Cogage Bolt Through vs Push Pin--Trouble

D

DougWD

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
502
I've finally gotten around to using the True bolt through kit on my Cogage True Spirit.I'm stumped here. I must have something wrong:

P95 Max Heat:
Push Pin 89-91C
Bolt Through 94-96C

Idle is the same in that both are about a 5C increase in temperature.

So WTF!?

I have a nice tight fit on the sink to CPU sink. I can just barely move it with my hand, not using too much pressure. I used Arctic Cooling MX-3 TIM.

The only two things different is that I mounted the fan and sink horizontally, so that the pipes were parallel to the floor. The sink is pointing up tow2ars the top of the case, and the fan is pushing from the bottom. The second is that I mounted a Gentle Typhoon 1850 to the sink instead of the Cogage fan that came with the sink.

BTW I didn't bury the spring screws at all. It's the two screw bar type, not the cross-over type. Should I do that? Just keep alternating until they don't turn anymore?

I'm fucking pissed. Any ideas?
 
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If you were to take the heatsink off does the TIM look evenly spread?
 
Rossi~ said:
If you were to take the heatsink off does the TIM look evenly spread?
Click to expand...

Haven't taken it off. Do you know if I need to bury the bolts or not? I can't even keep it under 40 at idle. vCore 1.120 WTF is going on? I'm starting to think I need to really crank down the retention screws.
 
DougWD said:
BTW I didn't bury the spring screws at all. It's the two screw bar type, not the cross-over type. Should I do that? Just keep alternating until they don't turn anymore?
Click to expand...

In answer to this, yes you should.
You will probably find that there isn't much pressure on the cpu but the heasink it pretty solid on the board.
 
It's not gonna break anything? I noticed when I installed the back-plate that it has a curve to it. Is that normal? It curves away from the board.
 
Just don't over-do it, you should feel if it's too tight. Anything that bends doesn't sound good... hmmm.. It is the correct backplate right?
 
How should I know? I bought it for my LGA 1366 MB and that's what the box says on it. It feel tight now. But the screws are FAR from buried. The back plate is not flat on the back of the motherboard, I can tell you that. It's got a slight convex to it, but is solidly on. Have you ever mounted this type of cooler yourself?

LGA1366 Bolt-Thru-Kit Rev.B
 
Just don't go putting arm strength in tightening it up, should be able to secure fine with just finger movement.
I've mounted TRUE's before, i thought they'd be the same with Cocage and i've not had any problems before, in fact of the 3 i've done I read the instructions on the first and just did the same on the others when i installed them some time after.
Maybe the cocage is different, try googling some reviews, they may explain how they installed it or if there were any problems.
 
OK the screw is really easy to turn. But you're sure you should turn it till it stops?
 
DougWD said:
OK the screw is really easy to turn. But you're sure you should turn it till it stops?
Click to expand...


I did(same heatsink), I just screwed it in until I used up all the thread on each screw. I assumed that's why the screw only had so much thread so it actually prevents you from making it too tight. I thought I was going too tight as well at first but now my temps are good and nothing is broken sicne it's worked for a month now.

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/scge120mmsic2.html
 
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OK #1 , I watercool and have not used a Conage Spirit on any of my customer builds so excuse me if I get something wrong. I am not throwing rocks at you but just trying to help figure out what went wrong.

What bothers me is that if I think you are using this bolt thru kit. You didn't really say other than the 2 screw type so it has to be one of these http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_p...e/product_accessories_btk.html#lga1366boltnew

Socket 1156 Bolt-Thru-Kit Rev.B
LGA1366 Bolt-Thru-Kit Rev.B
LGA775 Bolt-Thru-Kit Rev.2 <--- my best guess as you are just now "getting around to it"

Trouble is that I do not see the Conage Spirit listed for any of those bolt through kits.

And if I go to the Conage site http://www.cogage.com/ they only list an 1156 socket bolt through for Intel cpus. And it is not the two screw type.


So my question is, what made you think the the bolt through kit is the proper one for your heatsink ?

Also be aware your replacement fan does not have the same CFM (lower) rating than the original, likely because despite having a higher RPM the engineering to make it quieter sacrificed some airflow at full speed.


http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/casefans/gt-120-1850
Maximum air flow, CFM ±10% 57.6

http://www.cogage.com/a_page/cpu_cooler/true_spirit/product_cpu_cooler_true_spirit-775.html
Air Flow: 35~66.5CFM


Now that bolt through kit can be made to work, obviously, and I want to say go ahead and crank the screws down, there is a shoulder on the screw that prevents overtightening. But since I cannot be sure that bolt through was specifically engineered for that heatsink, it worries me a little. I will say this, with the stock intel heatsinks it is my experience when installed properly that they do not wiggle a bit even with more than moderate force. That heatsink should be on there like a rock. So consider the fan issue I mentioned, and I cautiously suggest you tighten down on the screws and stop if you hear a crunch. :eek:


I considered your reorientation of the heatsink, but have dismissed it as an issue. Mainly based on other members experiences where orientation does not matter. If one starts thinking about how heatpipes work, even with internal wicking, one comes to the conclusion the computer should be on its side for the heatpipes to work their best and so a up/down vs. side/side orientaion of the heatpipes just gives one a headache trying to figure out what is best for a pure engineering guess. I do favor sideways but have nothing factual to back it up with.

So there ya go, crank down on the screws at least until that heatsink will not move, not even a smidgion with a decent effort at wiggleing it and take into account the minor CFM difference in the fan CFM.

Best I could do without a lot more info and at best an educated guess. You have it in front of you and your good judgment should prevail over anything I said.
 
BillParrish said:
Trouble is that I do not see the Conage Spirit listed for any of those bolt through kits.

And if I go to the Conage site http://www.cogage.com/ they only list an 1156 socket bolt through for Intel cpus. And it is not the two screw type.


So my question is, what made you think the the bolt through kit is the proper one for your heatsink ?

Also be aware your replacement fan does not have the same CFM (lower) rating than the original, likely because despite having a higher RPM the engineering to make it quieter sacrificed some airflow at full speed.


http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/casefans/gt-120-1850
Maximum air flow, CFM ±10% 57.6

http://www.cogage.com/a_page/cpu_cooler/true_spirit/product_cpu_cooler_true_spirit-775.html
Air Flow: 35~66.5CFM
Click to expand...

Here is the bolt thru kit I used and the true spirit is listed as a compatible HSF.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8...-90_IFX-14_Venomous_X_CoGage_True_Spirit.html

As for the fans, the Scythe Gentle Typhoon works much better in high static pressure environments(Going from what a few other [H] members have stated). So it seems it ends up actually moving more air while making less noise(I've not scientifically proven this:p). But I do know that I put the fan provided by Cogage in my case where my Antec allows for a mid case 120mm fan just to move more air before getting tot he CPU and the fan makes more noise now since it's being forced to move more air more quickly. I'm actually going to remove it from my case completely and replace it with another Scythe Gentle Typhoon.
 
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LGA775 Bolt-Thru-Kit Rev.2 <--- my best guess as you are just now "getting around to it"
Click to expand...

Wouldn't that be the completely wrong one?
 
Well the trouble is you are quoting an advertisement, I want to see it from the manufacturer. Ads are frequently incorrect. An email or call to customer support would easily resolve the issue.

With the large number of blades the Typhoon uses it may indeed push air more effectively but I do not see the fin density of that heatsink as being much of a issue and it is thinner overall than most. But without a PQ curve for both fans /shrug and some kind of test (tape a flap of paper hanging down on the backside of the heatsink and measure how far away from the heatsink it "flies" with the two different fans at full speed) who knows? We have a lot of knowledgeable members here but I also see an awful lot of opinions etc and not very much empirical (as in the test I outlined above) data. Since I do not have the items at hand, which I was clear to point out, all I can go by is the manufactures admittedly skimpy data and now regret saying anything about fans.
 
Also be aware your replacement fan does not have the same CFM (lower) rating than the original, likely because despite having a higher RPM the engineering to make it quieter sacrificed some airflow at full speed.


http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/pro...ns/gt-120-1850
Maximum air flow, CFM ±10% 57.6

http://www.cogage.com/a_page/cpu_coo...pirit-775.html
Air Flow: 35~66.5CFM
Click to expand...

I'm sure his fan is fine. The GT1850rpm is significantly more effective than the stock fan. I've confirmed this in case and in an open air environment under stock and OC conditions with an i7 920.

J32P: Would you beable to take some pictures for us of the backplate you say is bending as well as your install? That mounting bracket should work fine with your TRUE Spirit since it has the same base as a TRUE.

The only two things different is that I mounted the fan and sink horizontally, so that the pipes were parallel to the floor.
Click to expand...

What happens when you orient it vertically like you had it before?
 
I went from the push pin to the same bolt through bracket you went to . You don't have to tighten the screws excessively. I got a drop of 2-5 degrees C per core. I talked to the thermalright techs, and they told me that they use a single point (of contact?) technology, and that the HSF doesn't need to be that tight. My question is, why did you mount the HSF horizontally? Aren't you drawing heat off of your graphics card? I think this is your problem, with the current alignment of the HSF you are pushing warmer air through the cooling fins. I agree with Farkle, try exhausting the heat out the back of the case.
 
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With those bolt thru kits with the spring loaded screws, you should continue screwing it down until it stops itself. The board will have a slight bend to it, but it's nothing to worry about, unless you're really paranoid about it, then... don't use the bolt thru kit :p
 
I did think that I was pulling air from the graphics card too, but I have three side vent 120mm fans. One pulls air out right next to the top of the vid cards exhaust, and the other two push in. Plus there are three more 120mm fans, top case, back exhaust, and front.
 
FaRKle0079 said:
J32P: Would you be able to take some pictures for us of the backplate you say is bending as well as your install? That mounting bracket should work fine with your TRUE Spirit since it has the same base as a TRUE.
Click to expand...

But I didn't say that, lol.
 
I have the Cocage TRUE Spirit w/ bolt through kit on an LGA1366 board. It was pretty hard to crank down on the bolts, but that is how it is designed. The springs are supposed to apply the correct amount of load. Can't remember of the backplate had a bow to it or not. But I get very good temps, installed like this:

1ht94h.jpg
 
I'll crank the screws all the way down then and see what I get.

I can't get a picture because my MB tray doesn't have plate access. So I'm have to take the entire board out again.

It's just a very slight concave, like a half pipe curve, curving away from the motherboard. It connected what seemed to be a good fit, although the back plate connectors seemed to be really close to the capacitors surrounding the CPU. I didn't have to force the back plate screws at all. I just crossed tightened them until they were snug.
 
OK I moved the fan from the bottom near the vidcard to the top, so that it blows down towards the side exhaust fan, and past the card.

I then tightened the screws until they stopped. My idle temps are down to 33C, which is about 3C cooler than the pushpin mount, but the CPU P95 heat test are now worse by 2 C than with the push pen mount. At around 75F ambient, top temp was around 88-89C but an increase from 75-82F the temps would blip to 94C, and average around 90-93C.

So, what's up with this? Definitely not getting any better cooling with the Gentle Typhoon like everyone else. I can feel the air really flowing through the fins too. My next step is to remount the Cogage fan and see what I get. I really thought I would see a nice temp drop from using the back-plate mount and the Gentle Typhoon 1850.
 
OK and here we have the solution:

I moved all fans to blow into the case, including the rear fan, while only one Cooler Master 1700RPM fan exhaust air out of the top of the case.

Front fan: in
Exhaust fan back: in
3 door mount fans: all in
CPU fan pushing down towards the video card (This is a horizontal fan install)

Ambient: 70C
Max Heat using P95 Torture Test, Max Heat: 84, mainly around 80-81 after 15 minutes of P95

Vcore 1.344

AWESOME--thanks everyone!
 
I too am having trouble with the cogage retention pins. my thumbs are pretty sore from the pressure i was putting on them trying to get em to lock, still no go. on the first and second and third trys, my temps were up near 80C under prime95.

removed heatsink, TIM was not really spread completely. I used the application method described by the TIM MFG. the locking pins are just completely impossible to lock. this is really irritating. my case has a port on the back of the motherboard tray and i can clearly see that two of the locking pins are not extended all the way. this is on a asus p6x58d premium. if i start pushing any harder, i will start breaking traces in the mobo. this piece of junk is probably going to be returned.

you are not alone apparently.
 
Good cooler and the update version comes with the BT kit.

I'm going to run the heat test again tonight. A few days ago I was hitting 89-90. I think that was due to ambient temps.

I also think a lot of poeple getting high temps with this cooler are not testing at what most sites test at, which is around 22-23C.

I probably tested last around 75F, which boosted the heat up to around 89-90. Still it was worth bolting it.

Another thing to remeber is that even playing a really CPU intensive game, you'll never hit those temps like yuo do while running P95 in heat mode.

Edit:
I ran P95 in heat mode last night ambient temp was 70F and I never broke 84C. When the ambient goes up it really affects CPU temps.
 
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well what concerns me is that core 0 loads 5-10 degrees hotter then the other 3. if the cooler is sitting evenly- they should be somewhat uniform. running folding@home produces temps only 5* under what prime95 does, and since this computer is always folding when not in use- this is a big concern.

origonally i thought that it was just due to high ambient, as the day i finished this computer it was 95* outside, however last night it was 58* F, so it certainly wasnt because of ambient temps.

ive wasted about $8 in thermal paste removing and reinstalling the heatsink to try and get this thing seated and it just will not. pending an email response from cogage (thermaltake) this thing is probably going back.
 
ghost6303 said:
well what concerns me is that core 0 loads 5-10 degrees hotter then the other 3. if the cooler is sitting evenly- they should be somewhat uniform. running folding@home produces temps only 5* under what prime95 does, and since this computer is always folding when not in use- this is a big concern.

origonally i thought that it was just due to high ambient, as the day i finished this computer it was 95* outside, however last night it was 58* F, so it certainly wasnt because of ambient temps.

ive wasted about $8 in thermal paste removing and reinstalling the heatsink to try and get this thing seated and it just will not. pending an email response from cogage (thermaltake) this thing is probably going back.
Click to expand...

Core 0 always runs hotter. It's normal. and no they will not be uniform, as logic would tell you. What is your highest average temp?
 
from running coretemp for 24 hours, with 60-70F ambient temps, temps have gotten up to 86/83/85/79 *C on each core respectively. this is while folding, not prime95. the system is stable, just not temperature stable. this is on an i7 920 @3.8, 1.24375vcore. way too high.
 
ghost6303 said:
from running coretemp for 24 hours, with 60-70F ambient temps, temps have gotten up to 86/83/85/79 *C on each core respectively. this is while folding, not prime95. the system is stable, just not temperature stable. this is on an i7 920 @3.8, 1.24375vcore. way too high.
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That's as stable as it gets with P95. Those are great temps. I think you have your vCore wrong in your sig though. I know the 920 C0 requires 1.34 at load to be stable at 3.8. However, your temps are cool man. You have no problem. I don't get why you are concerned here. Run that phucker.
 
DougWD, I used my old True 1366 bracket to mount the Cogage, and I screwed it down snugly. If I remember I seated the springs by tightening it up a few turns on this corner then a few turns on opposite corner until it was seated all the way. My Delta fan is blowing towards the back fan of my case. You need a high cfm fan for this smaller cooler but it will keep your cpu at safe temps if you can stand the fan noise when needed. My Delta is a 3k rpm fan on a Sunbeam controller, I crank it up when I need to. Go on Youtube to view "How thermal compound spreads" that should help you.
 
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DougWD said:
. Those are great temps
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i still disagree. i just reset the heatsink yet again and FINALLY got it pretty good this time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/ghost6303/i7.jpg

those are the temps i was expecting. this is a D0 chip too btw. and that picture is on 1.3vcore and 3.9ghz. those max temps are over 6 hours of prime95 too. i dont like being only 10-15 degrees away from tjunction. this computer is run 24/7, thats too much heat for me.
 
Those are great temps. Why do you think your temps went down? What were you doing wrong? Are you using a bolt through kit?

BTW you could run the processor 10 years 24-7 at 87C. Intel's MTBF for CPUs (if my memory is accurate) is about 1 million hours. You can do a calculation on how many hours you lose at each gradation of temperature by using the MTBF formula, which is too long to write here.

In other words, running your 920 at 90C 24-7 will result in your power supply burning out before the CPU. Put another way, buy the time your 920 dies from increased heat failure you'll be upgrading the CPU anyway. 1 million hours is 114 years. Burn baby burn!
 
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