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Charge Your Electronics Before Boarding

heatlesssun said:
Considering the enormous amount of damage that just one plan can do to the general welfare, doesn't someone have to be responsible for who and what gets on an airplane?
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Would this be the TSA agent who couldn't read my passport correctly at the security line and told me it was expired? He was reading the issue date not the expiration date. This would be the security line that had no one else in it but me during an early afternoon lull between flights. But you know, safety first! And hire "agents" via pizza box adverts.

Would this be the TSA that told a relative they couldn't bring a sealed bottle of booze from the duty free shop in LAX aboard and they'd have to confiscate it unless they got out of line to dispose of it? My relative proceeded to leave the line and dump said booze out into a garbage can so the goons didn't get free alcohol.

How about the agent that back in 2004 asked me "whats this?" pointing to a small eyeglass repair kit in my carry on bag that had a small screwdriver in it. "Uh, a repair kit for my glasses." "Good answer!" Said TSA goon was wearing glasses himself.

At least some of the TSA goons get arrested when caught stealing from bags. But like totally we're safer now man!
 
aardvark sandwich said:
Sigh.

My opinion is relevant, because they are chasing my dollars.
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They are chasing everyone's dollars that have dollars to give that need their services. So no one opinion would generally be particularly relevant.

aardvark sandwich said:
The TSA has no competition. That is of no benefit to anyone.
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So every airline would have it's own security procedures at it's gates? What about security throughout the facility?

aardvark sandwich said:
We have massive, nation-wide, bipartisan outcries of discontent towards the TSA. The TSA doesn't give a shit, they just ban another article of clothing.
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We have massive outcries about everything these days. Show me anything related to security or law enforcement these days that people are happy about. Like somehow by simply privatizing these things the complaints go away or quality improves. And even if airport security were privatized, the first thing people like you would do is go "Thanks Obama" if something criminal happened with a plane. But ultimately most everyone would point fingers at government and demand some action.
 
heatlesssun said:
What they want, like any business, is to make money and be profitable. So if business isn't profitable, you or anyone else caring or not is irrelevant. Running airport security would be a massive and expensive undertaking for the airline industry. If planes are going to fly, whether or not a person flies, keeping air travel safe is of benefit to everyone. If airlines want the undertaking and they think they can do a better job, so be it. But if they do not want the job and don't think they'd be effective, then what benefit is that to anyone?
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There are over 800 million air travelers in the USA (or to and from the USA) annually ... a $10 fee would cover the entirety of the TSA budget ... even if you gave the airlines control of perimeter security (a more ambitious undertaking) I am sure that a 3rd party security organization could handle the task for the billions at stake ... if we were to take security out of the hands of the government there are a number of improvements that could be made:

- All ticket transactions could require a bank account transfer or credit card (both of which offer more identity security) ... no more cash based travel
- All travel could require an airline frequent flyer number (which again requires more personal information which helps to verify identity)
- The airlines and the 3rd party security teams they could employ are not bound by the 4th amendment so they could search any bags and persons they deem necessary ... airlines already have pretty good indemnification for lost bags so they could probably carry this over to searching bags
- In a fee based security system they could use new security technologies that might be too expensive or too intrusive for the government

If your ultimate goal is better security then privatizing it can make USA airports as secure as Israeli ones (which are the gold standard of airport security). Since the security companies might not be as interested in smaller airports you could have the government subsidize those perhaps to make it more attractive to the 3rd parties. We should already have a sufficient number of cameras inside the airport but if not we can add more cameras and thermal sensors. In foreign airports you are under visual and thermal observation almost constantly
 
Most if not all laptops today have two compartments for hard drives, not just one

I dunno how "Proving the laptop works" is going to stop a laptop from containing a bomb, but, ok I guess
 
kbrickley said:
- The airlines and the 3rd party security teams they could employ are not bound by the 4th amendment so they could search any bags and persons they deem necessary
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So it's not okay for the government to do it because of the 4th Amendment but no one would have a problem with a private company doing it? And again, it's not the cost but the risk involved. This all goes to hell in a hand basket for the airlines with just one 9/11 type of attack. The airlines to a massive beating in the aftermath of 9/11 and if the industry had been in charge of something like the TSA then it would have been a complete disaster form them.
 
heatlesssun said:
So it's not okay for the government to do it because of the 4th Amendment but no one would have a problem with a private company doing it?
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Yup, because if you didn't like their policy then you could use a competing service... only issue would be if its government mandated, because then its still really the government carrying it out.
 
Ducman69 said:
Yup, because if you didn't like their policy then you could use a competing service... only issue would be if its government mandated, because then its still really the government carrying it out.
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This creates so much conflict of interest its mindboggling. "Fly with us! We don't screen bags!" "Fly with us! We scan everything!" "Fly with us! No security checks!" There's a place for market competition and then there's not. And I think this is one of the nots.
 
heatlesssun said:
So it's not okay for the government to do it because of the 4th Amendment but no one would have a problem with a private company doing it? And again, it's not the cost but the risk involved. This all goes to hell in a hand basket for the airlines with just one 9/11 type of attack. The airlines to a massive beating in the aftermath of 9/11 and if the industry had been in charge of something like the TSA then it would have been a complete disaster form them.
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The airline security was nationalized after 9-11 (prior to that it was private ... the airports controlled it then and they could control it again)... not all the failings that led to 9-11 were solely the fault of the airport screeners and they have fixed the most egregious errors (like not having reinforced cockpit doors) ... for most short flights the cockpit door is never opened for the duration of the flight ... so the chance of another 9-11 is very slim

I think we will see something totally new from a terror attack the next time (which is why I proposed thermal sensors in the airport) ... I think it will be a disease based attack ... the thermal sensors help you pick out anyone with a fever ... in the China airports you will trigger special security screens if you have a fever (maybe even a quarantine) because of SARS

And right now I think folks are on a major anti-government swing so they might tolerate something from a private company they would never tolerate from the government ... I would rather have professional soldiers and mercs doing security (which is what you would get with the 3rd parties) that just a low paid government employee

The one downside of switching back to private is we would lose TSA precheck, but I would think the private companies could figure out something equivalent for the $100 fee
 
heatlesssun said:
This creates so much conflict of interest its mindboggling. "Fly with us! We don't screen bags!" "Fly with us! We scan everything!" "Fly with us! No security checks!" There's a place for market competition and then there's not. And I think this is one of the nots.
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Wrong.

It incentives efficient, unobtrusive security methodologies.

  • All airlines want safe planes.
  • All airlines want happy customers.
  • ?
  • Profit
 
kbrickley said:
The airline security was nationalized after 9-11 (prior to that it was private ... the airports controlled it then and they could control it again)... not all the failings that led to 9-11 were solely the fault of the airport screeners and they have fixed the most egregious errors (like not having reinforced cockpit doors) ... for most short flights the cockpit door is never opened for the duration of the flight ... so the chance of another 9-11 is very slim

I think we will see something totally new from a terror attack the next time (which is why I proposed thermal sensors in the airport) ... I think it will be a disease based attack ... the thermal sensors help you pick out anyone with a fever ... in the China airports you will trigger special security screens if you have a fever (maybe even a quarantine) because of SARS

And right now I think folks are on a major anti-government swing so they might tolerate something from a private company they would never tolerate from the government ... I would rather have professional soldiers and mercs doing security (which is what you would get with the 3rd parties) that just a low paid government employee

The one downside of switching back to private is we would lose TSA precheck, but I would think the private companies could figure out something equivalent for the $100 fee
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I'm not saying the airlines couldn't do this. What I am saying is that they couldn't handle the aftermath if something very bad happened. The airlines struggled mightily after 9/11. I don't think that airlines in bankruptcy while responsible for proper security would have been doing the airlines or anyone else any favors.
 
heatlesssun said:
I'm not saying the airlines couldn't do this. What I am saying is that they couldn't handle the aftermath if something very bad happened. The airlines struggled mightily after 9/11. I don't think that airlines in bankruptcy while responsible for proper security would have been doing the airlines or anyone else any favors.
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We are in a very different situation now than then ... this is part of the problem with government scope creep, it is hard to roll it back ... in 2001 we still had about 10-15 USA carriers ... now we have 3 International ones (American, United, Delta) and about half a dozen strong domestic ones (Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit, Virgin,etc) only ... with fewer airlines and a more consolidated industry we have as healthy an airline industry as we have ever had ... they also have more fee options available in the consolidated industry than they did back they (we already pay a security fee on our tickets currently) so they are doing very well financially

The airlines are also pretty good at cooperating when it is to their advantage to do so ... look at how streamlined a lot of their electronic systems are ... it is also unlikely that the airlines would have sole ownership of security ... they would most likely pay a fee to the airport authority (which are state organizations) and the airport authority would handle the security ... where the airlines could help streamline the process is by taking on the Precheck aspects (since they benefit from a known traveler even more than the airport does) ... the local airport would handle the security screening (just like they used to) since if they do it effectively they have happy customers (airlines) and happy passengers both ... it wouldn't be easy to roll back but it is hardly impossible and definitely could be done while enhancing security, not reducing it ;)
 
Ducman69 said:
And how would the ability to power on affect that? You would simply have slightly less C4 around a much smaller battery that has enough juice to power on the device for 15 mins.
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You're right, why even bother having any security at all, people will just figure out ways around it.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
So...protectionism.
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Safe air travel is a vital national interest. Something about 9/11 that you may not appreciate were the number of things that were directly affected by it well beyond air travel. A lot of private businesses were at a standstill and the airlines were in disarray. Everything is all well and good with the notion of private competitive business until it has to deal with risks that it can't. Your answer would to be just let everything fail and collapse, survival of the fittest and all. Until those ripple effects cause disruptions elsewhere. And then people demand government involvement when their wallets and wellbeing are hurt through indirect consequence.
 
heatlesssun said:
Safe air travel is a vital national interest. Something about 9/11 that you may not appreciate were the number of things that were directly affected by it well beyond air travel. A lot of private businesses were at a standstill and the airlines were in disarray. Everything is all well and good with the notion of private competitive business until it has to deal with risks that it can't. Your answer would to be just let everything fail and collapse, survival of the fittest and all. Until those ripple effects cause disruptions elsewhere. And then people demand government involvement when their wallets and wellbeing are hurt through indirect consequence.
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The TSA doesn't perform overseas security screening, they rely on the other security organizations to do that ... they could do the same with airport managed security ... they could also send out security alerts (just like they did here) to the airports when needed ;)
 
heatlesssun said:
So by privatizing the TSA all of this goes away?
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Actually, there are several airports that have replaced TSA with private contractors.

Charles M. Schulz-Sonoma County Airport (STS); Dawson Community Airport (GDV); Frank Wiley Field (MLS); Greater Rochester International (ROC); Havre City County Airport (HVR); Jackson Hole (JAC); Joe Foss Field (FSD); Kansas City International (MCI); Key West International Airport (EYW); L.M. Clayton Airport (OLF); Lewistown Municipal Airport (LWT); Roswell International Air Center (ROW); San Francisco International (SFO); Sidney Richland Regional (SDY); Tupelo Regional (TUP); Wokal Field (GGW)
 
This whole thing is stupid. Boot off a miniature flash drive and you have all that hard drive space to cram with C4. Or just check it in your baggage.

Somebody said it earlier in the thread - stop this pointless random screening and use specific profiling instead
 
pigster said:
This whole thing is stupid. Boot off a miniature flash drive and you have all that hard drive space to cram with C4. Or just check it in your baggage.
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or just bring it up from the southern border.
 
kbrickley said:
The TSA doesn't perform overseas security screening, they rely on the other security organizations to do that ... they could do the same with airport managed security ... they could also send out security alerts (just like they did here) to the airports when needed ;)
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True. And I can't imagine that private airlines would want to staff up for their own intelligence gathering and security alert processes.
 
pigster said:
Actually, there are several airports that have replaced TSA with private contractors.

Charles M. Schulz-Sonoma County Airport (STS); Dawson Community Airport (GDV); Frank Wiley Field (MLS); Greater Rochester International (ROC); Havre City County Airport (HVR); Jackson Hole (JAC); Joe Foss Field (FSD); Kansas City International (MCI); Key West International Airport (EYW); L.M. Clayton Airport (OLF); Lewistown Municipal Airport (LWT); Roswell International Air Center (ROW); San Francisco International (SFO); Sidney Richland Regional (SDY); Tupelo Regional (TUP); Wokal Field (GGW)
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These are private contractors under the TSA though aren't they? The airlines aren't responsible for them.
 
If it does not power on, then its a bomb and you are a terrorist! that's how they see it.
 
heatlesssun said:
And some are going to hijack, blow up and weaponize planes. Unless you can guarantee that this will NEVER happen, then yes, statists are gonna state.
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There is no Liberty with this mindset. You cannot prevent all things. People DIE in free nations, it happens. Blood is the price we pay to be free.
 
Spire3660 said:
There is no Liberty with this mindset. You cannot prevent all things. People DIE in free nations, it happens. Blood is the price we pay to be free.
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It's easy to say this in the abstract or when other people are doing the dying. However, a free society also requires a good deal of stability. Where on Earth are there high levels of terrorism and/or violence and freedom? While violence is often used to obtain freedom, freedom does not flourish in that same environment.
 
I say we have 2 planes for every flight, one with standard TSA checkpoints and one with no security at all. I wonder which line some of you would choose.
 
McFry said:
I say we have 2 planes for every flight, one with standard TSA checkpoints and one with no security at all. I wonder which line some of you would choose.
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We already pay for airport security through taxes and special ticketing fees ... why wouldn't we want to make sure we are getting the maximum bang for our buck (no pun intended) ... TSA Precheck was a great idea and change but it took a long time to implement ... I generally feel safer overseas since the airport security in some airports has almost military precision (in some cases literally) ... I suspect that these days we have far more risk for terrorism by cargo than by passenger ... I would rather see efficient 3rd parties take over the passenger screening through partnership with the government, airlines, and airports and I would like to see the government focus more effort on air cargo security instead (and also sea cargo ... the great ignored threat) :cool:
 
nutzo said:
Might work except, that they also believe is perfectly ok to lie to infidels.

How about we give a pass to anyone who has a US Passport, is not on the do-not-fly list, and hasn't visited any of the terrorist countries?
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I hope that's some kind of US joke and not how you perceive the middle east.
 
Anyone flown as of late?
Be sure to get to the airport 3 hours early for your free prostate exam, with current prices at the doctor its cheaper to fly to Europe and get checked out by security than pay out of pocket for your exam!
 
You know why terrorist havent tried smuggling explosives in a cellphone/laptop yet? Because the shit aint as easy as you people think.

"Derp, just fabricate internal bootable thumb drive to run a live cd and replace the real HD with a bomb!"

"Hurrr, intricately pack C4 around battery leaving only enough juice to run for 15 minutes@@"

You are an idiot if you dont think terrorists are/have been looking long and hard at electronics to smuggle shit in. It is the most logical place to put anything, and is the one thing that gets absolutely zero scrutiny whatsoever. Cmon guys, this is supposed to be a tech forum, how are you so clueless? Put away your rage and try to be objective here, this is the one good idea to come from TSA in a long time.

Shoe bombs? Belt buckle knives? Toothpaste mixers? All of that shit was kids play. From the very day they implemented this procedures I always harked about how easily I could put something in my laptop. It has all the necessary internal complexity to pass right through a scanner without the dumb schmuck on the end having any idea what he's looking at, and all they have to do is hit a power button to make sure the whole thing isnt a prop. Yes, you CAN fake it, but that isnt a reason to do nothing at all, jesus.
 
SGA76 said:
Anyone flown as of late?
Be sure to get to the airport 3 hours early for your free prostate exam, with current prices at the doctor its cheaper to fly to Europe and get checked out by security than pay out of pocket for your exam!
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Yeah I just flew to Jamaica. Go to the airport 45 minutes early like I always do, waited in line at terminal for about 10 minutes before boarding. Same thing coming back home.

Warm-Cup-of-STFU.jpg
 
SGA76 said:
Anyone flown as of late?
Be sure to get to the airport 3 hours early for your free prostate exam, with current prices at the doctor its cheaper to fly to Europe and get checked out by security than pay out of pocket for your exam!
Click to expand...

Although it makes a good joke passengers make most of their own difficulties in the screening line ... we have banned liquids for 10 years now but I still see the occasional person with a bottle of water ... granted, some people may not fly very often but I have seen some folks that are downright ignorant of policies we have had for a decade

Precheck has definitely helped the security process though ... you don't remove your shoes, you don't take anything out of your bag, and you go through a metal detector instead of a body scanner ... since I got it as part of my Global Entry Trusted Traveler application it was worth every penny :cool:
 
Kust after sept 11th, I recall it was standard to ask people through checkpoints to turn on their computers in front of TSA agents. I think it became too cumbersome with how many more people were carrying laptops, tablets, etc. to ask everyone to power on all devices.

I find it hard to believe that an x-ray image of a properly-functioning laptop and a dummy shell carrying a bomb/bomb components are not easily distinguishable. Moreover, if it is a dummy device, how easy would it not be to have a functioning screen and even an OS bootup video that can play on demand, and still have anything you want in the rest of the chassis?
 
kbrickley said:
Although it makes a good joke passengers make most of their own difficulties in the screening line ... we have banned liquids for 10 years now but I still see the occasional person with a bottle of water ... granted, some people may not fly very often but I have seen some folks that are downright ignorant of policies we have had for a decade
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Sometimes you just forget. I know I'm not supposed to have bottles, but sometimes I forget. Though they have bins for you to throw it in. A couple of times I have used my hand luggage bag as a travel bag for travelling around a country and so it's not packed for a flight, it's packed for general day to day stuff and I'll forget that I moved some of my sharp pointy objects from my big bag to my hand luggage bag and forgot to move them back.

One time flying either in to or out of India I was wearing cargo pants and had a pair of scissors and a knife in my pocked that I had totally forgotten about until the dude frisked me, lol. It was before 9/11 and he was just like "why do you have these?" and I went red "oh crap, I forgot to put them in my other bag" and he just gave them back to me and I kept going, lol.
 
beowulf7 said:
Yet another reason people hate flying. :mad:
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Yeah, they hate it so much that passenger numbers are at record highs ... only so many ways to travel thousands or tens of thousands of miles quickly ... flying is still the only game in town :cool:
 
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