DDC pump - Petra Top necessity ??

Discussion in 'Water Cooling' started by Xilikon, Jul 18, 2007.

  1. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    I'm slowly planning a new watercooling setup for my future Q6600 (like everyone's else here :D ) and my main goal is to have something very reliable (it will be running 24/7 at 100% load for folding), not too expensive for nothing and which could be good for many years (it's a big investment so I would like to get a good return in use). For now, the WC setup will be just for the CPU with a GPU added later depending on what video card I will pick in 2-3 months. Overall budget is around 250$.

    The whole setup will be installed on my Wavemaster case. Before anyone say it's too small, I plan to place the radiator outside on the top so there is plenty of room inside from what I see around.

    For now, I'm almost settled on the components list :

    -Swiftech MCRES-Micro res. (Saw a picture on Swiftech site with this installed on the Wavemaster on the hdd support side). This is my firm pick.
    -Swiftech Apogee GT/GTX or D-Tek Fuzion (depends on pricing and availability).
    -MCR220 or Black Ice GT Stealth 240 (Open to good suggestions here, only requirements is 2x 120 mm fans and not too expensive).
    -Laing DDC 3.2 pump (might get a D5 if there is a compelling reason but I would prefer the DDC for space and placement issues).
    -1/2" ID tubing.

    The main question here is about the Petra Top ppl is raving about... Knowing my light needs and the case choice, is getting this top absolutely necessary ? If yes, can anyone explain what this top is good for ?

    I would also like some suggestions about the radiator since this is something I'm truly undecided.



    [​IMG]
     
  2. DarkenReaper57

    DarkenReaper57 2[H]4U

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    You might want to look at a 120.3 radiator instead of a 120.2 to handle the heat dissipation of both a quad-core CPU and GPU and retain quiet operation.
     
  3. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    Quietness isn't important (forgot to outline this). I already have 2x Silverstone FM121 fans with controllers so the max CFM is 110. I would need a radiator who love high CFM and from what I've gathered, a cpu+gpu need 2 fans rad (150w each).

    [​IMG]
     
  4. mwin

    mwin 2[H]4U

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    The DDC pump has fittings for 3/8" ID tubing. If you're planning on using that tube size, the aftermarket top isn't necessary. If you're planning on using 1/2" ID tubing, I'd get another top.
     
  5. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    I see it now... After hearing this, I rechecked Petra's Tech Shop about this spec and it's indeed 3/8" barbs for the standard DDC and 1/2" for the D5. Now, I'm debating the need of 1/2" ID tubing for such a simple loop... Can anyone help me pick the best ID ?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. bail_w

    bail_w [H]ardness Supreme

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    Get the top, its is a good improvement over the stock top.
     
  7. migueld

    migueld [H]Lite

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    Get 3/8" it's less bulky than 1/2" and you won't notice a difference :)
     
  8. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    I agree... I double-checked the specs 10 mins ago and I see that most barbs can be replaced with 3/8" barbs so having a 3/8" tubing is good for me. This will also settle the debate on the Petra Top necessity (I will buy it but not right now, more likely down the road when I add a GPU waterblock).

    Remain to find what is the right radiator who are good with high CFM fans and I'm almost settled.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Arcygenical

    Arcygenical Will Watercool for Crack

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    Go for a BIX radiator if you'll be using high-speed fans... EIther that or a thermochill.

    Seriously, if you're going 8800GTS/X and a Q6600, you won't really be able to overclock it very well, and still get good temperatures.
     
  10. javisaman

    javisaman Limp Gawd

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    Thats debatable...

    I agree the HW Labs rads are usually designed for high CFM fans. But even with that you should still try to get a triple radiator if you want to cool an 8800 and a quad core (assuming both OCed) with decent temps. You can look into the MCR320 (which you can get for <$50)...or I might even just sell you mine :p which would give you better temps than any dual rad (except maybe a thermochill with low cfm fans).
     
  11. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    BIX = Black Ice Xtreme ??

    Your suggestions is about 2x120mm radiators ? What if I decide to finally go to 120x3 configuration and sacrifice 1-2 5 1/4" drives since the top length isn't enough to accomodate 120x3 without having the tubing hitting the drive if placed on the top ?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    I'd stick with 3/8 tubing personally. I've got 1/2" in my system and I wish I had gone with the smaller size. It's so much easier to work with and the performance difference is minimal.
     
  13. javisaman

    javisaman Limp Gawd

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    Yep

    Well thats a decision entirely up to you. If your willing to make that sacrifice you will have better temps. You could always put something like a fan controller in that space as well (which shouldn't take up the entire 5 1/4" space)
     
  14. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    After some thinking, I believe it would be wiser to go with a 120x3 configuration for radiators and mod my case with this in mind. The worst thing which can happen if I get a 120x2 is to be disappointed by the cooling performance so I'm either forced to pay big bucks for the top 120x2 radiators without any guarantee of a better performance or remod my case for 120x3 with the ugly results.

    I can live with a loss of 2 5 1/4" drives as long as I use 3/8" tubing. javisaman are right, I can put a controller or a LCD display in that space (I was supposed to buy a new one but always postponed it forever, after having a L.I.S.2 Blue Eye for 2 years and which now display missing lines).

    Another way would be to mod so it accomodate a 120x3 with the tubing passing in the middle and having the back extend past the rear of the top. Third way would be to mount the radiator on the side with the tubing getting thru the top side in the middle... This is for another thread so I won't decide now :D

    A last question : Since I'm going with a 120x3 configuration, which one would be better between a Black Ice Stealth or Swiftech MCR320 ?

    Thank you everyone for the suggestions.
     
  15. mwin

    mwin 2[H]4U

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    I won't argue that, at all. I've built four watercooled machines, the first three were all 1/2" ID and the last one was 1/2" from the reservior to the pump and 3/8" from there on out. The 3/8" is so much easier to work with. I don't have any metrics to measure if there was any performance difference, but it is certainly easier to run the tubing.
     
  16. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    Unless your aiming for the OC of the year Merit Badge you won't see anymore than about 1C difference. So pick anything you want from 6mm to 1/2" ID hose.
     
  17. bail_w

    bail_w [H]ardness Supreme

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    you can always use 7/16 over 1/2inch fittings, and even better you dont need to use clamps.
     
  18. ShiningHolden

    ShiningHolden Limp Gawd

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    Doesn't a Q6600 stock put out 175w of heat? (I could be wrong)
    Then overclocked, about 225?

    I had 3 Silverstone FM121's on my triple radiator.
    It was cooling an 8800GTS and a E6300.

    Go triple.
     
  19. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    At stock, it has a TDP of 105W so we are talking about 140-150W overclocked. But the videocard itself is generating over 150W for sure. I guess we are anyway at the limit of 2x120 mm radiator dissipation capacity.

    Myself, I'm now firmly set on 3/8" tubing since I don't shoot for the best OC of the world, just a mild 3.2-3.3 GHz overclocking reliable 24/7 ;)


    [​IMG]
     
  20. Arcygenical

    Arcygenical Will Watercool for Crack

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    P(q6600) = C*V^2*F

    @1.35v 2400mhz (Stock)
    P(w) = 0.025*1.35^2*2400
    =105w.

    @ 1.4v 3200mhz
    P(w) = 0.025 * (1.4^2) * 3 200
    = 156.8

    @ 1.4v 3500mhz
    P(w) = 0.025*1.4^2*3500
    = 171w

    The BIX with 2 60-75cfm fans will dissipate (assuming your coolant flow-rate is 1.5gpm or higher) at least 320w of heat.

    Considering your Q6600 will dump 105w, and a single 8800GTX dumps about 175w, you're good to go with a double BIX.

    Now, is that optimal? Hell no, it'll be loud as hell... but it *will* cool it.

    The MCR320 is the best choice.
     
  21. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Without a doubt. The only reason I didn't switch to 3/8" tubing is because I don't have the 3/8 barbs for my video card waterblocks and I didn't feel like buying them or locating some.
     
  22. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Stock Q6600's are rated for a TDP of 105watts. The QX6700 and QX6800 are rated at 125watts.
     
  23. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    After doing some measuring of my case, I decided to pick a MCR320-QP radiator and I would lose only one drive if I lift the radiator high enough so the bend isn't too tight but this is moot anyways since I have just 2 DVD-RW.

    So far, here's the setup list I will pick :

    -D-Tek Fuzion / Apogee GT - GTX depending on prices and availability (I know the GTX and Fuzion is better so if the price is right, I'll get one of them).
    -Swiftech MCP355 pump with stock top.
    -Swiftech MCRES-Micro res.
    -3/8" Tubing - 5/8" OD, just need to determine how much feets to get for a whole loop.
    -Swiftech MCR320-QP (I will fit them with Silverstone FM121 fans, just need to order a 3rd one).
    -3/8" barbs for the CPU block if it isn't included in the stock packaging.
    -bottle of Pentosin.


    Is that list ok ?

    [​IMG]
     
  24. quicksilverXP

    quicksilverXP Gawd

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    If you want 100% reliability for years to come... I wouldn't invest in a DDC pump. I'd go with a D5 as they seem a bit more reliable for the moment. If you get a DDC... I'd stick to the regular top instead of a modded one.
     
  25. elementh20

    elementh20 Limp Gawd

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    Reliability? There is about a 1% failure rate with the DDCs. So whats so bad about that?
     
  26. migueld

    migueld [H]Lite

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    Get 3/8" ID and 1/2" OD. I'd also get the MCP350 since it quieter, less heat, less vibration and there are less reports of MCP350 failures than 355.
     
  27. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    Who told you that? Consider the source unless it was Laing. Also do you want to be the 1-2 out of a 100 people who get a fried computer because of a pump failure? At least the HPPS and Aquastream have a user replaceable pump controller in case they go south. Why doesn't Laing develop a similar controller?

    Edit:

    They could buy AC's controller and sell it as an OEM product. Win-Win. :D
     
  28. Cascades

    Cascades n00b

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  29. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    That's what I have in my system and it's a bitch to use. Sure it's thick walled and somewhat flexible, but it's a mother to actually get onto plastic barbs and even harder to take them off.
     
  30. topcat989

    topcat989 Hamarabe Lover

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    if you went with a bonny HC you'd have no problems with it's 2x120 form factor, and it would handle your heat load fine. They put BIX to shame (this is my personal experience, I didn't do scientific testing to back it up)
     
  31. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    Actually, it's very hard to kill a CPU and I know what I'm talking because I already tried to do with my E4300 by stopping the fan completely and it shut down pretty fast as soon as it hit the internal thermal sensor limit. unclewebb can also testify of this.

    For the GPU, I know it will throttle in case of cooler failure so it's a non-issue with a pump failure. Those who had fried parts is surely older setups without any thermal protections. With those facts in mind, a pump failure isn't that catastropic as long as we configure the system to shut down on critical temperature since most motherboards has this feature.

    Myself, I would prefer to go with a DDC due to his smaller size as the D5 is a bit bulky. I wanted to put the pump on the hdd rack side below the reservoir so if the pump can work while being put on the vertical side, that will be my way to go. As for the MCP350 vs MCP355 reliability reports, is something available telling that a MCP350 is selling more than a MCP355 to make reports valid ? If MCP350 is rarely sold, it's normal there are less reports ;)

    As for the tubing, I won't change my mind so a 7/16" Masterkleer is out of my plans since it is designed to go with 1/2" barbs while most of my barbs is 3/8". 7/16" is pretty loose with 3/8" barbs (7/16" = 6/8").

    for the core, a Bonneville 77 heathercore might be a good way to consider but I'm hesitant to work on fitting this one with the system since this setup will be my first experience with WC, hence getting ready-made parts for now. I don't mind 3x120 now after taking some measuring and I could even minimize the drive bays loss by using 90 degrees elbow after entering the top case. However, I won't do this since I don't use all 4 drive bays for a foreseeable future excepted a LCD panel, which take no space.

    [​IMG]
     
  32. jws2346

    jws2346 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Hey bro, please post what you finally decided.

    Like many, many people I'm waiting for the price drop on the Q6600's (T minus 3 days)

    I've got a E6600 only OC'ed to 3 GHz (FSB 333) with stock vcore it's WC'ed. I also fold 24/7 so dependability and low temps are important. I use a MCP350, a MCR220 rad and 3/8th tubes with no complaints. I think the E6600's TDP is 65w

    I've read where the Q6600 TDP is 105w so I plan to go with a MCR320 rad instead of a MCR220 rad, everything else will be the same. Not OC'ing to the sky I figure it shouldn't matter 3/8" tube vs 1/2" tube. Am I correct in my "noobish" thinking? Any opinions (except from ET) would be welcomed whole heartedly. Would the MCR320 be sufficient?
     
  33. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    Change the radiator and you get a good setup since it's almost identical to mine :D Tubing matter only for less than 1C variation so unless you want the overclocking gold medal in the olympics, it's meaningless. This is especially true if you are not aiming to reach 3.5 GHz with a quad.

    As for the pump failures issue, I did some research (mostly on XS) and it seems coming from either overheating of pumps who sit on a gel/neoprene pad (no cooling of the circuit board) or bad impeller position/particles in the impeller area. Failure rates is less than 5% and it's usually in 1-2 weeks or after some months for those with burned circuit boards. Having a aftermarket top also seems to increase of failure odds due to the change to the design.

    Knowing this, I will plan to mount the pump on the case side lifted with 1/4" shims (rubber or plastic) so the front 120 mm fan can blow thru the pump sides to cool it off. Like this, I decrease the odds of failure tremendously and make it the same as other pumps like a D5...

    As for the radiator tubing taking space in the drive bays, I just found out there are delrin 90 degrees elbows by DD so I may get 2 of them and route it so it only take 1 drive off with a 5 1/4" platter to rest the tubing and avoid spot pressure on a corner or gravity pull.

    [​IMG]
     
  34. jws2346

    jws2346 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks for the quick reply.

    I agree with you on the "pump failure" deal. Like you said earlier it's hard to overheat a Intel cpu enough to cause it to be damaged permantly. I've also read where a "dirty" PSU could cause some problems or maybe it was starting and stopping the pump all the time?

    Would the problem be due to a "el cheapo" PSU or "shoddy" PSU to device connections? (twisting the wire instead of crimping or soldering it? I know it could be a thousand things, bad elect grid, bad surge supressor, bad biorhythms, etc.

    Did you mean a MCR 320 rad would be OK? Especially since I'm only going to try for a stable, dependable, low vcore OC' of 3 GHz for a 24/7 folding rig. I know, "Luck of the Draw", but every where I've read they OC' to about 3.2 GHz or better.

    Do you think it's worth the trouble to try and get a G0 stepping (for just a 3 GHz OC')? Or just say the "heck with it" and get a B2 (or whatever the stepping is?) which is probably going to be faster and easier.
     
  35. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    Forgot about a dirty PSU factor, you are right. Some failures is just because the molex connection got loose all of a sudden and it's getting less amperage than needed, knowing that starting a pump will pump up to 48w (4 amps). Not being able to provide 4 amps will not help with the pump startup. Some guys suggested giving a dedicated molex line to the pump (maybe use a line dedicated to fans and low power stuff to feed the pump).

    For the radiator, if you already had a MCR220 and plan a very modest overclocking, I suggest you first try with the current radiator to see if the temps is close to your E6600 temps. If it rise a bit (like 10-15C), then a bigger radiator will help. In my case, since it's my first attempt at WC, I don't have any parts on hands so I wanted to pick the right components once for my future needs. It's better to be overkill than waste money changing a part due to the limitations ;)

    For the Q6600, it's a coin toss as far as I'm concerned. It is also very possible that with the price reductions, Intel may empty the B3 stock pretty fast, leaving the market with G0 cpu within 1-2 weeks. However, with WC, it's a bit useless.

    [​IMG]
     
  36. jws2346

    jws2346 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Hey Xilikon, check out this thread. If you've already read it please just ignore this post. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=151955
    It says exactly what you were talking about hurting a Intel cpu by overheating it, it also states some interesting things about the "dual pump" idea.
     
  37. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    Didn't read this indeed but I knew this fact already. I also had a s754 setup before shutdown when a tab broke off and the heatsink popped off. no damage is there ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  38. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    Unfortunately they created another Water Cooling Myth while dispelling another one. Let's see them do that same test with an AMD Athlon 64. I would offer to let them use my Winchester 3500+ but I need my CPU in a usable condition without the magic smoke being let out.

    The best reason for dual pumps is not to increase head pressure or flow, but to provide a fail safe in case one pump dies an untimely death.
     
  39. Xilikon

    Xilikon [H]ard|DCer of the Year 2008

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    I tried (involountarily) this with a A64 Venice as well and it also had thermal protection as well ;) The myth was there because the older cpu like Athlon XP has no protection and thermal protection was added at the same time as adding thermal diode on the die. Check your facts before spreading false myths !!

    [​IMG]
     
  40. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong and if I am then I apologize. :) It is my understanding that this only works with certain MB's. My MB doesn't have this capability and I have been told my CPU would burn up. Any truth to this?