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illgiveumorality

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I have two pairs of insignias mated with my pair of 1980's floor standing Pioneer speakers, and I'm wanting to pick up those X-LS bookshelf speakers later this year. I've obviously had experience with bookshelves, but due to their size they naturally cannot produce the quantity of bass as 12" woofers. My question is: Can a sub accurately fill in where a bookshelf speaker lacks, or would I still be losing some of the spectrum?
 
illgiveumorality said:
I have two pairs of insignias mated with my pair of 1980's floor standing Pioneer speakers, and I'm wanting to pick up those X-LS bookshelf speakers later this year. I've obviously had experience with bookshelves, but due to their size they naturally cannot produce the quantity of bass as 12" woofers. My question is: Can a sub accurately fill in where a bookshelf speaker lacks, or would I still be losing some of the spectrum?
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The position of the speakers and the area/enclosures around or near the speakers and how solidly they are mounted will affect the lower frequency response.

A good sub is an excellent way to gain the deepest bass which you ordinarily wont get from bigger speakers and if the sub is tunable you should be able to match it to your current speakers without much trouble.

I use a REL Strata II Sub which can now be picked up quite cheaply now second hand and its goddam awesome!
Frequency response goes down to 22Hz @ -3dB and its very tunable, very deep bass but well controlled.

Positioning of the sub is also crucial.
come back here if you need assistance with it :)
 
Whether a subwoofer will be sufficient depends a lot on your room. You want the subwoofer near the speakers. Having bookshelf speakers in front of you on one side of the room and the sub behind you on the other won't cut it. Also, it becomes easy to "outsub" bookshelf speakers, meaning that they might not be able to keep up with a large sub. That said, x-ls are pretty decent and should do fine with a 10-12" sub.
 
dandragonrage said:
Whether a subwoofer will be sufficient depends a lot on your room. You want the subwoofer near the speakers. Having bookshelf speakers in front of you on one side of the room and the sub behind you on the other won't cut it. Also, it becomes easy to "outsub" bookshelf speakers, meaning that they might not be able to keep up with a large sub. That said, x-ls are pretty decent and should do fine with a 10-12" sub.
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I agree the room matters a lot and often the furniture can have a strong impact.

Its not always the case that the sub has to be near the speakers.
if the sub has a phase reverse option, then the sub can be placed 1/2 a wavelength further away.
that will centre around a certain frequency as it cant apply to all but you get the idea.
The REL series have a phase reverse.
 
The new setup will wax the old one. Just make sure you have plenty of power and patience. I have a massive NAD 330 watt amp for my two old Boston Acoustic Monitors and they jam by themselves. What I am saying is the bookshelves alone will do really good if properly amped. A sub will kick your butt.
 
People say bass is non-directional, but that's not true to the point where you can't at least tell if it's behind you or in front of you (unless your subwoofer is crossed REALLY low, which it won't be with bookshelves)
 
dandragonrage said:
People say bass is non-directional, but that's not true to the point where you can't at least tell if it's behind you or in front of you (unless your subwoofer is crossed REALLY low, which it won't be with bookshelves)
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I'll go with that but you perceive directional sound from bass much less than higher frequencies so it doesnt matter as much.
My Sub is placed to the right of my whole hifi and I'm very happy with it.
Subs generate the bass by setting up standing waves between itself and furniture/walls so the area where bass is generated is much larger than the sub itself.

There are only 2 locations in my room where I can place the sub and get truly deep extended bass, this can be the overriding factor that determines the best sound quality.
My sofa is in one of them and my sub is in the other.
My room has wooden walls so you may have an easier job of setting up than I had.
 
Nenu said:
I'll go with that but you perceive directional sound from bass much less than higher frequencies so it doesnt matter as much.
My Sub is placed to the right of my whole hifi and I'm very happy with it.
Subs generate the bass by setting up standing waves between itself and furniture/walls so the area where bass is generated is much larger than the sub itself.

There are only 2 locations in my room where I can place the sub and get truly deep extended bass, this can be the overriding factor that determines the best sound quality.
My sofa is in one of them and my sub is in the other.
My room has wooden walls so you may have an easier job of setting up than I had.
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A Rel owner, damn, real HiFi gear. I sold and owned Rel for years and it’s one of the only true subs made today.

As far as placement the variables are many but one of the easiest ways is to use the theory of bass reciprocity and applies to all sub woofer placement.

First, place your sub where you will do your primary listening then put on some music with a decent but not over whelming thump. While the music is playing stand against a room wall with your back against the wall and you facing forward. Now, in slow increments slide down the length of the wall, then across the back of the room do the same thing then come back down the other side and finally the front of the room, all of course as best you can taking furniture and wife factor into consideration.

What you will find as you move are the sweet spots and they are very noticeable. Try this several times to get a feel for the best spot, typically the loudest fullest sounding place. Move your sub to that spot pushing it tight against the wall. Put your music back on and slowly pull the sub away from the wall, say a ¼ of an inch at a time until the sound is louder then softer. Again, do this two or three times to find the sweet spot. Now go back to your favorite seating position and enjoy how much deeper and forceful the bass has become.

This whole idea is to take advantage of the standing wave patterns in your room which are all but impossible to get rid of. Since you can’t kill them, take advantage of them.

The only issue with Rel is, the product is a true sub woofer and as such if you are going to use it with book shelf speakers those book shelf units will need to go below 100 htz or perhaps a bit more because the Rel rolls off pretty far when turned up that high.

I’m thinking the OP might want to look at perhaps a Paradigm or Boston or maybe even a smaller Velodyne unit if he is looking at really small book shelf units.:)
 
BillR said:
A Rel owner, damn, real HiFi gear. I sold and owned Rel for years and it’s one of the only true subs made today.

As far as placement the variables are many but one of the easiest ways is to use the theory of bass reciprocity and applies to all sub woofer placement.

First, place your sub where you will do your primary listening then put on some music with a decent but not over whelming thump. While the music is playing stand against a room wall with your back against the wall and you facing forward. Now, in slow increments slide down the length of the wall, then across the back of the room do the same thing then come back down the other side and finally the front of the room, all of course as best you can taking furniture and wife factor into consideration.

What you will find as you move are the sweet spots and they are very noticeable. Try this several times to get a feel for the best spot, typically the loudest fullest sounding place. Move your sub to that spot pushing it tight against the wall. Put your music back on and slowly pull the sub away from the wall, say a ¼ of an inch at a time until the sound is louder then softer. Again, do this two or three times to find the sweet spot. Now go back to your favorite seating position and enjoy how much deeper and forceful the bass has become.

This whole idea is to take advantage of the standing wave patterns in your room which are all but impossible to get rid of. Since you can’t kill them, take advantage of them.

The only issue with Rel is, the product is a true sub woofer and as such if you are going to use it with book shelf speakers those book shelf units will need to go below 100 htz or perhaps a bit more because the Rel rolls off pretty far when turned up that high.

I’m thinking the OP might want to look at perhaps a Paradigm or Boston or maybe even a smaller Velodyne unit if he is looking at really small book shelf units.:)
Click to expand...

lol, you posted almost exactly what I was going to if he asked for help with placement.
Thats a nice mini guide :)
I would be surprised if the chosen speakers have a rolloff above 100Hz but yes it does need to be checked.
 
Nenu said:
lol, you posted almost exactly what I was going to if he asked for help with placement.
Thats a nice mini guide :)
I would be surprised if the chosen speakers have a rolloff above 100Hz but yes it does need to be checked.
Click to expand...

Lol, Sorry to steal your thunder. I guess I spent way too much time with the people at Sonus faber, Rel, Vienna Acoustics, Paradigm, Boston, Magnapan etc.

It’s amazing how much time can be spent in speaker setup and how great the end results can be.

40 years in the business and you get to go to a lot of schools;)




 
Damn I don't have a single place in my room where I can stand against the wall.

I just put my sub where it would fit and called it done lol. Granted I'm using cheap computer speakers anyways and have to keep the sub off most of the time.

Any other ways to tell where my sub should be placed? I'm not a fan of ported subs, so rather than loud bass I'd rather it be smoother and cleaner.
 
Justintoxicated said:
Damn I don't have a single place in my room where I can stand against the wall.

I just put my sub where it would fit and called it done lol. Granted I'm using cheap computer speakers anyways and have to keep the sub off most of the time.

Any other ways to tell where my sub should be placed? I'm not a fan of ported subs, so rather than loud bass I'd rather it be smoother and cleaner.
Click to expand...

BillRs mini guide spells out how to position your sub as simply as it gets really.

If theres no room to stand at a wall, you wont be able to put your sub or sofa/chair there unless you move your furniture so you might as well move the furniture and get the best from your Sub if possible :)
Once optimally positioned it will be less boomy and will have cleaner/deeper bass.
 
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