Console Games Taking Over PC Games

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you can play Gothic in First person. If you want some old school first person action Play Morrowind or a game on the Playstation one called Kingsfield.
 
JaPe said:
Since consoles are the way to go I need some help. Which is better, Xbox 360 or PS3? Plus I need links to some good couches.
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Enjoy aiming with those thumbsticks. I know I certainly do... at least from the perspective that I enjoy complaining about it when I'm with a console gaming fanatic and putting them down for their inferior taste in gaming platform.
 
Eventually all the console people will be playing PCs because thats what consoles are starting to become. It will always be a closed platform though which sucks. No user generated content. PC will always be superior. You could do a lot more to the games than on a console. Your library of games never gets old since new content is always made for it. Consoles may have all the exclusives right now but i know for sure it isn't better. The controls suck for fps compared to the pc. Theres a ton of games where a mouse and keyboard is required practically like strategies and mmo games. Versatility of a mouse and key board is way beyond a controller. The only console i own is a wii but thats because its not trying to act like a pc and its different. PC hardware doesn't cost as much as before. Lower end hardware is now capable of playing all of the latest games. 1950pro i got a few years ago is running in a older socket 939 x2 system and it still runs everything great. For the amount you pay for a console you could get a even better pc right now. One of my friends built a 250 dollar gaming system recently. Theres certain games that are better on the consoles but not for graphics but for comfort like some racing games for parties and stuff but most of the stuff on consoles is good on the pc also. If it wasn't for pc gamers console gamers would suffer as pc gamers drive hardware.
 
i think it comes down to one simple fact, game dev's are in the business to make money by making games, and they can no longer keep a tunnel vision point of view to one segment of the game market. ie. pc games. when they see the numbers for the consoles they see opportunity to make money and expand their business.

now i don't think pc gaming is dead or dying i just think its evolving like console gaming. and the point of pc games feeling like they should be played with a game pad, i think it comes from that when the develop a game it starts with the console control scheme because i think its easier for them to go from game pad to kb/m then going from kb/m to game pad, but i may be completely wrong on that.

games are just that games, and you should be able to enjoy them on whatever platform you want, but it is up to the dev's to make them great across all the platforms they are releasing it for. because everyone who buys their game should get the same experience out of the game no matter what the play it on.
 
PaleRider101 said:
I've been an avid PC gamer since 1994, I'm 34 years old, the industry is at a cross roads. I for one don't want to see companies programming a game for PC technology with console controls. Its not a matter of "Adapt or learn to program"... I have been supporting the industry for years..... its a matter of getting back to our roots... not trying to conform to what's popular right now!
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I have to agree here, and expand a bit...

I'm also 34 years old, married and my wife is a gamer as well. I've been primarily a hardcore PC gamer for the last decade, and while I grew up in arcades and on consoles, it does bother me when the controls for a game seem to suffer from "console-itis".

It's almost as if they're trying to "force" people over to consoles, as I currently cant count the number of people who've bought a game they've liked, but it played horribly on PC, so they turned around and bought it for console, on which it ended up being a better playing experience. This goes primarily for third-person/over-the-shoulder action titles, especially ones in which there are different combo moves etc., which seemed to be pulled-off easier with controllers and their buttons, than on kb/m.

I've recently been thinking directly about a couple of games I'm specifically interested in, and considering this very thing: how well will the controls transfer to/be developed for PC? Specifically regarding Prototype and Red Faction: Guerrilla.

I'd rather have both on PC, due to the hardware I'm running and being a hardcore PC gamer, but it seems that, as mentioned, third-person/over-the-shoulder action titles do not seem to translate well in terms of controls on PC. I believe they could, should the devs make it so, and I see no reason for them not putting the effort into doing so, though with something such as Prototype where there are many fast-changing combo moves, I'm not sure how well that will translate with kb/m control.

I never cared, at any age, about the whole "console vs PC" issue, as I just don't have that mentality. It's really a ridiculous and immature argument for those with too much time on their hands. I say, enjoy anything and everything, no matter it's format.

However, the control issue is extremely bothersome when you want to play a title on PC that's been released for all platforms, and the controls end up being horrible and obviously geared more towards console. That's when it becomes a frustrating issue.

Since consoles are becoming more and more the focus of devs, when they do released a PC version of a game, the controls (sometimes among other things) tend to end up being bad and difficult.

So, they need to either:

1) stop slopping controls from console to PC, wasting the PC gamer's time and money
2) stop making games for all platforms, and just stick with pushing people more towards consoles
or...
3) preferably, put more effort into making sure that the controls for the PC version of the game are tight and work well.
 
v0rtic3s-x said:
especially ones in which there are different combo moves etc., which seemed to be pulled-off easier with controllers and their buttons, than on kb/m.
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Dice pulled it off perfectly with Mirror's Edge... It's a totally combo driven FPS game and works great. I rank it up there as one of the great ground breaking games (along with Portal)
 
I enjoy both consoles and PCs. Both have their respective places in the gaming world. What kills me is that I believe there to be an influx of kiddies to the "next gen" consoles like we have never seen before. I see a bunch of them saying that they don't want another console until at least 2013, and any eariler than that would be unacceptable.

I think the newcomers don't or can't remember that the xbox's lifespan was 4 years and that of the ps2 was only 6. Typical console lifespans have historically been between 5 and 6 years, not 8. This attitude will severely impact the development of PC games.

I even see some of the little nitwits saying that they don't want graphics to get any better and that it's good where it is right now. Nothing pisses me off more than that.
 
You can see it in the attitudes of the top industry people. They aren't gamers doing it for love of it all like they used to be. Now it's all chasing down the maximum dollar. You can see it in the way they spit out sequels (Activision) and ruin franchises to make a quick buck on an established IP (EA, though they seem to be correcting this). Don't even get me started on DLC. I foresee nothing but nickel-and-diming and incomplete games where you pay extra for the full experience.

There are still great games coming out for the PC. We still have the best online potential...look at console gamers just now seeing servers with more than 16 people. Not to mention RTS and MMO games are still big categories that just can't be done with the same depth and intuitiveness with joysticks.

The PC isn't dying, it is just becoming less distinguishable from consoles in some important ways. I'm fine with console technology catching up as long as the PC games don't need to suffer to make it happen. Some crossover games play just as well on the PC as the console...others seem to miss the mark or leave out features.

I'm going to keep enjoying my PC and just see what happens.
 
With each new generation, consoles become more like PC's.

Hard drives
DLC/Patches
Plug into computer monitors
Upgradeable Hard drives

Console gamers argue that it's cheaper to be a console gamer than a PC gamer because you don't have to upgrade your system every 3 months. (Unless your a junkie, who upgrades their PC every 3 months?)

Is it so hard to believe that in the next gen of consoles we may see upgradeable parts? Especially if kids want to play the latest and most popular titles.

N64 expansion pack was required to play Perfect dark and Donkey Kong 64.

Oh and FPS is still king on PC's. I just played KZ2 on the PS3 at my brothers house. The controls are so stupid for that game. In fact I've never even liked Play station controllers to begin with.
 
heatlesssun said:
As much as people have predicted the end of PC gaming, doesn't it still make about $1 billion a year? And what about the money generated from PC gaming on the hardware end? And what about the fact the hardware in consoles comes from PC's? And what about the Xbox which is a PC?

It just doesn't make sense that PC gaming is going away anytime soon. I make the point over and over and over. As long as console hardware COMES from PC's, there will be games on the PC. Plain and simple.
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This is dumb. Do you really think the hardware makers out there would just stop making hardware if PC gaming died? They'd just start making the hardware for consoles (along with the majority of PCs out there, you know like in 90% of the homes that don't game on their PC?).. just like they do now. Consoles are fun. Are PC's technically better? Sure they are, but consoles are not gonna go away. Why spend $1,500 on a gaming rig when there might only be 3 games a year worth playing on the PC. Whereas there's easily 10 to 20 games a year that are enjoyable on the 360. (Some may like more/less than that number, but those are accurate in my experience)

Also, elitist PC gamers always forget that most PCs out there are made for reasons other than gaming. If PC gaming died most PC owners would never notice.
 
Focker said:
This is dumb. Do you really think the hardware makers out there would just stop making hardware if PC gaming died? They'd just start making the hardware for consoles (along with the majority of PCs out there, you know like in 90% of the homes that don't game on their PC?).. just like they do now. Consoles are fun. Are PC's technically better? Sure they are, but consoles are not gonna go away. Why spend $1,500 on a gaming rig when there might only be 3 games a year worth playing on the PC. Whereas there's easily 10 to 20 games a year that are enjoyable on the 360. (Some may like more/less than that number, but those are accurate in my experience)

Also, elitist PC gamers always forget that most PCs out there are made for reasons other than gaming. If PC gaming died most PC owners would never notice.
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You don't that kind of money to build a gaming pc though now in days. Almost any dual core would do with a decent video card. Everything is a lot cheaper now in days. You could build a gaming pc thats cheaper than a console. Consoles don't even include all the extra controllers and excessories either. Thats over 450-500+ not including games. PC has some good games that are free. PC games are ever lasting also while console games die off a lot quicker. The replay value of pc games is through the roof. Games from before 2000 are still being played. You could always crank up the anti aliasing and aniso also in older games to give them the extra boost in graphics. Once your current console goes obsolete all those games are worth nothing. Consoles are fun in some types of games but most of all the best games out are the best on the pc. You can't argue with user generated content and the community on the pc. Its just so much more free and open than a console which is closed up to any type of user generated content. It all depends on the game also and what crowd you are appeasing also. If its a group of friends then maybe a console version would be better in 4 player splitscreen.
 
Focker said:
This is dumb. Do you really think the hardware makers out there would just stop making hardware if PC gaming died? They'd just start making the hardware for consoles (along with the majority of PCs out there, you know like in 90% of the homes that don't game on their PC?).. just like they do now. Consoles are fun. Are PC's technically better? Sure they are, but consoles are not gonna go away. Why spend $1,500 on a gaming rig when there might only be 3 games a year worth playing on the PC. Whereas there's easily 10 to 20 games a year that are enjoyable on the 360. (Some may like more/less than that number, but those are accurate in my experience)

Also, elitist PC gamers always forget that most PCs out there are made for reasons other than gaming. If PC gaming died most PC owners would never notice.
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You missed my point. Console hardware comes from the PC market. Are you saying that console hardware isn't subsidized? Clearly it is. Hardware manufacturers need the PC market to make money on their hardware. ATI and nVidia make a lot more profit on PC hardware than they do on console hardware and games on the PC help to drive these hardware sales.

PC's are used many tasks thus their beauty. But gaming is an important one and there are some people like myself that out spend consolers or the hardware and software side by a good bit. For some of us $1500 is just a fraction of what or rigs cost. We just like to do it. We like gaming on the PC and are willing to spend the money to do it.
 
Don't worry about it. PC gaming is not a single entity that lives or dies. For Blizzard and Valve the PC business has never been better. Others are struggling. Not every year is a great year for gaming from an enthusiast point of view. 2008 was exceptionally bad in my opinion. 2009 looks sort of slow too.

PC gaming is probably set for a major resurgence. Valve has singlehandedly reaffirmed the PC's viability as a platform with its Steam service. Developers are starting to take notice of Valve's business model, which includes continuous content updates and support, aggressive pricing, reasonable system requirements, fully featured, tight control ect. It is a good model for gamers because the games are supported. PC hardware is fully utilized but not necessarily exceeded. It has never been easier to buy games (Steam). I'd say things are good. Starcraft and Diablo are on the way. Half-Life Episode 3 will probably be spiffied up a bit for the PC. We aren't really lacking in anything. There never were THAT many good shooters, even back in the day the good ones were pretty rare. Even DICE has claimed it has really big plans for Battlefield fans (addressing the issue of number of players in BF:1943). Things have not changed that much, but some of us PC gamers are getting long in tooth and bring adult expectations and adult budgets to a hobby that, lets face it, must cater to a younger demographic.

Also, the uber system requirements PC shooter is a niche that at least one developer will always be exploring.
 
for mass effect you can adjust the fov to your liking

it kind of screws up some dialog scenes though
 
It's simple really, the console market is bigger, there is more money to be made.

The PC platform as a gaming platform is still growing, we still have some decent PC games being made primarily for our platform, it's just not going to be on the same scale as the consoles.

The general public want something they can plug in with 1 cable and press a single button to make it work and be able to spill current juice all over the controller and still have it all work, they want bright colours and simple easy to grasp gameplay which can be picked up in 5 minutes and put down just as quickly...

PC gamers tend to want more depth, more complexity with the game mechanics, we want large story arcs with proper character development, we expect our graphics to be scaleable so we can plug in our new video card and experience the game with the best human inginuity has to offer. Our shooters are faster more intense and require more skill, it's a competative platform which supports highly competative play which fosters great communities online.

Unfortunately it's much cheaper to make a game where you just mash the A/B button until your thumbs are sore, with medicore graphics which never change, and a community 90% made up of kids/teenagers who have an average attention span of about 15 minutes.

These threads are pretty repetative but god damn is it nice to vent once in a while and realise just how superior PC gaming is. I was playing Eve online, finishing FEAR2 this weekend in 2560x1600, feels good man.
 
same like movies. most people wanna see a lot of explosions and actions in a movie. no1 likes to see character development and story like the watchmen. everybody wants a xmen movie rather then a movie like the watchmen
 
I am with the OP. FC2 and FEAR2 have left a very bad taste in my mouth. I just hope that the new Wolfenstein will not suffer from consolitis also.
 
You should have posted this in the PC Gaming & Hardware subforum, so that my simple brain didn't have to see the title as I moved onto the Console Gaming & Acc. subforum, the real future of gaming!

Consoles ftw! mwuhaha
 
damonposey said:
Can someone define consolitus? All I picture when I hear that term is sluggish controls
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Definitions will probably vary according to the player, as some people don't find some things as annoying as others. Take Fallout 3, for example, even at 2560x1600 I have to scroll through relatively short dialogue options because the font is so damn big. Those fonts probably look great when you're sitting on your couch playing the game on a 50" screen, but not when you're a little over a foot away from your 30" monitor. It doesn't ruin the game, but it's quite obvious where this issue stems from: consolitis, the unfortunate remnants of a game designed with a console in mind and the PC as money on the side.

For most multiplatform games control issues will probably make up the majority of consolitis symptoms, so I can see why you'd think that.
 
heatsinker said:
Definitions will probably vary according to the player, as some people don't find some things as annoying as others. Take Fallout 3, for example, even at 2560x1600 I have to scroll through relatively short dialogue options because the font is so damn big. Those fonts probably look great when you're sitting on your couch playing the game on a 50" screen, but not when you're a little over a foot away from your 30" monitor. It doesn't ruin the game, but it's quite obvious where this issue stems from: consolitis, the unfortunate remnants of a game designed with a console in mind and the PC as money on the side.

For most multiplatform games control issues will probably make up the majority of consolitis symptoms, so I can see why you'd think that.
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+1

Common gripes for me are mouse acceleration left over from crap gamepad correction, auto aim features we dont need, small FOVs, often lacking graphics, lack of proper graphics conrols (e.g. AA/AF) the list goes on and on, everything from dumbed down gameplay to stupid non-scaleable HUDS, broken widescreen etc
 
I'm not sure I get the point about The Witcher. It's a PC game, it wasn't ported from the consoles, and is only now being ported to the 360 and PS3. Not to mention it's a genuinely great game. If you picked it up expecting it to be a some Doom-style FPS, you should have at least looked at the box first.
 
Frostex said:
+1

Common gripes for me are mouse acceleration left over from crap gamepad correction, auto aim features we dont need, small FOVs, often lacking graphics, lack of proper graphics conrols (e.g. AA/AF) the list goes on and on, everything from dumbed down gameplay to stupid non-scaleable HUDS, broken widescreen etc
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Wait a minute you are describing FEAR2!!!!!! LOL
 
heatlesssun said:
You missed my point. Console hardware comes from the PC market. Are you saying that console hardware isn't subsidized? Clearly it is. Hardware manufacturers need the PC market to make money on their hardware. ATI and nVidia make a lot more profit on PC hardware than they do on console hardware and games on the PC help to drive these hardware sales.

PC's are used many tasks thus their beauty. But gaming is an important one and there are some people like myself that out spend consolers or the hardware and software side by a good bit. For some of us $1500 is just a fraction of what or rigs cost. We just like to do it. We like gaming on the PC and are willing to spend the money to do it.
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You missed my point so I put that in bold for ya... PC hardware will not die off if PC gaming died. (Which it won't die anyway which is why these threads are useless.) Just hypothecially speaking here. There are millions of PCs out there with plenty of hardware that are not used for gaming.
 
Call me when consoles can play it at 2560x1600 resolution like my Dell 3007WFP-HC does at high (60-70+) FPS and high-quality sound cards work with them too. Also of course they need to have super-high-res textures to make it look good and high-end shader/particle effects. Oh, and please make sure they run that with games like Company of Heroes, World In Conflict, Warhammer Online, Crysis Warhead, heck even Mirror's Edge with those kinds of settings & PhysX, etc. Don't forget, the PC still does alllllll the other stuff a PC can do, so make sure the console has really really big advantages for games before letting me know too, while being fully extensible and moddable like many PC games are!

P.S. They have to exceed whatever my PC at that time can do ;).
 
GoldenTiger said:
Call me when consoles can play it at 2560x1600 resolution like my Dell 3007WFP-HC does at high (60-70+) FPS and high-quality sound cards work with them too. Also of course they need to have super-high-res textures to make it look good and high-end shader/particle effects. Oh, and please make sure they run that with games like Company of Heroes, World In Conflict, Warhammer Online, Crysis Warhead, heck even Mirror's Edge with those kinds of settings & PhysX, etc. Don't forget, the PC still does alllllll the other stuff a PC can do, so make sure the console has really really big advantages for games before letting me know too, while being fully extensible and moddable like many PC games are!

P.S. They have to exceed whatever my PC at that time can do ;).
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QFT
 
PaleRider101 said:
hehehe.... Nice Gritarrasdeamor........ My point is that i want more game like the ones that i pointed out above..... but we are going to continue to get games like:
Gothic
Witcher
Mass Effect
Assassins Creed

If we dont speek up!
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I just wanted to point out...Witcher was developed for PC first and foremost and is now just finally getting a console release after 2 years or however long it's been since it's first release. And it is a great RPG. So I don't quite get why it's in a list of releases that were console first and pc second.
 
Litfod said:
I'm not sure I get the point about The Witcher. It's a PC game, it wasn't ported from the consoles, and is only now being ported to the 360 and PS3. Not to mention it's a genuinely great game. If you picked it up expecting it to be a some Doom-style FPS, you should have at least looked at the box first.
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Second that. I did find the OTS view on witcher a bit annoying at first but I then grew to really like it. It added character to the game. A game which IMHO was one of the best games in the last few years.
 
Both console and PC gaming got ruined when consoles started "emulating" pcs and entering PC's turf with FPS, RTS and other genres that do not belong on a console.

On console's part, it lost innovation and new games, on PC's part it got weaker games cause the consoles dragged it down.

FPS are the "big thing" nowadays, and story, gameplay and everything else takes a backseat to graphics and how much you can destroy.

You know come to think of it, movies nowadays are the same too, all flash no substance.


In a year or two PC technology will completely outdo the consoles and then the developers might start thinking about PC exclusives.... on the other hand, in couple of years(around 2011,2012) the new generation of consoles is going to be released, so the developers might "stretch it out a bit" with the sequels(the new CoD6 is going to be the same as CoD4 pretty much, cause the technology(dvd space, graphics, etc) is on the limit, and start releasing new games on the new consoles and pcs simultaneously again... and if they also manage to somehow invent something for the consoles to replace a K&M for FPS, you can pretty much wave PC gaming goodbye.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Call me when consoles can play it at 2560x1600 resolution like my Dell 3007WFP-HC does at high (60-70+) FPS and high-quality sound cards work with them too. Also of course they need to have super-high-res textures to make it look good and high-end shader/particle effects. Oh, and please make sure they run that with games like Company of Heroes, World In Conflict, Warhammer Online, Crysis Warhead, heck even Mirror's Edge with those kinds of settings & PhysX, etc. Don't forget, the PC still does alllllll the other stuff a PC can do, so make sure the console has really really big advantages for games before letting me know too, while being fully extensible and moddable like many PC games are!

P.S. They have to exceed whatever my PC at that time can do ;).
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Call me when the setup to play all of that is less than $2000. Where a PS3 and a laptop or desktop with decent specs allow folks to do picture stuff surf the internet and play movies and doesn't sound like it's about to take off and can all be had under $1000 even $800. See that is your hobby 99 percent of the public think you're an idiot for spending that kind of coin on your rig. Fact of the matter is consoles are popular because most people look at games as a past time. They may be into you know other stuff like photography classical music skydiving and like to play games as a past time and don't want to re finance their house to play Crysis maxed out at 2560x1600. That is the majority live with it. And guess what they actually buy games. Surprise!!!! Why can't they be catered to also? Most people don't want to tweak their PC's to squeeze those last frames of performance they want a console that looks great on their HDTV and offers a wide variety of games and features. I see nothing wrong with that.
 
Commander0Zero said:
Call me when the setup to play all of that is less than $2000. Where a PS3 and a laptop or desktop with decent specs allow folks to do picture stuff surf the internet and play movies and doesn't sound like it's about to take off and can all be had under $1000 even $800. See that is your hobby 99 percent of the public think you're an idiot for spending that kind of coin on your rig. Fact of the matter is consoles are popular because most people look at games as a past time. They may be into you know other stuff like photography classical music skydiving and like to play games as a past time and don't want to re finance their house to play Crysis maxed out at 2560x1600. That is the majority live with it. And guess what they actually buy games. Surprise!!!! Why can't they be catered to also? Most people don't want to tweak their PC's to squeeze those last frames of performance they want a console that looks great on their HDTV and offers a wide variety of games and features. I see nothing wrong with that.
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And some people spend £1000 on clothes and going out drinking alchole
 
jonneymendoza said:
And some people spend £1000 on clothes and going out drinking alchole
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See how that was stated. This is my point. Different things mean different things to people. I personally will buy a $100 pair of jeans and go to a nice nightclub and spend a good bit of coin and some folks think that is ridiculous. As with spending lots of cash on a PC some folks think that's ridiculous. Look at it this way the True Religion crowd is not crying about that the gap and Levi's is destroying the jeans business. The main stream drives the market and they make nice jeans to boot. But for greater quality (and it is greater quality in most cases) you spend a little more but here again the majority drives the market with their dollars.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Call me when consoles can play it at 2560x1600 resolution like my Dell 3007WFP-HC does at high (60-70+) FPS and high-quality sound cards work with them too. Also of course they need to have super-high-res textures to make it look good and high-end shader/particle effects. Oh, and please make sure they run that with games like Company of Heroes, World In Conflict, Warhammer Online, Crysis Warhead, heck even Mirror's Edge with those kinds of settings & PhysX, etc. Don't forget, the PC still does alllllll the other stuff a PC can do, so make sure the console has really really big advantages for games before letting me know too, while being fully extensible and moddable like many PC games are!.
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And, yet, many people (including me) don't care about that. I don't care about life-like ultra-realistic graphics at 70 FPS. I just want a fun game. A game that I can sit down and relax with for short periods of time, that doesn't require extensive patching and driver updates. Sit down, turn it on, and have fun. I've seen Fallout 3 on the PC, and I own it for the Xbox. The graphical difference of the PC made no difference to me; the game was fun regardless of the distance vectors, shadowing, and FSAA. I was sick of the game (and many others) constantly crashing on the PC, as well.

I think the crux of PC gaming are the people that demand the latest and greatest cutting-edge, and then tout that as the sole advantage of the platform. More focus is put into graphics and style than actual story and gameplay. I think too many people see gaming as a way to show off what their rig is capable of to their friends. Therefore, instead being gamers, they want a status symbol to show how much disposable income they have so that they can feel loved. They game for their rig and not for the enjoyment of the game itself.

Yes, it's a lot of fun to drive around in my 395ci, 400HP truck. But, it requires extensive monitoring, warm-up times, and the ability to stand loud noises. Many times, I'd rather just get in my cheap $2000 car and not worry about being the fastest at the light. Sometimes it may be cool to sit down and do a space-shuttle crank, flipping a dozen switches, monitoring a dozen gauges, ensuring a clean burn, but it's much easier to just sit down, turn a key, and go.

IMO
// pouring more kerosene on the fire
 
Focker said:
You missed my point so I put that in bold for ya... PC hardware will not die off if PC gaming died. (Which it won't die anyway which is why these threads are useless.) Just hypothecially speaking here. There are millions of PCs out there with plenty of hardware that are not used for gaming.
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Sure this is all theoretical and yes PC gaming isn't going to die. But without games helping to drive PC hardware, sure we'd have PC hardware, but its hard imagine that not having games on the PC wouldn't effect hardware sales at the higher end of the spectrum. Games help push higher end hardware and more profitable hardware than the crap that's in most PC's.
 
Have you ever played Gothic 1, 2 or notr? I assume you only saw a screen shot. The gothic series, save for 3, is about as hardcore pc as you can get. NOR is one of the toughest rpg ever. The combat system for both is quite complex, with gothic 1 needing serious keyboard skills, and gothic 2 needing more mouse skills. The series never hold your hands. I'm sorry but if your looking for examples of consolization use mass effect or bio shock or fallout 3 or obvlivion. Gothic 1,2,notr are pc through and through, and so much the better for it.
 
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