Creative and Nvidia sitting in a tree...

G

Godofdestrcution

Gawd
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
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So I go to look up drivers for my audigy 2 zs, and voila! They still have beta drivers from december! :rolleyes:

All of my ati systems under vista are perfectly stable, but what happens to nvidia? They crash. My 7600 gt with 2 gigs of ram randomly decides to crash. My 6200le has crashes when I play solitaire!!! :rolleyes:

Just to piss on me, when I updated my 1800+ with vista about a week ago or so, they already had drivers for the chaintech av710, WHICH WAS RELEASED SEVERAL FRIGGIN YEARS AGO, that is in my system! :rolleyes:

They've had them since launch! :rolleyes:

I'm typing this on a nvidia system now. Lets hope I can finish it before it assplodes...
 
You're gonna end up being known around here as "The guy that starts threads that devolve into personal attacks and get locked down each and every time," I swear. :D

"And that's all I have to say about that..."
 
Nvidia chipset and SLI'd display cards in my system. Works perfectly for everything but SLI game configurations, which aren't yet enabled in device drivers for my 6xxx series cards. That feature will be soon, though.

I don't have a Creative soundcard. I ditched add-in soundcards when oboard audio got 'good enough'.

What's more is that I had the system overclocked when I installed Vista, which isn't something I'd advise others to do, and the system is perfectly stable and reliable nevertheless.
 
my vista install with my 7800GT is fine, still do not have 5.1 sound though on my nforce board..... grrrrrrr.... oh well the pains of using a brand new os.

I also installed on an oc system, I can see why people might not recommend that, but I felt comfortable installing while oc, due to stability testing I had done. But to each thier own.
 
if you want drivers for X-fi you are going to have to get the beta drivers for the OpenAL interface.
Microsoft screwed over hardware (driver) makers so much so that they no longer have direct access to the hardware... Creative have managed to get a way to see their hardware (and the hardware you bought) to have EAX sound but it is quite beta

don't blame Creative or nVidia, blame Microsoft
 
eeyrjmr said:
don't blame Creative or nVidia, blame Microsoft
Click to expand...

Yada yada yada, this is becoming a broken record.

The underlying sound architecture of Vista has been "on the books," so to speak, for over 3 years now, as well as the underpinnings of the Aero "Glass" interface, so the blame is exactly where it should be: Creative and Nvidia for not getting off their duffs and making good on it in the time alotted.

I can't speak for other soundcard manufacturers or audio devices (Intel onboard stuff works great, but that's Intel for you - they get the job done), but I can speak for ATI and say: it works.

"So where's your Messiah, now?" to just quote something off the top of my head...
 
The only thing they really 'screwed over' was the sound, and kernel protection for 64 bit windows...

Even then, with openal, they can get the job done.

Creative has been making shitty drivers for years. And your blaming Microsoft for this?

Ati cards are running just fine.

Don't pity Nvidia in your DRM crusade.
 
The only 2 drivers I had to find, were both beta drivers from Creative and Nvidia... but its not a big deal. Both work great for me, and I have no issues. So whats the big deal?

Im sure they will release final drivers soon.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
Yada yada yada, this is becoming a broken record.

The underlying sound architecture of Vista has been "on the books," so to speak, for over 3 years now, as well as the underpinnings of the Aero "Glass" interface, so the blame is exactly where it should be: Creative and Nvidia for not getting off their duffs and making good on it in the time alotted.

I can't speak for other soundcard manufacturers or audio devices (Intel onboard stuff works great, but that's Intel for you - they get the job done), but I can speak for ATI and say: it works.
Click to expand...

Well creative should have a driver, but as for the EAX stuff, since vista removed the direct sound part of directX and the games are already made and sold to use direct sound, it could be a long problem there. If my understanding of the situation is correct they need to come up with more than just a driver to get the games working with EAX, and thats what alchemy is suppose to be right?
 
YARDofSTUF said:
Well creative should have a driver, but as for the EAX stuff, since vista removed the direct sound part of directX and the games are already made and sold to use direct sound, it could be a long problem there. If my understanding of the situation is correct they need to come up with more than just a driver to get the games working with EAX, and thats what alchemy is suppose to be right?
Click to expand...


Yes, it may be months before we get the EAX support we had with XP. I bet Creative was happy about MS taking out direct sound.

We may just see a whole new audio card for Vista.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
Yada yada yada, this is becoming a broken record.

The underlying sound architecture of Vista has been "on the books," so to speak, for over 3 years now, as well as the underpinnings of the Aero "Glass" interface, so the blame is exactly where it should be: Creative and Nvidia for not getting off their duffs and making good on it in the time alotted.

I can't speak for other soundcard manufacturers or audio devices (Intel onboard stuff works great, but that's Intel for you - they get the job done), but I can speak for ATI and say: it works.

"So where's your Messiah, now?" to just quote something off the top of my head...
Click to expand...

Yada yada yada
is that your only arguement? The linux kernel is completely open for all to read YET ATi's drivers are complete crap, and yet nVidias are very good! ATi have had years to make good drivers for linux WITH full access to the WHOLE kernel source yet they can't do it

so as you can see having complete access/documentation means completely nothing when it comes to hardware and drivers. If you actually designed hardware you would know that

and I suggest you go and actually go read what was actually removed from hardware vendors when they were denied direct access to their hardware. Again if you were actually designed hardware you would know that being denied access to your work is a real pain

Maybe ATi implemented their XP drivers in such a way they easily isolate the kernel-access part and substitute userland-part. Maybe (to get better performance) nVidia merged well with the kernel and as a result de-merging is a non-trivial matter

were ATi right it there approach? was nVidia right in their approach? since I do not have access to their driver source I will not be so arrogant to say one is better then the other, likewise since I do not have access to their lithographs I cannot say whether ATi hardware is better then nVidia's
 
Godofdestrcution said:
Ati cards are running just fine.
Click to expand...

Umm...not in all respects. OpenGL performance on ATI cards is still quite lacking in their current Vista drivers...as is the TV tuner picture quality. While they may not have the high profile problems Nvidia has, "fine" is a bit of an overstatement. :)

Besides...everyone has some sort of Vista issue. As with any new OS launch, it takes a while for the kinks to get worked out. And beta as they may be, I've had no serious issues with my Creative soundcard.
 
eeyrjmr said:
The linux kernel is completely open for all to read YET ATi's drivers are complete crap, and yet nVidias are very good! ATi have had years to make good drivers for linux WITH full access to the WHOLE kernel source yet they can't do it
Click to expand...

its not that they can't. its that they don't really want to.

seriously, how hard is it to realize MS is not responsible for delayed drivers? if other companies like leadtek can make drivers for their shitty tv tuners, why couldn't nvidia make full "Vista Ready" drivers with SLi and the like? answer me that...why are some companies having final version drivers days before launch day yet nvidia can't seem to get it together? and don't give me that bullshit "premium content" argument. there is absolutely no excuse when you have an OS going thru a long drawn out PUBLIC testing process and then is out in final form MONTHS before launch. and you can't tell me they don't have the resources to do so either. that 20 million lines of code quote that nvidia exec made a week or so ago is a lame argument. they couldn't have it ready by the time vista launched? seems like they have college students working for them. ZOMG the test is tomorrow!!! I NEED TO CRASH!!! and then they stay up all night studying. and then when the test comes around they only get a C or even a D (if you wanna bring up SLi...). they had plenty of time to study and didn't use the time wisely.

so everyone needs to get off the stupid "lets blame MS for everything" bandwagon. if everyone wants to be soooooooooo skeptical of MS, maybe time should be better spent asking some companies why they never used the time before launch wisely and write us some goddamn decent drivers. :rolleyes:
 
markt435 said:
its not that they can't. its that they don't really want to.

seriously, how hard is it to realize MS is not responsible for delayed drivers? if other companies like leadtek can make drivers for their shitty tv tuners, why couldn't nvidia make full "Vista Ready" drivers with SLi and the like? answer me that...why are some companies having final version drivers days before launch day yet nvidia can't seem to get it together? and don't give me that bullshit "premium content" argument. there is absolutely no excuse when you have an OS going thru a long drawn out PUBLIC testing process and then is out in final form MONTHS before launch. and you can't tell me they don't have the resources to do so either. that 20 million lines of code quote that nvidia exec made a week or so ago is a lame argument. they couldn't have it ready by the time vista launched? seems like they have college students working for them. ZOMG the test is tomorrow!!! I NEED TO CRASH!!! and then they stay up all night studying. and then when the test comes around they only get a C or even a D (if you wanna bring up SLi...). they had plenty of time to study and didn't use the time wisely.

so everyone needs to get off the stupid "lets blame MS for everything" bandwagon. if everyone wants to be soooooooooo skeptical of MS, maybe time should be better spent asking some companies why they never used the time before launch wisely and write us some goddamn decent drivers. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

realy?
So microsoft is completly blame-free?
you read abt the farce todo with DirectSound (and the demise of) w.r.t. EAX sound?
read about that and THEN try saying Microsoft are completly blame-free :rolleyes:
 
eeyrjmr said:
realy?
So microsoft is completly blame-free?
you read abt the farce todo with DirectSound (and the demise of) w.r.t. EAX sound?
read about that and THEN try saying Microsoft are completly blame-free :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Wikipedia said:
Because of Xbox and Windows Vista integration, Microsoft is actively pushing developers to migrate new applications to XACT. As a result of this, Windows Vista runs DirectSound in emulation mode on the Microsoft software mixer. The emulator does not have hardware abstraction, so there is no hardware DirectSound acceleration, meaning hardware and software relying on DirectSound acceleration will have degraded performance. In the case of hardware 3D audio effects, they will not be playable.

A solution is to use an OpenAL driver. However, this only works if the manufacturer provides an OpenAL driver for their hardware. As of 2007, only Sound Blaster X-Fi is supported by a pre-release driver that supports DirectSound HAL, under the name 'Creative ALchemy Project'.
Click to expand...

bold for emphasis. yes MS killed directsound. but there is a workaround for it. why aren't companies using it?

whats openAL?

Wikipedia said:
OpenAL was originally developed by Loki Software in order to help them in their business of porting Windows games to Linux. After the demise of Loki, the project was maintained for a while by the free software/open source community — but it is now hosted (and largely developed) by Creative Labs with on-going support from Apple and free software/open source enthusiasts.
Click to expand...
 
Why do linux enthusiasts bother posting about a Microsoft OS, when we all know you hate it. We can read your posts, and what is being said flys out the window. Its not fair to you, but you should learn to read what you say from other people's prospective. Honestly, you claim to be so open, but you're the most closed minded people I've ever met.

I said it in the thread that got locked, and I'll say it again. If you're saying Microsoft killed all this shit off with their crap code and DRM, I'll say it hasn't been out long enough for you to make that call. Not only that, but the fact that their source code is closed keeps from really knowing. ATi has drivers that are doing well on Vista, so really, I can't cut nvidia any slack here. Creative.. EAX is built on directsound and its a shame about this. I do hold MS partly at fault, but at the same time creative has put out crap drivers for years. Its not like these kinds of problems are new for them. Not only that, but this company isn't so clean themselves. You'll quote John Carmack about MS grasping for straws for reasons to upgrade to Vista, but ask him about Creative. Oh he loves creative. I remember the huge software patent fight between him and them over what he developed for doom 3 on his own. He never stole anything, but it was the same technology they held a software patent on, and screwed them with doom 3. What happened to Aureal 3d? There is another example of them throwing around their weight.

From my standpoint, I think we should just wait and watch. Holding off before buying Vista isn't hurting anybody if you believe that is the best move (if you even use windows to begin with). The part that wins the day is that Vista will certainly be succesful, if just because it is sold on PC's off the shelf. And hey, if it sucks so bad, woohoo JOB SECURITY!
 
I know exactly what OpenAL is, I use the usual hack of replacing Epic's pre-compiled OpenAL libs with my Gentoo system OpenAL libs to boost performance in UT2004 (I did that is Doom3 as well and will do with QuakeWars).

Why don't more companies provide OpenAL drivers? because MS pushed for DirectX to be used :rolleyes:
OpenAL is a rival API (like OpenGL is, and you know what MS planned to do with OGL in vista dont you :rolleyes: )

Since the whole DirectX was pushed as the all-in-one API (DX3d=>OGL, DXS=>OAL,DXI=>SDL) quite a few games used DX over OpenAL (except Battlefield, iD games or Epic games) and as a result THOSE games now suffer in Vista

Yes Creative have a BETA wrapper that will take DirectSound calls and translate them into OpenAL calls but it is just that BETA have you even been to the project page to see what games are listed as supported

The problem isn't simply snd-card manu "should" provide OpenAL drivers, Programs NEED to use the OpenAL API and not alot do and THUS there will still be a performance issue unless other companies licence ALchemy and since that project seems the only way dor DirectSound calls to have any form of acceleration we now have a nice monopoly on sound just created

Thankyou Microsoft!!!
 
eeyrjmr said:
I know exactly what OpenAL is, I use the usual hack of replacing Epic's pre-compiled OpenAL libs with my Gentoo system OpenAL libs to boost performance in UT2004 (I did that is Doom3 as well and will do with QuakeWars).

Why don't more companies provide OpenAL drivers? because MS pushed for DirectX to be used :rolleyes:
OpenAL is a rival API (like OpenGL is, and you know what MS planned to do with OGL in vista dont you :rolleyes: )

Since the whole DirectX was pushed as the all-in-one API (DX3d=>OGL, DXS=>OAL,DXI=>SDL) quite a few games used DX over OpenAL (except Battlefield, iD games or Epic games) and as a result THOSE games now suffer in Vista

Yes Creative have a BETA wrapper that will take DirectSound calls and translate them into OpenAL calls but it is just that BETA have you even been to the project page to see what games are listed as supported

The problem isn't simply snd-card manu "should" provide OpenAL drivers, Programs NEED to use the OpenAL API and not alot do and THUS there will still be a performance issue unless other companies licence ALchemy and since that project seems the only way dor DirectSound calls to have any form of acceleration we now have a nice monopoly on sound just created

Thankyou Microsoft!!!
Click to expand...

unless its a real solid performance loss, then its not a problem is it? omg i can't play css at 200 fps anymore...i can only get 190 now.

i haven't had any performance loss in any of my games thats been noticeable. and yes they're all directx games. this all seems to be subjective. lemme see a link that shows the loss in a statistical form. or maybe even Kyle should find out if its a REAL solid problem. i'd love to know how much fps i'm losing.

here is a quote from techgage who did some performance testing between vista and XP

I forgot to make mention of this, but its true. OpenAL is the primary sound technology used in Vista, so future games released will have this support. For games that lack this OpenAL support, companies like Creative will be releasing special drivers that will convert all DirectSound 3D to OpenAL so that it can be used appropriately. It's clunky, but its better than nothing. This is another good reason that Vista is not the right OS for current gaming.
Click to expand...

sure it may not be the right OS for gaming right now...but were 2000 or XP when THEY first came out? last i checked, vista came out.....13 days ago. everyone seems to cry foul when MS pushes something new. yeah yeah if it ain't broke don't fix it right? that may be true. :rolleyes:
 
one thing i am getting tired of is arguing with LINUX ppl over this. as if they'd feel any other way and anyone else could change their minds....i'm done. me go to my cg class now
 
Ok.
These rant threads are getting silly.
You're not contributing anything. Discussion devolve into classroom bickering and it's annoying.

Usually, threads that start out on a wrong foot can turn up some pretty interesting discussions, workarounds, better ways to get stuff working and those are great. But just ranting to rant is not useful. This isn't livejournal.

So, you could ask for specific help or contribute something useful. You want to rant, go tell someone that cares.
 
jimmyb said:
This is a bit much. Many Linux "enthusiasts" are also Windows "enthusiasts".
Click to expand...

I agree, sorry. I didn't mean it quite the way it came out. Perhaps I should learn to read my own posts from others perspective 'eh?
 
Here's my take on this...

nVidia - This one is THEIR fault. They had plenty of time to get ready for this.

Creative - I'm not so much mad at creative as I am Microsoft on this one. Microsoft's decision to drop DirectSound (which they pushed everyone TOO), has really screwed over everyone. Sound card makers, game makers, everyone. In one sweep they have made obsolete everything and everyone's efforts over the last 5 years. Microsoft should be officially chastised in the press over this one.

I don't fully understand this "Alchemy" thing, or what exactly it's going to do for us, but as I read it it has to be updated for EACH game that it's going to support.

Hell, we're back to the days of no sound standard now.

Microsoft was just plain stupid on this one.

And I am particularly pissed. I paid the big bucks for the X-Fi Elite Pro. A $400 sound card that is barely useable now.
 
Oh, and here's a question I'd like to ask, because I honestly don't know the answer...

Is one better off just ripping out their X-Fi, and using the on-board audio, sucky as it may be?
 
what would you all prefer, buggy drivers, or late drivers that work well. Also from what I understand, and from my experience the only people having this issue are people with 8800GTX's. My 7800GT runs fine (ok I haven't installed a game or played a game yet to try) so maybe I will have issues, but wait and relax, I however do blame nvidia for putting vista ready labels on 8800GTX's if the drivers are not ready.
 
/me puts on his headphones and listens to digital stereo audio from his onboard audio chip... left, and right... as if anyone needs anything else...
 
eeyrjmr said:
Yada yada yada
is that your only arguement? The linux kernel is completely open for all to read YET ATi's drivers are complete crap, and yet nVidias are very good! ATi have had years to make good drivers for linux WITH full access to the WHOLE kernel source yet they can't do it
Click to expand...

Your argument is a bit out of date... I type this on a Gentoo system with an X1950XT. I'm running XGL (and it's sweet). Doom3 is pretty much the only Linux game I play, and it runs fine. When I tried Quake 4 it worked great too. Since the ATI AMD merger Linux drivers have improved a ton, and I might even say they beat nVidia now...

Anyway, now that that's cleared up, you cannot blame M$ for the lack of driver support. You can't blame them for much of anything. They were very good about letting hardware manufacturers what was going on, and we now know who listened...
 
TechLarry said:
Here's my take on this...

nVidia - This one is THEIR fault. They had plenty of time to get ready for this.

Creative - I'm not so much mad at creative as I am Microsoft on this one. Microsoft's decision to drop DirectSound (which they pushed everyone TOO), has really screwed over everyone. Sound card makers, game makers, everyone. In one sweep they have made obsolete everything and everyone's efforts over the last 5 years. Microsoft should be officially chastised in the press over this one.

I don't fully understand this "Alchemy" thing, or what exactly it's going to do for us, but as I read it it has to be updated for EACH game that it's going to support.

Hell, we're back to the days of no sound standard now.

Microsoft was just plain stupid on this one.

And I am particularly pissed. I paid the big bucks for the X-Fi Elite Pro. A $400 sound card that is barely useable now.
Click to expand...

Alchemy....
You ever heard of an OSS project called "WINE"? probably the best model to describe Alchemy... WINE tries to take Windows system calls and translates them to Linux calls. It takes Direct3D calls and maps them to OGL calls. Takes DirectSound calls and maps it to OpenAL calls

And there we have it!.

Imagine a programs has a function which is... DX::playSound(some,data) In 2K,XP this would then get sent via the DirectX system straight to the soundcard driver which would then setup the PCI-bus to accept the data in a form it can do magic on...

In Vista, this call is instead mapped to a software layer that then goes to some userland driver (sure would get funky EAX sound effect BUT all done in software... goes against the point of dedicated ASIC's that outperform the fastest CPU's around).

So Alchemy.. It sits there (probably replacing some part of DirectSound libaries) and it intercept's ANY functional call made to DirectSound. Then the magic occurs the API of DirectSound and OpenAL are not the same (different function,different structure of data...). Alchemy sits between the API of DirectSound and the OpenAL driver interface such that when

DX::playSound(some,data)
is called, it is infact the PlaySound of Alchemy as opose to DirectSound. It then does some juggling of the data and calls...

Alchemy::playSound(some,data)
which then goes to the OpenAL driver as
OAL::playSnd(DATA,SoMe)

ie the data is reformatted and the relevant function is called

There WILL be a small amount of system overhead, but it will be alot less then if all the sound pre-processing was done in software (via DirectSound)


Future games will probably start using OpenAL for their sound as opose to DirectSound so future games wont need this Alchemy (the art of changing one thing into another). THIS is only to bridge those games that use DirectSound at the moment


Major fuckup by MS on this one :rolleyes:
 
With creative's beta drivers, my audigy 2 sounds horrible, so I'm using onboard sound.
 
It is absolutely amazint come come to hardware enthusiast forums and find supposed [H]ardkore gamers bewailing the fact that games which make directsound calls will need to use emulation for audio when run in Vista.
 
It is absolutely amazing to visit to hardware enthusiast forums and find supposed [H]ardkore gamers bewailing the fact that games which make directsound calls will need to use emulation for audio when run in Vista.

Software emulation of direct hardware calls is only a problem if your machine is substandard. It's a problem which will dissipate over time as hardware performance increases. It is only a problem for legacy software.

Are you people complaining really softcocks rather than [H]ardkores?
 
eeyrjmr said:
Major fuckup by MS on this one :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. It looks to me like they did it for security and stability reasons. From Creative themselves:

Creative said:
More User Mode, Less Kernel Mode
In this model, nearly all blocks in the picture above run in user space. The only portion of this architecture that runs in kernel mode is represented by the single block called “Audio Driver”, and it contains only a minimal amount of Microsoft code. It contains only the Microsoft “Port Class” Driver, the Vendor “Miniport” driver and Vendor Hardware Abstraction Layer portions depicted in the XP driver architecture diagram. Note that the Windows “Kernel Mixer” (or kMixer) is completely gone.

Reasons for Change
Microsoft had stated reasons for these kinds of radical changes that go beyond “the need to change things”. Reasons include moving as much software out of kernel mode as possible thereby minimizing bug checks (in layman’s terms “BSODs”), developing an architecture to make debugging audio problems in applications easier, and supporting a whole new generation of Digital Rights Management (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/stream/output_protect.mspx) A further description for the rationale of these changes may be seen in this Microsoft developer’s web log entry: (http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/archive/2005/09/19/471346.aspx)
Click to expand...

Full posting here.
 
Interesting. Thanks!

Ok, so it's a wrapper. Not an emulator, but a wrapper. I can see that.

My only concern would be latency issues in the conversions, but I won't worry about that unless it actually is an issue when it's released.

I assume the beta creative x-fi drivers are using this? Those are some pretty bare drivers. None of the control stuff is present for the higher-end versions.

eeyrjmr said:
Alchemy....
You ever heard of an OSS project called "WINE"? probably the best model to describe Alchemy... WINE tries to take Windows system calls and translates them to Linux calls. It takes Direct3D calls and maps them to OGL calls. Takes DirectSound calls and maps it to OpenAL calls

And there we have it!.

Imagine a programs has a function which is... DX::playSound(some,data) In 2K,XP this would then get sent via the DirectX system straight to the soundcard driver which would then setup the PCI-bus to accept the data in a form it can do magic on...

In Vista, this call is instead mapped to a software layer that then goes to some userland driver (sure would get funky EAX sound effect BUT all done in software... goes against the point of dedicated ASIC's that outperform the fastest CPU's around).

So Alchemy.. It sits there (probably replacing some part of DirectSound libaries) and it intercept's ANY functional call made to DirectSound. Then the magic occurs the API of DirectSound and OpenAL are not the same (different function,different structure of data...). Alchemy sits between the API of DirectSound and the OpenAL driver interface such that when

DX::playSound(some,data)
is called, it is infact the PlaySound of Alchemy as opose to DirectSound. It then does some juggling of the data and calls...

Alchemy::playSound(some,data)
which then goes to the OpenAL driver as
OAL::playSnd(DATA,SoMe)

ie the data is reformatted and the relevant function is called

There WILL be a small amount of system overhead, but it will be alot less then if all the sound pre-processing was done in software (via DirectSound)


Future games will probably start using OpenAL for their sound as opose to DirectSound so future games wont need this Alchemy (the art of changing one thing into another). THIS is only to bridge those games that use DirectSound at the moment


Major fuckup by MS on this one :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
Legacy software? You mean, like, everything shipping right now and has shipped in the last several months/years?

You mean that 'legacy' software I have up on the shelf, like Half-Life 2, etc... I should just give up on because of Vista?

I don't think so :)

Catweazle said:
It is absolutely amazing to visit to hardware enthusiast forums and find supposed [H]ardkore gamers bewailing the fact that games which make directsound calls will need to use emulation for audio when run in Vista.

Software emulation of direct hardware calls is only a problem if your machine is substandard. It's a problem which will dissipate over time as hardware performance increases. It is only a problem for legacy software.

Are you people complaining really softcocks rather than [H]ardkores?
Click to expand...
 
TechLarry said:
You mean that 'legacy' software I have up on the shelf, like Half-Life 2, etc... I should just give up on because of Vista?

I don't think so :)
Click to expand...

If you seriously cannot tell the difference between 'give up on' and 'suffer a very small performance hit in' ............


sheesh!:eek:
 
Catweazle said:
It is absolutely amazing to visit to hardware enthusiast forums and find supposed [H]ardkore gamers bewailing the fact that games which make directsound calls will need to use emulation for audio when run in Vista.

Software emulation of direct hardware calls is only a problem if your machine is substandard. It's a problem which will dissipate over time as hardware performance increases. It is only a problem for legacy software.

Are you people complaining really softcocks rather than [H]ardkores?
Click to expand...

*sigh*
I had to spend something like 2month's arguing with some ppl from my IT dept with EXACTLY the same attitude as you!

I simulate for a living (Matlab, ModelSim, SABER, Xilinx Synthasist). EVERY single bit of CPU-time is presious. Some of my SABER models take over 12h to run, thus if I can squeeze 1% out of the system it is a big improvement!

We were running P4 machine and it took some real fighting to get soem decent machines (now got some E6600, 2Gig DDR2...) and what do IT go and do... Cripple it with XP and a load of SMS,monitoring, AV stuff. What did I do... partitioned and installed FC... Why? I have complete control and could drop it down to its bare minimal to get the most out of the HARDWARE that was supplied.

Now you come along and say
Are you people complaining really softcocks rather than [H]ardkores?
Click to expand...
A true enthusiast will try to get the most out of their system, that involves dropping as much to hardware as possible. EVERYONE knows that!, so in fact by your words ppl that choose Vista over XP are Softcocks because they don't care if they don't get the most out of THEIR! system :rolleyes:

remember you bought the hardware NOT Microsoft. ONLY microsoft could spin a drop on performance as a good thing. I don't care if system's are faster,more RAM,more storage.. The rate of increase of these things are overshadowed by the rate of increase in demands that new Microsoft operating systems put on said systems

my old system when it was built was pretty good and could run everything fine (was using 2k). Then the likes of HL2 and co came out and my system really started to show its age. As a couple of game stated to be "XP-only" got hold of a copy of XP for £40 and performance dropped further. Sure yr PC right now might be super-duper and can run Vista + all the apps/games really well. But the thing is... things expand. Wait for crysis sure you might have a mean machine that can stand that. Then wait for the next thing to surpass that THEN you will notice that yr system is starting to show it weaknesses But hey just think if Vista wasn't such an in-efficient fat momma yr PC could of lasted a bit longer before needing an upgrade. But hey I guess you can afford to build a £1500 every year or so.. some of us have families
 
Nice rant, eeyrjmr, but.....
eeyrjmr said:
*sigh*
I had to spend something like 2month's arguing with some ppl from my IT dept with EXACTLY the same attitude as you!

I simulate for a living (Matlab, ModelSim, SABER, Xilinx Synthasist). EVERY single bit of CPU-time is presious. Some of my SABER models take over 12h to run, thus if I can squeeze 1% out of the system it is a big improvement!
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This issue isn't going to impact on your simulation tasks unless those tasks involve Directsound calls. Do they?
 
Sorry. I didn't have my secret decoder ring with me.

Catweazle said:
If you seriously cannot tell the difference between 'give up on' and 'suffer a very small performance hit in' ............


sheesh!:eek:
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