Copper Oxidization?

[SiRCYRO]

I've had my WC setup for about 6 months and I've undertaken flushing out the system. I noticed that there seemed to be what looked like algae at first in the system, kind of a greenish blue sediment throughout the tubes and reservoirs. Upon disassembling my water block it was apparent that this was the source of the color in the system.

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0099wg6.jpg

That's the clearest photo I could take.

I am assuming it's not algae because it appears to be a thin layer on the copper and not mossy like in this system. (here) I also always thought that copper oxidization was green, while this was more blue. Now that the water block has dried the blue pretty much comes off in flakes. The only metal in the system is the copper water block and the chrome DD 1/2in barb fittings which I was told would not cause oxidization.

I did have PT Nuke in the fluid before, and just plain distilled water. I do have a bottle of Hydrx which I can try this time. I'm not sure what I should use. More PT Nuke, just Hydrx, both? Is what I have copper oxidization or algae? I wasn't able to find any pictures so I thought I'd ask myself.

Also, there is some residue on the other parts of the water block, so I'm assuming it's all throughout the system, tubing, rad. Is there an easy way to get it all out, will vinegar and distiller water work or should I just replace all the tubing?

 

[BillParrish]

Because of the appearance of the photo and your description I agree with you that it is not biological.

A guick double check confirmed the most common cause of "blue" in copper (information was mainly from the plumbing/copper pipe industry) is copper sulfide. Guess what the primary active ingredient of PT Nuke is ...

Use: Add either 1 drop per liter of coolant (~0.57ppm Copper) or 2 drops per liter of coolant (~1.14ppm Copper)
Active Ingredient: Copper(II) sulfate pentahydrate (CuSO4·5H2O)

I am guessing you just went a little overboard in the amount you used. Most WC systems hold around a liter more or less so a couple of drops would be enough. ( I would use just one unless it was a windowed case in a sunny area. )

There are certainly other things it could be but thats my guess and thats all it is, just a guess.


It is interesting that you can clearly see where the jets are hiting the hardest so its not a lost cause. It seems fairly clear to me that there is a not perfect but pretty plain inner "ring" of mostly clean area but the very center has the blue discoloration implying that for whatever reason flow dead center is not as great as around the "Middle". No clue as to why or how you could change that, just thought I would mention it and it assumes the lack of blue is due to greater flow/pressure/velocity in those jets which might not be true.

I really really doubt the chrome DD barbs are the issue. I have been using a DD maze 3 with chrome bards for 5+ years and no blue (just disassembled due to motherboard failure last week and block is like the day I put it in after I cleaned the nicotine off the plexi (ugh - what my lungs must look like - time to google "grave marker".)

 

[SiRCYRO]

Thank you for your feedback. If I remember I used 2 drops per liter however I premixed a 4 liter jug of distilled water. Perhaps it did not mix very well and I ended up with a stronger concentration in my loop. I will dump that batch and mix only 1 liter at a time this round.

Now to find a method of cleaning all of the film off. Thanks again for your help.

 

[BillParrish]

Ahh well that additional information is interesting, I thought maybe you had used the whole bottle or something. Frankly I am very susprised this came up as the concentration you used is correct per the instructions. Perhaps someone else who uses this can comment.

A good scrub and you should be good to go. As you probably know, white distilled vinegar is usually recommend along with a stiff toothbrush. I can tell you that cleaning with anything containing bleach or ammonia are very very bad ideas.

 

[Arcygenical]

OP: What's your loop? That looks a lot like Copper2 Oxide to me...

 

[SiRCYRO]

My loop is:

Swiftech MCRES-MICRO
Swiftech MCP350
Swiftech MCR220
D-Tek Fuzion v1
->back to Res

Using D-Tek 1/2IN G1/4 High Flow barbs (Chrome plated brass). Not DD ones as I mentioned before.

 

[duniek]

for my guess is precipitate from old fluid
clean up it by some ketchup , like a guy in another thread(which is listed above)

 

[egawrangler]

My two cents -
Bill's got it spot on. Copper Sulfate, when ionized (it already is, but when it picks up another e-) at your waterblock, is supposed to provide a barrier between your copper block and the evil oxygen in the distilled water. However, copper sulfate is really only effective where it can "spread" out. Small, high flow water cooled computers are not exactly ideal for this. The "blueing" effect is from the copper molecules floating away as they are corroded off, and then picking up excess oxygen. They're somewhat statically magnetized so they tend to stay around the larger copper surface. This all happens at the molecular level, so I'm kind of dramatizing it a bit. But overall, your problem is that your need a better corrosion inhibitor along with some type of algaecide.

To clean the block. Ketchup is a GREAT suggestion! So is orange juice! Vinegar works fine. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing chemically wrong with ammonia. BUT, you need to be very careful. Ammonia and bleach can swiftly kill plexi or delrin if not diluted correctly.

-EGA Wrangler
Chemist, Computer Scientist, and Captain of Marines

 

[SiRCYRO]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll add some anti-corrosion additive this time around after I clean everything out.

Is PT Nuke + Primochill Liquid Utopia too much biocide?

 

[mellojoe]

My loop right now is just Distilled Water + PrimoChill Liquid Utopia. However, I'm just a beginner at this, so that that with a grain of salt.

 

[egawrangler]

Primochill Liquid Utopia is a good product. I haven't had the time to stick it in the lab yet, but I have used it before. Overall though, I'd still recommend a commercial grade algaecide. Liquid utopia is a blended product with a corrosion inhibitor as well, that's the main selling point. Sometimes mixing algaecides and gycol's can cause a "soaping" effect. Liquid Utopia aims to eliminate that.
If this is your first WC set up, stick with the Liquid Utopia. Careful with the colored ones though. Most additive colors are food dyes which can spawn algae on porous substances.
Oh, and be careful with the term "biocide". In reality, there are some things we like to live in the cooling loop. Some parasites actually EAT algae! YEAH! Biocides are dangerous substances that kill even the good stuff.
Most newbies will talk all day about which order to put your blocks in, placement of this and that, additives and dyes, and all kinds of numbers that they don't understand. The main point is to explore on your own...read and post your stories, and have fun!

-EGA Wrangler
Chemist, Computer Scientist, and Captain of Marines

 

[SiRCYRO]

Thanks again for the feedback.

This is my first WC setup, and other than the buildup has been working great, it was fun to build for sure. Ketchup and vinegar did a great job at cleaning everything out.

So I'm going to go with the Primochill Liquid Utopia. Would picking up an algaecide from a pool store be suitable commercial grade?

 

[Arcygenical]

h, and be careful with the term "biocide". In reality, there are some things we like to live in the cooling loop. Some parasites actually EAT algae! YEAH! Biocides are dangerous substances that kill even the good stuff.

I want my loop sterile. There's no reason why it shouldn't be...

 

[egawrangler]

I want my loop sterile. There's no reason why it shouldn't be...

Generally, you're absolutely correct. However, if you think you're water cooling loop is "sterile", then I will happily submit your name for consideration in the next Darwin awards competition.

Basic fact time - the only way to guarantee sterility in a water cooling loop is to heat the water to above 135 whilst inside the loop, OR to again heat it up separately but guarantee that air (that's AIR, not oxygen) does not come into contact with the water. Both are an incredible pain in the butt, and really more work than necessary.

SiRCYRO - I'd recommend the tetra algaecides. Cheap and effective, one bottle will probably last you twenty years.
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754894

-EGA Wrangler
Chemist, Computer Scientist, and Captain of Marines

 

[Arcygenical]

then I will happily submit your name for consideration in the next Darwin awards competition.

Yes, because every unsterile watercooling loop removes my ability to procreate

I'm not so sure where you come off, bringing condescending phrases like, "basic fact time" into this discussion... Having worked in a BS Class 3 clean room for the better part of 5 months, I know what it takes to be completely sterile. Considering my favorite non-tech related hobby is mycology, I *have* to be sterile.

However, using a potent biocide such as Copper Sulfate will remove *all* organisms from the loop. Good ones, "that eat algae" and bad ones... Algae. If you kill everything in a closed system, it's effectively sterile... I much prefer iodine to Copper2Sulfate however...

And I'd refrain from signing your posts with a signature, it's (for whatever reason) against the rules here...

 

[egawrangler]

Yes, because every unsterile watercooling loop removes my ability to procreate

HA! Come on now man! The Darwin Awards are awarded solely for abject stupidity! Streamlining the gene pool is just a positive side effect!

I'm not so sure where you come off, bringing condescending phrases like, "basic fact time" into this discussion... Having worked in a BS Class 3 clean room for the better part of 5 months, I know what it takes to be completely sterile. Considering my favorite non-tech related hobby is mycology, I *have* to be sterile.

"basic fact time" was never meant to impune your intelligence. Stop being so touchy!

Alas, somehow I knew this thread would degenerate (as most do) into childlike finger pointing. It is always quite difficult to express in type-written form the, most expressive, English language. Please don't get your feathers ruffled. Like most, you supplant your defensive posture with a volume of credentials that can neither be proven or disproven. Bravo! I'm sure you're chemical whiz kid....but then again....so are Dr.'s Google and Wikipedia.

However, using a potent biocide such as Copper Sulfate will remove *all* organisms from the loop.

I really don't want to get into a discussion like this on something as trivial as water cooling a computer so please PM me if you want to. The short response is....not true.

Good ones, "that eat algae" and bad ones... Algae. If you kill everything in a closed system, it's effectively sterile... I much prefer iodine to Copper2Sulfate however...

Yes, very true, and a good point. Iodine just has more of a stigma on it right now from the medical community.

And I'd refrain from signing your posts with a signature, it's (for whatever reason) against the rules here...

I appreciate the advice, however, I still wear a uniform and I'm still damn proud of it. If the [H] Gods deem fit to ban me because of that, then I'll come tell you I should have listened better.

-EGA Wrangler
Chemist, Computer Scientist, and Captain of Marines