CIA Drones Could Lead To A "PlayStation Mentality" About Killing

[TexUs]

Holy cow guys.

We going to argue about P vs. I history here?

What happened happened. Isreal isn't going anywhere.

Also QFT- the soldier that posted that just about everything in warfare nowadays, including the bomb that ended WW2, is just "pushing buttons".
I think we can all agree that robots will never replace humans. What they can do is give us abilities we didn't even have. Heck, the newer drones can actually spot footprints in the sand and follow them back to the source. A human can't do that, but a human can more critically think of taking a life or not. They work in tandem, and do it well.

An example of this: a dozen soldiers die, and it's big news here. You go back to the Roman conquests, the Crusades, heck even the Denmark/Sweden conflict, which is kindof modern (9500 died in one day)... Thousands died in battles every day. Technology has changed that.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Heck, the newer drones can actually spot footprints in the sand and follow them back to the source. A human can't do that, but a human can more critically think of taking a life or not. They work in tandem, and do it well.

Disagree, on CSI I saw someone taste the dirt and he instantly knew 4 people had passed that way, heading north, carrying a body, wearing Air Jordans, had a KFC Double Down each for lunch and didn't properly exfoliate that morning.

 

[Nemesis999]

Disagree, on CSI I saw someone taste the dirt and he instantly knew 4 people had passed that way, heading north, carrying a body, wearing Air Jordans, had a KFC Double Down each for lunch and didn't properly exfoliate that morning.

while(true)
     enchance();

 

[Matrices]

Heck, let me have some Israelis explain the problem to you:

Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion, first PM of Israel

"...the transfer of [Palestinian] Arab population from the area of the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the [Palestinian] Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants."

Yosef Weitz, Israeli architect of ethnic cleansing

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

Moshe Dayan, Israeli general



Do you get it now? Israel was established by robbing from the Palestinians. It's not primarily about who was Jewish or who was Muslim or how many years people have lived anywhere; it is about an historical, blatant injustice that has only been exacerbated by further Israeli occupation and land theft.

 

[Nemesis999]

Do you get it now? Israel was established by robbing from the Palestinians. It's not primarily about who was Jewish or who was Muslim or how many years people have lived anywhere; it is about an historical, blatant injustice that has only been exacerbated by further Israeli occupation and land theft.

Israel has been raided and destroyed and conquered a dozen times over the past 3500 years. So has pretty much every other square inch of land on Earth. What about countries that were conquered 70 years ago? Should they be reverted too? 80? 90? 100? Your choice has nothing to do with fairness, the world isn't fair, there is no country on earth that isn't the result of thousands of years of invasions. Maybe all of Europe should just revert to Roman boundaries.

 

[Matrices]

Another deflection. LOLKeep trying to justify the fact that Jews should be forced out after 62 years, but the Muslmis shouldn't after 2,000. I'm sure in your mind it works out somehow.

Can someone - anyone - translate this into English? What does this even mean? Do you seriously not grasp the fact that Israel was established by dispossessing the Palestinians? Much like the U.S. grew in size by dispossessing the Native Americans.

Who said anything about forcing Jews out? Did Americans abandon the continent when we finally admitted that we had committed an injustice against the natives here? No, we apologized and compensated them.

Israel needs to do the same - offer compensation, go back to 1967 borders, stop giving Jewish fanatics from Brooklyn and Moscow the land that Palestinians have cultivated for generations, on some racist basis that they are "God's chosen people."

 

[Matrices]

Israel has been raided and destroyed and conquered a dozen times over the past 3500 years. So has pretty much every other square inch of land on Earth. What about countries that were conquered 70 years ago? Should they be reverted too? 80? 90? 100? Your choice has nothing to do with fairness, the world isn't fair, there is no country on earth that isn't the result of thousands of years of invasions. Maybe all of Europe should just revert to Roman boundaries.

You are obviously confusing "Israel" and "Israel". Israel, the modern-day nation state, created in 1948, is what exists today, and is what was established by ethnically cleansing the Palestinians - a point that you don't even dispute.

Look at the sad level of argument you have to resort to just to defend Israeli colonialism - "every piece of earth has been raided and destroyed, so whatever Israel does today is justified because the world isn't fair."

Really? That's your stirring defense of injustice? Try telling that to people whose homes are being bulldozed or who are having their livelihoods (farmland) stolen from them to make way for racist "Jewish-only" roads and villages built on stolen land.

According to your reasoning, every atrocity, war crime, genocide, etc., is acceptable because "life is unfair." Canadians could annex the northern half of US and your argument would be "shit happens" and Americans should not resist occupation? That is ludicrous.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is a colonial settler-state. It will never achieve the security it keeps pretending to want until it stops oppressing and terrorizing the people whose land it has stolen, period.

 

[NickM]

GIVE IT A REST.
Did the evil Israelies use drones on the peace loving flotilla?
NO? THEN WHY IS IT IN THIS THREAD?
I know where I stand on the whole mid east thing, and this thread is NOT the place for it.

 

[Phoenix333]

Thread has been reported to Tim (moderator).

 

[stevedave]

as soon as Japan takes over the Moon with robots they will be sending Drones down to earth to eliminate the human race Playstation style. And I have 2 defenses ready A cardboard box to hide in MGS style, and a panda bear suit because even predator drones like panda bears.

 

[TexUs]

History lesson time.

The fact of the matter is the Palestinian people couldn't govern themselves or even really defend themselves during WW1 (because of so much infighting, in part). I guess the Allies could've never entered into that part of the land and just let them all die, but then I'd assume you'd complain because we did nothing.

When WW1 ended, we needed stability, and fast. That area was then given to Britain (by what was then a kind of "UN") to administer and keep under control.

Britain proposed to split it into both Arab and Jews, except what your sensationalist bias won't tell you is that Britain actually tried to reverse its stance and limit the number of Jews able to come in.

Later, (after people just like you, complained about "Jewish rights" this time) Jews were permitted to migrate. There was still no Jewish/Arab split at this point. They were trying to promote peace and not have both the Arab and the Jew at each other... Still pretty peaceful at this point.

However, due to complaining between both the Jews, Arabs, US, Britain, UN, and basically everyone that had an opinion, it was taken before the UN (really the best thing that could've been done)- and the division then took place (with the vast majority in favor). Again- to try to keep the peace. It was thought that they (Jews and Arabs) couldn't live peaceably, so they sought to just divide it into their own states and let them each manage their own.
Now, at this point, the Arabs were still disorganized and unable to do squat. The Jews on the other hand built up in strength. There were still no states or officials yet, but that's just a point to note.

From then on, both sides bickered about it, provoked by Britain (who didn't want to give up control), Isreal finally threw off Britain and declared their independence... Granting citizenship to anyone within their borders (including Arabs).

Sounds like a peaceable ending, sure. Until the Arabs then decided to fight back. The same group that was so dis-organized they couldn't run themselves finally found something to unite against- and that continues up to this day.



So who is "wrong"? Really, nobody. I guess the Allies could've never entered into that part of the land and just let them all die, but then I'd assume you'd complain because we did nothing.

But technically speaking, the Arabs threw the first stone here, in the bloody conflict this has turned out to be.
Britain and the UN were both seeking to make it peaceable. Like I said, the Jews were strong enough regardless of Britain, it's not like they were going anywhere. Either them and the Arabs could've lived together (Which Isreal TRIED to do by granting them citizenship), or they could've fought with each other. The Arab world chose the later.

 

[TexUs]

GIVE IT A REST.
Did the evil Israelies use drones on the peace loving flotilla?
NO? THEN WHY IS IT IN THIS THREAD?
I know where I stand on the whole mid east thing, and this thread is NOT the place for it.

Good point.

So- anyone want to take bets on how long PS3s will be used to control actual drones?

 

[swiftB3]

<snip>
An example of this: a dozen soldiers die, and it's big news here. You go back to the Roman conquests, the Crusades, heck even the Denmark/Sweden conflict, which is kindof modern (9500 died in one day)... Thousands died in battles every day. Technology has changed that.

Exactly this. Button pushing is not increasing death count in any way.

Heck, in Napoleon's Battle of Waterloo, in a single day, there were a combined 40,000 casualties and another 22,000 missing. The farther back you go, the bigger the numbers get.

 

[TexUs]

If you want to look at Biblical events (so, we're talking REALLY old), hundreds of thousands of deaths.
If you went back, even 200 years ago, and said "We lost 12 guys!", I'm sure they'd look at you and be like, "Really? Awesome! Only 12!"

Technology has changed warfare, enabling us not to "destroy the bulk of the enemy at the front lines" but rather cut our way inside and cut out the heart (key people).

I also think what (Nemisis maybe??) someone said earlier about a human having to react to being shot plays a key. I'd say if I think someone is pulling a gun on me, I'd probably shoot them before they shot me. Whereas in a drone, piloted thousands of miles away: you can actually wait and see what they're going to do- no lives on the line.

 

[stevedave]

If you want to look at Biblical events (so, we're talking REALLY old), hundreds of thousands of deaths.
If you went back, even 200 years ago, and said "We lost 12 guys!", I'm sure they'd look at you and be like, "Really? Awesome! Only 12!"

Technology has changed warfare, enabling us not to "destroy the bulk of the enemy at the front lines" but rather cut our way inside and cut out the heart (key people).

I also think what (Nemisis maybe??) someone said earlier about a human having to react to being shot plays a key. I'd say if I think someone is pulling a gun on me, I'd probably shoot them before they shot me. Whereas in a drone, piloted thousands of miles away: you can actually wait and see what they're going to do- no lives on the line.

I think us loosing only 12 people is part of the what the UN is afraid of, because there is no risk of casualty that there is lees need for due diligence in operations. (though this is likely not the case)

also combined with the fact that the US may only loose 12 people while the other side looses hundreds including possible civilians.

I think the UN is just being empathetic towards the people we (the US) are killing.

 

[Nemesis999]

Really? That's your stirring defense of injustice? Try telling that to people whose homes are being bulldozed or who are having their livelihoods (farmland) stolen from them to make way for racist "Jewish-only" roads and villages built on stolen land.

According to your reasoning, every atrocity, war crime, genocide, etc., is acceptable because "life is unfair." Canadians could annex the northern half of US and your argument would be "shit happens" and Americans should not resist occupation? That is ludicrous.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is a colonial settler-state. It will never achieve the security it keeps pretending to want until it stops oppressing and terrorizing the people whose land it has stolen, period.

Your argument only stands because you place a vastly inferior value on Jews then Muslims.

You're support Hamas, an organization with the mission of "killing the Jews", most of which were born in Israel, right in their founding charter, in order to "correct" the injustice of forcing Muslims, only a tiny minority of whom actually live in modern "Palestine" today, out, All this is justified by some crack-pot delusion that the killing of the children of the people that forced the Muslims out by the children of the Muslims forced out is somehow justified.

No, you're not a racist at all. Enjoy your "justice", I'm sure the 85%+ of Jews that did nothing beyond get born in Israel are horrible horrible people that deserve to be killed.

 

[Matrices]

Nothing says "self-defense" quite like shooting an American four times in the face:

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/Gare...ed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848&page=3

How do you have time to shoot someone in the face four times, and once in the chest, if you are supposedly being mobbed by the passengers?


Texus, your historical rundown is partly true, but you miss some key parts. If you take a gander at Benny Morris' book "Righteous Victims" or "1948 and After", you will see that the so-called 1948 war was actually two wars: one 'civil war', in which Jewish militia expelled Arabs on the Israel-to-be side of the divide, and then the post-May 15, 1948 war, when Arab irregulars did battle against Israel and Jewish militia.

The key point in all this is that neither the UN nor Britain nor US had any right to hand over Palestine to the Jews of Europe. Ghandi was right about this: this was a disastrous mistake. The Jews were wronged in Europe; they should have been given land in Europe. The Arabs were made to pay for Europe's crimes, and that, if anything, is what "started" the conflict.

 

[Matrices]

Your argument only stands because you place a vastly inferior value on Jews then Muslims.

You're support Hamas, an organization with the mission of "killing the Jews", most of which were born in Israel, right in their founding charter, in order to "correct" the injustice of forcing Muslims, only a tiny minority of whom actually live in modern "Palestine" today, out, All this is justified by some crack-pot delusion that the killing of the children of the people that forced the Muslims out by the children of the Muslims forced out is somehow justified.

No, you're not a racist at all. Enjoy your "justice", I'm sure the 85%+ of Jews that did nothing beyond get born in Israel are horrible horrible people that deserve to be killed.

You're hopelessly delusional. You have no argument, so you lie and put words in my mouth to hide your inability to argue what is actually on the table. I never said I support Hamas, but oh well, yet another lie in a train of lies from someone who can't argue the actual points being argued. So easy to do that on the internet...

 

[Nemesis999]

How do you have time to shoot someone in the face four times, and once in the chest, if you are supposedly being mobbed by the passengers?

When you come at one of the commandos with a knife and/or point a gun at them and several of them put bullets in you at the same time.

People end up with 10+ bullets in them for pointing a gun at cops all the time.

 

[WorldExclusive]

I wonder who has the highest GamerScore or kills in a day.

 

[Nemesis999]

You're hopelessly delusional. You have no argument, so you lie and put words in my mouth to hide your inability to argue what is actually on the table. I never said I support Hamas, but oh well, yet another lie in a train of lies from someone who can't argue the actual points being argued. So easy to do that on the internet...

So you only support groups that support Hamas? Why do you think they were bringing in supplies? To help the people? If they wanted to do that they would have just transfered them through Israel like every civil nation on earth. Are you honestly delusional enough to believe that these were "peaceful civilians"? The purpose of the Flotilla was to directly supply Hamas with goods and cash to pay for soldiers and loyalty.

 

[TexUs]

You're support Hamas, an organization with the mission of "killing the Jews",

Not exactly true. Hamas, along with most terrorist organizations, started out with good intentions. It still does good things to this day.
A side effect of the Islamic faith, along with wealthy organizations, is they eventually do spawn the militant side of them that makes the news, mainly in countries like that were it really isn't as discouraged as say, here in America.

We're in America... We only see the bad. I'm just saying there's more to the story than the sensationalized version. The only way to solve that conflict is to solve the idea... Show them the flaw in their thinking. We can't do that with technology and military, which is why we're just wasting our time over there to be honest.

Texus, your historical rundown is partly true, but you miss some key parts. If you take a gander at Benny Morris' book "Righteous Victims" or "1948 and After", you will see that the so-called 1948 war was actually two wars: one 'civil war', in which Jewish militia expelled Arabs on the Israel-to-be side of the divide, and then the post-May 15, 1948 war, when Arab irregulars did battle against Israel and Jewish militia.

I really can care two $hits less about what happened afterwords. You were arguing about who was to blame? I showed you who was to blame. Isreal attempted peace, Arabs fought back. You can't expect Isreal to just sit on their hands and let themselves be attacked. They'll fight back, did, and will.

The key point in all this is that neither the UN nor Britain nor US had any right to hand over Palestine to the Jews of Europe.

When they can't defend or govern themselves, and the allies have to move in to do that: it gives them every right to start governing it- they were the ones that saved it. Last time I checked people complain when the US/UN just leaves countries to fend for themselves (if we then would've left them in the shambles they were). It happens all throughout history, it still happens to this day. If they don't like it, perhaps they could have spent more time working together than fighting against each other- so that they could've actually stood by themselves. Or even once Britain had stepped in, they could have organized themselves as a presentable organization willing to govern themselves. They couldn't even get a PLAN together to present to the UN!!!!
Sorry- but none of that happened. They want responsibility of their own state but sure as hell didn't take initiative to show any.

If you disagree, that's fine. But this isn't some one-way "Isreal is all evil" nonsense.

How did that subject come up, anyway?

I think us loosing only 12 people is part of the what the UN is afraid of, because there is no risk of casualty that there is lees need for due diligence in operations. (though this is likely not the case)

also combined with the fact that the US may only loose 12 people while the other side looses hundreds including possible civilians.

I think the UN is just being empathetic towards the people we (the US) are killing.

I think so, too. Which is another debate in and of itself. I think we can all argue that it gets less people killed though, and all agree to that stance. It puts less of our people in the way, and it puts less enemies in the way (being we only need to take out key people).

Since a drone can also just follow someone, it also allows us more time to decide what to do with that person versus just having one shot in an open confrontation.

 

[Matrices]

You were arguing about who was to blame? I showed you who was to blame. Isreal attempted peace, Arabs fought back. You can't expect Isreal to just sit on their hands and let themselves be attacked. They'll fight back, did, and will.

You didn't really show anything, sorry.

In your narrative, Israel (not "Isreal") attempted "peace" and the Arabs "fought back." That doesn't square with any of the Israeli 'new historian' scholarship I've read. How can people who found their country by stealing part of your land want "peace?" It's like I come over your house, annex your living room, and then say I want "peace". It's ludicrous.

You miss the big picture. The *creation of Israel* was, in and of itself, an act of war upon the native Palestinian population, since it was founded by expelling that population. Just as the creation of white South Africa impinged upon the blacks there, and the creation of white settlements in early America impinged upon the Native American, and white settlers in Australia impinged upon the Aborogines.

No honest person is going to say, "Gee those crazy native Indians, they attacked those white settlements for no reason." Sure, people said that back in the day, but everyone today knows that the white settlements were, in and of themselves, an encroachment upon Indian land that expanded on and on until the Indian had almost nothing left.

Same situation with Israel. It is naive to say "Israel wanted peace" in 1948 when the very means by which Israel was created - inserting foreign, white Europeans onto Arab soil - was an act of war. Europe's decision to dump its Jewish community into the heart of the Arab world was supremely in error.

 

[TexUs]

In your narrative, Israel (not "Isreal") attempted "peace" and the Arabs "fought back." That doesn't square with any of the Israeli 'new historian' scholarship I've read. How can people who found their country by stealing part of your land want "peace?" It's like I come over your house, annex your living room, and then say I want "peace". It's ludicrous.

You mean the "new BS" scholarship? Dude, just go read the records from the British requests. Everything I've said is true. Britain tried to limit the Jews, then they tried to live alongside each other in peace, and when all that failed the last act of Isreal was to grant everyone citizenship. What the hell else can they do? Leave? You can just drop that idea right now because it'll never happen. Isreal isn't going anywhere.

It's also not like stealing my house. You try to steal my house and I'd shoot your ass dead... Arabs couldn't defend nor govern themselves in the war, the Allies came in and helped. It's like me going into the slum and living with a poor family, and managing their house and protecting it from the druggies. They never try to get back on their feet, so I pretty much end up staying.

since it was founded by expelling that population.

Hence the granting of citizenship?

 

[TwistedAegis]

I have to agree with the "political risk" argument. As of right now, politicans have to think hard before entering any conflict, because with US casualties comes serious political consequences at home.

While there is press about the drone war, it is because it is new. And the press certainly isn't stopping anything. When we can just send drones or other new robots "over there" to do our killing for us, outside of the "issues" people how many will take time out of their daily lives to care?

Also, what about cost? Currently it is estimated that about 500 have been killed in Pakistan. Only a handful, as acknowledged by the CIA, have been "priority" targets. About 20% have been civilians. So, is it really cost effective to kill a bunch of rank and file soldiers with Hellfire missles fired from drones? And blow up a few families in the crossfire? Because I'm sure that won't piss anyone off and increase recruiting at all...I guess that isn't a bad thing if you build Hellfire missles or drones.

 

[Matrices]

Are you even familiar with the scholarship, or are you just dismissing it because it contradicts your own beliefs?

I would be a little more careful before I declaimed that 25 years of Israel's best historians are "bullshit." They are called "new historians" because they are the generation of historians who have gone through declassified Israeli state and military archives, and because they debunked the key Zionist myths about Israel. Unless you have access to the same archives, I'd think it's wise to listen.

I told you where I am getting my information - the authors are Tom Segev, Avi Shlaim, Benny Morris, Tanya Reinhart, and Ilan Pappe. Now you tell me - where are you getting your information?

Because the idea that Israel "extended citizenship" to everyone is fantastically absurd. Zionism is the ideology of Jewish nationalism, and the goal of Zionist settlers - all Europeans, mind you - from 1900-1949 was to create a solid Jewish majority within British-mandated Palestine. To do that, they had to expel the Arabs who were already living there, and that is precisely what they did. Once that happened full scale in 1948, they took over (that is, stole) their property, farms, and land, and handed it to the incoming Jewish settlers.

None of this is particularly groundbreaking; the diaries of the original Zionist leaders reveal all this information pretty openly. I quoted three of them near the bottom of the last page. Go ahead and read it. Assuming you do not contest those quotes, there is no way on earth you can assert with a straight face that Israel is anything but a colonial settler-state.

The point of all this is simple: Israel was established through ethnic cleansing, its "original sin."

As Israeli scholar Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi put it:

&#8220;Israelis seem to be haunted by a curse. It is the curse of the original sin against the native Arabs. How can Israel be discussed without recalling the dispossession and exclusion of non-Jews? This is the most basic fact about Israel, and no understanding of Israeli reality is possible without it. The original sin haunts and torments Israelis; it marks everything and taints everybody. Its memory poisons the blood and marks every moment of existence..&#8221;

 

[Matrices]

Without understanding the true history of Israel, you can understanding nothing else that followed. Only when you establish who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed, and what the grievances are, can you put everything in context.

 

[bacon]

The ones operating these remote drones are just taking orders like any soldier. It isn't them deciding someones fate on the ground.

 

[Phoenix333]

I'd like to remote drone the ongoing Arab-Israeli conflict on the message board. I get sick of threads that devolve into:

"I'm right, you're wrong!"
"You're wrong, I'm right!"

repeated over and over, where no concerned parties have any intention of changing their viewpoint and are too dense to realize that nobody that they're arguing with is going to accept their viewpoint either. It just devolves into useless bickering and people actually wanting to comment on the thread topic can't get a word in edgewise. If this was my own message board I'd have at least two suspended users right now.

 

[Tim]

This isn't the soapbox, guys.