color, it doesn't just appear as an inverse image. Notice how you can see the white and black cursor, yet their corresponding colored icons don't appear very different.

It was possible that with the U3014 video of the forum page, with its dark greys, and the white and black box that there'd be some obvious inverse effects like the cursor. There's the picture already posted from the U2413 that shows the effect on a scrolled webpage. But that didn't document anything obvious either.



This is the cursor from the U3014. Notice how the trails are all white, there is no black one. That doesn't document it either.

The numbers from the TFT Central review showed where the errors are, so I created and provided an image that contains a center bar with grey, which intersects with all levels from black to white. Based on my loose understanding of this whole situation, I thought scrolling this should allow you to cycle the pixels from all shades of dark and light to the grey that they measured to be where the problem is. Maybe then some obvious artifact will be apparent in the dark to grey portion, and not the light to grey. Or maybe that wouldn't show it either, but it's another step in the investigation.

Please keep in mind that not everyone games, and of those, some might play games that appear different than the ones you do. The errors are confidently known to not be in all situations at all times. If someone can see the trailing with their mouse cursor, it should only be on certain screens, when scrolling certain pages, because the numbers show there are transitions where there are no errors.

It's also possible some units are defective, but that seems unlikely that they'd send TFT Central a defective one when it'd help determine their sales. But you can perform a diagnostic check with the following procedure:

  1. Unplug the video cable(s) from the rear side of the computer or monitor. The monitor, then, goes into the self-test mode.
  2. Press and hold Button 1 and Button 4 on the front panel simultaneously, for 2 seconds. A gray screen appears.
  3. Carefully inspect the screen for abnormalities.
  4. Press Button 4 on the front panel again. The color of the screen changes to red.
  5. Inspect the display for any abnormalities.
  6. Repeat steps 5 and 6 to inspect the display in gray, red, green, blue, black, white and text screens.
  7. The test is complete when the white screen appears. To exit, press the Button 4 again.
Please try not to take this thread personally. I started it, and I don't. The monitor is just a tool, and I happen to work with a lot of moving darks and greys on a daily basis. My monitor is damaged, and I was considering purchasing a U3014, but there being no option to disable overdrive is a possible issue for me because I'd prefer slower pixel response times than errors that might distract from productivity, or interfere with motion design precision.

I think it all comes down to choice, and I support those requesting that manufacturers provide it, especially when these artifacts are likely a result of their aggressive attempts to cheat the numbers lower and lower for marketing purposes.

TFT Central said it:

tftcentral said:
It's a shame there is no option to disable the overdrive impulse on these new screens really to eliminate any issues users might experience.
layte said it:

layte said:
I feel that unless their is a way to change or disable the overdrive on this display I am going to have no option to return it to the supplier for a refund ...
nokey said it:

nokey said:
This is seriously worst generation of your monitors what you are have ever made!
AH... I know the DELL new motto: More overdrive = More Adidas.

My request still: Please add user control for ovedrive to your monitors. (like Samsung, Nec...)
AND FIX THIS GENERATION!
Now I'm asking... are all these people, including owners, and professional reviewers who attempted precise measurement aware of an issue that is a potential problem for some? Or are they being too sensitive? If it is a potential problem, in which cases? Is it something not even noticeable by most people, and all they see is typical motion blur, which exists everywhere, even in real life? Or is this a defective batch, since the monitor was just released, and there will be a public outcry and Dell will respond with a revision, with either adjusted settings to remove the errors, or an option to disable or adjust the response time compensation?

A lot of people want to know if they should buy right now or not, me included. Emotional hysteria will delay that conclusion. Please just test things. Start with the image I provided earlier, try various other ones you can find online, and let's crowdsource to the answer. If you already own the U3014, and a significant problem is uncovered, you shouldn't feel bad, because you will get it replaced. If it turns out to be a real problem for you, and they won't correct it, you can return it for a refund. Only good can come from answering this question, as long as you stay focused on the purpose.

I think it's unlikely to be a major issue if it's taking this long for people who have it to say: "Oh yeah, why didn't I notice that before? I see it clearly! Here are pictures of when I see it, and here are pictures when I don't..."

It goes without saying everyone interested in information about an expensive purchase such as this are appreciative of everyone's contribution. Even if a piece of provided info from an owner of the display does not show a problem, it's another piece in the puzzle, and that itself is useful for something. You can't go down to the store to demo it right now, so every little bit counts. Thanks.
 

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11
It's worth noting this problem isn't just isolated to the U3014, but all recent models. There is an active thread right now in the Dell Forum about the U2413:

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/peripherals/f/3529/t/19494628.aspx

Dell said:
There is no user control over the overdrive RTC (response time compensation) impulse within the monitor OSD menu.
Tesla1856 said:
This poor RTC automatically excludes this monitor from my consideration. I wouldn't accept this on a $100 monitor, much less a $500 monitor.
The TFT Central review mentions some comparison with the others, saying the U3014 had worse RTC error:

tftcentral said:
In practice this results in an obvious trailing image on certain transitions which could prove distracting. This was worse than we'd seen from the U2713H and U2413 as well where the RTC error was not as extreme, but still pretty significant. The U2413 and U2713H seemed to show more error with changes to white (x - 255) which had been pretty much eliminated here, but the error when switching to light grey shades was far more of an issue.
When people are complaining about the U2413, which TFT Central says has less error, and we already saw the picture of obvious overdrive error on the U2413 during scrolling of an ordinary webpage, then it makes you wonder about the U3014.

There are no other options in the 16:10 space for high resolution with LED backlighting.

In less than a couple weeks the Lenovo LT3053p will be out, for $1,600 from Lenovo, and $1,425 from another store. It appears to use the same panel, but different backlight, and OSD. There is no option listed in the manual for disabling or adjusting RTC. Their support page lists the backlight as "WLED". The Dell U3014 is "GB-LED". Because the backlight appears to be different, it's a very open question about the PWM. The U3014 PWM was said to be at 2500 Hz, which shouldn't show the typical obvious strobing of slower PWM frequencies. That's an important detail, and the LT3053p might not use PWM, or it could be the same as the U3014, or it could be the typical slow flashing kind.

Normally Samsung is out there with their competitive lineup, but there's nothing to be found. Where is the Samsung 30" PLS LED-backlit display? The XL30 was from 5 years ago. It was 2560x1600, 30", 14-bit LUT, S-PVA, with LED backlighting.

If you guess the Lenovo will have some silent disqualifier, like slow PWM, then the Dell is all there is. Unless Samsung is gearing up to announce the release of their 30" PLS. It might have no PWM, similar specs to the U3014, and the option to control the RTC, which would make it a more desirable display for some.

There's a lot of unanswered questions right now. If the Dell RTC issues aren't a problem like some claim, then even if Samsung offers a better choice in a month or two it could still be a good purchase now, and would probably cost less. The new Lenovo 30" display just days from release might also have no PWM, and less RTC error, giving people concerned about these issues another option.

The reason why this thread was important to create now, is because Dell was offering a coupon stack where many people were jumping at the U3014 for $1,215. That offer expires 4/4/13 7:00 AM. CT, which is less than a day from now.

If someone were to buy now, and they use the display in a way where the overdrive errors could be a problem, then it'd be a sad situation if in just a week from now the Lenovo turns out to be a gem with none of those issues, or a week after that Samsung announces their 30" update with better price and performance for their needs.

Dell frequently has coupons with significant discounts over their advertised price. Since this question hasn't been answered quickly yet, maybe people still on the fence should think twice about jumping just yet, if they're able to use whatever they have now for another month.
 

NCX

[H]ardness Supreme
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
6,224
I found the S2740L's overshoot to be worse than the U2713H. The first thing I noticed after 30 seconds of gaming on the S2740L was the frequent overshoot, yet many have said they don't see it at all, even after watching+reading S2740L review and seeing the examples.

The U2713H's overshoot was a bit more disturbing since it is colored vs. the transparent light+dark overshoot on the S2740L, but also less frequent vs. the S2740L.

The 3014's ghosting issues should come as a surprise to no one since all of the Dell S series models and the U2x13H's overshoot.

30" monitors have always been mediocre and have been plagued with more image quality related issues than smaller monitors (aggressive AG, poor black levels, high input lag, mediocre color presets, lack of proper sRGB modes on the non NEC/Eizo models, lack of color controls, wide gamut w/o hardware calibration), it seems Dell is continuing the trend by fixing a few issues and replacing them with lovely overshoot :)

HP released an overshoot free, slim-bezel AH-IPS to compete with the S2740L, hopefully they release a 30" with proper overdrive too.
 
Last edited:

medavid16

n00b
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
17
Hey medavid16, I hope my comments didn't imply your videos weren't helpful. They definitely are, I was just trying to explain their limitations. Sorry if my comments made it seem like you were being unhelpful, that definitely wasn't my intention. Thanks again for posting those videos.
None at all, just seemed everyone else was getting all riled up! lol But I was stating I have pretty much the same perspective as Sasquatch (in this thread or another)

The 1080p video is uploading right now. My 5D Mark II doesn't record in 60fps as I originally had thought =\ Still in 30fps, but I figured I'd upload it anyway. It's a pretty big upload, I'll post the link when it's done.

I still have the option of returning it, but despite everyone's position and interpretation of other people's complaints and measurements etc, I'm very happy and I'm still going to keep this monitor. Maybe that says something that despite reading all the claims and negatives, my personal experience has been extremely positive and I dare say the best monitor I've ever owned, I'm still going to keep it (even though I HAVE the option of returning it).
 

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11


The bird thing at upper right? It looks like a white inverse error.



The fireball thing next to the bird? It looks like possibly an inverse from the light fireball, but maybe the 3D engine tried to make a shadow on a cloud?



The statue? Looks like a dark trail to the right, and inverse to the left. There might also be some for the building and foliage. The background looks splotchy.



More of those kinds of things, could also be mpeg artifacts?



Do you notice anything with your eyes if you scroll this image fullscreen?
http://www.abload.de/img/overshooteroqsco.png
 

medavid16

n00b
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
17
Here's the video, but guess someone saw it already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oelpR3z8-Gg

Just as someone had pointed out, and what I had mentioned, I have no video device that can record at 60fps, so the video is also at 30fps, just like the iphone. =| but I thought i'd share it anyway.

When I'm actually sitting and using the monitor, it's no where near the video I recorded onto the camera. I'm not a video expert, but I can tell you that what happens in the video is not what happens sitting in front of the monitor, and I have to be suspicious that it's because it's the 30fps or even the compression used by youtube.

And yes, the artifacts that you see is the compression of the video used by youtube.

And the fireball is actually not in the sky but "VERY CLOSE" to the camera, it's a spell cast by someone standing in front of the camera.

Remember to change the setting on youtube to 1080p to view it in a higher res, not that it would matter

HAVING SAID THAT THOUGH, the photo link that overshooterogsco.png FINALLY shows SOME of the "delay" and the "overshoot" that people are describing, but that's only with rapid movement of scrolling. That was the only thing that actually showed SOME overshoot that I can notice, otherwise the blue ABCDEF and the previous image did not have a significant overshoot.

Again, not an expert, just a subjective view. I'm sure it exists, and I still have the option of returning this monitor, but I don't plan to jerk my mouse on a white/black contrasting screen very often and even at best, it's easily tolerable. None of my applications would be affected by a high contrast rapid movement, definitely not noticeable in games. And I only really do photoshop =\
 

Jamon

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
11
Finally! Thank you! Then the TFT Central measurements were accurate. That grey color is where the problems are found then.

Can you provide anymore details about what you see with that image when you scroll? It shouldn't show the same errors all across, does it?
 

medavid16

n00b
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
17
Finally! Thank you! Then the TFT Central measurements were accurate. That grey color is where the problems are found then.

Can you provide anymore details about what you see with that image when you scroll? It shouldn't show the same errors all across, does it?
I'm playing with that link on several monitors here, and actually having playing around with it, it is noticeable on almost all the ips monitors here and in comparison, the U3014 probably performs not better but also not worse than the rest of the monitors here.

Visually and subjectively, what I see is a "skipped gap", not sure if that makes sense. But basically not a smooth/scroll but like a small jump "ahead" this little jump is only pronounced with very rapid movement, but otherwise not noticeable if you scroll at a normal reading speed. Of course if you use the mouse wheel, it is inaccurate as by default mouse wheel is every 3 lines.

Again, far more technical than I think for the average person to notice. I can see video producers concerned or perhaps special effects specialist, but otherwise photographers, business users, gamers, I assure you it is not noticeable. I should caution though, for the gamers, you should have a high power video card, otherwise you will notice a lag as your card needs to be able to power a 2560x1600 resolution, which is a different issue.
 
Top