Conroe debunked

[brucedeluxe169]

umm, the mobile line is Merom....


and I dont think 3.5 Conroe is like 3.5 AMD, because Conroe is a different architecture, a more refined one as far as i can tell and it will ramp higher i'd bet... i mean... once again, we have 3+ghz OC'ed Yonahs already........

 

[coldpower27]

The good part is, with this new architecture we get a lot more per megahert than a FX-60 ...ok, so maybe not a LOT more, but its still quite a step from NetBurst. I hope this architecture develops its own mobile line. Users have said the 2.4 is able to be used with a passive sink, and im thinking that makes it a great candidate for a mobile solution. Ideas?

Nice thing is they can still claim superiority thru MHZ over AMD as Conroe is poised to have greater GHZ then Athlon 64x2.

The mobile lines uses the Merom core, Core Architecture is poised to enter into each segment of the market.

Merom = Mobile
Conroe = Desktop
Server = Woodcrest

 

[Donnie27]

I never said it wouldn't. The current benchmarks have shown this and I think Conroe is pretty damn impressive. What I have been trying to state here time and time again, though, is I will wait until both Conroe and K8L are simultaneously available before choosing my upgrade path sometime between February and April of next year. I will not place myself in a position to get my hopes up from marketing BS from either AMD or intel.

Sorry, I just don't think AMD has anything and their past actions make me feel that way. By the time K10 or K11 ships, Intel will have been well on the way to Conroe-2. I don't see a need to wait for K8L, IMHO, it will still get spanked.

I'm, not an Intel employee, stockholder or etc.., I don't have any hopes to hang anything on except seeing cheaper prices from Intel and AMD. Conroe is a long way from Marketing BS, hehehehe!

 

[Donnie27]

QFT times 10... seriously, why is this so damn hard for people to see?? ppl are getting Yonahs clocked to 3ghz on air and at those speeds, getting bench results close to what Intel is saying Conroe will be getting.... so what the hell?? Why all the doubt? Yonah was a stopgap, Conroe is the real deal.... At this point, i'm willing to go on record saying that I bet we will see OC'ed Conroes well in the 3.0ghz+ range.... maybe even to the magical 3.5ghz..... and at those speeds.... well... pray for AMD....

QFT!

 

[LstBrunnenG]

People are still posting in this thread? I wish I had a blog to lend weight to my ramblings.

Look, Conroe will probably pwn. However, you can't actually buy one yet, so let's just wait and see before we buy any...because you can't actually buy any yet. Fair enough?

 

[Emission]

Sorry, I just don't think AMD has anything and their past actions make me feel that way. By the time K10 or K11 ships, Intel will have been well on the way to Conroe-2. I don't see a need to wait for K8L, IMHO, it will still get spanked.

I'm, not an Intel employee, stockholder or etc.., I don't have any hopes to hang anything on except seeing cheaper prices from Intel and AMD. Conroe is a long way from Marketing BS, hehehehe!

And with a new CPU, especially a new architecture/product line, comes price cuts! BRING ON THE PRICE CUTS!! YEAH! Intel is scheduled for a price cut before and after Conroe, either that, or two price cuts before Conroe, and one after.

 

[Donnie27]

Let me get this straight. At IDF, Intel benchmarked Conroe, the results were amazing, yet "It was faked, etc." Anandtech benchmarked it, great results, yet "It's fake, crap, etc." An XS member gets ahold of an ES of Conroe, runs it on a craptastic motherboard, with a craptastic bios, it benches great, yet "Wait until a real world sample." At the same time, we are reminded "You guys don't know how powerful AM2 will be." AM2 gets benched, and it's "Try this, that can't be right, run this DDR2, update this, etc." because, like many predicted, it's a small (in some cases, negative) percentage increase.

Now some guy posts FUD on his blog, and it's gospel?

I agree, let's really get excited when Conroe makes it way to review sites, etc. But considering that all the 'preview' examples of it are showing great results, I expect the launch results to be better than what we've seen. It'll have a board, bios, and a couple of months for optimization of both.

All IMHO.

http://www.hardware.fr/medias/screenshots.php?id=IMG0011726
http://www.gateway.com/home/products/ret/ret_dtp_catalog.shtml

So when will all of the AMD Fans saying BTX wouldn't work for AMD and nVidia take back the crap they wrote? nVidia Chipsets BTX with 6100 Graphics and a PCI-E slot BTW! I said then and I'll say it again. These companies have always bad mouthed good tech when they didn't have it, have it yet or will never have it. Want to dig up that BTX thread while we're at it?

Circuit City

They' re on sale now.

Of Course Conroe will be bad mouthed while AMD is still stuck on K8. K8 might not be Conroe but it is still kick-ass.

 

[Donnie27]

And with a new CPU, especially a new architecture/product line, comes price cuts! BRING ON THE PRICE CUTS!! YEAH! Intel is scheduled for a price cut before and after Conroe, either that, or two price cuts before Conroe, and one after.

Intel on record for the 23rd of April cuts, there might be another before Conroe and and another after. The 65nm Processors are cheaper for Intel to make and they'll still rake in profits.

 

[PureBooYah]

People are still posting in this thread? I wish I had a blog to lend weight to my ramblings.

Look, Conroe will probably pwn. However, you can't actually buy one yet, so let's just wait and see before we buy any...because you can't actually buy any yet. Fair enough?

people always say that about any hardware, but speculation is half the fun. once something is released, you don't see any good debate threads so now is the only time to have them. besides, this forum would be a little more dull if you couldn't discuss your opinions and theories about upcoming hardware.

i love reading these types of threads. they get me more excited about product releases and give me something interesting to read.

 

[Emission]

Intel on record for the 23rd of April cuts, there might be another before Conroe and and another after. The 65nm Processors are cheaper for Intel to make and they'll still rake in profits.

Lots of advantages to 65nm too. Its most likely one of the reasons why Intel can sell the Conroe for a lot lower than the FX-60.

 

[empoy]

this is one amusing thread

 

[r0t0man]

this is one amusing thread

heh, agreed. Amazing that some guys post on a blog can make for a 11+ page thread.

 

[JetUsafMech]

Want to dig up that BTX thread while we're at it?

LOL...as I recall, you, I, and maybe a handful of other people on the [H] were commenting on the advantages of BTX, but, of course, since Intel was involved....
Curiously, the same thing could be said of PCI-E, DDR2, but I digress.

Something that people are forgetting is that Intel is going BTX-- http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1028595

I'm personally hoping that Intel (Abit, Asus, whomever I go with) will release a BTX Conroe board when I upgrade, so I'm not shafted in '07 (of course, I DO NOT think ATX will go anywhere soon).

Sorry to go off-topic, but the way this thread has gone....meh.

 

[JetUsafMech]

people always say that about any hardware, but speculation is half the fun. once something is released, you don't see any good debate threads so now is the only time to have them. besides, this forum would be a little more dull if you couldn't discuss your opinions and theories about upcoming hardware.

i love reading these types of threads. they get me more excited about product releases and give me something interesting to read.

I agree with you 100%. Though I'm really shocked at how civil this thread has remained.

 

[OC_LeGeND]

this is one amusing thread

its pretty amusing if u ask me all the different opions u hear

 

[Dew]

These companies have always bad mouthed good tech when they didn't have it, have it yet or will never have it. Want to dig up that BTX thread while we're at it?

So true. You notice a lot of high end cases are now inverted ATX? Most the advantages of BTX, all the advantages of widely available ATX.

 

[DejaWiz]

Sorry, I just don't think AMD has anything and their past actions make me feel that way. By the time K10 or K11 ships, Intel will have been well on the way to Conroe-2. I don't see a need to wait for K8L, IMHO, it will still get spanked.

I'm, not an Intel employee, stockholder or etc.., I don't have any hopes to hang anything on except seeing cheaper prices from Intel and AMD. Conroe is a long way from Marketing BS, hehehehe!

And that may very well be the case. Something tells me that AMD will be struggling to release something that will perform at the same level that Conroe does, but they've surprised the market before. Both companies have until Feb-Apr of next year to show me what the better buy will be.

As far as me needing to wait, well, that's because I won't have the money for an upgrade of this magnitude until Uncle Sam admits he overcharged me on taxation every payday and provides the difference via direct deposit.

If I could afford the upgrade shortly after Conroe comes out, I would likely be jumping in with both feet. The thought of going from a 3000+ @ 2.4GHz to a Conroe at any GHz causes some serious salivation! But, damn, money talks....

 

[Donnie27]

Lots of advantages to 65nm too. Its most likely one of the reasons why Intel can sell the Conroe for a lot lower than the FX-60.

You got it! Not only the FX-60 but all of the X2's will be undercut clock for clock and then some.

 

[Donnie27]

LOL...as I recall, you, I, and maybe a handful of other people on the [H] were commenting on the advantages of BTX, but, of course, since Intel was involved....
Curiously, the same thing could be said of PCI-E, DDR2, but I digress.

Something that people are forgetting is that Intel is going BTX-- http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1028595

I'm personally hoping that Intel (Abit, Asus, whomever I go with) will release a BTX Conroe board when I upgrade, so I'm not shafted in '07 (of course, I DO NOT think ATX will go anywhere soon).

Sorry to go off-topic, but the way this thread has gone....meh.

I was thinking more of this thread. http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1009048

I was thinking this thread and no, I don't think it is off topic at all. Current ATX i965 and etc.. are like the old Asus P2B AT of its day. These had one mission in life and that was to keep AT cases alive. Like the guy on the Blog that caused this thread, anything AMD didn't have at the time is bad. They even said the BTX layout wouldn't work with their/nVidia's Chipsets. They lied and most of their backers lied as well. SO folks who trust them like several posters here, accept these lies and PR as fact.

 

[Donnie27]

And that may very well be the case. Something tells me that AMD will be struggling to release something that will perform at the same level that Conroe does, but they've surprised the market before. Both companies have until Feb-Apr of next year to show me what the better buy will be.

As far as me needing to wait, well, that's because I won't have the money for an upgrade of this magnitude until Uncle Sam admits he overcharged me on taxation every payday and provides the difference via direct deposit.

If I could afford the upgrade shortly after Conroe comes out, I would likely be jumping in with both feet. The thought of going from a 3000+ @ 2.4GHz to a Conroe at any GHz causes some serious salivation! But, damn, money talks....

One wrong turn and I don't get to upgrade either.

 

[DejaWiz]

Ofcourse it also helps that I am an experienced assembly and Direct3D programmer, so I know a lot about what goes on inside CPUs and videocards, and I don't get fooled easily by some smooth-talking marketing people.

I'm happy you have that experience, I really am. But something tells me at one point in your life or another you were just as succeptible to marketing hype as the next joe-schmoe. Your talents to identify hype were not given as a birthright. If you think someone has a shortcoming in this department, why don't you help them be able to identify marketing BS and buzzwords and whatnot instead of mocking or belitteling them?


I'm being cautious so I don't get obsessed with the stats and current benchmarks, thus falling into a pit that may lead to disappointment come time for me to upgrade......the fact remains that it is not currently Feb-Apr 2007 so I will not even begin to look at my upgrade options until that timeframe arrives.

So please, how about you ease up off any of us that don't program in Assembler or D3D?

 

[ToastMaster]

Sorry, I just don't think AMD has anything and their past actions make me feel that way. By the time K10 or K11 ships, Intel will have been well on the way to Conroe-2. I don't see a need to wait for K8L, IMHO, it will still get spanked.

I'm, not an Intel employee, stockholder or etc.., I don't have any hopes to hang anything on except seeing cheaper prices from Intel and AMD. Conroe is a long way from Marketing BS, hehehehe!

Just to add: K10 doesn't truly exist, and I've never seen anyone mention anything about a K11 core. (K10 being the AM2 socket revisions if I'm not mistaken, K9 having been dual-core).

And I'd be interested in knowing why you think K8L is going to be spanked. For somebody who claims to not be biased towards one company or another, you sure seem to discredit AMD already on a architecture that won't even see the light of day in any way till early 2007.

The fact of the matter is, I'm willing to bet that when the first Yonah results came out, showing that a 2Ghz Yonah wasn't better than a 3800+, and websites tried to use Yonah as a "Conroe preview", that many people here were talking about how much Intel was going to be spanked this year as well. Then, lo and behold, Conroe gets debuted and early-tested, and all of a sudden, we see this huge performance increase. Now everyone is going and saying "AMD will have nothing to answer with for the next few years". Yeah, alright, last time I checked, you, nor anyone else here, works in AMD's engineering design labs, and thus don't know anything about AMD's plans.

We have AMD execs on the record stating that K8L will be an architecture change. It won't be a complete redesign of the K8 architecture, but that doesn't mean they can't make smaller changes to improve performance (zRam, possibly making the Athlon 64 4-issues wide, etc.). By all accounts, K8L has been in development for quite some time, and by the time it debuts, on the 65nm process, it may have what is needed to equalize performance or even surpass that of Conroe and such. Either way, we all benefit.

And don't take this to mean I'm an AMD fan only. I like both companies, although I do slightly prefer AMD simply because the last few years they've designed very nice processors, and have kept Intel on their toes. I'm waiting for Conroe as much as the next person, as with Conroe comes Merom, and the sooner Merom is out, the faster Apple can adopt it for the MacBookPros and I can buy one .

Let's just not dig the grave for AMD just yet. Besides, in a completely unrelated but somewhat humical relation to this, the XBox was performance-wise greatly superior to the PS2, but that didn't stop people from buying millions and millions of the PS2

 

[Donnie27]

Just to add: K10 doesn't truly exist, and I've never seen anyone mention anything about a K11 core. (K10 being the AM2 socket revisions if I'm not mistaken, K9 having been dual-core).

And I'd be interested in knowing why you think K8L is going to be spanked. For somebody who claims to not be biased towards one company or another, you sure seem to discredit AMD already on a architecture that won't even see the light of day in any way till early 2007.

Link me to my saying I was unbiased. I used K10 and K11 as names of the REAL 65nm upgraded processor and not a smaller K8, sinlge or dual core. We're on a thread where Conroe is called Marketing BS and you make statements like this?

You're right though, I don't know what mods AMD will do the K8 but it sill still be K8. You can Add Pacific, Z-RAM and other featuress but it is still K8. Did you miss the part where I said even if Conroe is faster it doesn't mean K8 will suck?

The fact of the matter is, I'm willing to bet that when the first Yonah results came out, showing that a 2Ghz Yonah wasn't better than a 3800+,

Fact, misuse of Fact to start with.. better or not tended to depend on which site's review you believed. Yonah had a handicapped motherboard that Conroe doesn't. Conroe has a little over 50% more Processor and Memory bandwidth, another ALU for sure, Micro-Ops fusion and etc... why in the hell wouldn't be faster?

and websites tried to use Yonah as a "Conroe preview", that many people here were talking about how much Intel was going to be spanked this year as well. Then, lo and behold, Conroe gets debuted and early-tested, and all of a sudden, we see this huge performance increase.

That statement is VOID of any infomation from any review/reviews, forum chat with Dothan and Yonah owners and every and anything else. Anyone, even many AMD fans already know what the heck Pentium-M as whole can do already. Unlike AM2 and K8L, Conroe is a real upgrade and the Processor after K8L is what I'm looking forward to, not like AMD fans dreading the launch of Conroe. I can't wait until AMD ships anything that even shows a 5% gain over Conroe and not cost what X2 and FX does across the board.

Now everyone is going and saying "AMD will have nothing to answer with for the next few years". Yeah, alright, last time I checked, you, nor anyone else here, works in AMD's engineering design labs, and thus don't know anything about AMD's plans.

I didn't either, I said the rest of this year and until the real upgrade to K8 shows up, not a mod to K8.

We have AMD execs on the record stating that K8L will be an architecture change. It won't be a complete redesign of the K8 architecture, but that doesn't mean they can't make smaller changes to improve performance (zRam, possibly making the Athlon 64 4-issues wide, etc.). By all accounts, K8L has been in development for quite some time, and by the time it debuts, on the 65nm process, it may have what is needed to equalize performance or even surpass that of Conroe and such. Either way, we all benefit.

Account? I want Demos. What are AMD execs supposed to say? They suck right now and don't buy until next year? It's not like they've never been wrong. They've demo-ed NOTHING that comes close to Conroe. Even the amount of time Conroe can be called Vapor or Bunk is running out.

And don't take this to mean I'm an AMD fan only. I like both companies, although I do slightly prefer AMD simply because the last few years they've designed very nice processors, and have kept Intel on their toes. I'm waiting for Conroe as much as the next person, as with Conroe comes Merom, and the sooner Merom is out, the faster Apple can adopt it for the MacBookPros and I can buy one .

Let's just not dig the grave for AMD just yet. Besides, in a completely unrelated but somewhat humical relation to this, the XBox was performance-wise greatly superior to the PS2, but that didn't stop people from buying millions and millions of the PS2

I never dug AMD a grave and have said many times setbacks don't kill companies, it makes them stronger. Competition is a TWO-WAY street. I tend to agree with the Intel leaning folks because they seem far less full of BS than the AMD followers, like the Blogger who caused this thread.

I vote with my Wallet, my last build was a 3500+ and Asus A8N this past Dec. I was BIASED for that system. Conroe ships and God willing I'll buy it, be BIASED for it. The Next AMD great processor ships, I'll be BIASED for it. I prefer whichever is better for my needs when I need or want it. I like my older P4 2.6C at 3.3GHz 24/7 over anything AMD had until X2 shipped and its price sucked!

I said K11 meaning just the next processor. All the different names can be seen as BS, since all have Athlon K8 at its root. If X2 is K9, then there really isn't a difference enough to call AM2 K10, oh wait they added Pacifica VT and DDR2 support, yeppie! I gave links to AMD talking about K9 and just using the X2 name instead of K9 (Dog). K10, dewd, if Intel use names like AMD did, they'd be trashed far and wide.

 

[ToastMaster]

You're right though, I don't know what mods AMD will do the K8 but it sill still be K8. You can Add Pacific, Z-RAM and other featuress but it is still K8. Did you miss the part where I said even if Conroe is faster it doesn't mean K8 will suck?

" I don't see a need to wait for K8L, IMHO, it will still get spanked.". Usually, when you say something will "get spanked", it means it sucks compared to the competing product. Atleast, that's how I take it (and I figure most people in the English-speaking world would). So let me ask you this: Yonah was essentially a heavily modified P3, and yet I don't see you referring to it as a P3. Why? If that's the case, why would you refer to a possibly heavily-modified K8 as simply being "K8". The fact that AMD calls it K8L means it is derived from the K8 core, as I'm sure you know.

Fact, misuse of Fact to start with.. better or not tended to depend on which site's review you believed. Yonah had a handicapped motherboard that Conroe doesn't. Conroe has a little over 50% more Processor and Memory bandwidth, another ALU for sure, Micro-Ops fusion and etc... why in the hell wouldn't be faster?

Um, where did I say that Conroe wouldn't be faster, exactly? I stated an allegory for the type of reaction people are now having to AMD's plight, as to how some websites responded in terms of the performance of Yonah, and how some websites had attempted to sort-of view Yonah as a "Conroe predicter". And to further bolster that idea...

That statement is VOID of any infomation from any review/reviews, forum chat with Dothan and Yonah owners and every and anything else. Anyone, even many AMD fans already know what the heck Pentium-M as whole can do already. Unlike AM2 and K8L, Conroe is a real upgrade and the Processor after K8L is what I'm looking forward to, not like AMD fans dreading the launch of Conroe. I can't wait until AMD ships anything that even shows a 5% gain over Conroe and not cost what X2 and FX does across the board.

Um, concerning the 3800X2 vs. Yonah, as well as the fact that if you actually read this article, you'll see that Anandtech was trying to view Yonah as being a sort-of early "estimate" as to what Conroe may have in store, here you go:

Anandtech Preview 1

Anandtech Preview II

I'm pretty certain that at default settings, the 3800 X2 is pretty much beating the equivalently-clocked Yonah in almost all those tests. Granted, I will give you that it is an "unnamed Yonah motherboard", but it's still 945G-based.

I never mentioned anything concerning Yonah's performance overclocked because, quite honestly, 90% of the time these processors will not be overclocked by the end consumer (as well as the fact that I personally don't care at all about overclocking or not). However, there's a little bit of "fact" for you, and thus showing my statements were not "void of any information".

I didn't either, I said the rest of this year and until the real upgrade to K8 shows up, not a mod to K8.

Explain to me how a very serious modification to K8 could not help equalize performance or allow AMD to retake the performance lead? If you increase cache, increase speeds (via the 65nm process), and make modifications to the K8 core itself in terms of how many issues wide it is, or the number of pipelines it uses, I can guarantee you'd see a rather serious performance boost (not perhaps by the cache increases, but if they actualy do architectural changes, you would). Thus, don't make comments concerning mods when in reality, you can't say how it would affect performance.

Account? I want Demos. What are AMD execs supposed to say? They suck right now and don't buy until next year? It's not like they've never been wrong. They've demo-ed NOTHING that comes close to Conroe. Even the amount of time Conroe can be called Vapor or Bunk is running out.

Ok, and how long was Conroe in development for before Intel finally demoed it? Exactly. All I said is, is that AMD has stated that they're working on K8L, that it will have architectural changes to it, and that it is coming. That's it. I don't know why you decided to bring up the demo idea exactly, but I agree. Until we actually know more, and then actually see a working product, K8L is only a paper-item. However, all I wanted to point out, that what I view as AMD's proper "answer" is in the works, and is coming. How fast, we don't know. But they are working on it. Now if you still have a problem with that idea, well, you'll have to deal with that yourself.

I never dug AMD a grave and have said many times setbacks don't kill companies, it makes them stronger. Competition is a TWO-WAY street. I tend to agree with the Intel leaning folks because they seem far less full of BS than the AMD followers, like the Blogger who caused this thread.

I'm guessing you don't remember the Intel-dominated years. Too bad.

Anyway, I fully agree, the blogger who caused this thread did make some rather erroneous issues. However, there are a few very small areas that I would like to see, such as Conroe's 64-bit performance. If Conroe is using essentialy the same emt64 instructions as all of Intel's current 64-bit processors, and I hope to god it isn't, then once we do all begin to fully transition to 64-bit Vista and games, Conroe will be in for a very rude awakening.

And I'm an AMD fan, but when Conroe comes out, and 965 comes out, I'll probably upgrade to a Conroe-based system, if I'm not out buying a 1080p tv or my MacBookPro at the time. Then, next year, if AMD retakes the lead, I'll upgrade back to whatever AMD's processor is. I support AMD more than I do Intel, just like I do Apple over Microsoft (I prefer OS X), and nVidia over ATI (though that has more to do with the fact that I view SLI as a 3Dfx-derived product series, and a part of me still loves 3Dfx).

However, to be fully honest, I've very rarely ever seen you in the AMD forums, pre-Conroe, praising AMD for anything. It could just be cause I didn't use to spend as much time in them months ago though.

I vote with my Wallet, my last build was a 3500+ and Asus A8N this past Dec. I was BIASED for that system. Conroe ships and God willing I'll buy it, be BIASED for it. The Next AMD great processor ships, I'll be BIASED for it. I prefer whichever is better for my needs when I need or want it. I like my older P4 2.6C at 3.3GHz 24/7 over anything AMD had until X2 shipped and its price sucked!

But see, that's the problem. I honestly don't think you should be biased towards any particular product. I used to be that way, and it always ended up leading to arguements with friends, a feeling like I "had" to prove what I was biased towards was obviously better in all ways, etc. In the end, I realized that being biased just tends to make people not like you, and ultimately it's for naught (though my bias was more console-related). Now, I appreciate what AMD has done for all of us, whether people here admit it or not, and it's made Intel a better company for it.

That said, one thing perturbs me. If you vote with your wallet, and you're willing to shell the probable $350 or whatever of the 2.4ghz, 4mb cache Conroe, plus the cost of motherboard, etc., why then weren't you willing to shell out the $300 on a 3800 X2 in Dec., instead of the 3500+. You said you liked your P4 2.6C over anything AMD had until the X2s shipped (which thus means you like your P4 over your 3500+, I might point out), and yet, when a obviously superior product came out, you didn't buy it when you upgraded to an AMD system. Seems like a quagmire to me. ::confused look::

I said K11 meaning just the next processor. All the different names can be seen as BS, since all have Athlon K8 at its root. If X2 is K9, then there really isn't a difference enough to call AM2 K10, oh wait they added Pacifica VT and DDR2 support, yeppie! I gave links to AMD talking about K9 and just using the X2 name instead of K9 (Dog). K10, dewd, if Intel use names like AMD did, they'd be trashed far and wide.

I agree, AMD's core-naming system is rather screwed up. From what I've read and heard others say, K8L isn't just a slight tacking-on of some basic technologies, similar to how the naming of K9 and K10 were. It does remain to be seen, but supposedly it's going to be a rather nice core modification. As you pointed out though, there are no demos, so all we have at the moment is hearsay.

There is one aspect though of the Conroe/Merom/Woodcrest architecture however that does concern me, and that is how it'll scare. The FSB is honestly the weak-link in the architecture. Now Intel has optimized it, and there will almost certainly be no issue with dual-core. But what about when we move to quad-core, and beyond? My fear may be for nothing, but the fact that supposedly Intel has ES of Kentsfield, and yet noone has seen its performance, almost makes me wonder if Intel knows it has a problem, and doesn't yet have a proper solution.

Either way, I generally espect you a lot Donnie, so don't take any of it personally.

 

[coldpower27]

That said, one thing perturbs me. If you vote with your wallet, and you're willing to shell the probable $350 or whatever of the 2.4ghz, 4mb cache Conroe, plus the cost of motherboard, etc., why then weren't you willing to shell out the $300 on a 3800 X2 in Dec., instead of the 3500+. You said you liked your P4 2.6C over anything AMD had until the X2s shipped (which thus means you like your P4 over your 3500+, I might point out), and yet, when a obviously superior product came out, you didn't buy it when you upgraded to an AMD system. Seems like a quagmire to me. ::confused look::

Just to nitpick some, the prices for an Athlon 64 3500+ in the past December was only 200US or so with the X2 3800+ being 330US at the time. The Conroe 2.4GHZ/4MB/1066FSB is gonna be around 330US or so at launch as well, so the difference wasn't exactly trivial at that point.

Exact prices are as follows

In Demcember
3500+ = 205US
x2 3800+ = 328US

Conroe 2.4GHZ/4Mb at launch in Q3/2006 = 316US

Maybe he didn't have the extra 130US lying around for Dual Core at the particular time who knows. It was a new system right? So he needed a motherboard for the S939 system as well?

Go to Xbitlabs and Intel has demo a ES of Clovertown DP, which is the Xeon equivalent of Kentsfield.

 

[ToastMaster]

Just to nitpick some, the prices for an Athlon 64 3500+ in the past December was only 200US or so with the X2 3800+ being 330US at the time. The Conroe 2.4GHZ/4MB/1066FSB is gonna be around 330US or so at launch as well, so the difference wasn't exactly trivial at that point.

Exact prices are as follows

In Demcember
3500+ = 205US
x2 3800+ = 328US

Conroe 2.4GHZ/4Mb at launch in Q3/2006 = 316US

Maybe he didn't have the extra 130US lying around for Dual Core at the particular time who knows. It was a new system right? So he needed a motherboard for the S939 system as well?

I agree, 130 isn't exactly a trivial amount either. I was more just bringing up though that for someone who supposedly isn't impressed by anything of AMD's except the X2s, to then forego an X2 and get a 3500+ single-core (granted, it is much cheaper as you pointed out, but upgrading eventually to the Conroe 2.4ghz / 4mb Cache as you pointed out is going to cost roughly the same as the 3800+ X2 did in Dec.) just seems strange to me. That's all.

That 2.4Ghz, 4mb cache Conroe sure does look appealing already though.

 

[Mav451]

However, to be fully honest, I've very rarely ever seen you in the AMD forums, pre-Conroe, praising AMD for anything.

It's because he hasn't praised AMD at all. Do a search on his posts...and you're gonna see that most of them a pro-Intel, pro-Conroe. I searched in "AMD Processors" and nearly all of them are concerning AM2 vs. 9xx, again pro-Intel. I hope someone can prove me wrong, but from those results alone (and the impression I get from this thread), Donnie has always been pro-Intel.

 

[coldpower27]

I agree, 130 isn't exactly a trivial amount either. I was more just bringing up though that for someone who supposedly isn't impressed by anything of AMD's except the X2s, to then forego an X2 and get a 3500+ single-core (granted, it is much cheaper as you pointed out, but upgrading eventually to the Conroe 2.4ghz / 4mb Cache as you pointed out is going to cost roughly the same as the 3800+ X2 did in Dec.) just seems strange to me. That's all.

That 2.4Ghz, 4mb cache Conroe sure does look appealing already though.

I dunno I guess there is just a better feel to it to get the fullly featured version of Intel's Dual Core. As opposed to a mildly crippled one of AMD's. In order to get the Toledo core at that particular time you need to have spent 500US for the 4400+ which is atrocious IMO, the 316US Intel is asking for Conroe on introduction represents my upper limit of what I would spend on a processor, 400 CAN, so getting a full version for this amount has a better feel to me, then getting the lowest model possible aka E6300 for 209US or in AMD's case X2 3800+.

Also if he needs to, he can sell his 3500+ system in order to help raise funds for his Conroe system unless he is keeping it and giving it to someone else to use or as a backup...

 

[Mav451]

Just to nitpick some, the prices for an Athlon 64 3500+ in the past December was only 200US or so with the X2 3800+ being 330US at the time. The Conroe 2.4GHZ/4MB/1066FSB is gonna be around 330US or so at launch as well, so the difference wasn't exactly trivial at that point.

Exact prices are as follows

In Demcember
3500+ = 205US
x2 3800+ = 328US

Why did he get a 3500+ when 144/146 Opterons were cheaper or the same price? Kinda the equivalent of getting a 2.8P4-B when the 2.4P4-C's were out (though I have no idea if the price analogy works haha).

 

[JetUsafMech]

I agree with you 100%. Though I'm really shocked at how civil this thread has remained.

Looks like I spoke too soon.

 

[Emission]

Being that even the 2.4GHz version will be at 330, it sounds pretty good. All the higher end AMD's debuted at a way higher price, look at the FX-60 for example. Even the first X2's were waaaay up there.

 

[PGHammer]

Comparing Conroe die size to Windsor is very legitimiate, as they will be out in the same time frame, as AMD will be still on the 90nm DSL SOI process when Conroe ships, AMD has no one to blame but itself for this. It's not Intel's problem that it is 9-12 months ahead of AMD on the 65nm transistion.

The comparison is legtimate becuase AMD will still be using 90nm technology when Intel is using 65nm such is the problem when your slower then your competitor on process transitions.

Which also explains *why* Intel has been having all sorts of heat issues (yes, with Conroe, but as far back as the 90nm die-shrink, with Prescott). If you increase both the number of transistors and the transistor density (which is whart Intel did with *every* die-shrink), you are going to have *heat dissipation issues* (imagine the Rose Bowl's capacity fit into the space of the Staples Center). Every transistor (regardless of function) throws off heat, increasing transistor density (which happens due to a die-shrink) while also increasing the sheer number of transistors means that there is that much less area left for the heat to escape from. That means that soon it will actually become cost-effective for water-cooling to replace aircooling (if for no other reason than investment safeguarding where Intel *and* AMD are concerned), even though Conroe actually uses fewer clock cycles than either Cedar Mill or Smithfield. Does Conroe, like basically every core back to Williamette, use a quad-pumped FSB (333 MHZ quad-pumped) or did they shift to eight-pumped with the die-shrink?

 

[Donnie27]

" I don't see a need to wait for K8L, IMHO, it will still get spanked.". Usually, when you say something will "get spanked", it means it sucks compared to the competing product. Atleast, that's how I take it (and I figure most people in the English-speaking world would). So let me ask you this: Yonah was essentially a heavily modified P3, and yet I don't see you referring to it as a P3. Why? If that's the case, why would you refer to a possibly heavily-modified K8 as simply being "K8". The fact that AMD calls it K8L means it is derived from the K8 core, as I'm sure you know.

Your point? Get spanked means not and fast and costs more. It could have a 5% more permance and cosst 100% more and still be spanked! Like being trumpped. In any "world" just because something got spanked, doesn't meant it sucks LOL! There would be a looser if a Viper and a Vette were to race, yet, I'd take either.

If you saw my earlier posts, I don't call a Yonah a P3 because it is not a P3, just as an X2 is not a K6-2. Simple uh? Essentially that's BS! I said a K8 is a K8L in the similar way that Netburst Processors=P Conroe is NOT any of them but a mix of the best tech each had to offer. Most folks who know the least little bit about research knows that. Does calling a Conroe a P3 make you guys feel better?

"Um, where did I say that Conroe wouldn't be faster, exactly? I stated an allegory for the type of reaction people are now having to AMD's plight, as to how some websites responded in terms of the performance of Yonah, and how some websites had attempted to sort-of view Yonah as a "Conroe predicter". And to further bolster that idea...

Um, concerning the 3800X2 vs. Yonah, as well as the fact that if you actually read this article, you'll see that Anandtech was trying to view Yonah as being a sort-of early "estimate" as to what Conroe may have in store, here you go:

Anandtech Preview 1

Anandtech Preview II

So Anand did it, then post your problems you had with that item with him?

I'm pretty certain that at default settings, the 3800 X2 is pretty much beating the equivalently-clocked Yonah in almost all those tests. Granted, I will give you that it is an "unnamed Yonah motherboard", but it's still 945G-based.

I never mentioned anything concerning Yonah's performance overclocked because, quite honestly, 90% of the time these processors will not be overclocked by the end consumer (as well as the fact that I personally don't care at all about overclocking or not). However, there's a little bit of "fact" for you, and thus showing my statements were not "void of any information".

Dewd, Anand is NOT the only reviewer who does benchmarks and or the only person who tested Yonah. 945G was NOT built from the ground up to support Yonah like i965 was to support Conroe. What part of that do you NOT getting? All the twisting and spinning in the world will not change that FACT. This is [H]ardOCP and most certainly not
[C]onsumersDOC, that's Consumers Don't Over Clock. Unless its like my 3500+ and feel 130MHz is not worth the trouble LOL!

Explain to me how a very serious modification to K8 could not help equalize performance or allow AMD to retake the performance lead? If you increase cache, increase speeds (via the 65nm process), and make modifications to the K8 core itself in terms of how many issues wide it is, or the number of pipelines it uses, I can guarantee you'd see a rather serious performance boost (not perhaps by the cache increases, but if they actualy do architectural changes, you would). Thus, don't make comments concerning mods when in reality, you can't say how it would affect performance.

Here's what you should do, get those Honest AMD execs to email you the features list YOU BROUGHT UP? That way I don't have to explain anything to you and you can show me just what AMD has, OK? I already said in my other post that first and foremost, K8L is still a K8. AMD is the one responsible for you being in the dark about K8L, not me

Ok, and how long was Conroe in development for before Intel finally demoed it? Exactly. All I said is, is that AMD has stated that they're working on K8L, that it will have architectural changes to it, and that it is coming. That's it. I don't know why you decided to bring up the demo idea exactly, but I agree. Until we actually know more, and then actually see a working product, K8L is only a paper-item. However, all I wanted to point out, that what I view as AMD's proper "answer" is in the works, and is coming. How fast, we don't know. But they are working on it. Now if you still have a problem with that idea, well, you'll have to deal with that yourself.

I brought up Demos because AMD hasn't demoed anything. Most folks visiting forums are aware of that. In the past when AMD has had something, anything, they demo and brag about it. K8L is V-A-P-O-R until they demo it. We now have seen more of Intel's 45nm tech than AMD's 65nm.

I'm guessing you don't remember the Intel-dominated years. Too bad.

I remember them well, I've only been playing with computers since my Commie 64 in 1983 and been building Intel, AMD, Cyrix and VIA even since 1994.

"Anyway, I fully agree, the blogger who caused this thread did make some rather erroneous issues. However, there are a few very small areas that I would like to see, such as Conroe's 64-bit performance. If Conroe is using essentialy the same emt64 instructions as all of Intel's current 64-bit processors, and I hope to god it isn't, then once we do all begin to fully transition to 64-bit Vista and games, Conroe will be in for a very rude awakening.

I think you've read too many AMD Fansites!

And I'm an AMD fan, but when Conroe comes out, and 965 comes out, I'll probably upgrade to a Conroe-based system, if I'm not out buying a 1080p tv or my MacBookPro at the time. Then, next year, if AMD retakes the lead, I'll upgrade back to whatever AMD's processor is. I support AMD more than I do Intel, just like I do Apple over Microsoft (I prefer OS X), and nVidia over ATI (though that has more to do with the fact that I view SLI as a 3Dfx-derived product series, and a part of me still loves 3Dfx).

I'm not a Fan of either, none of my AMDroid buddies would never Touch an Intel processor=P

However, to be fully honest, I've very rarely ever seen you in the AMD forums, pre-Conroe, praising AMD for anything. It could just be cause I didn't use to spend as much time in them months ago though.

I have no problem with AMD, just their Fans. I buy AMD processors but none of the Fan's BS! A local guys saw my post here about my 3500+ not wanting to overclock. He talked me into uninstalling it so he could defend AMD by showing me what I was doing wrong. He got about 60MHz more than I did. Yup mines a Dud! I just call it as I see or say what the hell I think.

I jumpped Intel for the Chipset of the month BS!
I complained about i975 not supporting Conroe.
I think they should have not launched or then recalled the First PressHOTTS!
They should have pulled an AMD and just launched a 90nm NorthwoodC first.
Hell, just launch a 90 Tualatin while they were at it, it would at least kicked the snot out of the Celerons LOL!
Intel agreed with me and put i865 back into production in Nov-05 many of us thought stopping production was Bogus.
I, yes, just me, thinks Intels should do away with the Extreme Edition as they are.
Intel has a lot of models already, hell launch one with an Integrated Memory Controller and supporting mobos then called them the Extreme Editions.

The reason I don't go to the AMD side of the forums is because I can post 10 things. 9 positives and 1 negative, then get flamed for the 1 negative.

"But see, that's the problem. I honestly don't think you should be biased towards any particular product. I used to be that way, and it always ended up leading to arguements with friends, a feeling like I "had" to prove what I was biased towards was obviously better in all ways, etc. In the end, I realized that being biased just tends to make people not like you, and ultimately it's for naught (though my bias was more console-related). Now, I appreciate what AMD has done for all of us, whether people here admit it or not, and it's made Intel a better company for it.

"

Just as Intel has made AMD a better company and competition is a two-way street. Both companies have done great things one Quarter and then did their best to screw us the next. Intel fans seem to see good and bad, AMD fans just good. X2 and FX prices are too high IMHO! I could not be a Fan of someone who doesn't give a crap about Consumers or their Fans who love and worship them.

"That said, one thing perturbs me. If you vote with your wallet, and you're willing to shell the probable $350 or whatever of the 2.4ghz, 4mb cache Conroe, plus the cost of motherboard, etc., why then weren't you willing to shell out the $300 on a 3800 X2 in Dec., instead of the 3500+. You said you liked your P4 2.6C over anything AMD had until the X2s shipped (which thus means you like your P4 over your 3500+, I might point out), and yet, when a obviously superior product came out, you didn't buy it when you upgraded to an AMD system. Seems like a quagmire to me. ::confused look::

Because look at how much work the $319 Conroe will do as Compared to the $331 3800+ (at the time of my Purchase) will get done? You're kidding right? I liked my P4 2.6C exactly as you said. Even now as I compare my 3500+ that cost the exact same amount, all I can say is thank god for Games! I don't waste much time running benchmarks other than checking my set up. I bought my AMD system for Games and it does that very well. Right now I can afford more than one PC and like running the software than runs best on either system. My Multimedia Stuff is on my 2.6C and it runs FASTER than on my 3500+.

"I agree, AMD's core-naming system is rather screwed up. From what I've read and heard others say, K8L isn't just a slight tacking-on of some basic technologies, similar to how the naming of K9 and K10 were. It does remain to be seen, but supposedly it's going to be a rather nice core modification. As you pointed out though, there are no demos, so all we have at the moment is hearsay.

There is one aspect though of the Conroe/Merom/Woodcrest architecture however that does concern me, and that is how it'll scare. The FSB is honestly the weak-link in the architecture. Now Intel has optimized it, and there will almost certainly be no issue with dual-core. But what about when we move to quad-core, and beyond? My fear may be for nothing, but the fact that supposedly Intel has ES of Kentsfield, and yet noone has seen its performance, almost makes me wonder if Intel knows it has a problem, and doesn't yet have a proper solution.

Either way, I generally espect you a lot Donnie, so don't take any of it personally.

3GHz Woodcrest on a 1333MHz FSB was demoed, OK? Its not until they go past 8 processor that the new ones will start to bottleneck! They're are fully NUMA multi FSB and Northbridges as well. No dewd, I don't take any of this personally. I like tech and like learning stuff from folks here. I had some dooseys with folks I respect as well, ask eclipse and robberbarron, I respect the hell out of them, even when they're pullin' my chain! Just because you disagree means nothing personally to me.

While you're bad mouthing Yonah/Core Duo try out this review?

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1948271,00.asp

Yonah shouldn't have won any of this tests! Not a one.

Oh and please make shorter posts next time?

 

[PGHammer]

PhotoShop was a fine example where G4/G5 flexed their muscles though, and x86 has only recently caught up, partly because IBM/Motorola just gave up on PowerPC).
A Conroe is just a drop-in replacement for current x86 processors. Entirely different story. You'll be running the exact same SPEC-based software, and the exact same OS and applications on all of them, so you do get a 1:1 comparison.

Conroe *would* normally be a drop-in replacement if VRM changes didn't require a redesign of non-socket supporting hardware (because the socket didn't change). In the case of Photoshop, the pendulum *did* swing slightly in favor of x86 when it was the G3 vs. Northwood-C; however, the G4 (and later G5) had Altivec (which had no equivalent in x86) which Photoshop for Mac took full advantage of; later optimizations in Photoshop for Windows for SSE3 and 3DNow were only able to close the gap somewhat. With Altivec basically dead because Apple itself went x86, the two flavors of Photoshop are now basically even, except the Mac developers are now faced with what the *Windows* developers have already dealt with (having a second processor core readily available). The first unibin version of Photoshop for Mac compared to the last non-unibin version of Photoshop for Mac will make for an interesting bench face-off.

 

[Donnie27]

I agree, 130 isn't exactly a trivial amount either. I was more just bringing up though that for someone who supposedly isn't impressed by anything of AMD's except the X2s, to then forego an X2 and get a 3500+ single-core (granted, it is much cheaper as you pointed out, but upgrading eventually to the Conroe 2.4ghz / 4mb Cache as you pointed out is going to cost roughly the same as the 3800+ X2 did in Dec.) just seems strange to me. That's all.

That 2.4Ghz, 4mb cache Conroe sure does look appealing already though.

I'll get the X2 when Conroe comes out, crushes it, AMD then drastically cuts the prices, then I'll upgrade it. I still don't think 3800+ is worth $250 let alone $330.

 

[Donnie27]

Why did he get a 3500+ when 144/146 Opterons were cheaper or the same price? Kinda the equivalent of getting a 2.8P4-B when the 2.4P4-C's were out (though I have no idea if the price analogy works haha).

When I bought mine, the Opteron overclocking craze had just hit and many of the Opterons were hard to find. They'll be easier to find as some of my Buds dump theirs.

 

[Emission]

^ Looking at the performance charts, im not sure why you would ever buy AMD again . Just my take on it.

 

[Donnie27]

It's because he hasn't praised AMD at all. Do a search on his posts...and you're gonna see that most of them a pro-Intel, pro-Conroe. I searched in "AMD Processors" and nearly all of them are concerning AM2 vs. 9xx, again pro-Intel. I hope someone can prove me wrong, but from those results alone (and the impression I get from this thread), Donnie has always been pro-Intel.

Then bring them on? I gave links and showed where AMD was Faster and showed links where they were not. I don't have many posts about AM2 vs 9xx, find a link? My biggest gripe is that X2 cost too phucking much, I didn't say they were slower and even said the newer Presler only closed the gap!

I just got through saying "While AMD was kicking Intel ass with X2, their prices reflected that", "they're poud of their X2 and the prices show that". I'm very pro Conroe and I'll make no bones about that=P Pro Intel, I don't think so. I bought a 3500+ because it was $208 the time to by Opterons had passed then. Around most of you guys, almost anyone is pro Intel so I see your point.

 

[Donnie27]

^ Looking at the performance charts, im not sure why you would ever buy AMD again . Just my take on it.

QTF!

 

[Bao01]

Regarding Anandtech's Yonah preview:

The Core Duo ran 4-4-4 DDR2-533 while the X2s ran 2-2-2 DDR. If you look at the comparison table for AM2 DDR2 vs 939 DDR, 3-3-3 DDR2-667 offers about the same performance as 2-2-2 DDR400.
The memory used in the Yonah benchmarks is probably more equivalent to 3-3-3 DDR2-400 on this same table. The difference is from 4 to 30%, let's say 5 or 10% - Yonah over X2 with equivalent RAM and the assumption that Yonah behaves similarly to X2 w/rt latency. Of course, we didn't have this comparison table when the Yonah preview came out. But, it wasn't impossible to infer something to that effect. And again, this pertains to certain games. We knew Conroe was going to have twice the cache of Yonah and feature 4-issue wide execution and we did have Intel's claims of performace + performance/watt from . So, some of us did come to slightly different conclusions than Anand Lal Shimpi.
If you read reviews for reviewers' opinions, fine. From time to time, I find them amusing, too. But, if you debate using their opinions, you run the risk of having misunderstood what they said and also accepting any fallacious conclusions they may have drawn from the data and available information. If you did fall into that trap, then you would not have been alone. But, some did not fall into it with you.

Regarding Conroe vs AM2:

The E6700 was shown to be 20% faster than a 2.8 X2 at Spring IDF. We also have the other Gelsinger benchmarks of Conroe, Merom vs Yonah, and Victor Wang's benchmarks(the Sandra results were all I was looking for) backing these numbers up. This also means that Conroe is 25% faster per clock than X2 as demoed at Spring IDF. But, wait. Recall that Conroe was running DDR2-667 @ 5-5-5-15. That's pretty sad stuff. Applying the same logic as above, we can conclude that Conroe will be 30-35% faster per clock than AM2 X2s when running equivalent memory.

Regarding Conroe speeds:

The Woodcrest 3.0 1333fsb model will be priced below desktop XE chips. It will also have a lower TDP of 80w vs 95w. Right now, it's a good bet the top Conroe XE model will be doing 3.33 GHz this year.

Regarding K8L:

When AMD says it's "evolutionary", remember that the evolution talked about in both camps is multicore-scaling, the race to multi-core, multicore is the name of the game, etc. K8L is just a code-name for the quad-core implementation of the basic K8 architecture, just as X2 was a dual-core of the same.
Don't expect 4-issue, Z-Ram, blah blah. These are just wild rumors. Expect AMD to put the same kind of effort and get the same kind of results into quad core as with dual core. Expectig major architectural changes would be expecting too much based on what AMD has been able to do from the first opterons to AM2. Anyway, K8L won't be competing with Conroe. That's what 65nm AM2 will be doing and it will not be doing it well unless it can hit 4 GHz effortlessly....early next year when the market will be saturated with Conroe parts.


There's alot more to be said. I'm still wondering why anyone would expect Donnie to have been saying positive things for AMD back when no one had anything bad to say against X2's except that they were costing an arm and leg. Why would there be any need to add another voice to the cheerleading choir, the horde of penile fencers, or the fanatical mob, when they lacked any kind of opposition???