Constellation Tracking Could Be a Long-Term Mistake for Oculus

cageymaru

cageymaru

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The Oculus method of tracking it's headset and controllers through a room is called Constellation as it is a series of markers placed on the devices to mimic a constellation. Constellation is having a really hard time tracking the HMD and controller devices within the 3D space they occupy in a room, as it is inevitable that obstructions such as a desk will block the markers. These obstructions occlude the tracking sensors from seeing the markers on the device it is tracking.

If enough markers are blocked, then the sensor no longer has the ability to track the device. The Constellation system is dependent on the tracking sensors seeing these markers frame by frame to create the VR experience. Adding a third sensor didn't help as sometimes the view of the sensor is still obstructed from the markers on the devices. Without proper tracking, the VR experience is ruined, and users have been complaining of this for quite awhile even after recent patches to remedy the situation. The addition of room scale via a software patch made the situation significantly worse as the sensors are now stretched out across the room.

This calls into question the long term feasibility of the Constellation system. Will this issue plague the system for the entirety of its life cycle? Did Oculus choose the right 3D space tracking system for their product? Should they have gone with a system like the HTC Vive?

Ever since Oculus released Touch it has allowed its users to create an experimental “room-scale” setup with three total Sensors placed strategically around the play space. What this should do is make it so no matter where you’re facing, at least one of the Sensors is able to see enough of the infrared markers on your headset and both Touch controllers. Instead, these larger Sensor formations have led to reports of tracking issues.

This issue seems to be centered on the software powering Constellation itself. In an effort to help with these issues, Oculus released a patch (1.11) but that patch has yet to fully alleviate all of the tracking problems. In fact, for some people it seems to have created new issues. With major content launches inching ever closer, the clock is ticking to restore the Rift’s tracking viability.
 
or short term boom as they come out with the version 2 Oculus. That's of course if their engineers can stay away from soliciting sex from minors to be able to fix the problem.
 
If you are a room space VR with occluded vision wtf would you have a desk in the middle of no where you could stumble over it?
 
DigitalGriffin said:
If you are a room space VR with occluded vision wtf would you have a desk in the middle of no where you could stumble over it?
Click to expand...

I don't own a VR set, but I was thinking of this myself. Say you turn your waist too far to the side to swing a VR bat? Your body would be in the way of the sensor. Could be loose clothing that falls over your sensors. Maybe you decide to duck and spin away from a creature in Resident Evil? Cowering with your hands over your face might block it.

Nothing more exciting that getting a reconnect prompt in the middle of a scare scene? Like I said I don't own one, so just envisioning what could possibly go wrong.
 
This is more of an AR problem which Hololens solves by putting a Kinect on your head and using those obstructions as the tracking points. VR, you probably don't want to be doing that next to a floor lamp.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
If you are a room space VR with occluded vision wtf would you have a desk in the middle of no where you could stumble over it?
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"Do not try and go around the desk, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there is no desk. Then you will see it is not the desk that stumbles, it is only yourself."
 
Reminder: Facebook has Hundreds of Billions of Dollars. i would't bet against them.....
 
Rift was designed like cinema tracking has been done before in cinema, subject emits light camera picks it up.
Vive was designed like a wii mote, IR emitters send out a grid and the vive does all the calculations.

What advantages of each system has? Well dumb ir emitters are cheap and don't require anything but power so set up can be easier as long cabling isn't needed outside to the headset, although vive doesn't make it easier because of that pre box to the computer. That being said it means more hardware needs to be in the headset and the cost of the headset is much higher. This passive method is alot more suited for multiple subjects, not multiple people but things like peripherals can be simplified in terms of tracking although again cost increases due to everything needing to be smart.

Rift has the advantage of hardware updates. You don't need to buy a whole need headset to improve tracking you can just improve the cameras, pretty much how they handeled 360 tracking just add another camera. Plus less stuff in headset means it can be lighter etc.

With that Vive seems to be designed with whole room experiences in mind while Rift was designed to be more of a mid point in order to get more users interested.

To me it seems like oculus has a longer term advantage it has more flexibility in designing each individual piece in the end.

At least that's how i understand it, I don't do VR
 
Oscar Meyer said:
Reminder: Facebook has Hundreds of Billions of Dollars. i would't bet against them.....
Click to expand...

Cash on hand as of December 31st, 2016 = $8,903,000

You are over $91 Billion away from FB having "hundreds of billions". Maybe you are thinking of another company? And yes, I WOULD bet against Facebook and Oculus. It's crap technology, stolen from others, and promoted by SLEEZE!
 
Semantics said:
Rift was designed like cinema tracking has been done before in cinema, subject emits light camera picks it up.
Vive was designed like a wii mote, IR emitters send out a grid and the vive does all the calculations.

What advantages of each system has? Well dumb ir emitters are cheap and don't require anything but power so set up can be easier as long cabling isn't needed outside to the headset, although vive doesn't make it easier because of that pre box to the computer. That being said it means more hardware needs to be in the headset and the cost of the headset is much higher. This passive method is alot more suited for multiple subjects, not multiple people but things like peripherals can be simplified in terms of tracking although again cost increases due to everything needing to be smart.

Rift has the advantage of hardware updates. You don't need to buy a whole need headset to improve tracking you can just improve the cameras, pretty much how they handeled 360 tracking just add another camera. Plus less stuff in headset means it can be lighter etc.

With that Vive seems to be designed with whole room experiences in mind while Rift was designed to be more of a mid point in order to get more users interested.

To me it seems like oculus has a longer term advantage it has more flexibility in designing each individual piece in the end.

At least that's how i understand it, I don't do VR
Click to expand...

No, that's not correct in the slightest. The Vive's "Lighthouses" are more than simple IR emitters. They are motorized and blanket the coverage area with IR. The communicate with the PC via bluetooth. No need to wire the Lighthouses to the PC, although they do require power. Tracking is accomplished by the HEADSET (and controllers or other accessories) tracking the output from the Lighthouses. Oculus, in comparison, has the SENSORS placed in the room. These sensors have to be HARDWIRED to the PC via USB to operate. This means that you have far less flexibility in placing them. Note that for "roomscale" VR on the Oculus Rift, it requires THREE sensors, making the total cost of the system over $880 with 3 cameras and two "Touch" Controllers. This is compared to the Vive at $800 for the same setup. Also note that the maximum area you can use with Oculus, even WITH 3 cameras is an 8'x8' area, compared to the Vive at 16'x16' max! That's FOUR TIMES the area!

There is not an "advantage" to the Rift with hardware updates, either. You can update all you want, and the final solution will be less capable than the Vive out of the box! There have been NO announced "hardware upgrades" either. So don't bet on something that hasn't been announced or even speculated on!

There is also nothing limiting about the breakout box that Vive uses. It's just a passthrough designed to simplify wiring and make sure that if you trip over the cable, you don't damage your PC or video card! Note also that in the very near future, the Vive will have a completely WIRELESS solution available for it...already available in China, expect it to cost betweeen $250 and $300 when it launches in the US. No wireless solution has been announced for the Rift.

In short, technology always has winners and losers...and it sounds like you are betting in the wrong horse this time.
 
Well, the PSVR use somewhat similar method you know... They track the Headset / PS4 Controllers / Joy controller (name?) with the light they emits thru the PS Camera.
It works great, but yes if you have something between that blocks the light.. won't work. But as many stated, when you play VR, normally you make sure there's no table in front of you ;) (My friend learned the hard way trying the PSVR lol)

Also, PSVR have lights on the back of the head too, I would hope Oculus did the same ? This way when you look backward, it sees the back light and it still works... We can do a 360 rotation no problem (Will pose problem for Controllers if you stand between the camera and those).

Cheers,
 
jnemesh said:
Cash on hand as of December 31st, 2016 = $8,903,000

You are over $91 Billion away from FB having "hundreds of billions". Maybe you are thinking of another company? And yes, I WOULD bet against Facebook and Oculus. It's crap technology, stolen from others, and promoted by SLEEZE!
Click to expand...

Go and short their stock.....many have tried......and have gone out of business
 
I own Rift, with 3 sensor setup. Up until the last update, my tracking was fine using just the USB ports on my aging mobo. Now with this latest update, I've got the floor height issue - whereas I'm suddenly about 7FT tall in VR instead of 5'10".

Oculus needs to get their shit together with this update, that is all. Steam isn't exactly flawless either.

Long term, I see no issue with constellation tracking. The tech will continue to improve. Lighthouse works fine as well.

Jnemesh, you are incorrect - the very same wireless Tech will be available for Rift as well (https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/15/rivvr-brings-wireless-vr-to-the-oculus-rift-and-htc-vive/). Stop spreading misinformation.

People really need to stop this BS bashing between Vive and Rift, it's not good for VR. Both are excellent setups.

You don't like Oculus / Facebook? Fine. Buy a Vive and shut up about it. For me personally, Facebook / Oculus / Steam / HTC - I don't care, whoever makes the better setup gets my money. For 1st Gen, I felt Oculus was better and I still do. For 2nd Gen when it arrives, I will re-evaluate.
 
sboucher said:
I own Rift, with 3 sensor setup. Up until the last update, my tracking was fine using just the USB ports on my aging mobo. Now with this latest update, I've got the floor height issue - whereas I'm suddenly about 7FT tall in VR instead of 5'10".

Oculus needs to get their shit together with this update, that is all. Steam isn't exactly flawless either.

Long term, I see no issue with constellation tracking. The tech will continue to improve. Lighthouse works fine as well.

Jnemesh, you are incorrect - the very same wireless Tech will be available for Rift as well (https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/15/rivvr-brings-wireless-vr-to-the-oculus-rift-and-htc-vive/). Stop spreading misinformation.

People really need to stop this BS bashing between Vive and Rift, it's not good for VR. Both are excellent setups.

You don't like Oculus / Facebook? Fine. Buy a Vive and shut up about it. For me personally, Facebook / Oculus / Steam / HTC - I don't care, whoever makes the better setup gets my money. For 1st Gen, I felt Oculus was better and I still do. For 2nd Gen when it arrives, I will re-evaluate.
Click to expand...

Some peeps are just way too serious...waiting for my 3rd sensor to get here. Still having a blast with 2 sensors at the moment. As for long term, Facebook will win in the end. They always do...
 
Still waiting for 2nd gen hardware before I even consider this stuff.....
 
Oscar Meyer said:
You are missing out on the most fun ever!!!
Click to expand...

So true, but I respect his sentiment - for a younger generation.

I figure, I'm getting older and not as poor as I was when I was younger, and been waiting for this kind of tech to come for a very long time now. So fuck it, I'm all in now.

Younger people, without so much money to burn - waiting for Gen 2 isn't a bad idea.
 
jnemesh said:
No, that's not correct in the slightest. The Vive's "Lighthouses" are more than simple IR emitters. They are motorized and blanket the coverage area with IR. The communicate with the PC via bluetooth. No need to wire the Lighthouses to the PC, although they do require power. Tracking is accomplished by the HEADSET (and controllers or other accessories) tracking the output from the Lighthouses. Oculus, in comparison, has the SENSORS placed in the room. These sensors have to be HARDWIRED to the PC via USB to operate. This means that you have far less flexibility in placing them. Note that for "roomscale" VR on the Oculus Rift, it requires THREE sensors, making the total cost of the system over $880 with 3 cameras and two "Touch" Controllers. This is compared to the Vive at $800 for the same setup. Also note that the maximum area you can use with Oculus, even WITH 3 cameras is an 8'x8' area, compared to the Vive at 16'x16' max! That's FOUR TIMES the area!

There is not an "advantage" to the Rift with hardware updates, either. You can update all you want, and the final solution will be less capable than the Vive out of the box! There have been NO announced "hardware upgrades" either. So don't bet on something that hasn't been announced or even speculated on!

There is also nothing limiting about the breakout box that Vive uses. It's just a passthrough designed to simplify wiring and make sure that if you trip over the cable, you don't damage your PC or video card! Note also that in the very near future, the Vive will have a completely WIRELESS solution available for it...already available in China, expect it to cost betweeen $250 and $300 when it launches in the US. No wireless solution has been announced for the Rift.

In short, technology always has winners and losers...and it sounds like you are betting in the wrong horse this time.
Click to expand...
The lighthouses don't use bluetooth they have wireless communication but with each other using light not with the pc, like i said they are pretty simple in terms of equipment. It's like a wii mote ir emitters with sensors on the thing you hold that do all the work. You seemed to take offense by that there is nothing deeply wrong with that set up, maybe you just hated the comparison to the wii.

Also both VR sets have wireless solutions in the work. It's not hard to to find out just type in "oculus wireless" in a search engine.

I'm not betting on any horse, i'm not buying VR anytime soon.

I understand it as a pure enthusiast product not something that will interest me because the scope and availability is too small. Whole room experiences is obviously where they want to go but that automatically kills most of the potential user base.

Game industry is all about user base, users bring in money and profitability. Neither of these devices are long term VR solutions, iterations will be present in the follow years. Oculus seems to be set up to mitigate that cost to the user base over time and they also have a lower threshold in terms of set up requirements and cost, again flexibility equating to wider user base.

Not everyone wanting VR experiences can afford the floor space for 360 VR, infact i would suggest that most people interested in VR could not afford that floor space. I arrive at this conclusion based on failure points of the wii and kinect, floor space is a premium in ways money is not. Mainly because this is also floor space that shares space with the TV/computer/w.e entertainment set up you have.
 
I don't think it is a mistake. Oculus creating a closed system in an emerging segment is a mistake, but it is often a long term one.
 
Going to keep it simple. 3rd sensor fixed pretty much all my tracking issues, which only happened when I was facing backwards(resulting in screen greying out). I don't know what they are going on about saying it's ineffective. And yes, of course, don't put solid objects between sensors and play space. Not only will the sensors struggle, you'll injure yourself.

Was this thing a paid hit piece?
 
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Yeah, I don't think they were really focused as much on room space as HTC was when developing this thing.
 
Aireoth said:
I don't think it is a mistake. Oculus creating a closed system in an emerging segment is a mistake, but it is often a long term one.
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Long term may hurt the Oculus store, maybe. But I don't see it hurting the device, I use mine exclusivley with Steam while avoid the Oculus store as much as possible. No problems.
 
Aireoth said:
I don't think it is a mistake. Oculus creating a closed system in an emerging segment is a mistake, but it is often a long term one.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say it a closed system. Nothing stopping me from buying my titles off Steam.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Yeah, I don't think they were really focused as much on room space as HTC was when developing this thing.
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Massive play spaces are over-rated. With locomotion solutions like Onward, you don't need to physically move around so much. I'd say 360 is essential, with enough room to wave your arms around.

I have no issues kicking ass in Onward.
 
sboucher said:
So true, but I respect his sentiment - for a younger generation.

I figure, I'm getting older and not as poor as I was when I was younger, and been waiting for this kind of tech to come for a very long time now. So fuck it, I'm all in now.

Younger people, without so much money to burn - waiting for Gen 2 isn't a bad idea.
Click to expand...

Same here. I stopped gaming for 10 years, despite upgrading to the newest vid cards every 3 years just to run a tech demo here and there. Now I can't put this VR stuff down. There is something quite therapeutic in emptying clips of bullets into hordes of monsters after a long day at work and kids. In regards to Onward, never had so much fun just physically lying belly down on the floor waiting for a sniper victim to roll on by...
 
I've had no tracking issues at all with my 3 sensor Rift setup. It can also be larger than 8'x8'. Right now in my space I'm running it at about 8'x10'. My biggest issue has been getting my kids to pay attention to the grid lines when they're near the walls so they stop punching the damn bookshelf.
 
The issue of occlusion is not unique to Oculus. The Vive suffers the same problems of the stations arent placed properly. I think the only disadvantage Oculus has is that they encourage poor sensor placement, such as just putting it on your desk next to your monitor. This was because they did not envision roomscale catching on and that most people would be playing at their desk sitting in a chair up close to the sensor anyway. Occlusion would never be an issue in this circumstance. Since they decided to add roomscale to compete better with Vive I'm thinking people are still leaving their sensors on their desk and just placing one random one somewhere in the back. Right out the box Vive says you should mount theirs to the ceiling so most people already did this and will probably never suffer any occlusion issues.
 
nysmo said:
The issue of occlusion is not unique to Oculus. The Vive suffers the same problems of the stations arent placed properly. I think the only disadvantage Oculus has is that they encourage poor sensor placement, such as just putting it on your desk next to your monitor. This was because they did not envision roomscale catching on and that most people would be playing at their desk sitting in a chair up close to the sensor anyway. Occlusion would never be an issue in this circumstance. Since they decided to add roomscale to compete better with Vive I'm thinking people are still leaving their sensors on their desk and just placing one random one somewhere in the back. Right out the box Vive says you should mount theirs to the ceiling so most people already did this and will probably never suffer any occlusion issues.
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....higher is better...
 
Vive rocks, and I own it. No way a camera can even come close to competing with Vive tracking. It may work, but no way it is at the same level.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
If you are a room space VR with occluded vision wtf would you have a desk in the middle of no where you could stumble over it?
Click to expand...

if you are able to clear out an entire room or add on to your house to have a VR only area that is great. Most people have to make due with using a room that they already have in their house and is already being used for other stuff which means having a computer desk and other furniture in the room and just know what their range of movement is. Which means if the camera is sitting on a desk above the PC, you could turn and duck in a way that part of you is blocked by the desk that the sensor is sitting on.
 
ol1bit said:
Vive rocks, and I own it. No way a camera can even come close to competing with Vive tracking. It may work, but no way it is at the same level.
Click to expand...
The Vive suffers from the same problem if the headset can't see either of the lighthouses (happens to me somtimes in fantastic contraptions, if I bend over too far). The advantage the Vive has is that only a few of the sensors need to see the lighthouse to maintain tracking (so only part of the headset needs to be in view), while the Rift cameras need to see the entire Rift headset (just part of the headset isn't enough).

The biggest problem with the Rift is that their system was designed with seated-play in mind (like the DK1 and DK2), and now that the Vive is eating their lunch, they have been trying to compete by shoehorning new features like room-scale-play and touch controllers into a tracking system that just wasn't designed for it.
 
ol1bit said:
Vive rocks, and I own it. No way a camera can even come close to competing with Vive tracking. It may work, but no way it is at the same level.
Click to expand...
I've played both extensively, the Rift tracking is just as fast as Vive, one is just designed from the ground up to be a seated experience and now they are paying the price when people try to adopt it for other experiences.
 
nysmo said:
I've played both extensively, the Rift tracking is just as fast as Vive, one is just designed from the ground up to be a seated experience and now they are paying the price when people try to adopt it for other experiences.
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The Rift is death by a thousand cuts. Snaking USB everywhere is a huge pain, as is figuring out what USB cords and hubs and ports you can use. They didnt include or plan for any way to mount the sensors out-of-the-box. (but hey i got a Rock Band accessory in Touch.....)

Then there is the whole thing where every time i want to use it on my secondary machine, it reminds me that my CPU is less than what they recommend in the desktop and in the headset (2500k/980ti, its fine my main rig is a 6700k/1080 Hybrid) .

The stupid Health and Safety acknowledgement every time. Forced updates with no rollbacks. No refunds in the store. No out-of-warranty repairs. No way to share User-generated content (i.e. workshop) NO way to replace a non-warranty covered cord or pretty much any part. Thye announced they are going to start including patch notes, without ever once admitting how stupid it was to not include them.

All of that above doesnt even get into the blasphemy that is 'Unknown Sources' on PC or the persistent tracking issues.
 
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Spire3660 said:
They didnt include or plan for any way to mount the sensors out-of-the-box.
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What do you mean? The sensors come affixed to elegant stands meant for placement on your desk. They actually look much nicer than Vive stations and are much easier to setup. They just dont work well for roomscale which has still yet to be proven more than a gimmick.
 
Spire3660 said:
The Rift is death by a thousand cuts. Snaking USB everywhere is a huge pain, as is figuring out what USB cords and hubs and ports you can use. They didnt include or plan for any way to mount the sensors out-of-the-box. (but hey i got a Rock Band accessory in Touch.....)

Then there is the whole thing where every time i want to use it on my secondary machine, it reminds me that my CPU is less than what they recommend in the desktop and in the headset (2500k/980ti, its fine my main rig is a 6700k/1080 Hybrid) .

The stupid Health and Safety acknowledgement every time. Forced updates with no rollbacks. No refunds in the store. No out-of-warranty repairs. No way to share User-generated content (i.e. workshop) NO way to replace a non-warranty covered cord or pretty much any part. Thye announced they are going to start including patch notes, without ever once admitting how stupid it was to not include them.

All of that above doesnt even get into the blasphemy that is 'Unknown Sources' on PC or the persistent tracking issues.
Click to expand...

Must admit, I can't really argue any of this. It's unfortunate, because there are a lot of positive things about the Rift and what they have accomplished. But in some areas, like these, they really need to get their shit together.
 
nysmo said:
What do you mean? The sensors come affixed to elegant stands meant for placement on your desk. They actually look much nicer than Vive stations and are much easier to setup. They just dont work well for roomscale which has still yet to be proven more than a gimmick.
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How is room-scale a gimmick?

Most VR titles on steam are room-scale, and the few that aren't room-scale are games where you would normally be sitting anyway (racing, flying, etc.)

Even if you are sitting, you would still want to back away from the computer and face the other way, to avoid putting a controller through your monitor.
 
sir-gold said:
How is room-scale a gimmick?
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That doesn't make much sense. Room scale simply means that the controllers and HMD are tracked three dimensionally over an area the size of larger room for the average person. The Vive does that pretty much perfectly.
 
sir-gold said:
How is room-scale a gimmick?

Most VR titles on steam are room-scale, and the few that aren't room-scale are games where you would normally be sitting anyway (racing, flying, etc.)

Even if you are sitting, you would still want to back away from the computer and face the other way, to avoid putting a controller through your monitor.
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Most VR titles on steam are shovelware demos. The highest production value roomscale game they have, Call of the Starseed, lasts about TWO HOURS. You could accidentally beat it in 1 hour if you didnt take your time exploring everything enjoying the scenery. Any game that risks you punching the monitor the Rift is already well suited for as you merely stand a few feet back from your desk.
 
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