Corsair VX450 - keep or replace?

[JimmiG]

Hi all. Currently running the system in my sig using a Corsair VX 450W PSU. It has been working great since 2008, with overclocked Athlon X2, Phenom I and Phenom II CPUs and it has been extremely stable.

I'm planning to upgrade my system when Haswell comes out - I'll probably get the 4770K and I plan to overclock. I plan to keep the GTX460 until the GTX 760 comes out.

Will the 450W be enough? Are there any new connectors that this old PSU lacks? What about Haswell low-power sleep state I've been reading about? If it's not compatible, will it be possible to just disable this low-power sleep state? Seems it's really only useful for laptops.
Is the age (5 years) of the PSU an issue in itself?

 

[silkstone]

PSUs generally lose efficiency as they get older, they will also be able to output a little less power.

I'm not sure what the max power draw from the new haswell chips will be, but if you are overclocking, you can bet it will be around 125 W. The 460's draw a maximum of around 120 W.

You'd really be pushing the power draw and i'd imagine that when you get a 760, it will go over.

For the time being you might want to keep the PSU, but definitely budget for an upgrade.

The new sleep states will be disabled on your motherboard by default, you can try to enable them, it should work so long as you have some fans plugged into your mobo too.

 

[JimmiG]

Thanks. My Phenom II uses 125W at stock (3.2 GHz/1.35V), and it's overclocked. So it looks like Haswell would use less power even when overclocked.

For the time being you might want to keep the PSU, but definitely budget for an upgrade.

I think that's what I will do - buy the CPU+Mobo+RAM when Haswell comes out, and then buy a new PSU+video card a few months later

 

[Dangman]

You will be fine even with the GPU upgrade. No need to get a new PSU unless that Corsair is starting to cause problems. No, you're not actually going to push the limits of the PSU with a heavily OC'd Haswell and a GTX 760.

 

[silkstone]

He'll be pushing it though.

I blew a 450 W PSU by running an overclocked i5 2500K with HD6850.

Generally, nothing dramatic will happen when you start pushing them, they will just wear out faster and finally one of the rails will die.

I haven't seen any power ratings for a 760 yet, overclocked they could use anything from 120-220 W (max).

Worst case your looking at a maximum of maybe.
CPU - 150W (The SB chips will eat 200W full load overclocked)
Video Card - 200 W
Other components 100W

It's up to the OP, but if I were him i'd sell the 450 and go for a bigger one. He PSU should be up to it, but there won't be much headroom. As long as you don't start Folding while encoding videos all while overclocked you'll only be pushing the envelope 5% of the time.

 

[wtourist]

I doubt you have been running the VX 24/7 at high stress. Heat is the greatest enemy of power supplies. Age much less so. The only cravat is the cooling fan. Again this is more a matter of hours than age.
Corsair power supplies should shut down without damage to computer or power supply if fan or capacitors fail.
If your spendable income allows you could replace with a newer more efficient power supply. Since you are asking, The VX should be fine.

 

[Dangman]

I blew a 450 W PSU by running an overclocked i5 2500K with HD6850.

Then you either had A) a crappy 450W PSU that could not provide its actual rated wattage (i.e a 450W that could only provide 200W under real world conditions) or B) you had a defective 450W PSU. Those are the main reasons why a 450W PSU would blow with a relatively low power load like that.

It's up to the OP, but if I were him i'd sell the 450 and go for a bigger one. He PSU should be up to it, but there won't be much headroom. As long as you don't start Folding while encoding videos all while overclocked you'll only be pushing the envelope 5% of the time.

Here's this weeks' HardOCP GTX 780 power consumption figures:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/05/23/nvidia_geforce_gtx_780_video_card_review/8#.UaOlc7ViSqc

The system is composed of:
Core i7 3770K OC'd to 4.8Ghz
Asus P8Z77 WS
WD 640GB Hard drive
8GB of RAM

Even with the GTX 780, the system stayed at 351W. Considering that Haswell supposedly uses less power than the Ivy Bridge CPUs and that a future GTX 760 will use less power than the GTX 780, it's fair to say that a solid 450W PSU will have more than enough headroom for the OP. The Corsair VX450 is a solid PSU considering that it was made by Seasonic and that it was well reviewed by sites that did proper PSU reviews (HardOCP, JonnyGuru.com, etc)

 

[silkstone]

It died because I was running an overclocked CPU with an overclocked video card and doing lots of video encoding along with some heavy gpu stress work. It would regularly bump over 450 W.
It wasn't an amazing PSU, but it wasn't a generic one either. I'm pretty sure the inside was caked in dust too as I had it a good few years and I used to be a heavy smoker.

You'll also notice he says that "Our system is very lean with only one optical drive and one hard drive being powered. Total system wattage at idle without video card is 67W."

If they were to stree the CPU at the same time as the GPU in the test, that power draw would jump way over 350 W.

Like I said before. His PSU can probably handle it for 99% of usage situations, but I wouldn't want to be doing anything that stressed the cpu and gpu at the same time on a regular basis. He would be pushing the envelope of what his power supply can handle.

Heat and running it at a high power draw will both kill it faster. Even good caps will age, but only slowly when not running at a high load.

 

[Dangman]

It died because I was running an overclocked CPU with an overclocked video card and doing lots of video encoding along with some heavy gpu stress work. It would regularly bump over 450 W.
It wasn't an amazing PSU, but it wasn't a generic one either. I'm pretty sure the inside was caked in dust too as I had it a good few years and I used to be a heavy smoker.

And what PSU did you have exactly? And how exactly where you measuring the power usage of the PC? The OP hasn't mentioned being a heavy smoker.

You'll also notice he says that "Our system is very lean with only one optical drive and one hard drive being powered. Total system wattage at idle without video card is 67W."

If they were to stree the CPU at the same time as the GPU in the test, that power draw would jump way over 350 W.

They were playing games that did in fact stress the CPU at the same time. Not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP's planned system would use less power than the ~350W of the HardOCP system. So the OP is still safe.

Like I said before. His PSU can probably handle it for 99% of usage situations, but I wouldn't want to be doing anything that stressed the cpu and gpu at the same time on a regular basis. He would be pushing the envelope of what his power supply can handle.

The OP so far has not mentioned anything in regards to activities that would significantly and massively stress the PC. So far, the only indication of his planned usage is gaming since he's considering a video card upgrade to the GTX 760. The HardOCP figures shows that under gaming conditions, a system that draws significantly more power than the OP's proposed system would draw around 350W. Considering that a Haswell system + GTX 760 would draw less power than the HardOCP system, it's fair to say that the OP's current PSU is more than enough power for gaming usage.

 

[silkstone]

When overclocked their system went over 400 W.

He said he was getting a 4770k, which would be similar to the 3770k in the review.

He will come out under the rating of the PSU, but he won't have a lot of head room and will go over it if he runs his computer at full load. Am I wrong?

 

[Dangman]

When overclocked their system went over 400 W.

He said he was getting a 4770k, which would be similar to the 3770k in the review.

He will come out under the rating of the PSU, but he won't have a lot of head room and will go over it if he runs his computer at full load. Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong based on currently available information. Only when HardOCP overclocked the GTX 780 did they go over 400W. The CPU was already overclocked to begin with. The 4770K will use less power than the 3770K. Again, you're forgetting the fact that the GTX 760 will use LESS power than the GTX 780. Nor has the OP mentioned anything specific about overclocking the GPU.

 

[silkstone]

He said he plans to overclock.

The GTX 760 will use less power, but they were also on a lean system doing only gaming. If they were to fully load the cpu and gpu, it would have come out way over 400 W.
If he fully loads his system he will come out over 400W, easy.

I'm not arguing about what he is or isn;t going to use his system for. It's for him to decide whether or not to replace the PSU.

An 3770k uses over 200 W when fully stressed and overclocked!: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/04/23/intel-core-i7-3770k-review/8

It isn't hard to imagine the rest of his system (including future GTX 760) will use over 200W when overclocked and at load.

For gaming use, there should be enough headroom. If he is going to be stressing the system, then it would go over.

How is that wrong?

 

[Dangman]

He said he plans to overclock.

Yes but from my experience and from what I've seen here on the forums, most people tend to only overclock the CPU and not the GPU. Until the OP has said otherwise, that's the assumption I'm going with.

but they were also on a lean system doing only gaming

Yes but an extra hard drive or two isn't going to make that much of a massive difference in the idle power or load power during gaming.

An 3770k uses over 200 W when fully stressed and overclocked!: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/04/23/intel-core-i7-3770k-review/8

Incorrect: The whole system plus the 3770K uses over 200W when OC'd and when the CPU is at full load. Nowhere in that article did it state that the power consumption figures were solely for the CPU. In addition, note the GPU used in the test setup: It was a GTX 590, a video card known for relatively higher power usage even at idle.

For gaming use, there should be enough headroom. If he is going to be stressing the system, then it would go over.

How is that wrong?

It's wrong in the sense that you're trying to tell the OP to upgrade his PSU for a situation that he has not mentioned at all. It's wrong because you're not factoring the lower power usage of the 4770K. It's wrong due to the fact that you were using incorrect figures to justify your position.

 

[silkstone]

I am not trying to tell the OP to upgrade his PSU.

What I am saying is that running at full load, he will probably be over rating (if he also overclocks his GPU).

You are assuming best case scenario. I am assuming worst case. The only way to know for sure is to use a kill-a-watt at the wall and take 80-90% of that value.

Personally, I like to know that my psu can take any load I throw at it, but that is me. The decision is with the OP. I don't think you can state he does or doesn't need to upgrade without testing.

I never stated he should, I even said he should hang on to it for the time being, but budget for an upgrade in the future.

The PSU that I had and that died was a crappy Coolermaster. I don't think it could output 450W at 30C, but it wasn;t a no-name brand.
I was runny a heftily overclocked e8400 and a 4850 for a good long while and did lots of encoding along with Folding. Nothing dramatic happened, and it still works. The 12V rail can output very little power now tho so something died. I haven't opened it to check for dead capacitors or the like, it was just easier to get a bigger, better one.

Edit - According to reviews, his unit is really a rebranded 500 W unit that is able to still work well at 570 W. http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Corsair-VX450W-Power-Supply-Review/540/10
So it's all moot anyway. 500 W would be enough for anything. Although, I still stand by my opinion that the system could push 450 W.

 

[Dangman]

I am not trying to tell the OP to upgrade his PSU.
....
I never stated he should, I even said he should hang on to it for the time being, but budget for an upgrade in the future.

Really? Then what did you mean by this post then?:

For the time being you might want to keep the PSU, but definitely budget for an upgrade.

That still sounds like you're telling the OP to upgrade his PSU.

What I am saying is that running at full load, he will probably be over rating (if he also overclocks his GPU).

And I'm saying that you're wrong based on currently available and usable data.

You are assuming best case scenario. I am assuming worst case. The only way to know for sure is to use a kill-a-watt at the wall and take 80-90% of that value.

Nope. Even KAW can be inaccurate. The problem is your worst case scenario numbers are wholly inaccurate since you were trying to state earlier that an OC'd 3770K uses more than 200W+ by itself when the figures you provided were actually for the entire system, not just the 3770K alone. Not to mention that you never factored in the fact that the 4770K would use less power.

The PSU that I had and that died was a crappy Coolermaster. I don't think it could output 450W at 30C, but it wasn;t a no-name brand.

Doesn't matter if it's not a no-name brand: If it can't provide its rated wattage under real world conditions (i.e 40C to 50C), it's still a crappy PSU no matter what regardless of brand. Since that Coolermaster is nowhere near the level of quality and output as the Corsair VX450, I don't see the point of you trying to use it as evidence earlier that a 450W would be pushing it.

So it's all moot anyway. 500 W would be enough for anything. Although, I still stand by my opinion that the system could push 450 W.

And I stand by my opinion that you're wrong.

 

[silkstone]

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/05/23/nvidia_geforce_gtx_780_video_card_review/8#.UaTf0kC6t_x

These are gaming figures, with a non-overclocked video card. I don't see how it is so unfathomable that they could push 450 with a different system while benchmarking/encoding/folding. They even say that when they overclock the card it goes over 400 W.

Hell, with the 7 fans in my HAF that would add another 20-30W on top of the rating, plug in some USB devices and that a few more watts. Add some HDDs and you could easily make up 50 W right there.

 

[Jorona]

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/05/23/nvidia_geforce_gtx_780_video_card_review/8#.UaTf0kC6t_x

These are gaming figures, with a non-overclocked video card. I don't see how it is so unfathomable that they could push 450 with a different system while benchmarking/encoding/folding. They even say that when they overclock the card it goes over 400 W.

Hell, with the 7 fans in my HAF that would add another 20-30W on top of the rating, plug in some USB devices and that a few more watts. Add some HDDs and you could easily make up 50 W right there.

You're Delusional man. Stop arguing with the editors if you obviously have no friggan clue what you're talking about.

CoolerMaster's low end PSUs blow when you look at them funny. You're experience has no basis to conclude that his 450 wont be enough.

He's going to be around 300-350ish watts. His 450 will be more then sufficient.

 

[jinhur]

u should be good till u get ur 670. even Oc ur cpu sholdnt be a problem.
u might wanna get something a little stronger like a 550 when u get ur 760, or even jus a 750 to future proff considering the prices of some 500 watt psus

 

[Mav451]

I would probably err on the side of caution and plan to replace, but it wouldn't necessarily be a hard rule (har har). I do think getting the Capstone would be something to keep in mind as a purchase in the near future. It is currently at a good price after all *shrug*.

http://www.amazon.com/Rosewill-CAPS...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B006BCKDGW

http://camelcamelcamel.com/Rosewill...CAPSTONE-450/product/B006BCKDGW?active=amazon
$59 shipped is a fair price I think, but I leave it up to the OP.

 

[silkstone]

The TDP for the 770 is 230 W http://www.techpowerup.com/img/13-05-29/180b.jpg

The 760 will be using the same chip and so the power draw should be very similar

http://videocardz.com/30238/nvidia-geforce-gk-104-specification-leaked

They even recommend a 600 W PSU to run the card. I can't imagine that they would overestimate by more than 25%

The 4770K also has a higher TDP than the 3770K http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i7/Intel-Core i7-4770K.html

An overclocked system with 3770K is 220 W with a bare system runing prime adding a 220 W video card puts it close to the 450 W rating.

In the tests, granted, the 590 might use 50 W idle so the 3770K + mobo + ram might use onlt 190 W overclocked. But add some fans HDDs and USB devices and reaching 450 W is not that far away.

His current CPU will be using +200 W when not overclocked,

You might be fine for gaming, but most people here are enthusiasts and people running the odd benchmark now and then that putt 100% load on the system would not be uncommon.

When the manufactures say you need a 600 W PSU for the card and I say to think about putting money aside for an upgrade, I don't think that is bad advice.

And before you say, no, Nvidia are not anticipating absolubtly worst case power draw for a system as they do not factor in overclocking into their recommendations (an FX-8150 system can use over 500 W when overclocked)
His current chip uses 125 W at load non-overclocked (measured before the VRM) http://www.lostcircuits.com/mambo//...task=view&id=58&Itemid=1&limit=1&limitstart=6
The 4770K will use less power, but he still has to run it on his his 955BE first. His system will be using close to 400 W at load as is. http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2011/10/31/the-best-100-processor/17

Johnny guru recommends a 450-500 W minimum PSU for his GTX 460 and the 760 will use, maybe 50 W more power. 450 W is the bare minimum to be running the card on.

 

[JimmiG]

Interesting

I'm not planning on doing any folding or similar. It will be used for gaming and general use (web browsing etc.).

The specs for the 450VX are:
3.3V and 5V: 130W maximum combined
12V: 396W max

 

[emosh73]

keep it

 

[Dangman]

The TDP for the 770 is 230 W http://www.techpowerup.com/img/13-05-29/180b.jpg

The 760 will be using the same chip and so the power draw should be very similar

http://videocardz.com/30238/nvidia-geforce-gk-104-specification-leaked

Both of those links have not been confirmed to be 100% legitimate. Considering how inaccurate rumors have been in the past in regards to GPU releases, most information should taken with a grain of salt. As for the TDP bit, I shall cover that in the next section.

The 4770K also has a higher TDP than the 3770K http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i7/Intel-Core i7-4770K.html

TDP does not mean max power draw as noted by Intel:

It is important to note that thermal design power is the maximum thermal power the processor will
dissipate, but not the same as the maximum power the processor can consume. It is possible for the
processor to consume more than the TDP power for a short period of time that isn’t “thermally
significant”. For example, a processor might consume slightly more power than the rated TDP value for
say one microsecond…but then consume less power than the rated TDP value for a long period of time.

They even recommend a 600 W PSU to run the card. I can't imagine that they would overestimate by more than 25%

Yes they do. It's very common practice for video card manufacturers to overstate power supply recommendations considering the sheer amount of crappy PSUs out there. The higher the wattage, the higher the chance the PSU is capable of actually providing the real power needed for the PC. Even then it's not always 100% fool proof as evident your Coolermaster PSU. Any computer enthusiast worth his or her salt should know this very basic fact.

So again: Any time a video card manufacturer recommends a PSU, more than likely it's an inflated recommendation to account for the sheer number of crappy PSUs out there.

An overclocked system with 3770K is 220 W with a bare system running prime adding a 220 W video card puts it close to the 450 W rating.

In the tests, granted, the 590 might use 50 W idle so the 3770K + mobo + ram might use onlt 190 W overclocked. But add some fans HDDs and USB devices and reaching 450 W is not that far away.

Your math is off. Even if we subtract the idle power of the GTX 590, that would come out to 170W for the rest of the system including the HDD. In addition, outside of the initial turn-on load, HDDs don't use that much power nor doe USB devices and fans use up that much power unless you have a dozen or more of those devices.

In addition, from the same PDF file linked above:

Estimating server power based on a worst case TDP specifications will
result in over estimating server power. Intel and AMD both agree on this point: “It is of little value to
measure power consumption by only looking at the spec sheets for different components, adding the
totals together, because these generally only report the maximum power consumption.

So in other words, stop using the TDP figures when you're doing the power consumption math.

When the manufactures say you need a 600 W PSU for the card and I say to think about putting money aside for an upgrade, I don't think that is bad advice..

It is bad advice when you're using poor, unconfirmed, unreliable, and/or mismatched data to fit your worldview.

 

[silkstone]

Other websites reccommend a 450 W PSU for his current card.

Multiple sources say that the 760/770 will be a 200+ W part.

TDP is not accurate to go off, I know, it is usually an underestimate of the amount of power that can be used at full load especially when overclocking.

"The thermal design power (TDP), sometimes called thermal design point, refers to the maximum amount of power the cooling system in a computer is required to dissipate. The TDP is typically not the most power the chip could ever draw . . . but rather the maximum power that it would draw when running "real applications". - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power

Nvidia is not Intel or AMD. Intel's quoted TDP is usually less than the total power draw compared with full load. AMD calculate theirs differently and is often closer.
NVidia's quoted TDP is almost always pretty much spot on the peak power consumption of a card.

Don't say TDP and power usage are not related, you can not get more power out than you put in (unless you have invented a perpetual motion machine)

The OP was asking about a card that has not been released yet. Looking at leaked, multiple sources is the only way to get any information about power draw at the moment. It's better than pulling numbers out of thin air.

Every other site I have seen says that 450 W is the recommended minimum for him to be running his system at at the moment. 'If' the GTX 670 is 50 W more power hungry than his current system, which by all indications it seems to be. If you factor in overclocking it is not a stretch to say a 450 W PSU would be pushing the limits.

I want to re-itterate again that it is moot as his PSU is really a 500 W part, not 450 W. I'll concede that much. What I'm saying is that the GTX 760 + 450 W PSU would be less than ideal.

 

[Dangman]

Other websites reccommend a 450 W PSU for his current card.

And are those websites actually reliable sources that totally understand the difference between manufacturer recommended and real world PSU recommendations? Hell, are the sites you're using actually reputable in general?

Multiple sources say that the 760/770 will be a 200+ W part.

Multiple unconfirmed sources still means nothing. Just because multiple sites says something is happening doesn't necessarily mean something is happening.

Nvidia is not Intel or AMD. Intel's quoted TDP is usually less than the total power draw compared with full load. AMD calculate theirs differently and is often closer.
NVidia's quoted TDP is almost always pretty much spot on the peak power consumption of a card.

Unless you have actual reputable source backing up what you just said, I'm just going to assume that what you've said is wholly inaccurate.

Don't say TDP and power usage are not related, you can not get more power out than you put in

Never said TDP and power usage were not related. What I said, and I quote:

TDP does not mean max power draw

The OP was asking about a card that has not been released yet. Looking at leaked, multiple sources is the only way to get any information about power draw at the moment. It's better than pulling numbers out of thin air.

Those "leaked" sources are just as reliable as pulling numbers out of thin air since there is no confirmation whatsoever that those are accurate. At least when I used numbers, I based them on currently available power draw tests of the GTX 780.

Every other site I have seen says that 450 W is the recommended minimum for him to be running his system at at the moment. 'If' the GTX 670 is 50 W more power hungry than his current system, which by all indications it seems to be. If you factor in overclocking it is not a stretch to say a 450 W PSU would be pushing the limits.

And how many of those sites are actually legitimate sources that can do accurate or even relatively accurate power draw or have experts on the power draw of a component?

I want to re-itterate again that it is moot as his PSU is really a 500 W part, not 450 W. I'll concede that much. What I'm saying is that the GTX 760 + 450 W PSU would be less than ideal.

For someone who kept trying to aim for the "worst-case" scenario or trying to err on the side of caution, it's very odd that you would call a 450W PSU a 500W PSU when it should not be. Here's the issue: Corsair specifically rated that PSU for 450W since it could guarantee that it could run 450W. There is absolutely no guarantee that the 450VX can maintain being run at 500W for long periods of time The HS review was just a short-term test at 500W+. So in other words, judge a PSU by its actual rating, not the rating it can do in short run tests. Also notice that no other proper PSU review site does those overload tests. That should tell how useful those "overload" numbers are.

 

[silkstone]

The HW secrets site says that it is a rebadged Antec Earthwatts 500 W supply with better caps.

Johhny guru seems to think 450 W is a minimum for a GTX460: http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_gtx_460_review_(roundup),13.html

Fairly reputable, I don;t want to go through my history so you could just google "GTX 460 power requirements" and you get a lot of hits.

Compare the TDP of all the Nvidia cards and look at a site like TPU for their peak power draw, they are very similar.

I am making an assumption that it is going to be a 200 W part, time will tell if I am right or not. But it is based on something more than just looking at what the 780 can draw while gaming.

 

[Dangman]

The HW secrets site says that it is a rebadged Antec Earthwatts 500 W supply with better caps.

Misleading statement: HS specifically said:

After opening this power suppy we found out that internally it is identical to Antec Earthwatts, but using better electrolytic capacitors.
....
As we mentioned, internally this power is indentical to Antec Earthwatts 500W, but using better electrolytic capacitors

Nowhere did HS say that the Corsair VX450 is a rebadged version of the Antec Earthwatts 500W. That's inaccurate as Corsair does not get that PSU from Antec: They got it from Seasonic. It's like saying a person is a re-badged version of their brother. A more accurate statement would have been: The Corsair and Antec share similar designs but the Corsair has better caps. Saying something is re-badged implies that they are the original source.

Johhny guru seems to think 450 W is a minimum for a GTX460: http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_gtx_460_review_(roundup),13.html

That's not JonnyGuru's website. JonnyGuru's website, surprise surprise, is www.jonnyguru.com/. Guru3D is not related whatsoever to JonnyGuru. They may have Guru in the name but the sites are totally different. Another example of you makign a misleading statement.

Not to mention that the Core i7 965 CPU Guru3D used for their testing uses significantly more power than Intel's SB, IB, or Haswell CPUs. That can and will skew the results and therefore the recommendations. Hell they even mention:

On average we are using roughly 50 to 100 Watts more than a standard PC due to higher CPU clock settings, water-cooling, additional cold cathode lights etc.

In other words, that link would be useful if the OP had the exact same or similar system. But he does not. Nor is his future system going to be similar.

I am making an assumption that it is going to be a 200 W part, time will tell if I am right or not. But it is based on something more than just looking at what the 780 can draw while gaming.

More? It is undeniable fact that the any lower model card released after the GTX 780 will use less power than the GTX 780. As such, using that as a metric is far more accurate than assuming numbers.

 

[silkstone]

There is nothing misleading about saying it is a rebadged Antec 500 W. They didn't say it was similar, they said that apart from the (better) caps that it was identical. Is it then just coincidence that 2 PSU's made by the same OEM are Identical. Seasonic designed 1 PSU for Antec and a different one for corsair, by change they are the same, they did in fact use a different design?

Fair enough. I thought it was Johnny guru. I dont know how reputable guru3d is. They did say an average system on their review so it is not only useful to someone with the exact same system. But, again, you are right, I do not know how reputable guru3d is.

The 780 is based on a GK110 and the 770&760 are both GK104 parts. You would be far better using the numbers from a more similar card, the 670. Given that the 670's max power draw is 170W on paper, It would not be surprising to find that the 760 is a higher clocked version with a slightly higher power draw.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

Just pointing out that most of those power figures are measured at the wall. Since it takes power to convert power, you should subtract ~10% (Assuming its a decent PSU they're using with a 90% efficiency rating)

Therefore, if it's measuring 400W at the wall, only 360W is output by the PSU.

For the record, 450W will be plenty for the OP.

 

[silkstone]

Aye, a lot of the reviews use crazy efficient PSUs though. I think some that i linked were 95% efficient or so (depending on load ofc)

 

[Deleted member 88227]

Aye, a lot of the reviews use crazy efficient PSUs though. I think some that i linked were 95% efficient or so (depending on load ofc)

HardOCP's go to PSU lately has been the Enermax MaxRevo 1350W, you can see it on the test that Danny posted of the 780 GTX.

You can then see the test they conducted with that PSU here.

Under 400W, it had an 88.72% efficiency.

If an overclocked 780 GTX w/ overclocked Ivy Bridge CPU was only drawing 351W at the wall, that means the PSU was only feeding the components 309W.

Therefore, as Danny has said and proven multiple times over, a solid 450W PSU will be more than enough for a Haswell + 460 & Haswell + 760 setup.

 

[silkstone]

I don;t know he is planning on running the 760 on the P2 first or is buying both together. The last few posts I was thinking he was getting the 760 first.

When gaming with a i7 3770k, 300W is semi-reasonable, I find it difficult to believe that that is the absolubte maximum draw though.

Other places put the 780 peak power consumption at 230 W (while gaming) http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Gigabyte/GeForce_GTX_780_OC/24.html
The methods they use are much more reliable than measuring at the wall.
The 760, so far, has been indicated to be a higher clocked 670. Given that the 670's peak power draw while gaming is 150 W, i don't see it as being far fetched that the 760 be closer to 200 W peak than to 150 W.

It's a little hard to believe that the rest of the system will only peak at 70 W.

The maximum power draw of the 780 is 280 W, but you are only likely to encounter that kind of power draw when benchmarking/folding/in furmark.

If i were buying a PSU for myself, I would use the maximum value as I do use stress/stability testing applications when testing the overclock on my video card or cpu. I do benchmark, I do overclock, I do encode video and I have been known to do folding and bitcoin mining.

I had assumed the majority of people here were enthusiasts and would do similar things with their rigs. Personally, I wast enough power so I can do anything I want with my rig without having to worry if it'll shut down unexpectedly.

If you are not overclocking, not benchmarking or stress testing, not encoding and do not have many usb devices with HDDs/SSDs . . . then ok. 450 W is enough. Being plenty is subjective.

 

[punisher]

All I know is if I ever get arrested (due to mistaken identity) in a small Southern town for shooting a convenience store clerk, I want Danny Bui as my attorney. Seriously.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

I don;t know he is planning on running the 760 on the P2 first or is buying both together. The last few posts I was thinking he was getting the 760 first.

Can't read?

I'm planning to upgrade my system when Haswell comes out - I'll probably get the 4770K and I plan to overclock. I plan to keep the GTX460 until the GTX 760 comes out.

He said and I quote, he intends to buy a 4770k and he will use the 460 GTX until the 760 GTX comes out.

When gaming with a i7 3770k, 300W is semi-reasonable, I find it difficult to believe that that is the absolubte maximum draw though.

Even if, hypothetically speaking, that is not the maximum power draw and some other stressful application on the computer will cause it to peak higher, it wont sustain those peak Watts long enough to matter. It also wont peak beyond what that PSU is capable of. The PSU the OP has is a good unit. It's not some crappy PSU like a Coolermaster.

Other places put the 780 peak power consumption at 230 W (while gaming) http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Gigabyte/GeForce_GTX_780_OC/24.html
The methods they use are much more reliable than measuring at the wall.
The 760, so far, has been indicated to be a higher clocked 670. Given that the 670's peak power draw while gaming is 150 W, i don't see it as being far fetched that the 760 be closer to 200 W peak than to 150 W.

That's purely speculation. I don't think the 760 will have that much of a draw, that would mean the 770 would be even higher and nearly identical to the 780. Doubtful. We wont know until they are released.

You should consider doing some research on power draw benchmarks and the equipment used to measure them. The 780 GTX will use more power than the 760 GTX, so if his planned system will work fine with a 3770k and 780 GTX, his PSU is fine.

I also highly doubt the 760 GTX will have that much power draw, that would put the 770 GTX in such a small window, but even if it does... he will still be fine.

I had assumed the majority of people here were enthusiasts and would do similar things with their rigs.

If you are not overclocking, not benchmarking or stress testing and not encoding, then ok. 450 W is enough. Being plenty is subjective.

Your entire argument is based on assumption. Wait until the 760 GTX comes out and some reputable review sites do some benchmarks on it. Until then... these are the facts.

A 450W PSU will work fine with an overclocked 3770k + 780 GTX (overclocked as well).
The 760 will have less power draw than the 780 GTX.
The 4770k will have less or equal power draw to the 3770k.

Therefore, if 450W is good for a 3770k + 780, it will be fine with a 4770k and a 760 GTX with room to spare.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

All I know is if I ever get arrested (due to mistaken identity) in a small Southern town for shooting a convenience store clerk, I want Danny Bui as my attorney. Seriously.

Good movie, that is.

 

[silkstone]

Can't read?

I can. That's why I pointed out my error.

Even if, hypothetically speaking, that is not the maximum power draw and some other stressful application on the computer will cause it to peak higher, it wont sustain those peak Watts long enough to matter. It also wont peak beyond what that PSU is capable of. The PSU the OP has is a good unit. It's not some crappy PSU like a Coolermaster.

It depends on the application. Stability testing regularly put both the gpu and cpu at 100% load. Encoding will put the CPU at 100% if you are running a game in the background, then yes, power draw will be higher.

I know he has a goot unit, I have reitterated it many times and even said that his unit will be enough even while stress testing. I tried to end it there.

That's purely speculation. I don't think the 760 will have that much of a draw, that would mean the 770 would be even higher and nearly identical to the 780. Doubtful. We wont know until they are released.

A lot of sites are saying that it is confirmed. Google is your friend here.

You should consider doing some research on power draw benchmarks and the equipment used to measure them. The 780 GTX will use more power than the 760 GTX, so if his planned system will work fine with a 3770k and 780 GTX, his PSU is fine.

I've never said it wouldn't. I said that the 780 peaks at 230 W and the 760 will peak closer to 200 W than 150 W. Add an overclock to that and you are going to hit 200 W, easily..

Your entire argument is based on assumption. Wait until the 760 GTX comes out and some reputable review sites do some benchmarks on it. Until then... these are the facts.

A 450W PSU will work fine with an overclocked 3770k + 780 GTX (overclocked as well).
The 760 will have less power draw than the 780 GTX.
The 4770k will have less or equal power draw to the 3770k.

Therefore, if 450W is good for a 3770k + 780, it will be fine with a 4770k and a 760 GTX with room to spare.

Hahaha. You just said I am speculating and then come out with a massive speculation of your own and say they are facts

I have never said that a 760 would not use less than a 780 and I won;t even start at how inadequate the power test in that review is.

At least my speculation is based on real (unconfirmed) numbers.

The only assumption that I have made that is subjective is that an average user here would have more than a bare system and would be doing more than just gaming on their rig.

The OP has stated that he will be mainly gaming on his rig, that was well after the debate/argument began.

To reiterate for the 3rd time. The OP's PSU will be enough for his needs.
Give me a 760 and a 4770K and a good 450 W PSU would be causing system crashes or dead within a year, I'll let you sit at your desktop playing flash games all you want.

 

[Jorona]

It depends on the application. Stability testing regularly put both the gpu and cpu at 100% load. Encoding will put the CPU at 100% if you are running a game in the background, then yes, power draw will be higher.

I know he has a goot unit, I have reitterated it many times and even said that his unit will be enough even while stress testing. I tried to end it there.



A lot of sites are saying that it is confirmed. Google is your friend here.



I've never said it wouldn't. I said that the 780 peaks at 230 W and the 760 will peak closer to 200 W than 150 W. Add an overclock to that and you are going to hit 200 W, easily..



Hahaha. You just said I am speculating and then come out with a massive speculation of your own and say they are facts

I have never said that a 760 would not use less than a 780 and I won;t even start at how inadequate the power test in that review is.

At least my speculation is based on real (unconfirmed) numbers.

The only assumption that I have made that is subjective is that an average user here would have more than a bare system and would be doing more than just gaming on their rig.

The OP has stated that he will be mainly gaming on his rig, that was well after the debate/argument began.

To reiterate for the 3rd time. The OP's PSU will be enough for his needs.
Give me a 760 and a 4770K and a good 450 W PSU would be causing system crashes or dead within a year, I'll let you sit at your desktop playing flash games all you want.

I'm just gobsmacked at how you can't seem to just admit you're wrong.

Lead a horse to water...

 

[Dangman]

There is nothing misleading about saying it is a rebadged Antec 500 W. They didn't say it was similar, they said that apart from the (better) caps that it was identical. Is it then just coincidence that 2 PSU's made by the same OEM are Identical. Seasonic designed 1 PSU for Antec and a different one for corsair, by change they are the same, they did in fact use a different design?

You're not understanding the point and I'm going to repeat again to make sure that you actually what I am saying: When you said "rebadged Antec Earthwatts 500 W supply with better caps", that implies that Corsair took the design from Antec. That is false. Corsair took the design from Seasonic. Do you understand the problem now? Yes they are identical designs. But it's wholly misleading to say the Corsair is a rebadged Antec since that implies Antec is the source for the PSU when it is not. The source is Seasonic. Therefore when you say the Corsair is a rebadged Seasonic, that says that the source of the PSU is Seasonic. Get it?

Fair enough. I thought it was Johnny guru. I dont know how reputable guru3d is. They did say an average system on their review so it is not only useful to someone with the exact same system.

Huh? No they said:

Our normal system power consumption is higher than your average system.

I had assumed the majority of people here were enthusiasts and would do similar things with their rigs. Personally, I wast enough power so I can do anything I want with my rig without having to worry if it'll shut down unexpectedly.

Yes there are plenty of enthusiasts here that do similar things with their rigs. However considering that many [H]Members play online games. As such, they're not going to impact their chances of winning a game by having the system do bit-coin, folding@home, or video encoding at the same time.

It depends on the application. Stability testing regularly put both the gpu and cpu at 100% load. Encoding will put the CPU at 100% if you are running a game in the background, then yes, power draw will be higher.

I know he has a goot unit, I have reitterated it many times and even said that his unit will be enough even while stress testing. I tried to end it there.

No you said:

His PSU can probably handle it for 99% of usage situations, but I wouldn't want to be doing anything that stressed the cpu and gpu at the same time on a regular basis. He would be pushing the envelope of what his power supply can handle.

Not to mention that you kept saying that the OP should replace his PSU.

A lot of sites are saying that it is confirmed. Google is your friend here.

No it's on you to provide said confirmation. It's a total and lazy cop-out to have us prove YOUR position when we're the ones that challenged it.

I said that the 780 peaks at 230 W

No you said:

The maximum power draw of the 780 is 280 W

To reiterate for the 3rd time. The OP's PSU will be enough for his needs.
Give me a 760 and a 4770K and a good 450 W PSU would be causing system crashes or dead within a year, I'll let you sit at your desktop playing flash games all you want.

To reiterate for the 3rd or whatever time this is: No one is disputing the first sentence. But that last sentence is bloody wrong. And that's where we are disputing. Not to mention that earlier you kept saying that OP should replace his PSU.

All I know is if I ever get arrested (due to mistaken identity) in a small Southern town for shooting a convenience store clerk, I want Danny Bui as my attorney. Seriously.

Good movie, that is.

*woosh* Over my head. All I can say, thank you sheer boredom.

 

[silkstone]

You're not understanding the point and I'm going to repeat again to make sure that you actually what I am saying: When you said "rebadged Antec Earthwatts 500 W supply with better caps", that implies that Corsair took the design from Antec. That is false. Corsair took the design from Seasonic.

1- No Seasonic provided the power supply to both Corsiar and Antec to put their own 'badge" on. Semantics of grammar aside, it is a near identical unit to the 500 W Antec PSU.

2- No, They said:

"On your average system the card requires you to have a 450 to 500 Watt power supply unit."

They were not talking about their own system, it is quite clear what ön your average system" means.

3 - I clearly said that it can handle 99% of situations before I realized that his PSU could easily provide 500 W of power 24/7.
Don't misquote me and try to twist my words.

As soon as I realized that fact I admitted I was wrong about his PSU and that it would handle the system.

4 - Peak power draw and maximum power draw are 2 quite different things. Are you deliberately misquoting me or do you not understand the difference? I provided a clear source with the difference explained, I can copy and paste if you like?

5 - Sources for 770/760 specs as requested-
BSN - http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GeForce-GTX-700-Kepler,22204.html
Chiphell - http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GTX-770-Photos-Specs-Chiphell-Release-Date,22559.html
3Dcentre - http://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-...d-gtx-780-based-gk110-gk114-power-gtx-760-ti/
ORB - http://videocardz.com/30238/nvidia-geforce-gk-104-specification-leaked

6 - I said at the start that the OP should replace the PSU when I was going on the assumptions about his PSU. Then I read more about his specific PSU and said that the OP would not have a problem running the hardware but a lesser 450 W PSU would.

Do not pretend like you knew the ins-and-outs of his PSU before this debate started. I posted the first link to a review of his PSU pointing out my own error. You were going on the assumption that a standard corsair 450 W unit would be able to handle anything you could throw at it and that is what you are in disagreement with me about.

I clearly stated, as soon as the debate really started, that I was wrong about his PSU, but I wasn't going to back down from the fact that the system could easily exceed 450 W. You are saying that that kind of system would only EVER draw about 300 W of power (leaving 150 W for other hardware) in any situation.

I am not trying to tell the OP to upgrade his PSU . . .

According to reviews, his unit is really a rebranded 500 W unit that is able to still work well at 570 W. http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Corsair-VX450W-Power-Supply-Review/540/10
So it's all moot anyway. 500 W would be enough for anything. Although, I still stand by my opinion that the system could push 450 W.

7 - Yes, you can do more than play flash games. That was clearly an exaggeration.
Show me a (non-bench) system running an overclocked 4770K and GTX 760 during a stability test and I will eat my hat. (OCCT PSU stress would be a good place to start)

- I'm sorry for not quoting each point, but I would have to back quote at least 3 posts to get through the confusion, so, I am just replying to each of your points in turn.
Punisher is right where he says you would make a good lawyer, you are good with the Chewbacca defense.

 

[Dangman]

1- No Seasonic provided the power supply to both Corsiar and Antec to put their own 'badge" on. Semantics of grammar aside, it is a near identical unit to the 500 W Antec PSU.

Yes I am arguing semantics as it's still important to provide accurate information. Not semi-accurate information. Again, not disputing that they are identical. What I am disputing is your choice of words in describing the identical PSUs.

2- No, They said:

"On your average system the card requires you to have a 450 to 500 Watt power supply unit."

They were not talking about their own system, it is quite clear what ön your average system" means.

Fair enough.

3 - I clearly said that it can handle 99% of situations before I realized that his PSU could easily provide 500 W of power 24/7.
Don't misquote me and try to twist my words.

As soon as I realized that fact I admitted I was wrong about his PSU and that it would handle the system.

Twisting your words? You said that a 450W PSU would not handle it. I say you're wrong.

4 - Peak power draw and maximum power draw are 2 quite different things. Are you deliberately misquoting me or do you not understand the difference? I provided a clear source with the difference explained, I can copy and paste if you like?

Please do.

5 - Sources for 770/760 specs as requested-
BSN - http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GeForce-GTX-700-Kepler,22204.html
Chiphell - http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GTX-770-Photos-Specs-Chiphell-Release-Date,22559.html
3Dcentre - http://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-...d-gtx-780-based-gk110-gk114-power-gtx-760-ti/
ORB - http://videocardz.com/30238/nvidia-geforce-gk-104-specification-leaked

FYI, there's good reasons why Tom's is a four letter word in this forum. So next time, just quote straight from the source and not Tom's. If Tom's is the source, don't quote them at all as very few people here on the forums will actually take Tom's seriously. In any case, none of those are actual confirmation by Nvidia of the specifications or any sort of trusted source. The first source, BSN, only said "Visiting Asia has its treats. From a foot massage in Hong Kong to a 55" 4K panel in Shenzhen for $1600, it's easy to find what are you interested in. It is also easy to listen to the beat of the street." In other words, it sounds like what they overheard may have been hearsay and not actualyl straight from the source. The second source is just an image of the GTX 770. It's not an actual confirmation of the specs. In addition, the last two sources did not sound 100% sure of what they were reporting was true. They used words like "Possible specifications of NVIDIA’s GeForce 700" and "ORB-Hardware has posted an alleged specification of new GK-104 Kepler gpu"

Do not pretend like you knew the ins-and-outs of his PSU before this debate started. I posted the first link to a review of his PSU pointing out my own error. You were going on the assumption that a standard corsair 450 W unit would be able to handle anything you could throw at it.

And I still stand by that assumption. Again, despite the HS, I'm going by what Corsair has rated the PSU for: 450W. Corsair knows its shit when it comes to power supplies: If they're conservative about a rating, there's probably good reason for that conservatism.

In addition, yes I did know of the Corsair VX450 well before this debate started as I was recommending that PSU back in 2007:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1031358595&postcount=3

I clearly stated, as soon as the debate really started, that I was wrong about his PSU, but I wasn't going to back down from the fact that the system could easily exceed 450 W.

Show me a system running an overclocked 4770K and GTX 760 during a stability test and I will eat my hat. (OCCT PSU stress would be a good place to start)

We shall have to wait until said release of Haswell to get those numbers. Until then, the numbers you've quoted are inherently wrong.

Punisher is right where he says you would make a good lawyer, you are good with the Chewbacca defense.

Here I thought we were having a civilized debate. If we're going to resort to this kind of slander, I don't see any reason to continue this debate.