China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,912
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    According to Bloomberg, the Chinese government is seeking increasing control of its tech companies, which are enjoying tremendous success: this would include Communist Party committees being installed to ensure national goals, a request for government stakes, and companies’ investment in state-owned firms. Many say that this is hardly a surprise, based on the country’s authoritarian nature.

    This quasi-nationalization applies to China's startup scene, too. One recent report found that 60 percent of Chinese unicorns have either direct or indirect investment from the BATs. China's venture-capital sector is dominated not by traditional tech dealmakers but by the state: There are more than 1,000 government-owned VC firms in China, controlling more than $750 billion.
     
  2. Ultima99

    Ultima99 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,668
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    This is probably a good thing for the West.

    My first thought was "Hey, our tech companies are doing so well on their own as capitalist enterprises we should take them for ourselves!".
     
    GotNoRice and SecretStash like this.
  3. Despotes

    Despotes Gawd

    Messages:
    751
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Well, they are Communists.
     
    kirbyrj, Madoc, Exercate and 6 others like this.
  4. Delicieuxz

    Delicieuxz Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    380
    Joined:
    May 11, 2016
    Megalith likes this.
  5. gxp500

    gxp500 Gawd

    Messages:
    612
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2015
    Something tells me trump will assume all chip's coming from china will be backdoored.
     
    velusip likes this.
  6. lostin3d

    lostin3d Gawd

    Messages:
    845
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Kind of amazes me that with so much hardware made in Korea and China that neither has take over the world with an OS. Just one of those things that makes you go hmmm?
     
  7. opfreak

    opfreak Gawd

    Messages:
    630
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005

    Why would you assume they aren't?
     
  8. lostin3d

    lostin3d Gawd

    Messages:
    845
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Be funny if he throw's a hissy banning more companies from China, then only to have the Army/Air Force inform him the x-box controllers they're using depend on those companies for components.
     
  9. noko

    noko 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,608
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    As China tightens down and tries to dictate, I predict the quality and innovations will cease to point their products will become non-competitive. Bad for China.
     
  10. Azphira

    Azphira [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,518
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    I'm waiting for their western sympathizers to start calling people racist for calling them communist.
     
    the901 and Nukester like this.
  11. Chunder

    Chunder Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    487
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    When NASA was properly funded (before private companies bribed government officials and stole billions in funds, aka Space X), strict and focused requirements on NASA during the race to the moon didn't negatively affect them, same goes with the development of the internet and atomic bomb. You just need to get the brightest minds, give them a goal, and hand them the resources they need to achieve said goal. I see China having the potential to do this with these companies, especially with their budget surplus and the massive investments they've already been making in various sectors.
     
  12. SecretStash

    SecretStash Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    240
    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    I think you're probably right. It will be bureaucracy vs innovation. Bureaucracy will be too desirous of certain things (e.g. want the better spying AI) and will miss in the next big thing.
     
  13. noko

    noko 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,608
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    That may sound good but in reality favoritism, politics, no real incentives as in getting something out of it when totally revolutionizing something = dead, slow inefficient progress, the best people are not promoted. Top people will go else where and SpaceX is showing way more efficient costs to progress as time goes on. You could also say that with the Soviet Space Program, bring in the best minds and look at Russian now - Stagnant when initially they were the leaders. Nasa cost over runs pretty much mandated allowing private enterprise to take a more active role.

    China is just putting a knife right through their remarkable tech industry. It won't be the best leading those industries after awhile - it will be the ones that tote the party line. Too bad for China.
     
  14. mullet

    mullet [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,445
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    I am sure investors feel soooooo relieved. HAHAHHAAaaaaaaaa
     
  15. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,405
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    This is how capitalism works. In order for it to do well, it relies on communist countries with poor living conditions. Remember, it was our capitalist demand for iPhones that created the awful working conditions that the Chinese had. Everyone turns a blind eye and Apple profits.

    This is a good thing for the west cause that means less regulations and more profits. After all what's a bit more smog for the Chinese when there's so much profit to be made for the west.

     
  16. opfreak

    opfreak Gawd

    Messages:
    630
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    You linked bullshit.
     
    Venos, Madoc, Nukester and 1 other person like this.
  17. SmokeRngs

    SmokeRngs [H]ard|DCer of the Month - April 2008

    Messages:
    16,858
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    China has historically been the type to steal and copy, not innovate. For whatever reason, China has never been one to push for future innovation. That's a big reason why you don't see China leading anything. As a whole the country is perfectly willing to do little while attempting to reap the rewards of what others have done.

    With regards to the article, China is just shooting itself in the foot if this is true rather than just publicly stating what had already happened long ago.
     
    Venos, Madoc and lostin3d like this.
  18. Mega6

    Mega6 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    459
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    damn Commies.. always Nationionalizing wtf is up with that? :confused:
     
  19. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,844
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    It depends on your definition of historical.
    This is and article from Blomberg, so it answers nothing, who knows what the Chinese government wants or will do.... Right now the US is engaged in a war with everyone pretty much.
     
  20. Mega6

    Mega6 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    459
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    China does what Xi wants. Just elected dictator for well ever. Mao jr. whatever. China has a long term plan.. and I know it's tough for American media to pay attention to anything for more than like 2 seconds. Create islands on the south china sea to keep our nuclear subs at bay. building a base between US and Australia. Read up 1935, the Japan analogies are many and obvious.

    China is beating us at our own game because they are a directed economy that does the will of the few. We have a democracy with Politicians unable and unwilling to do their jobs. Engage, compromise, negotiate. These skills needed to govern have been lost. Our government no longer functions because of this. So China = directed ; USA = stalemate ; Wonder who will get more done?

    We've been at war for what, last 17 years? So what's a better way to drain an economy but with yet another low scale unwinnable conflict.
     
    Chunder likes this.
  21. theBrownLlama

    theBrownLlama Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    294
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    don't need China to beat USA. USA citizens are beating themselves at the game.
    Those South China Sea freedom of navigation exercises has only been given bad press.

    but most importantly, USA has tighten their purse strings too much. Got to spend those billions on shady politicians and dictators around the world, to get any real patronage and preference.

    you're def correct that the US is now run by headless chickens though. US should just use weapons suitable for a low-tech enemy, like how the Russians do things, then you can see the budget get slashed by 90% and yet remain effective
     
  22. ChadD

    ChadD I Love TEXAS

    Messages:
    2,455
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    That whole don't sell the Chinese US made chips anymore has completely backfired. This move only makes sense... I don't think anyone thought China would spend 100s of billions developing chips and 2-3% of their GDP on R&D and not expect some control over the companies they are giving the money to.
     
  23. Nunu

    Nunu [H]Lite

    Messages:
    111
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2017
    Lol took these guys long enough, anything even remotely dealing with their national interests gets folded into the govt.
     
  24. Nukester

    Nukester [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,139
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2016
    Like it or not, Trump is right to crack down on Chinese goods. They are nothing but repacked shitty remakes of our innovation.
     
  25. Ultima99

    Ultima99 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,668
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Well somebody has been indoctrinated...

    I'm afraid your liberal arts professors who have lived their entire lives in the fantasy bubble of academia have lied to you. In fact, they're so clueless about the world they couldn't tell you the truth because they don't know what that is.

    You do realize that Communism wasn't a thing until 1848, right? And capitalism was alive and doing VERY well way before that, right? And that no Communist country has ever been a success, right? China has only begun to do well for themselves as they become more capitalist. Now the state sees the success of private industry and they want to seize it for themselves, but will most likely just wreck the companies. This was the point of my first post which you completely missed because you're too busy blaming capitalism and the white man for all the evil in the world. Go virtue signal somewhere else.
     
    Venos and Madoc like this.
  26. opfreak

    opfreak Gawd

    Messages:
    630
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    His video proof of something was nothing more then a rant by some anti-capitalist. The closest thing the video had to any actual factual argument was that the chart of economic freedom was created by the heritage foundation. Otherwise it was nothing but14+ mins of rambling.
     
  27. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,405
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    What I'm trying to tell you is that capitalist countries depend on communist countries for cheap goods and labor. China has worked with us to ensure that cheap labor stays cheap. By having the government take over production, it might be in favor of our capitalist companies who seek to continue manufacturing on the cheap. Unless the Chinese government decides to put in labor laws and emissions regulations similar to our own, I can't see how this is going to make things worse for anyone but the Chinese citizens.
     
  28. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,405
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    No, the point of the video was to show that capitalist countries depend on cheap labor and resources from communist countries, or ones ruled by dictators. If China were to push for regulations and higher living standards, we'll just end up packing up our factories and moving someplace more poor and unfortunate.
     
  29. Mega6

    Mega6 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    459
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    Agreed, its already happening. Now that China's standard of living has be increased by USA dollars, companies are looking at India and S/E Asia and other areas. Capitalism is just going to the cheap labor market, it can be anywhere. Communism has nothing to do with cheap labor other than they have screwed up the economy so bad, people suffer and have low wages there. Lookup Mao and China in the 50s.
     
    Madoc likes this.
  30. Spidey329

    Spidey329 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,506
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Eh, we already assume that. The DOD has directives in place to stop the usage of a lot of China company products.

    DJI was found to be sending data back and can't be used. Xaomi and Huawei are no longer acceptable for use in many agencies.

    If you think about it, it's a smart strategy to use popular tech companies to gather intel on foreign nation's. So I'd just assume they're doing it directly (via direct party control within the company). And we're doing it via plants within our tech companies.

    So really, when you're buying a product, you just have to choose who you want to be spying on you.
     
  31. Mega6

    Mega6 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    459
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
  32. opfreak

    opfreak Gawd

    Messages:
    630
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    If that was the point it failed to make it. Other then just stating it as you have, it had ZERO evidence to back up the claim. ZERO.
     
  33. Ultima99

    Ultima99 [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,668
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Didn't I say this was probably good for us?

    China has made their labor cheap by a combination of overpopulation, underdevelopment, and failed communist policy. None of this was specifically to help us out, they just think they know what is best.

    Rather than keep things cheap the Chinese government could very well wreck these companies with their meddling. These companies became tech powerhouses in the first place through capitalism and now their government wants to take that away. It will likely make things for the average Chinese citizen, but also for those companies themselves and their nation as a whole.
     
  34. Mega6

    Mega6 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    459
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2017
    Once you've been Communist, moved people from cities to the farms/communes for the "Great Leap Forward" and the starvation of about 18 million - It's easy to go back. Or do pretty much anything you want.
     
  35. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,405
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Well, Communism helps because it can ensure that things like safety for workers and a maximum hours in a work week are not something you can just vote for. Hence why some Chinese citizens jump off roofs from working in factories and why the air is so bad you can create a brick from it. Also, what's this intellectual property thing?



    China is for China, but China knows that those capitalist investors are what drive its economy. So they will bend over for them, until they're no longer needed. Has it already reached that point? I doubt it, but it could be that China has either no trust in privately controlled businesses or they just want to regulate them in ways they feel is better for China.

    I'm sure investors are scared of what could China be doing, but nah there's nothing to be afraid of. But the Chinese citizens should shit bricks.
     
  36. SmokeRngs

    SmokeRngs [H]ard|DCer of the Month - April 2008

    Messages:
    16,858
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Communism as practiced has always meant a few people in power in the government control everything the way they see fit. For you to think those very people are doing good things for "the people" makes you extremely naive at best.

    The problem with your assumption that China can reach a point where they don't need others is asinine. China isn't setup to work that way. They have been leeching and stealing from others to copy what they've done for a very long time and do not have the mindset nor the proper infrastructure to take a leadership position. Without a huge change in the way they do things it simply cannot happen.

    Nationalizing the tech sector will do one thing and one thing only, it will force the tech sector to focus only on what a single person or maybe a small group wants. That can only work if that person or people guess exactly right in what is needed. The likelihood of that happening isn't even worth figuring out the odds on. That's the reason why countries who allow the private sector to do its own thing are generally much more successful. It may not research and complete something in record time but it allows many more projects to be simultaneously run with much better odds of researching useful things.
     
  37. Aireoth

    Aireoth Gawd

    Messages:
    951
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2005
    This is not a capitalism thing, it's been going on for a lot longer than capitalism. That is where you drank the coolaid.

    Back to the topic, the reality is we (the world) are in a race to develop AI. My bet is that will be China's focus as they basically reassert control onlver these companies.
     
  38. Old_Way

    Old_Way Gawd

    Messages:
    657
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    China is just doing what it has to for survival. They have a huge debt (worse than the US by a fair amount) and an aging population (the 1 child policy has left them among the fastest aging countries on the planet). They need heavy government control or it may all fall apart.
    China's economy:


    Watch this if you have an hour to get a decent world overview. If you just want to see some info on what's really going on in China, start about 35:40 or so:
    World overview:
     
  39. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,844
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    That debt argument is bullshit.
    Their economy might implode, fine... but these debt numbers are complex things, anything I have read from normal channels is typical US propaganda.. anything I have read from respectable economic publications paint a much more complex picture and it would seem to me a lot less dire.
    That being said, yeah like any country their size and population, they have problems to match, its not surprising.
     
  40. Old_Way

    Old_Way Gawd

    Messages:
    657
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    We'll know one way or the other about China in the next 4 or 5 years... same with Russia. The Russian demographics are so bad that their army will only be roughly half the size by 2022. The average male lifespan is around 60 years old in Russia.... combined with them forgetting how to have children back in the 70s and they have issues.
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?...07987180328259246&selectedIndex=16&ajaxhist=0
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?...2*thid_OIP.9mr-FRsKYo9jGYsQgnPjBwHaGD&iss=VSI
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?...608006404584506096&selectedIndex=6&ajaxhist=0