Corsair VX450 - keep or replace?

[silkstone]

I was making a joke, I apologize for causing offence. I was just annoyed at the misquotations.
Peak power vs. Maximum power.
"I said that the 780 peaks at 230 W
No you said:
The maximum power draw of the 780 is 280 W" - They are not the same thing

Then quoting me as saying his power supply was insufficient without noting the fact that I said I was wrong about this a couple of posts later:
"I know he has a goot unit, I have reitterated it many times and even said that his unit will be enough even while stress testing. I tried to end it there.
No you said:
His PSU can probably handle it for 99% of usage situations, but I wouldn't want to be doing anything that stressed the cpu and gpu at the same time on a regular basis. He would be pushing the envelope of what his power supply can handle." - I said after posting this that I was wrong on this and tried to end it. You are quoting a post from before I stated that I was wrong about his unit.

Clearly quoting out of context.

Agreed we will have to wait for the release. I understand that the sources are not 100%, but to me they are convincing especially because of the number.

I simply quoted TH as they were easiest. I think one of the sources was in Chinese.

I am going on the assumption that TH is a 4 letter word here and that enthusiasts are not going to be your typical user. Rather, people will want to be overclocking and benching among other things hence my point that the system could be pushed beyond 450 W.

I'm sure Corsiar do know their shit (outside customer support) but i would say that the real honour for his PSU goes to Seasonic. They use many different OEMs AFAIK, not all as good as each other.

 

[Dangman]

Peak power vs. Maximum power.
"I said that the 780 peaks at 230 W
No you said:
The maximum power draw of the 780 is 280 W" - They are not the same thing.

So how is maximum power draw not mean the same thing as peak power?

I
Then quoting me as saying his power supply was insufficient without noting the fact that I said I was wrong about this a couple of posts later:
"I know he has a goot unit, I have reitterated it many times and even said that his unit will be enough even while stress testing. I tried to end it there.
No you said:
His PSU can probably handle it for 99% of usage situations, but I wouldn't want to be doing anything that stressed the cpu and gpu at the same time on a regular basis. He would be pushing the envelope of what his power supply can handle." - I said after posting this that I was wrong on this and tried to end it. You are quoting a post from before I stated that I was wrong about his unit.

Your original statement implied that a 450W PSU would not be sufficient for his system. I disagree and that's what I was quoting in reference to.

Agreed we will have to wait for the release. I understand that the sources are not 100%, but to me they are convincing especially because of the number.

And to me they're not.

I am going on the assumption that TH is a 4 letter word here and that enthusiasts are not going to be your typical user. Rather, people will want to be overclocking and benching among other things hence my point that the system could be pushed beyond 450 W.

And I'm arguing that you have not provided sufficient evidence to show anyone that.

 

[silkstone]

1 -

"Peak: Crysis 2 at 1920x1200, Extreme profile, representing a typical gaming power draw. Highest single reading during the test.
"
Maximum: Furmark Stability Test at 1280x1024, 0xAA. This results in a very high no-game power-consumption that can typically be reached only with stress-testing applications. The Card was left running the stress test until power draw converged to a stable value. We disabled the power-limiting system on cards with power-limiting systems or configured it to the highest available setting - if possible. We also used the highest single reading from a Furmark run that was obtained by taking measurements faster than the power limit could kick in."

2 - In my statement that you were refuting with a quote I said that his PSU will be able to hold up to stress testing. If you wanted to refute a different statement, you would have quoted that statement.

3 - We will know in less than a week.

4 - I'm not sure what you are refuting. The fact that TH is a four letter word or that a system sporting a 760 and 4770K could be pushed beyond 450 W?

I'll assume the latter. There would be no way to prove it without having the parts. You also have very little evidence to show that they couldn't. In fact, it would be unfairly and impossible to ask you to prove that they couldn't.
I only say that the [H] review does not go into enough detail about power usage for the 780 that you are basing your numbers off. The TPU review that I am basing my numbers off seems a helluva lot more accurate.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

I know he has a goot unit, I have reitterated it many times and even said that his unit will be enough even while stress testing. I tried to end it there.

No, you keep twisting the words to make it seem like you're not in anyway wrong.

A lot of sites are saying that it is confirmed. Google is your friend here.

Do your own research and present it in the conversation, I'm not arguing for you.

I've never said it wouldn't. I said that the 780 peaks at 230 W and the 760 will peak closer to 200 W than 150 W. Add an overclock to that and you are going to hit 200 W, easily..

You said in two separate posts that his PSU will not be up to the task.

I blew a 450 W PSU by running an overclocked i5 2500K with HD6850.

Generally, nothing dramatic will happen when you start pushing them, they will just wear out faster and finally one of the rails will die.

I haven't seen any power ratings for a 760 yet, overclocked they could use anything from 120-220 W (max).

It's up to the OP, but if I were him i'd sell the 450 and go for a bigger one. He PSU should be up to it, but there won't be much headroom. As long as you don't start Folding while encoding videos all while overclocked you'll only be pushing the envelope 5% of the time.

You'd really be pushing the power draw and i'd imagine that when you get a 760, it will go over.

For the time being you might want to keep the PSU, but definitely budget for an upgrade.

Hahaha. You just said I am speculating and then come out with a massive speculation of your own and say they are facts

Massive speculation? That could be set in stone. Nvidia isn't going to release cards cheaper w/ less performance than their flagship card in the same family that uses more power. It's just not going to happen.

I have never said that a 760 would not use less than a 780 and I won;t even start at how inadequate the power test in that review is.

I doubt you even know what a real power test would consist of.

At least my speculation is based on real (unconfirmed) numbers.

The only assumption that I have made that is subjective is that an average user here would have more than a bare system and would be doing more than just gaming on their rig.

What's real unconfirmed numbers? So possible made up numbers that aren't confirmed? Contradicting much?

To reiterate for the 3rd time. The OP's PSU will be enough for his needs.
Give me a 760 and a 4770K and a good 450 W PSU would be causing system crashes or dead within a year, I'll let you sit at your desktop playing flash games all you want.

Yet you are still wrong. A 450W PSU will be fine. In fact, a solid 430W PSU will be fine.

*woosh* Over my head. All I can say, thank you sheer boredom.

My Cousin Vinny

 

[silkstone]

No, you keep twisting the words to make it seem like you're not in anyway wrong.

I'm not twisting any words. I'm untwisting quotes taken out of context.

Do your own research and present it in the conversation, I'm not arguing for you.

I did already.

You said in two separate posts that his PSU will not be up to the task.

And afterwards, I said that I was wrong.

Massive speculation? That could be set in stone. Nvidia isn't going to release cards cheaper w/ less performance than their flagship card in the same family that uses more power. It's just not going to happen.


What's real unconfirmed numbers? So possible made up numbers that aren't confirmed? Contradicting much?

I'm pretty sure "could be set in stone" is a contradiction unto itself. I've never argued that the 760 would use less power than the 780. I said the 780 peaks at 230 W when gaming.

I doubt you even know what a real power test would consist of.

Testing individual components in an array of different situations would be a start. Not just measuring from the wall.

Yet you are still wrong. A 450W PSU will be fine. In fact, a solid 430W PSU will be fine.

I believe that the system could use more than 450 W in certain situations.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

I'm not twisting any words. I'm untwisting quotes taken out of context.

Fair enough.

I did already.

I didn't finish reading the entire thread before I posted.

And afterwards, I said that I was wrong.

Fair enough

I'm pretty sure "could be set in stone" is a contradiction unto itself. I've never argued that the 760 would use less power than the 780. I said the 780 peaks at 230 W when gaming.

Well hold onto my quote. We'll see if the 760 requires more power than the 780 when it comes out. Consider it stone.

Testing individual components in an array of different situations would be a start. Not just measuring from the wall.

If you wanted individual component power draw, sure but that's a lot of work. Testing the complete system is far more easier and faster and if done right, accurate.

I believe that the system could use more than 450 W in certain situations.

Highly doubt that will ever happen unless the OP addded a zillion hard drives, fans and other peripherals. His planned upgrade wont come close. CPUs and GPUs are using less and less power these days compared to their counterparts in part due to "Going Green" that everyone wants to do, but also because more power generally means more heat dissipation needed.

However, when the components he is planning to upgrade are release, you're more than welcome to find some accurate, honest and legit benchmarks showing his system drawing more than 450W.

 

[silkstone]

I'll keep my eye out.

The real issue with every power supply is how much current the 12v rail can supply. Some PSUs will only rate 350W on that rail, some even less. In theory a system could draw less than 450 W on a 450 W PSU and still be overloaded.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/fullimage.php?image=42969 - This is a good unit but only rated at 360 W on that 12 V rail.

That 350 W is then spread between GPU, CPU, fans and whatever else you have running off that rail.
When you start overclocking both GPU and CPU then you can really dig into that rated power.

The OPs PSU is rated close to 400 W on the 12 V rail, it can deliver much more, this gives his unit a lot more headroom than you might get with other units.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

The real issue with every power supply is how much current the 12v rail can supply. Some PSUs will only rate 350W on that rail, some even less. In theory a system could draw less than 450 W on a 450 W PSU and still be overloaded.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/fullimage.php?image=42969 - This is a good unit but only rated at 360 W on that 12 V rail.

Reading labels is the last place you want to get information.

That 350 W is then spread between GPU, CPU, fans and whatever else you have running off that rail.
When you start overclocking both GPU and CPU then you can really dig into that rated power.

Read the rest of the review, that PSU passed 372W on both the 12v rails. Yes I said both, because it has two 12v rails; not one.

You even falsely claimed his 450W PSU was actually an Antec 500W unit. So why would you resort to reading labels knowing that the labels are just marketing?

The OPs PSU is rated close to 400 W on the 12 V rail, it can deliver much more, this gives his unit a lot more headroom than you might get with other units.

Well of course it can and will. That's why we state a solid 450W PSU that is capable of providing it's rated output.

 

[silkstone]

Reading labels is the last place you want to get information.



Read the rest of the review, that PSU passed 372W on both the 12v rails. Yes I said both, because it has two 12v rails; not one.

You even falsely claimed his 450W PSU was actually an Antec 500W unit. So why would you resort to reading labels knowing that the labels are just marketing?



Well of course it can and will. That's why we state a solid 450W PSU that is capable of providing it's rated output.

Due to the way that ratings work, most PSUs will be able to draw more power than rated. It does not mean you would want to run them higher than what they are rated for. Even so, I clearly said that the unit can provide 360 W on the 12 V rail. A whole 12 W extra isn't going to make much difference.

Some info about multi rails for you: http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990

I meant that the Antec and Corsair unit are identical apart from the caps. Saying rebadged, was apparently a bad choice of words. I think we have gone through this already.

The fact remains that you don;t actually have to draw the full 450 W in order to run your PSU over rating. It's another reason why it's important to review the power rating of individual components rather than just look at an overall, at the wall value.

 

[JimmiG]

Well if anything, this thread has convinced me to get a Kill-a-Watt, I actually don't know how much power my current system uses. I'm getting one this afternoon to check. Then I can also check when the new system is built.

Obviously nothing is known about the GTX 760 at this point. It might be the same as my GTX 460 (160W) or it may be higher/lower.

About the VX450, it is supposed to be one of the best 450W PSUs out there. I needed a cheap PSU but didn't want to skimp on quality. It also has a single 12V rail rather than two, which makes it harder to overload the 12V rail. With two rails at 12-17A each, it would be easy to go over ~150-200W on one of them.
However even if it can theoretically provide over 500W total, I would probably want to stay within the specifications ie <450W.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

Well if anything, this thread has convinced me to get a Kill-a-Watt, I actually don't know how much power my current system uses. I'm getting one this afternoon to check. Then I can also check when the new system is built.

While they are fun little toys to play with, they aren't 100% accurate when it comes to measuring power. Some power supplies mess with how they calculate the Watts, don't know much more than that.

Obviously nothing is known about the GTX 760 at this point. It might be the same as my GTX 460 (160W) or it may be higher/lower.

While the growing trend is using less power these days, sadly the 7xx series is just higher clocked 6xx series cards, while some things may be tweaked to get the best out of them, I wouldn't hold my breath on them being THAT low on power consumption, but they shouldn't be that high.

About the VX450, it is supposed to be one of the best 450W PSUs out there. I needed a cheap PSU but didn't want to skimp on quality. It also has a single 12V rail rather than two, which makes it harder to overload the 12V rail. With two rails at 12-17A each, it would be easy to go over ~150-200W on one of them.
However even if it can theoretically provide over 500W total, I would probably want to stay within the specifications ie <450W.

Nearly all PSUs have a single 12v source. They just claim multiple rails because of the way they distribute that power.

Your projected system will be well within <450W for sure. In fact, it will be a good 100W less even if
the power is the same as the more powerful 780 GTX and the less powerful, but also more power usage than the Haswell CPUs. You'll be fine.

Only replace the PSU if it's giving you issues, which from the sounds of it, it's fine.

 

[silkstone]

About the VX450, it is supposed to be one of the best 450W PSUs out there. I needed a cheap PSU but didn't want to skimp on quality. It also has a single 12V rail rather than two, which makes it harder to overload the 12V rail. With two rails at 12-17A each, it would be easy to go over ~150-200W on one of them.
However even if it can theoretically provide over 500W total, I would probably want to stay within the specifications ie <450W.

The specs give you 400 W at 12 V which is pretty good. I have seen units that give a full 450 W on the 12 V rail for a 450 W PSU, but they are usually Platinum models.
As you are taking the system apart when you upgrade, you might want to give the inside a quick blow with compressed air to clean the dust out given the age of the PSU.

Only replace the PSU if it's giving you issues, which from the sounds of it, it's fine.

I doubt it would have any problems, too. I'd still recommend doing a little stress testing if he's overclocking, to be 100% If it can go through OCCT, then gaming will never cause a problem.

You can test the components individually using a digital multimeter rather than a KAW. I have never done it personally though for fear of shaky hands and shorting something accidentally.

There is the Fluke 1735 that you can use, but I think it costs around $2000, compared to the KAW @ $20. I believe it's the APFC in PSUs that messes with a KAW's accuracy, but I don't know the whole story.

 

[JimmiG]

Well, here's a followup since my new system is built now, minus the GPU, which is still the GTX460 1GB. My CPU is currently overclocked to 4.3 GHz at 1.2V Manual voltage.

With the computer plugged into a a kill-a-watt, here are the results:

Idle: 87W
Aida64 FPU test: 215W
Aida 64 GPU + FPU: 309W
Aida 64 stress test with everything checked: 279W

OCCT Power Supply: 324W

 

[Deleted member 88227]

The KAW isn't very accurate.

 

[JimmiG]

The KAW isn't very accurate.

You reckon it's showing too high or too low? The PSU seems to be working less hard than with the old system. It's quieter and the exhaust is cooler. Of course I moved to a larger case which might explain that.

 

[E4g1e]

You reckon it's showing too high or too low? The PSU seems to be working less hard than with the old system. It's quieter and the exhaust is cooler. Of course I moved to a larger case which might explain that.

In general, that KAW is reading lower than the actual power draw from the wall. This is because the KAW ignores PFC factors in their measurements. So, while they measure power draw from a system that uses an older-design, non-PFC PSU fairly accurately, they consistently read significantly lower than reality when a modern, APFC-equipped PSU is used.

Thus, your newer system is actually drawing somewhat more wattage from the wall than what that KAW reads (or more specifically, the difference in power draw between your older and newer systems is quite a bit less than the KAW has made it out to be).

 

[JimmiG]

Well, just switched from the GTX 460 1GB to a GTX 670. I read that the GTX 760 might be $299 and slower than the GTX 670, and I also found a GTX 670 new for a very good price. So I decided to just go for it.

Idle power dropped by 9W to 78W.
OCCT PSU Burn increased from 324W to 392W.

Definitely wouldn't want to go higher with the VX450W, but I think it's perfectly fine as these are absolute "worst-case" figures. I will not be overclocking the video card further than the factory overclock, and I will leave my CPU at 4.3 GHz, since this allows me to use 1.20V, vs 1.25+ at 4.4 or 4.5 GHz. This helps keep both power draw and temps lower.

The system requirements of the GTX 670 call for a "500W PSU", with a minimum of 30A on the 12V rail, while my 450W provides 33A.

 

[silkstone]

It looks good. You really should overclock your video card a little. You can get some nice gains from a small overclock and your PSU should handle it well enough.

btw. Specs are confirmed for the 760:

GPU - GK104-225
CUDA Cores - 1152
TMUs - 96
ROPs - 32
Memory - 2 GB (4 GB non-reference versions expected as well)
Interface - 256-bit
Base Clock - 980 MHz
Boost Clock - 1033 MHz
Memory Clock - 1502 Mhz (6008 Mhz effective)
Memory Bandwidth - 192 GB/s
TDP - 170 W
Power Connectors - 2 x 6-pin
Release Date - June 25th

 

[silkstone]

Reviews are out for the 760. http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GeForce_GTX_760_Direct_Cu_II_OC/25.html

Maximum power consumption of 210 W a fair bit higher than the 670.

 

[Jorona]

Reviews are out for the 760. http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GeForce_GTX_760_Direct_Cu_II_OC/25.html

Maximum power consumption of 210 W a fair bit higher than the 670.

Way to cherry pick. It shows the stock 760 to be 3w higher then the stock 670. That Asus is OCed with a custom power limit. It even says it in the review.

 

[silkstone]

Happy coincidence, It was the first review that I came across.

I would always chose the worst-case scenario over the best any day. The point is that the 670 is closer to 200 W than 150 W and is more/just as power hungry than a 670.

 

[silkstone]

Happy coincidence, It was the first review that I came across.

I would always chose the worst-case scenario over the best, when considering the correct PSU to buy, any day. The point is that the 670 is closer to 200 W than 150 W and is more/just as power hungry than a 670 as is the 4770K. and I would not use a 450 W PSU unless it was able to use a full 450 W on the 12 V rail (which the op's is).

 

[Deleted member 88227]

The point you're trying to make doesn't even matter.

1. The OP bought a 670 to begin with.
2. Even if the OP used a 760, it would still be fine with the PSU he has.
3. A benchmark I am more inclined to trust here at HardOCP shows an entire system with a 760 consuming a mere 312W at the wall. Pretty sure that falls well within' the boundaries of a solid 450W PSU.

 

[silkstone]

1. It wasn't in response to the op's issue
2. He would. see above.
3. I can't say that I would trust the review until I knew what methods were being used to test it. For all you know, it is a KAW plugged into the wall that greatly underestimates the power usage. There is no scientific process in the way the power is tested beside and equipment list.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

1. It wasn't in response to the op's issue
2. He would. see above.
3. I can't say that I would trust the review until I knew what methods were being used to test it. For all you know, it is a KAW plugged into the wall that greatly underestimates the power usage. There is no scientific process in the way the power is tested beside and equipment list.

HardOCP knows PSUs better than most sites on the net, I can assure you that. Since you're new here, maybe you should do some more research on the methods used by HardOCP to see just what equipment they use when testing.

 

[silkstone]

I was a member of [H] from 1997, 15-16 years ago, ago when the site first started up (and people here were building water-cooled systems using car-radiators & GM was still around) until getting my e-mail hacked a few years ago.

I read reviews from everywhere on the web and know the difference between a good one and a bad one.
I'm sure there are some good reviews on PSUs here, better than most places. How on Earth you keep relating to irrelevant points is astounding. I was not talking about PSU reviews.

However, the section being referred to was the power requirements of a video card of which the review process is completely ambiguous. If you could clarify the process, even slightly, I would be grateful.

 

[powruser]

FWIW, I'm running a GTX 770 and i7 4770K (both at stock speeds) with a Corsair VX550 PSU and everything's fine. The PSU is from my old rig and is many years old. I'll be replacing it though because under load the fan gets very loud on it.