Carmack on the future of PC/Console developement*8/8/08*

[Shinryu]

Saw this coming, unfortunately pc games are too easy to pirate, generally are buggy and the average consumer does not like that, and to end it off, the newest windows OS is garbage imo.

DX10 is a microsoft technology, and programming for consoles is different for PC's, the graphics on them will continue to get better with time unlike the PC where you have to buy new hardware.

Though I personally think good games get bought, problem is ID and good games tend to be foreign from each other and people deem there games pirate worthy.

 

[dark_reign]

Doom 3 did not do PC gaming any favors.

There has been several closely related works that have been very important (rtcw, cod, etc), but nothing coming directly from id has in any way shaped PC gaming in the last ten years.

Doom 3 helped sell a lot of new video cards, but the game itself was kind of meh. I thought Quake 4 had a better SP game, but Raven Software know how to make a good game.

I'd have to agree with you about id software, but they've been more successful selling their game engine licenses, which I assume is where the bulk of their money comes from. I thought Carmack had mentioned a few years ago that he was moving on from building game engines unless id Tech 5 is his final one.

 

[phide]

Doom 3 did not do PC gaming any favors.

Actually, Doom 3 pretty much shaped the directions NVIDIA took with NV40, with their UltraShadow technology and NV40's ability to push twice the number of Z/depth pixels per clock cycle. NVIDIA was even bold enough to declare that the 6800 series was "made for Doom 3". What other game has had a similar impact on the direction of graphics hardware?

Let's not forget that that id is pretty much the only developer still working with OpenGL, which is, and always has been, a very positive thing for PC gaming.

..nothing coming directly from id has in any way shaped PC gaming in the last ten years.

Then what has? What game released in the last ten years has shaped PC gaming in any substantial way?

And, please, don't say World of Warcraft.

 

[Litfod]

DX10 is a microsoft technology, and programming for consoles is different for PC's, the graphics on them will continue to get better with time unlike the PC where you have to buy new hardware.

I don't really understand that. I know developers will learn to squeeze more out of a given console architecture over time, but there's no reason why that wouldn't also be true (and it probably is true) for PCs as well. The difference is you'll be waiting longer for the next-gen consoles, and by then even the latest-and-greatest current-gen console games will look old-fashioned and primitive compared with contemporary PC games.

Well they would, except that the PC, as the "ginger step-child" platform, now only advances in step with the consoles. Hardly anyone is even trying to push the limits any more because the easy money is in developing for the lowest common denominator (which is never the PC), and releasing on as many formats as possible.

 

[keakdasneak]

WOW this guy is awsome!

 

[Chombo]

personally, im not too upset as ID has failed to make a decent/memorable pc game in recent history. the things they make feel to me - like console ports regardless. flame away, but just my 2 cents.

nonetheless, ID reverting to a console based market would be a crusher for the PC market in many different ways, and for this reason - it is a bother to me.

I definitely agree with that. I really haven't been amazed by anything they have done in a long while.

The worst thing to happen for gamers was for gaming to become popular. Like the music and movie industries before it, the gaming industry is a victim of its own success. Games are no longer just made by a bunch of guys doing stuff they love, business interests now rule the day. This is the downside of capitalism and it happens to every industry, eventually. We'll still see original games from smaller and indy developers, but the "golden age" of PC gaming is over.

Absolutely. Once the lowest common denominator discovered what PC gamers had for years it was all downhill. The problem is that now companies can churn out Kung Fu Panda the game and have it sell well, because the audience doesn't know any better. Console games can be buggy with crappy frame rates but no one is the wiser.

Yeah thats the hardware side of things, but without the AAA titles why would anyone buy new video cards? If people aren't buying new video cards then how can Nvidia and ATI make a profit?

If thats the case, and the GPU companies need AAA games to survive, then maybe they should start their own game studios.

Actually, Doom 3 pretty much shaped the directions NVIDIA took with NV40, with their UltraShadow technology and NV40's ability to push twice the number of Z/depth pixels per clock cycle. NVIDIA was even bold enough to declare that the 6800 series was "made for Doom 3". What other game has had a similar impact on the direction of graphics hardware?

Let's not forget that that id is pretty much the only developer still working with OpenGL, which is, and always has been, a very positive thing for PC gaming.


Then what has? What game released in the last ten years has shaped PC gaming in any substantial way?

And, please, don't say World of Warcraft.

I thought Far Cry was more influential than Doom 3 was.

 

[bonsai]

And, please, don't say World of Warcraft.

If think World of Warcraft hasn't profoundly affected PC gaming you're blind.

 

[phide]

I thought Far Cry was more influential than Doom 3 was.

In what way? What changed from the pre-Far Cry area to the post-Far Cry era?

If think World of Warcraft hasn't profoundly affected PC gaming you're blind.

WoW's had a major effect on the modern MMORPG, I'll admit that (because other current MMORPGs seem to all be clones of WoW). But has it affected PC gaming in general? Has it had an impact on the "movement"?

Honestly, I think the last game to really profoundly change the face of PC gaming was the original Doom, and it's not a "because id made it" thing, but because it represented a significant step in the technology of PC games in addition to being such a phenomenal worldwide success. If it wasn't Doom, it would have been something else.

There are plenty of other games I consider to be essential to any PC gamer, but so few have really managed to change the face of PC gaming or have really been able to faithfully represent what PC gaming is all about.

 

[Master Blaster]

^ Very much agreed, phide. You cannot explain what Doom (Quake as well) did for PC gaming if you didn’t get to enjoy that time. It definitely change the face of gaming and spring-boarded the PC to a power player status. I think for reasons like this people are getting upset, particularly in the PC world. It's seems that id, and their PC counters part devs, are getting less respect than deserved - and we're weary about the move from strictly PC to cross development projects. I know I don’t want my favorite dev teams tooling around with something I hold to the standard, and I’m sure others agree…but what can you do?

 

[Chombo]

In what way? What changed from the pre-Far Cry area to the post-Far Cry era?

I would have to say large open ended areas with sandbox style gameplay.

 

[Michaelius]

I think it doesn't matter in the long perspective we are going into direction of upgradable gaming devices where you can swap hdd for bigger and plug better GPU with full keybord /mouse/gamepad support which will be called playstation 6 or xbox 1440 in like 10 or 20 years.

 

[Gorankar]

I think it doesn't matter in the long perspective we are going into direction of upgradable gaming devices where you can swap hdd for bigger and plug better GPU with full keybord /mouse/gamepad support which will be called playstation 6 or xbox 1440 in like 10 or 20 years.

Wouldn't that just be a pc then, a proprietary pc with forced upgrades? If consoles get to that point, it will be consoles as we currently know them, that die. The primary benefit of a console system is the fact that they are standard pieces of equipment with very little variation between one another in a given generation. Start swapping cpu/gpu and you loose that. That would also screw up the perceived price advantage consoles have over that generations service life.

I'm of the opinion that "console on a pcie card" would become common, b4 consoles start getting upgrades to cpu/gpu.

 

[Nostrovia]

I would have to say large open ended areas with sandbox style gameplay.

exactly... i've had diehard console friends who played Far Cry on the PC and couldn't look at a many console games the same afterwards.. even their versions of far cry. It just wasn't the same to them.

Far Cry made me appreciate the freedom it had.. and other games have came along since then and done the same.... oblivion, crysis.



I just read an article on gamespot (shudders) that in europe there are 22million ps2 gamers and 21million pc gamers... both of which far exceed the 360/ps3 users of 4.8 and 4.9million. how can anyone really say pc gaming is dead?

 

[phide]

Far Cry made me appreciate the freedom it had.. and other games have came along since then and done the same.... oblivion, crysis.

Oblivion's large open-ended world was pretty much just a shadow in comparison to a game Bethesda released ten years earlier. Daggerfall is probably the ultimate example of player freedom. Hell, even Morrowind was grander in depth and scale than Oblivion.

I suppose Far Cry was really the first game to mix semi-tactical first person arcade-style shooting in a largely non-linear fashion in open environments, but other games before it have offered a pretty similar experience. Ghost Recon, for instance, is at least equal to Far Cry in terms of player freedom, but it's obviously a very different kind of shooter.

 

[H-street]

Oblivion's large open-ended world was pretty much just a shadow in comparison to a game Bethesda released ten years earlier. Daggerfall is probably the ultimate example of player freedom. Hell, even Morrowind was grander in depth and scale than Oblivion.

I suppose Far Cry was really the first game to mix semi-tactical first person arcade-style shooting in a largely non-linear fashion in open environments, but other games before it have offered a pretty similar experience. Ghost Recon, for instance, is at least equal to Far Cry in terms of player freedom, but it's obviously a very different kind of shooter.

i was ctually going to say Operation flashpoint probably was the first real open map , tactical shooter..

infact you look at farcry/crysis and operation flashpoint and its similar in the fact that they are both open maps on an island..

only flashpoint came out in 2001..

 

[Shinryu]

I don't really understand that. I know developers will learn to squeeze more out of a given console architecture over time, but there's no reason why that wouldn't also be true (and it probably is true) for PCs as well. The difference is you'll be waiting longer for the next-gen consoles, and by then even the latest-and-greatest current-gen console games will look old-fashioned and primitive compared with contemporary PC games.

Well they would, except that the PC, as the "ginger step-child" platform, now only advances in step with the consoles. Hardly anyone is even trying to push the limits any more because the easy money is in developing for the lowest common denominator (which is never the PC), and releasing on as many formats as possible.

Well yes you are right about PC's being able to mature just like a console, but creating patches and drivers cost money and time unlike with a console you make it and then you sell it, and most of the time (aside from a few companies) no patches will be needed to have a good experiance.

Pushing graphics is a difficult field and is very costly, not only that, but once a company does achieve it you will find that the majority of consumers cannot even play the game comfortably. As you said its all about money but really and truly all PC gaming does is cater the enthusiast and there is not enough money to be made in it.

 

[Chombo]

Oblivion's large open-ended world was pretty much just a shadow in comparison to a game Bethesda released ten years earlier. Daggerfall is probably the ultimate example of player freedom. Hell, even Morrowind was grander in depth and scale than Oblivion.

I suppose Far Cry was really the first game to mix semi-tactical first person arcade-style shooting in a largely non-linear fashion in open environments, but other games before it have offered a pretty similar experience. Ghost Recon, for instance, is at least equal to Far Cry in terms of player freedom, but it's obviously a very different kind of shooter.

I suggested Far Cry because it really brought that style of gaming to the forefront. Ghost Recon pioneered it since you could attempt any objectives in any order from any direction.

 

[damonposey]

The most felt impact from WoW is the fact that it keeps millions of people from wanting to spend their time on any other PC game.

 

[defiant007]

To be honest, it's becoming very clear to me that the PC Gaming community is what's going to kill PC Gaming. It's going to kill it dead. You have all these kids whose sense of entitlement allows them to download games that they don't think are good, which leads to developers abandoning the platform for the platforms with higher sales numbers (consoles) which leads to more kids rationalizing their piracy by stating that the game wasn't worth the money in the first place. Well, no shit it was a crappy game, because all the good developers bailed because of you.

And how is that any different to back in the days of the commodore 64, amiga, spectrum, floppy disks, cd's, etc. Piracy back then was just as prevalent as it is now, and was just as easy.

Its funny how you see people parroting the same PR propaganda from developers who do nothing but whine about how no one bought their shit games. Ohhh noes.....it was t4h pir8z who didn't buy our shitty port of resident evil 20!

Fact 1: consoles have gained mainstream acceptance and accordingly have a wider audience, it is a fallacy to compare sales on consoles to sales on PC.

Fact 2: there are still lots of opportunities to make lots of money from the PC market. EA in its last quarter generated revenue from PC sales in excess of sales on the xbox 360.

Fact 3: all of ID's recent games have been mediocre at best, is it any surprise that they now feel the need to jump on the console bandwagon?

 

[phide]

i was ctually going to say Operation flashpoint probably was the first real open map , tactical shooter..

Yeah, but OFP and Far Cry are two entirely different shooters. One is religiously realistic, while the other is very much an arcade-style shooter. Ghost Recon is less open-ended, but also less realistic (yet also just as tactical as Far Cry, I'd say).

Fact 3: all of ID's recent games have been mediocre at best, is it any surprise that they now feel the need to jump on the console bandwagon?

Mediocre, maybe, but they still seem to sell extremely well.

id's games, post Wolf 3D, have always had a presence in the console realm anyway. The only thing really new about this whole deal is how the games are developed (internally) and when the console versions are released (simultaneously). The original Doom, for instance, eventually ended up hitting the SNES, PlayStation, Gameboy Advance and the X360 via Live Arcade.

 

[bonsai]

Daggerfall is probably the ultimate example of player freedom.

Daggerfall is probably the ultimate example of how NOT to do player freedom. Randomly generated landscapes, towns, and dungeons that were just boring, cookie cutter molds of each other led to a very generic, repetitive experience. The player freedom at first was impressive until you realized that you've been in the same buggy and repetitive dungeon 20 times. The hand generated content of later games although smaller in scale, was multitudes better for storytelling, immersion, and gameplay.

Hell, even Morrowind was grander in depth and scale than Oblivion.

Scale, maybe. Depth no.

The bigger picture being that changes in market involve mass acceptance of a new idea. Pioneers are rarely recognized. Once an idea reaches maturity and is more appealing to a wider audience, is generally when mass acceptance takes hold. Hence World of Warcraft, Oblivion, FarCry, WarCraft3, etc.

 

[Nostrovia]

i was ctually going to say Operation flashpoint probably was the first real open map , tactical shooter..

infact you look at farcry/crysis and operation flashpoint and its similar in the fact that they are both open maps on an island..

only flashpoint came out in 2001..

I can't believe I forgot about Operation Flashpoint... That game was amazing. For that time period how many games set you into battle in an enviroment like that, you could hope in a heli and fly anywhere... walk from one side to the other..etc... I gotta play that again sometime before Flashpoint 2.

I was never fortunate to play daggerfall, for the longest time i really wasn't into rpg's or many fantasy games, it took Morrowind to really get me into it... i played diablo alot but only diablo in way of rpgs

 

[bonsai]

Wrong thread.