Counter-Strike Tournament Reveals Exploits Equal Cheating In eSports

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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eSports is the new kid on the block as far as professional sports is concerned and is still evolving into what it will eventually become. There will always be growing pains with rules being written and re-written as the situation warrants. Such is the case in point at Dreamhack. Was it a cheat or a legal move?

Dreamhack in Sweden hosts the world’s largest Counter-Strike: Global Offensive tournament, and the matches in question occurred during a quarterfinal match between Swedish team Fnatic and French team LDLC.
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Hasn't that exploit been around for years? I remember doing that very same thing 7-8 years ago.
 
If your glitching and it creates an unfair advantage, that's what "cheating" is called. I ran into a glitch in halo 3 where I could glitch into a container and then fire out of it without being able to take damage. That's cheating and I promptly reported it after I could replicate it easily.
 
viscountalpha said:
If your glitching and it creates an unfair advantage, that's what "cheating" is called. I ran into a glitch in halo 3 where I could glitch into a container and then fire out of it without being able to take damage. That's cheating and I promptly reported it after I could replicate it easily.
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Yeah. The fact it's on a big screen should have equaled DQ for first offense, lose one round (and match, since it was 9-0). Any second time is match DQ.

Not rocket science here.

Simple rules could be:
- Inadvertent glitch (ie: you get shoved through a wall, etc) = warning if player suicides or leaves glitched area.

- Intentional use of glitch = Round DQ
- 2nd Offense, Tournament DQ and put on super serious secret probation.
 
There were also a bunch of pros banned because of hacking, unless this is the same thing. (TotalBiscuit has a video on it) I just don't get how they didn't notice these hacks during tournaments, I thought there is always someone walking around that can see their screens?
 
i actually was watching what happened and what was insane about it...

the team that did it, in their post "victory" interview said they knew about it for a couple of months. You would have thought they would report such a game breaking exploit.. but... nope...
 
viscountalpha said:
If your glitching and it creates an unfair advantage, that's what "cheating" is called. I ran into a glitch in halo 3 where I could glitch into a container and then fire out of it without being able to take damage. That's cheating and I promptly reported it after I could replicate it easily.
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It honestly flabbergasts me that people don't think of this as cheating............
 
I don't consider it cheating, I am playing the game the way it was made. If they developers were too lazy to fix a glitch then that's their problem.
 
"They used a boost - where players jump on another player’s head to reach a high up spot.."
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It's a war/shooter. Standing on someone's back/shoulders never happens in war.

Oh wait.......

5PAIR1z.jpg
 
It is my opinion that glitching is NOT cheating in online games and if the community and gamers as a whole know what is best for them they will adopt this mentality. If you play an unmodified game in any way how can you be cheating? Its time for we the gamers to hold the companies that make games and the mappers responsible for their half assed job. I have made plenty of maps in my day and its REALLY simple to stop people from getting out of the map or anywhere you don't want them to be with clip brushes.

Put the blame squarely where the blame belongs on mappers, and developers. The beauty of gaming is that there should be no way to do what we would call soft cheats or penalties. The reason is because everything is code, there is no such thing as a player that can break the rules without modifying files or using outside programs if the code and maps are built right. Once inside the game the judges and tournament runners should never have to tell a player you can do this or you cannot do that. If standing on top of each other gets a person out of the map, then tell the mapper to fix the shit map or play a different one. As a person who knows how to map for source based games I can tell you for FACT this is nothing but shit mapping. And it is pathetic that we support shit mappers and a lack of continued support by trying to cover it up with gentleman's rules.
 
GoldenTiger said:
It's called abusing an unintended hug. Cheating.
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I don't see it that way. If we start putting limits on what we can and can't do then the human race would've been a extinct a long time ago. The only form of cheating I consider wrong is hacking.
 
rudy said:
It is my opinion that glitching is NOT cheating in online games and if the community and gamers as a whole know what is best for them they will adopt this mentality. If you play an unmodified game in any way how can you be cheating? Its time for we the gamers to hold the companies that make games and the mappers responsible for their half assed job. I have made plenty of maps in my day and its REALLY simple to stop people from getting out of the map or anywhere you don't want them to be with clip brushes.

Put the blame squarely where the blame belongs on mappers, and developers. The beauty of gaming is that there should be no way to do what we would call soft cheats or penalties. The reason is because everything is code, there is no such thing as a player that can break the rules without modifying files or using outside programs if the code and maps are built right. Once inside the game the judges and tournament runners should never have to tell a player you can do this or you cannot do that. If standing on top of each other gets a person out of the map, then tell the mapper to fix the shit map or play a different one. As a person who knows how to map for source based games I can tell you for FACT this is nothing but shit mapping. And it is pathetic that we support shit mappers and a lack of continued support by trying to cover it up with gentleman's rules.
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did you see the boost? it was a 3 person boost. i dont think you plan as a mapper for a 3 person boost.

i dont know why an official didnt stop the match when it happened to say something about it.
 
NickJames said:
I don't see it that way. If we start putting limits on what we can and can't do then the human race would've been a extinct a long time ago. The only form of cheating I consider wrong is hacking.
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We aren't talking about survival, We are talking about someone abusing a glitch to create an unfair advantage. How is that NOT cheating?

Also hope people abuse gliches and become invulnerable in all your online games. It's perfectly legit! I'm sure your fine with people creating a sigificant disadvantage in a game you are having fun with right?
 
Who wants to bet that everyone in the CS community knew about this glitch in the map yet they used it in a major tournament anyway.

GoldenTiger said:
It's called abusing an unintended hug. Cheating.
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Now what happens next? The tournament puts in place some vague rules that say exploiting bugs is not allowed. So let me ask you people this now, is quick scoping a bug? Is running along a wall to pick up speed an unintended exploit? Strafe jumping? All of these things are exploits or bugs. Why is one cheating and the other one not? The answer is simple because there is no reason other than the powers that be who run the tournament nod yes to one and no to the other. And at any point they can and will screw over an innovative team for finding and using an exploit before other people if they feel like it. IMO the crime of this article was they selected a very poor example to discuss a complex point it is obvious here the exploit was over powered and due to the map it was one sided. In CS it is OK to strafe jump now, but at one time people wanted it banned, what happened? Then valve did a patch to put limits on it. This is how exploits and bugs SHOULD be dealt with. We in should not need referees sitting around making sure people are moving the correct way we shouldn't have arbitrary rules telling people you can go here in the map but not there.

viscountalpha said:
We aren't talking about survival, We are talking about someone abusing a glitch to create an unfair advantage. How is that NOT cheating?

Also hope people abuse gliches and become invulnerable in all your online games. It's perfectly legit! I'm sure your fine with people creating a sigificant disadvantage in a game you are having fun with right?
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There very nature of many of the games we play are in fact nothing more than glitches. Strafe jumping in most FPS games, skiing in tribes, no scoping in many realistic shooters. They are bugs or glitches that get a person around the intended rules of the game. Yet many of these bugs define the very essence of the game. If they are truly bugs the developers should fix them. And everyone of them becomes a significant advantage if your opponent does not or cannot use them.

Now lets look at this map case in CS. In the old days before people got all wimpy we would simply not use the map in competition, why? Because poor mapping means for some reason there was an unfair advantage to one side or the other meaning the basic needs of a competition map were not met, because its not balanced. The same holds true for thousands of maps across gaming that do not have any glitches and could have been used to remove this map from competition.
 
rudy said:
It is my opinion that glitching is NOT cheating in online games and if the community and gamers as a whole know what is best for them they will adopt this mentality. If you play an unmodified game in any way how can you be cheating? Its time for we the gamers to hold the companies that make games and the mappers responsible for their half assed job. I have made plenty of maps in my day and its REALLY simple to stop people from getting out of the map or anywhere you don't want them to be with clip brushes.

Put the blame squarely where the blame belongs on mappers, and developers. The beauty of gaming is that there should be no way to do what we would call soft cheats or penalties. The reason is because everything is code, there is no such thing as a player that can break the rules without modifying files or using outside programs if the code and maps are built right. Once inside the game the judges and tournament runners should never have to tell a player you can do this or you cannot do that. If standing on top of each other gets a person out of the map, then tell the mapper to fix the shit map or play a different one. As a person who knows how to map for source based games I can tell you for FACT this is nothing but shit mapping. And it is pathetic that we support shit mappers and a lack of continued support by trying to cover it up with gentleman's rules.
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oh please... While a noble idea, not an idea that is realistic. If this were the case there would be all of 2 esport games if that.

There could be a time where esport will be big enough can create their own games/maps or dictate quality to developers but I don't think that is possible now.

Every organized game played EVER in the history of man has had some form of house rules. Think these are just non-professional sports? Think again, Baseball has different rules for different fields/stadiums called Ground rules.
 
viscountalpha said:
We aren't talking about survival, We are talking about someone abusing a glitch to create an unfair advantage. How is that NOT cheating?

Also hope people abuse gliches and become invulnerable in all your online games. It's perfectly legit! I'm sure your fine with people creating a sigificant disadvantage in a game you are having fun with right?
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People used to glitch in Halo all the time. And you know what? It was FUN! I had great times seeing people using ghosts to slingshot themselves out of the map or boosting warthogs onto the base to guard doors. I met a bunch of friends back in the day who showed me how to do all these glitches and we spent hours learning how to get into high points or out of the map. It was all fun! Now companies like Activision are trying to stop people from posting them? We are reaching a low point in video gaming.
 
trick0502 said:
did you see the boost? it was a 3 person boost. i dont think you plan as a mapper for a 3 person boost.

i dont know why an official didnt stop the match when it happened to say something about it.
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Let’s get a video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRY_TRipfpQ

I said right in my post it’s called a clip plane any mapper worth half a cent knows how to use this. Any mapper worth half a cent knows people boost since CS 1.0 lol seriously?
Actually sorry it’s apparent that I am dealing with an ignorant reader base. So let me explain the mapping side of this. In any source or gold source based game and just about every quake based game when you map you can use a special texture called clip. This has existed and is part of basic tutorials going all the way back to 1998 and before. When applied to a surface clip creates an invisible wall. I and every mapper that cares about creating maps that are not total shit ALWAYS use this brush or other tricks to box in a ceiling and all places that we don't want players to go. It is actually very easy to do since often the entire top of your map can be covered in a single block. Especially in a simple game like CS were generally you never want to give any single player a huge crow’s nest like position.

Also when we create a map we play test it, and part of play testing includes turning down gravity so we can quickly check all over the map for ledges, roofs or anything else someone might be able to get themselves onto and fix it. EVEN if valve is too lazy to do this (which we know they are from this and many other examples) the tournament staff should be doing it BEFORE allowing a map in competition.
In this case we have a simple case, one team learned a map better than another team. And the bullshit explanation in the Forbes article was inaccurate because actually this was not an invincible position it was possible to shoot back. There was no one way wall or anything like that. At this point the tournament should have been allowed to continue and then the mappers and tournament staff should have thanked fnatic for finding an imbalance in the map and either fixed the map or removed it from competition. At the same time all the other teams playing should have been practicing to exploit and counter this position. And what we like to call the meta strategy should have been allowed to progress, after all maybe we would find out that position wasn’t as great as people thought. Maybe leaving a player that far back would cost you too much up front. Not allowing this is sort of like telling a football team you can’t use a newly developed play because the other team doesn’t know about it yet. What’s the point in playing if you can’t surprise your enemy? Why should any team bother to focus on learning new tactics in a map if the tournament is likely to just say ha sorry your tactics don’t count because we didn’t know about them ahead of time?
 
dandirk said:
oh please... While a noble idea, not an idea that is realistic. If this were the case there would be all of 2 esport games if that.

There could be a time where esport will be big enough can create their own games/maps or dictate quality to developers but I don't think that is possible now.

Every organized game played EVER in the history of man has had some form of house rules. Think these are just non-professional sports? Think again, Baseball has different rules for different fields/stadiums called Ground rules.
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Um its 100% realistic and you almost had a good argument except we are talking about CS here. Valves games have plugins allowed, meaning modders can fix code bugs even if valve is too lazy, mapping tools are available meaning anyone can decompile and recompile maps to improve or fix them or simply make new ones that are better. Everything you need is available. Oh and any day you can simply throw a map out of competition. Watch how fast the mapper gets motivated to fix it thin, its amazing.

Baseball is a real life game and you cannot rewrite code to change the laws of physics, you cannot create code that limits the behavior of a player and how hard he can swing a bat or throw a ball. And that gets back to the core of my point we have a chance in Video gaming to free ourselves from the drivel of blind refs, bullshit calls, bias arguments like this, and everything else. We have the ability to just throw the players into a game and let them freely just try to win. Why would we squander such an amazing advantage. Why wouldn't we concentrate our resources on the things we cannot control like real cheats and simply making the game better?
 
rudy said:
Um its 100% realistic and you almost had a good argument except we are talking about CS here. Valves games have plugins allowed, meaning modders can fix code bugs even if valve is too lazy, mapping tools are available meaning anyone can decompile and recompile maps to improve or fix them or simply make new ones that are better. Everything you need is available. Oh and any day you can simply throw a map out of competition. Watch how fast the mapper gets motivated to fix it thin, its amazing.

Baseball is a real life game and you cannot rewrite code to change the laws of physics, you cannot create code that limits the behavior of a player and how hard he can swing a bat or throw a ball. And that gets back to the core of my point we have a chance in Video gaming to free ourselves from the drivel of blind refs, bullshit calls, bias arguments like this, and everything else. We have the ability to just throw the players into a game and let them freely just try to win. Why would we squander such an amazing advantage. Why wouldn't we concentrate our resources on the things we cannot control like real cheats and simply making the game better?
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Baseball is a bad example. Ever hear or steroids? Google cream and the clear.
 
rudy said:
Who wants to bet that everyone in the CS community knew about this glitch in the map yet they used it in a major tournament anyway.
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A youtuber found it. The team in question requested they take it down and they did. Only the person who found it, a handful of their friends, and the team who used it were aware of this boost.

Not only did they hide it, but overpass(the map) is one of the two newest maps used in competitive play. It obviously doesn't have the same amount of miles on it as say dust2, inferno, nuke,etc. Teams were asked to provide valve with feedback.

They knew about this for over 2 months and instead of telling developers they did whatever they could to keep it secret so they could exploit it at the right time.

Also, keep in mind they knew this likely wouldn't be allowed, but they were losing so badly they took the chance anyway.
 
eSports *snerk* are important enough to care about with respect to cheating at all? Whatever. The money involved is like basically nothing and the audiences are super tiny compared to things that are actually sports (not that they're much better, but still).
 
TheCAD said:
A youtuber found it. The team in question requested they take it down and they did. Only the person who found it, a handful of their friends, and the team who used it were aware of this boost.

Not only did they hide it, but overpass(the map) is one of the two newest maps used in competitive play. It obviously doesn't have the same amount of miles on it as say dust2, inferno, nuke,etc. Teams were asked to provide valve with feedback.

They knew about this for over 2 months and instead of telling developers they did whatever they could to keep it secret so they could exploit it at the right time.

Also, keep in mind they knew this likely wouldn't be allowed, but they were losing so badly they took the chance anyway.
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Hoesntly, I don't know what to say.

It seems like a legit way to do things, I mean standing on someone has been around for forever. It does create an unfair advantage but it's not like he became invincible or anything, and they figured it out.

I think it's a problem, that they were trying to keep it a secret by trying to deny other players knowledge of it.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
eSports *snerk* are important enough to care about with respect to cheating at all? Whatever. The money involved is like basically nothing and the audiences are super tiny compared to things that are actually sports (not that they're much better, but still).
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I would assume a good rule of thumb going through life is not to cheat at whatever your doing. You not caring has little meaning to those that do, or anybody else in this forum I'd imagine.
 
pcjunkie said:
I would assume a good rule of thumb going through life is not to cheat at whatever your doing. You not caring has little meaning to those that do, or anybody else in this forum I'd imagine.
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I already gave you attention once today. You won't get any extra to fill your needs until at least tomorrow. :p
 
pothb said:
Hoesntly, I don't know what to say.

It seems like a legit way to do things, I mean standing on someone has been around for forever. It does create an unfair advantage but it's not like he became invincible or anything, and they figured it out.

I think it's a problem, that they were trying to keep it a secret by trying to deny other players knowledge of it.
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Its more complicated than you think. They are using several glitches in the map. First, its not a normal boost. The player on the bottom is standing on a stray pixel that was never intended to be on the map. Secondly, they can't be damaged from all the angles they are visible from. Third, they aren't visible from all the angles they can see from.

It 100% an exploit.
 
Both teams used the boost, but fnatics was more dirty. Instead of standing on a person on something, fnatic was standing on something that wasn't there boosting another player. The ledge that they were standing on shouldn't be able to stand on. They call it pixel walking.
 
Can you always see the other players through the walls like that?
 
rudy said:
It is my opinion that glitching is NOT cheating in online games and if the community and gamers as a whole know what is best for them they will adopt this mentality. If you play an unmodified game in any way how can you be cheating? Its time for we the gamers to hold the companies that make games and the mappers responsible for their half assed job. I have made plenty of maps in my day and its REALLY simple to stop people from getting out of the map or anywhere you don't want them to be with clip brushes.

Put the blame squarely where the blame belongs on mappers, and developers. The beauty of gaming is that there should be no way to do what we would call soft cheats or penalties. The reason is because everything is code, there is no such thing as a player that can break the rules without modifying files or using outside programs if the code and maps are built right. Once inside the game the judges and tournament runners should never have to tell a player you can do this or you cannot do that. If standing on top of each other gets a person out of the map, then tell the mapper to fix the shit map or play a different one. As a person who knows how to map for source based games I can tell you for FACT this is nothing but shit mapping. And it is pathetic that we support shit mappers and a lack of continued support by trying to cover it up with gentleman's rules.
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Strongly agree.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
eSports *snerk* are important enough to care about with respect to cheating at all? Whatever. The money involved is like basically nothing and the audiences are super tiny compared to things that are actually sports (not that they're much better, but still).
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Team Natus Vincere have made $2.4 million just from The International the past three years. This is the annual championship tournament for Dota 2.
 
That's been there FOREVER and no, it's not cheating. I don't even like CS.
 
dgz said:
That's been there FOREVER and no, it's not cheating. I don't even like CS.
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Forever is an incredibly long time considering Overpass is one of the newest maps to both CS:GO and competitive tourneys.

DreamHack has a portion in their rules that state pixelwalking is illegal which is exactly what the boosted from Fnatic was doing.

Fnatic have showed nothing but lack of sportsmanship, professionalism and ethics in the last year, I'm glad DH admins decided to over-rule in LDLC's favor.
 
Rkiivs said:
Team Natus Vincere have made $2.4 million just from The International the past three years. This is the annual championship tournament for Dota 2.
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Exactly! People no one has ever heard of that have to basically share $800,000 per year between however many of them there are on there team. That's like nothing by the time they split it all up. At least with an actual job they can establish a career that'll pay them a decent living wage and they'll get to work with people that bathe regularly. What's worse is that they're probably one of the more betterer paid kinda groups and they're scrounging for tiny bits of money. Other teams are doing even worse, because we all know there's like a huge drop in winnings for second place in any kinda tournament style event.
 
Being a youtuber is where it's at anyway, Pewdiepie made $4 million last year streaming horrible games.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Exactly! People no one has ever heard of that have to basically share $800,000 per year between however many of them there are on there team. That's like nothing by the time they split it all up. At least with an actual job they can establish a career that'll pay them a decent living wage and they'll get to work with people that bathe regularly. What's worse is that they're probably one of the more betterer paid kinda groups and they're scrounging for tiny bits of money. Other teams are doing even worse, because we all know there's like a huge drop in winnings for second place in any kinda tournament style event.
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5, so that's like $160K a year.
 
TheBlueChanell said:
....

DreamHack has a portion in their rules that state pixelwalking is illegal which is exactly what the boosted from Fnatic was doing..
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^ This

If something is stated as against the competition rules.... then doing that thing is the very definition of cheating.
 
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