Conroe debunked

[Donnie27]

as gilmour said, the cpu is relatively blind to the ram type, as long as it can get the data it needs. DDR2 has very similar overall latencies to DDR1 (actually a bit faster), and gobs more bandwidth.
the only way you can really "optimize" for that is make a core that is very dependant on the memory subsystem to feed it with data. guess what netburst was

Not exactly. As any P4 overclocker will tell you though, you could get less bandwidth out of 1:1 250 and still out do 4:5 200:450 that showed more bandwidth.

As for AMD?

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2741&p=4

Since most of you guys trust them, I don't, read this if you haven't already? It was the AMD folks on the Intel side of the forum talking about wait for DDR2-800 improvements. Looks good on Sandra but not much else when it comes to real world apps and games.

 

[chrisf6969]

...... Also, how 'bout you let a product get released first before you declare yourself an expert on it. That applies to both AM2 and Conroe. And... I'm sticking with AMD.

You're not waiting for a product to be released? You've already decided to stick with AMD.

What I love is how Conroe is farther out from release than AM2, yet you've declared AM2 dead in the water and Conroe champ. As many have said, AM2 isn't a new core or architecture. It's more of a way of keeping people from plugging chips that only support DDR into boards meant for DDR2. And if AMD's done anything right, it's been the onboard memory controller. I don't remember people complaining about the very first onboard DDR controller, so why should the new DDR2 version be any different?

Anandtech as well as several others who have had their hands on both systems have said Conroe will clearly beat AM2. In fact, Anandtech, has had several revisions of the AM2 system as they've seen it improve from being slower than socket939, to basically on par with it.

 

[duby229]

Anandtech as well as several others who have had their hands on both systems have said Conroe will clearly beat AM2. In fact, Anandtech, has had several revisions of the AM2 system as they've seen it improve from being slower than socket939, to basically on par with it.

Which is much better then the 775 transition was.

This is a socket change to support new memory. It was never supposed to be anything more. Intel may well take this round, and good for them too. It is about time. But In the long run AMD's decision to gradually transition to DDR2 will serve them well.

Intel has done a fine job with Conroe and they deserve alot of credit.

 

[GilmourD]

You're not waiting for a product to be released? You've already decided to stick with AMD.

That's because I already have a 939 socket processor and just bought memory for it and won't be upgrading for a while. I should've qualified that better.

Anandtech as well as several others who have had their hands on both systems have said Conroe will clearly beat AM2. In fact, Anandtech, has had several revisions of the AM2 system as they've seen it improve from being slower than socket939, to basically on par with it.

How many times have we seen pre-release stuff outdo everything and then not work? Or be specially tweaked engineering samples.

There's a reason I'm a devout [H]er. The reviews are no-bullshit reviews of real products, not specially prepared marketing FUD dispensers. And Anandtech has been questioned as of late...

Chris Hurley... If you're reading this...When both of them are out, will there be an apples-to-apples comparison?

 

[Donnie27]

Apparently I'm a "brainwashed AMD fan", simply because I enjoy the ability of the X2 and was willing to pay, what was to me, a very acceptable $300 on a processor that, when I bought it (late August of 2005) couldn't be beat for its price to performance ratio. Don't yell at early-adopters because there's Intel offerings now that, in terms of price, beats it, but that didn't exist when the 3800+ was released.

I said "I", "ME" and nothing else when I said "I thought X2 3800+" wasn't worth $329. I even said "more power" to those who thought otherwise. Are you selectively reading stuff?
What was your (late August of 2005) Price? Before you answer, my bud bought his from Newegg for $358 shipped, another paid $375 earlier. I also thought 3500+ going for $295 to $315 was way the hell overpriced. I waited for E, then the Price cuts before I bought.

Infact, noone ever seemed to see you on the AMD forum, *ever*, commenting about a "job well done", "way to go AMD", "those results are impressive", etc. Why? Because you're an Intel !!!!!!. Just admit it. Nothing wrong with it, I guess.

There are thousands of AMD Worshippers already doing that LOL! I also wanted to avoid being banned for starting flames for saying something like, X2 cost too phucking much. Or could you see the reaction to "AM2 is a Joke"? Folks here didn't get pissed when I posted that it sucked Intel didn't get Conroe support on i975x when Conroe is actually older than i975x. Are my constant be-yotching about not truely supporting Pentium M on the desktop.

I don't see you whining about the cost of any of Intel's higher-priced offerings. It's only anti-AMD this, anti-AMD that. Hence why people think you're completely Intel-biased.

I will fully concur, that at this point in time, the X2 isn't a truly affordable dual-core to invest in. Stock for stock, it's a better performing than generally any of the Intel offerings at stock speeds beneath it, but I guess you have to be willing to pay for that performance.

Then you missed the part where I said Intel should Kill the Extremely Expensive-Extreme Edition uh? I even said maybe they should sell an Integrated controller version and platform call it the EE, sheesh! See above again?

Why is it that people will pay $400 extra for an FX-60, when it's practically identical to the 4800+ X2? Because they choose too.

I call them poor or NOT smart shoppers!

However, at the time, when the 3800+ debuted, the dual-core offerings from both Intel and AMD were more expensive, and the 3800+ was a relative god-sense due to the price vs. performance that it allowed. Now, 9 months later, I'd hope that we'd have many more affordable dual cores out. That's only common sense.

That's why I didn't buy either, why you keep acting like I bought Intel?

So basically, even though when it debuted, the 3800+ was clearly a perfect choice to buy, given the performance it allowed, the multitasking, and yet you were too cheap to buy it. That, or you simply keep having to justify to yourself reasons for why AMD apparently "sucks". That's the only way I see it. You can talk about the huge performance difference Conroe may provide once it launches, and how that all-of-a-sudden makes it a great purchase. The fact of the matter is, when the 3800+ X2 debuted, it was easily able to outpace processors from Intel that were a lot more expensive than it was, as well as keeping up with the 4200+ which, at the time, I believe was almost $150 more. So back in September, to me and all the others who invested in one, it looked like a steal. And it was.

A perfect choice for you is not a perfect choice for me. There you go again trying to make your opinion fact. I didn't say AMD sucked, I said their prices SUCKED, big difference. I already had good Multitasking performance before X2 and Pentium-D shipped. Though not as fast as either, Hyperthreading worked for me LOL! It costed me nothing. Nothing vs. $165 mobo and $329, let's see, NAWWWWeee no thanks.

Oh, and I might just add: your dislike of AMD fans is truly immature, and reflect as well just how Intel-biased you truly are, as you look at every oppurtunity to bash AMD itself or its fans. There are radical, rabid AMD fans just like there are radical, rabid Intel fans *cough*. I'm an AMD fan, but I won't let that stop me from buying Conroe, because the success of Conroe will drive AMD to make a more powerful product, and in the end, everyone benefits.

I don't like fans and it is they who are immature LOL! The only folks cheering for either company should be stockholders and employees. Intel nor AMD gives me anything, I pay them so they are no different than Mobile, Coke, Honda or Chevy or any Phucking body else.

Note I said didn't like, not Hate or etc.. I've patted AMD and Intel on the Back when they've done good and trashed them when they didn't that's why I can't be a fan of either. Fans don't want to see anything NEGATIVE about their beloved company. Example, if you buy any Intel processor, you're NOT the kind of Fan I'm talking about=P I have buddies who are F-A-N-S I like them but will tell their views on this sucks. They have T-Shirts that say "AMDdroid" and bumpper stickers that say "Intel Inside, Idiots Outside". Two of these guys won Intel Northwood Cs and sold them at a loss to buy AthlonXPs, those are Fans!

So, you can't make me into something I'm NOT! If AM2 was a kickass Product and not priced like X2 when it ships, I would be singing the hell out of its praises=P I buy both as they fit my likes or dislikes. If I had to choose, I'd be an Intel F-A-N over an AMD one any day of the week=P Most of the few Intel posters here don't just blindly follow Intel like AMD Folks who accept anything AMD does as good.

 

[Donnie27]

Sorry folks but I gotta say this.

There is absolutely no reason why Intel couldn't adopt a better bus design and still keep the memory controller on the chipset.

Hell with a few minor tweaks even PCI-e could be revamped and used as a p2p bus, that would blow GTL+ out of the water. Lower the latency and crank the clock, and ding we have a winner.

Yep, I remember us talking about DMI as Intel uses it already. It is Full Duplex and Point to Point.

 

[Donnie27]

You look at it from a value standpoint. I totally agree.

Same price, more than 50% the performance difference.

You got it! It was nothing more than buying a product. Didn't give a damned who made it as long as it worked.

I understand your decision to get an A64. I got a Venice for my sister some time before I went with the Opterons. I liked how the AMD chips ran cooler. I didn't game much and don't game anymore, so mine wasn't really meant to be a gaming rig. I just figured that if I could clock my AMD chips high enough, I could do without hyperthreading. Last time, I spent almost 300 bucks on an opteron. I'm afraid I'm not shelling out 300 bucks for another chip anytime soon.

By this time next year, God willing, I want to have a Conroe and to have upgraded the 3500+ to an Opteron or X2 by then. I do game but finding less time to do so as my little girl gets older and more of my time is spent on her.

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

Intel moved to DDR2 and built it processors with that RAM in mind=P Saying the RAM doesn't matter on Conroe is a a little Crazy.

go read my post again, and stop saying crap like that

 

[sparks]

to the AMD fans that are posting in the conroe section..(I AM NOT EITHER WAY)
I was trying to buy an opty in Dec....but they price raped me out of it. Then I said well they
have the AM2 coming out in april and it should do what ....maybe 20% better than opty with ddr2....I can wait ...hope its priced better....then conroe..

OK I have 2 choices I can buy an AM2 same performance as the older ddr1 version.
or I can buy a conroe....lets see AMD $300 more for less performance....what a deal

DUH

now if they want to get the new amd chip less than the conroe I will buy one...but not at these prices

sparks

 

[$BangforThe$]

Donnie settle down you got hooked by a troller. I have read every post in the intel forums over the last 6 months. Your quotes were taken out of context. If the entire post would have been quoted that would have been clearly seen. Relax

There seems to be many here that are on the grade school debate team. Just remember their children!

I would have to say that Conroe was designed for DDR2 was poor wording . I understood what Donnie ment he just said it poorly.

As for Conroe not needing a 1333 FSB I don,t think any of us can say thats true or not . But Intel wouldn't do this on the XE cpu if their is no benefits for this . I can see the Bus speed of 333 being very benefitual. Keep in mind Intel is going DDR3 in 07 and both SIS and ATI have chipsets their working on releasing this year that work with DDR3 for intel cpu's.

I also beleave that @ 1066FSB and a 266bus speed running @ 1:1 will be faster than 533 running @ 2:1 . Corsair is or has released 1066 memory that runs @ 5-5-5-12. Buy the time Conroe arrives Corsair may even have DDR2 667@ 2-2-2-8 timings . How much this helps Intel remains to be seen. AMD however will benefit from those faster timings.

Also one of the guys slamming on Donnie an AMD fan said that AMD turion was a bad CPU . I looked at The benchies . True its not as fast as Yonah or merom that does not make it a bad CPU . I think its a rather nice CPU in fact, but thats me.

I think everyone should keep in mind That Conroe being 30% faster Clock for Clock than X2 is a remarkable achievement by Intel . Its right inline with what I expected. If Conroe XE comes out @ 3.33 this year its even more than I expected.

As for AMD it will come back with something. I don't believe it will be anytime soon . As they scraped their old K10 plans. So it will be awhile before we see anything. I really don't think Intel will ever make a Pressie type Mistake again . So intel will more than likely be the Daddy of cpu's until IBM gets Cell working in a manner that does not require code written for each processor. In 3 months Intel will take back the Crown and more than likely keep it for some time to come.

 

[Donnie27]

go read my post again, and stop saying crap like that

10-4 good buddy, didn't mean anything bad though

 

[Donnie27]

to the AMD fans that are posting in the conroe section..(I AM NOT EITHER WAY)
I was trying to buy an opty in Dec....but they price raped me out of it. Then I said well they
have the AM2 coming out in april and it should do what ....maybe 20% better than opty with ddr2....I can wait ...hope its priced better....then conroe..

OK I have 2 choices I can buy an AM2 same performance as the older ddr1 version.
or I can buy a conroe....lets see AMD $300 more for less performance....what a deal

DUH

now if they want to get the new amd chip less than the conroe I will buy one...but not at these prices

sparks

Yup and you know first hand I wanted an Opty and watched the price jump $175 just before I was ready to order LOL!

I'm sure of lot of them are pissed that I posted the NEW AMD price list.

 

[Donnie27]

Donnie settle down you got hooked by a troller. I have read every post in the intel forums over the last 6 months. Your quotes were taken out of context. If the entire post would have been quoted that would have been clearly seen. Relax

OK!

 

[$BangforThe$]

Which is much better then the 775 transition was.

This is a socket change to support new memory. It was never supposed to be anything more. Intel may well take this round, and good for them too. It is about time. But In the long run AMD's decision to gradually transition to DDR2 will serve them well.

Intel has done a fine job with Conroe and they deserve alot of credit.

I read those earlier AT reviews of AM2 and I really haven't seen any improvement other than the move to DDR2 800 . AMD did a fine job of timing when they moved to DDR2 . The thing that still is of a little concern is the fact that Intel CPU's (p4) seen benefits @ DDR2 533. Were as AMD needed DDR2 800. Now thats a little bit to be concerned with . As Intel(P4) seems to scale better and I have no reason to believe that Conroe won't do the same with it's longer pipes(than AMD and fatter) and 4 issue core and 128 bit SSE in 1 cycle.With Macro ops fusion Conroe can actually read 5 issues in 1 cycle under many circumstances. I believe Conroe will need the bandwidth.

 

[Donnie27]

That's the same as everybody saying that the Pentium 4 was built for Rambus. Funny... Worked perfectly fine with daul channel DDR. The processor was built with a bandwidth expectation in mind, not a specific technology.

It's what Intel said. Oh wait, we can believe AMD execs but everything Intel's says are lies right?

Well, two things... Nobody ever said it was supposed to be a Socket939 killer, even the fantarts. Also, how 'bout you let a product get released first before you declare yourself an expert on it. That applies to both AM2 and Conroe. And... I'm sticking with AMD. [?QUOTE]

I never said I was an expert and have asked many questions myself LOL! AM2 is being independently tested RIGHT NOW. First DDR2 667 wasn't good enough and you guys said wait for DDR2 800, now DDR2 is here and it well wait for shipping Procs. Question Anand, how about Wes Fink's last review?

Sorry that's bull. AMD demoed Hammers at Winter IDF15 months before they shipped.

Well... It's funny... The FSB for Conroe isn't going to be able to take all the available bandwidth of dual channel DDR2-800... And where are you getting your figures from?

Look at the test results? The processor doesn't have to match the FSB since other parts/systems will be accessing the RAM indendant of the Processor. Common sense. I/O-DMA, PCI-E and or DMI!

That was in jest, and if you don't realize that... I dunno. Granted, everything gets tweaks, Intel or AMD. If you think Conroe's not going to have as many tweaks and errata as the AM2 DDR2 memory controller, you're fooling yourself.

As are you.

What I love is how Conroe is farther out from release than AM2, yet you've declared AM2 dead in the water and Conroe champ. As many have said, AM2 isn't a new core or architecture. It's more of a way of keeping people from plugging chips that only support DDR into boards meant for DDR2. And if AMD's done anything right, it's been the onboard memory controller. I don't remember people complaining about the very first onboard DDR controller, so why should the new DDR2 version be any different?

What I love is how you guys always love AMD even when they cheat on ya'. Anand said AMD promised him a 10% increase, not Donnie27. Anand said it offered little reason to buy. As I said before, Dothan and Yonah already proves the Integrated memory controller moot on INTEL SYSTEMS moot and they're out now.

AM2 is dead in the water as in an upgrade to replaced my Sc-939/3500+/DDR1 and that has nothing to do with Intel at all. There's little to no price or performance incentive for me, note I said me. There will be a lot of incentive to UPGRADE to Conroe. Since I believe the results, I don't need to wait.

Again, read very carefully, please? The Conroe 2.4GHz I'm planning on getting doesn't need or have to beat X2 (AM2 or Sc-939) by 30% clock for clock. Even if it were the same Speed, since it would run cooler, according to Victor Wang the same person the Blogger misrepresents, use less voltage, more cache and cost less, then the AMD counterpart becomes a bad deal any frackin' way.

For the record, this is some of the same comments I made AGAINST the 3.73GHz EE P4.

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

It's what Intel said. Oh wait, we can believe AMD execs but everything Intel's says are lies right?

this is gonna be interesting. i don't see how he implied that. he simply said that the cpu core is relatively blind to the ram. you're taking this way too far and out of context entirely.

What I love is how you guys always love AMD even when they cheat on ya'. Anand said AMD promised him a 10% increase

and we've yet to see what a retail chip can do, so how can you determine with such finality that amd is cheating on us. plus, i never heard about that 10% promise, though i've been a bit out of the loop with cpu's lately cause all this new socket vs new core stuff is honestly pissing me off.

 

[Donnie27]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31096

AMD's AM2 launch moved up

Two weeks for gamesmanship

According to HKEPC, it pulled in the launch to May 23 instead of June 6 because they think Intel will paper launch its next cores on the same day.

So Sparks is right

 

[$BangforThe$]

I like that Donnie doesn't mention the fact that the memory cartel conspired against Rambus. P4 was infact created with the rambus bandwidth in mind. Intel had zero controll over the Asians jacking up the prices of Rambus memory. The fact is it seems to me the Asians cann't be trusted with intellectual properity. China will no doubt demonstrait this in the near future as the tool up to build faster CPU'S . A technoligy they did not develop but stole. Intel fans AMD is not the enemy . Amd fans Intel is not the enemy . The Asians are the enemy . They steal intellectual propriety and market it as their own.

 

[$BangforThe$]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31096



So Sparks is right

Ya I read that at 10 o clock this morning. I didn't pay much att. to it because FUD said this. AMD moved it up because They are afraid Intel will paper launch. Moving the Time frame ahead doesn't stop Intel from moving up their time frame.For a paper launch. Does it? Maybe AMD looked at the date 6/6/06 and said screw that.

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

The Asians are the enemy . They steal intellectual propriety and market it as their own.

micron isn't asian....
also, price fixing isn't stealing IP either..

also, hey! may 23rd is my b-day

 

[Mav451]

I like that Donnie doesn't mention the fact that the memory cartel conspired against Rambus. P4 was infact created with the rambus bandwidth in mind. Intel had zero controll over the Asians jacking up the prices of Rambus memory. The fact is it seems to me the Asians cann't be trusted with intellectual properity. China will no doubt demonstrait this in the near future as the tool up to build faster CPU'S . A technoligy they did not develop but stole. Intel fans AMD is not the enemy . Amd fans Intel is not the enemy . The Asians are the enemy . They steal intellectual propriety and market it as their own.

Wow, talk about opening up a can of worms.

Without "Asians", you don't have nVidia. You don't have Yahoo! You don't have ASUS, Abit, DFI, Leadtek, et al

You can pretty much kiss the PC industry dead without Asians.

Your spelling leaves much to be desired ...are you even American? You sound like a hard-core, right-wing 'America!' kind of guy, yet you don't spell demonstrate or property correctly.

 

[$BangforThe$]

micron isn't asian....

also, hey! may 23rd is my b-day

No micron isn't and I don't know if they were named in the lawsuite. They are however part of the Cartel. Happy early B-day . You going to buy yourself an AM2 socket M/B cpu and DDR2 memory than?

 

[Donnie27]

this is gonna be interesting. i don't see how he implied that. he simply said that the cpu core is relatively blind to the ram. you're taking this way too far and out of context entirely.

and we've yet to see what a retail chip can do, so how can you determine with such finality that amd is cheating on us. plus, i never heard about that 10% promise, though i've been a bit out of the loop with cpu's lately cause all this new socket vs new core stuff is honestly pissing me off.

Hey, maybe you're right on both accounts!

http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2738&p=6

However times are changing, and after a very long hiatus Intel will soon resume increases in FSB frequency, not to mention that their new Core architecture is considerably more data hungry than anything we've seen to date. So on the Intel side of the fence, the greater bandwidth offered by DDR2 will finally have a real use. With Intel DDR2 demand increasing and more manufacturing shifting away from DDR, it now makes sense for AMD to jump on the DDR2 bandwagon as well. If AMD does it early enough, the transition to DDR2 will be complete before any of its products desperately need it, which is always a better route. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------There's also this issue of efficiency; based on our ScienceMark results, AMD was able to build an extremely efficient DDR-400 memory controller into their processors. The Rev E processors are able to deliver over 5GB/s of memory bandwidth, which is extremely close to the 6.4GB/s theoretical maximum offered by a 128-bit DDR-400 memory interface. The Rev F AM2 processors we've tested aren't able to break 7GB/s yet, which albeit an increase of 35% over the best Socket-939 numbers we've seen, still ends up being only 53% of the peak bandwidth offered by a 128-bit DDR2-800 memory controller compared to the almost 80% we saw on the Rev E.

Both cases I agree with Anand.

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

No micron isn't and I don't know if they were named in the lawsuite. They are however part of the Cartel. Happy early B-day . You going to buy yourself an AM2 socket M/B cpu and DDR2 memory than?

thanks man, and hell yeah i'm gonna get an AM2 setup. if anyone is an AMD fan here, it's me
if it makes you feel any better though, i'm also looking into an intel based rig to do comparisons between intel and amd as far as memory overclocking and tweaking goes.. conroe isn't gonna be out in time though, i'm probably gonna order some stuff within the next week, just gotta get some people to buy off my spare ddr and an extra dfi nf4 i've got sitting around

very interesting that anand already knows that the conroe is very data hungry. i don't see any review showing the performance difference with different fsb speeds and memory speeds, but oh well. i'll take their word for it now, and push for benches proving it when it's possible down the road

also, a note about memory efficiency on K8.. it's VERY cpu mhz dependant. running my ram at 250mhz with a 2ghz cpu gives 5709mb/s for a meager 71.4% efficiency.
bumping the cpu speed up to 3ghz while keeping the ram at the same timings and mhz brings the bandwidth up to 7415mb/s.. an impressive 92.7% bandwidth efficiency.
my guess is that anandtech has their hands on a slower clocked AM2, and ddr2's effeciency will really pull through when we get cpu's oc'ed to 3ghz and beyond

 

[$BangforThe$]

Wow, talk about opening up a can of worms.

Without "Asians", you don't have nVidia. You don't have Yahoo! You don't have ASUS, Abit, DFI, Leadtek, et al

You can pretty much kiss the PC industry dead without Asians.

Your spelling leaves much to be desired ...are you even American? You sound like a hard-core, right-wing 'America!' kind of guy, yet you don't spell demonstrate or property correctly.

So I bad speller big deal.

You don't think America can produce the things you listed. I mean crips man it was all invented by american corp. If AMD made chipsets we really wouldn't need them at all.

I understand that Asia needs products to produce . But lets let them do the energizer Bunny . We should have kept the high tech stuff in the good ole USA. We will pay. GM is just about washed up . Americans can build good cars but this labor$$$ really pisses me off. Their is no longer a Gold standard. Its just paper. America should take care of America First. Than the few other countries in the world we can trust.

Why is communist China so differant from USSR ? A commie is a commie. Yet America undertook the job of destroying USSR economy. Than with China were helping to build it . It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[GilmourD]

thanks man, and hell yeah i'm gonna get an AM2 setup. if anyone is an AMD fan here, it's me
if it makes you feel any better though, i'm also looking into an intel based rig to do comparisons between intel and amd as far as memory overclocking and tweaking goes.. conroe isn't gonna be out in time though, i'm probably gonna order some stuff within the next week, just gotta get some people to buy off my spare ddr and an extra dfi nf4 i've got sitting around

very interesting that anand already knows that the conroe is very data hungry. i don't see any review showing the performance difference with different fsb speeds and memory speeds, but oh well. i'll take their word for it now, and push for benches proving it when it's possible down the road

also, a note about memory efficiency on K8.. it's VERY cpu mhz dependant. running my ram at 250mhz with a 2ghz cpu gives 5709mb/s for a meager 71.4% efficiency.
bumping the cpu speed up to 3ghz while keeping the ram at the same timings and mhz brings the bandwidth up to 7415mb/s.. an impressive 92.7% bandwidth efficiency.
my guess is that anandtech has their hands on a slower clocked AM2, and ddr2's effeciency will really pull through when we get cpu's oc'ed to 3ghz and beyond

Waiting for charts and graphs... :-P

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

Waiting for charts and graphs... :-P

wait for me to get my multivariable homework done first
need to get cracking on finding a summer job too

 

[Mav451]

Why is communist China so differant from USSR ? A commie is a commie. Yet America undertook the job of destroying USSR economy. Than with China were helping to build it . It just doesn't make any sense.

Well the US has never been very good at international relations, lol. History majors should know this especially.

 

[$BangforThe$]

thanks man, and hell yeah i'm gonna get an AM2 setup. if anyone is an AMD fan here, it's me
if it makes you feel any better though, i'm also looking into an intel based rig to do comparisons between intel and amd as far as memory overclocking and tweaking goes.. conroe isn't gonna be out in time though, i'm probably gonna order some stuff within the next week, just gotta get some people to buy off my spare ddr and an extra dfi nf4 i've got sitting around

very interesting that anand already knows that the conroe is very data hungry. i don't see any review showing the performance difference with different fsb speeds and memory speeds, but oh well. i'll take their word for it now, and push for benches proving it when it's possible down the road

also, a note about memory efficiency on K8.. it's VERY cpu mhz dependant. running my ram at 250mhz with a 2ghz cpu gives 5709mb/s for a meager 71.4% efficiency.
bumping the cpu speed up to 3ghz while keeping the ram at the same timings and mhz brings the bandwidth up to 7415mb/s.. an impressive 92.7% bandwidth efficiency.
my guess is that anandtech has their hands on a slower clocked AM2, and ddr2's effeciency will really pull through when we get cpu's oc'ed to 3ghz and beyond

I agree 100% the thing is Intel will scale up also and the only true differance is latency between the contollers. Hypertransport is another issue and pretty sure intel is working on that issue. Now when we get to 4 core cpu's I can see the need for more bandwidth. But intel will be using DDr3 in 07 so its really going to be interesting. But the truth is for now. Latency advantage on AM2 is not the big deal it was at DDR1. Its going to be interesting thats for sure.

 

[robberbaron]

So I bad speller big deal.

You don't think America can produce the things you listed. I mean crips man it was all invented by american corp. If AMD made chipsets we really wouldn't need them at all.

I understand that Asia needs products to produce . But lets let them do the energizer Bunny . We should have kept the high tech stuff in the good ole USA. We will pay. GM is just about washed up . Americans can build good cars but this labor$$$ really pisses me off. Their is no longer a Gold standard. Its just paper. America should take care of America First. Than the few other countries in the world we can trust.

Why is communist China so differant from USSR ? A commie is a commie. Yet America undertook the job of destroying USSR economy. Than with China were helping to build it . It just doesn't make any sense.

Asia has a comparative advantage over the US for electronics. If it were cheaper for companies to produce them in the US, they would. Labor is too expensive in the US for manufacturing consumer electronics like this.
America is taking care of itself by trading with Taiwan and Hong Kong. We're at full employment right now (4.7% unemployment rate), so I really don't see the big deal.

 

[DejaWiz]

need to get cracking on finding a summer job too

You can always check this out, 'clipse!

 

[Donnie27]

I like that Donnie doesn't mention the fact that the memory cartel conspired against Rambus. P4 was infact created with the rambus bandwidth in mind. Intel had zero controll over the Asians jacking up the prices of Rambus memory. The fact is it seems to me the Asians cann't be trusted with intellectual properity. China will no doubt demonstrait this in the near future as the tool up to build faster CPU'S . A technoligy they did not develop but stole. Intel fans AMD is not the enemy . Amd fans Intel is not the enemy . The Asians are the enemy . They steal intellectual propriety and market it as their own.

The Cartel was the Big 5 and later the Big 7 of which RAMBUS wasn't a part. The real crooks were Micron and Infineon, proven in Court BTW. It can be said that many of the Asians went a long with RAMBUS almost right from the sart. Samsung even acted as an Intel and RAMBUS's personal memory maker. Yes, P4 was built with RAMBUS in mind just as Conroe was meant for DDR2 right from the start as well. Old Commport and Extreme forums are littered with me Defending RAMBUS 5 years ago LOL!

Once more, all Micron had to do was Hide behind AMD and most Forum goers became Anti-RAMBUS or suckered=P Copy rights and DRM means little in not only Asia but parts of the old East Block like Russia as well. A bud showed me 60 bootlegged WinXP Desks that even had botched marketings saying they were Dell OEM, hehehe!

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

i'll look into it deja
and donnie, i'm not sure if that last bit is entirely accurate, but 5 years ago i didn't really give a damn about computers

I agree 100% the thing is Intel will scale up also and the only true differance is latency between the contollers.

yeah, latency is probably the biggest factor. conroe has a lot of cache to kinda negate this though

Hypertransport is another issue and pretty sure intel is working on that issue. Now when we get to 4 core cpu's I can see the need for more bandwidth.

hypertransport itself is kinda useless. intel can get chip-chip communications working while still using the traditional FSB, though it'll definitly require a new chipset.

But intel will be using DDr3 in 07 so its really going to be interesting.

maybe.. if they are, it's gonna be late '07. i'm honestly not sure if we're gonna see ddr3 that fast. however, from what i can tell about ddr3, it doesn't seem like latency will be any better. just another clock speed bump.

 

[$BangforThe$]

Asia has a comparative advantage over the US for electronics. If it were cheaper for companies to produce them in the US, they would. Labor is too expensive in the US for manufacturing consumer electronics like this.
America is taking care of itself by trading with Taiwan and Hong Kong. We're at full employment right now (4.7% unemployment rate), so I really don't see the big deal.

Were at full employment now . Yes but the differance is pay as percieved by breaking your brain with work or breaking your back with work is way to vast. Because your qualified to be a doctor doesn't mean your entitled to make 10x$$$$ as a home builder or any laborer . The diffearance between white and blue collar workers is disproportionate to were it should be. US government employee's wages are outrageious to the same job classification as it is in the private sector. Ya it great we have 100 million people making less than $50,000 a year closer to $30,ooo a year. and 25 million people making over $150,000+ a year.

This differance in wages is based manly on taught perception by the Acadimic establishment. Not based on need but soley on bias. I did 4 years of collage so I deserve 5x the $$$$. BS. Let all garbage men go on strike. and keep the scabs from crossing the picket lines. Than see what happens. It won't belong and unions will work again because people will become smart enough to relize you don't cross a picket line.

 

[Donnie27]

very interesting that anand already knows that the conroe is very data hungry. i don't see any review showing the performance difference with different fsb speeds and memory speeds, but oh well. i'll take their word for it now, and push for benches proving it when it's possible down the road

also, a note about memory efficiency on K8.. it's VERY cpu mhz dependant. running my ram at 250mhz with a 2ghz cpu gives 5709mb/s for a meager 71.4% efficiency.
bumping the cpu speed up to 3ghz while keeping the ram at the same timings and mhz brings the bandwidth up to 7415mb/s.. an impressive 92.7% bandwidth efficiency.
my guess is that anandtech has their hands on a slower clocked AM2, and ddr2's effeciency will really pull through when we get cpu's oc'ed to 3ghz and beyond

Anand and at least one other mentioned this as well. I might screw up but I try to back up what I say most of the time. Efficient or not, I tweaked mine on my old 2.6C at 3.32GHz to 5885 using 5:4 out of a possible 6.4GB. Yet, at 1:1 that went down to 5410. The 5410 was about 8% faster in some games and 12% faster in others That same old story about Async vs Sync and Sync winning out.

I actually agree with one thing the other guy said. I agree that AMD's moving to AM2/DDR2 looks much smoother/better than Intel going from 478 to 775. I'm BIASed though I never really like Prescott.

 

[Donnie27]

You can always check this out, 'clipse!

Hehehe! Maybe they can re-hire some of those laid off?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/11/08/BU1910.DTL&type=tech

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

I'm BIASed though I never really like Prescott.

i'd extend that to netburst and you have me

 

[DejaWiz]

Hehehe! Maybe they can re-hire some of those laid off?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/11/08/BU1910.DTL&type=tech

Yeah, rehire those that were laid off might be good. Give jobs back to those that were kicked in the kiester!

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/may1998/sil-m9.shtml

 

[Eva_Unit_0]

i'd extend that to netburst and you have me

Oh please...I hate it when everyone bashes netburst becuase here, at the end of its life, it has a hard time competing. Did everyone really forget that it's been around since november of 2000? Or that all the way up until 2004 when prescott and the Athlon 64 came around it was undisputed king of the hill? Or that it ran all the way from 1.3ghz to 3.8ghz, all on the same architecture, and can hit over 5ghz with good cooling?

For the majority of netburst's life (with northwood) it was the best cpu out there...yes, the XP's were great little chips (and I ran mostly XP's, not northwoods for cost reasons) but P4's were faster in pretty much everything. Go dig up some old XP vs. P4 articles and take a look for yourself.

Is netburst in need of replacement? Yes. Was it a bad architecture? No, of course not!

 

[Poncho]

Oh please...I hate it when everyone bashes netburst becuase here, at the end of its life, it has a hard time competing. Did everyone really forget that it's been around since november of 2000? Or that all the way up until 2004 when prescott and the Athlon 64 came around it was undisputed king of the hill? Or that it ran all the way from 1.3ghz to 3.8ghz, all on the same architecture, and can hit over 5ghz with good cooling?

For the majority of netburst's life (with northwood) it was the best cpu out there...yes, the XP's were great little chips (and I ran mostly XP's, not northwoods for cost reasons) but P4's were faster in pretty much everything. Go dig up some old XP vs. P4 articles and take a look for yourself.

Is netburst in need of replacement? Yes. Was it a bad architecture? No, of course not!

well fucking said.