Calibrating without an OSD?

T

Tephnos

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
489
Hey all,

Deliberating about buying a Hazro HZ27WC, as it's much cheaper than the A version. However, it doesn't have an OSD, and there is only an option to control the backlight.

If I were to buy an i1D2 and calibrate the monitor, would the lack of an OSD hamper results, or does it not matter?

Thanks.
 
The hazros are factory calibrated, and according to multiple review sites they are nealy perfect out of the box. All you need to do is turn down the brightness. I wouldn't bother with a colorimeter, TFT central ended up with lower contrast after profiling, which is noticeable vs reducing the all ready low delta e values.
 
NCX said:
The hazros are factory calibrated, and according to multiple review sites they are nealy perfect out of the box. All you need to do is turn down the brightness. I wouldn't bother with a colorimeter, TFT central ended up with lower contrast after profiling, which is noticeable vs reducing the all ready low delta e values.
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Well imo, they aren't very well calibrated at all. The Lagom black level test shows that it is horrible and ruined my first one for me, which I returned. It was then suggested that I buy a calibrator and attempt to fix it.

It's not just me, a lot of people on the OCUK forums report the same thing.
 
You may be right about the calibration, but how did the Lagom test ruin it? I'm seriously curious.

And what was wrong with the monitor in regards to that test?

Spyder3 these days may be a better bet. The I1D2 has a lot of inter-unit variance from a test run by "Dry Creek Photo" web site.
 
10e said:
You may be right about the calibration, but how did the Lagom test ruin it? I'm really seriously curious.

And what was wrong with the monitor in regards to that test?
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Nono, I meant that the lagom test showed that the monitor failed in showing the lowest black levels, essentially making dark scenes in games and movies way too dark, essentially black crush. 1-4 was impossible to tell the difference from the background.

On my U23 I can see every square clearly. No amount of fiddling with software fixed it, so wondered if calibration without an OSD would fix it.

Again, not a one off thing.
 
LC155 said:
Hey all,

Deliberating about buying a Hazro HZ27WC, as it's much cheaper than the A version. However, it doesn't have an OSD, and there is only an option to control the backlight.

If I were to buy an i1D2 and calibrate the monitor, would the lack of an OSD hamper results, or does it not matter?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

"Factory calibration" is questionable even for most expensive NECs and Eizos.
So no one should be that naive to believe in Hazro "quality".

OSD would give you more ways (more chances) to reach the desirable result.
But as you know, all Apple monitors have no OSD. They can be successfully calibrated though.
Spyders are not reliable in reading dark tones.
My Spider3 is calibrating a shelf somewhere in a closet.
 
albovin said:
"Factory calibration" is questionable even for most expensive NECs and Eizos.
So no one should be that naive to believe in Hazro "quality".

OSD would give you more ways (more chances) to reach the desirable result.
But as you know, all Apple monitors have no OSD. They can be successfully calibrated though.
Spyders are not reliable in reading dark tones.
My Spider3 is calibrating a shelf somewhere in a closet.
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Ah, that makes me feel better then.

I have heard the Spyder3 isn't that good. So, an I1D2 it is?
 
LC155 said:
Ah, that makes me feel better then.

I have heard the Spyder3 isn't that good. So, an I1D2 it is?
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Not quite that simple.

Here's the article I was looking for:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html

I1D2 actually scored worse than the Spyder3 according to the article and showed a lot of variance from unit-to-unit.

When bought in a package like Spectraview II for NEC, or certain manufacturer custom screens it's quite good, but not for other types of displays apparently.

For example I have an NEC tuned I1D2 from SpectraView II that I love. I have a "not tuned" I1D2 that came from Lacie with their Blue Eye Pro package, and it is collecting dust because it doesn't seem very accurate to me.

I guess the question is, which is cheaper in your area, and how much do you think you need it?
 
LC155 said:
Ah, that makes me feel better then.

I have heard the Spyder3 isn't that good. So, an I1D2 it is?
Click to expand...

I don't know what your target is.
I1D2 has been industry's workhorse for years.
NEC does not hesitate to include it in their SV calibration kit.
I am not an insurance company but I can tell you that I have used it to test and calibrate many monitors (pairing I1D2 with 3 different calibration software). The results were identical to those received by "professional reviewers" with super-pooper-mega-spectrophotometers.
You can look at one of those funny discussions where people buy cheapest consumer class monitors and then begin to look for fleas in I1D2, 3% color gamut undercoverage, etc. Very funny.
Well, if you target serious pro work (get me right, it almost never happens in this forum) you may have reasons to doubt and look at something more sophisticated (and expensive).


Another thing is.... Hazro. Hopefully it's not the case here but...
Let's say, you cannot get a good result calibrating NEC 90-series or PA series (everyone gets). Most likely a probe is to blame.
Hazro cannot be used as a reference, so if calibration is not satisfactory we don't know if it's the probe or the Hazro.
Good luck.
 
LC155 said:
.
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Your purchased the glossy version right? Are you sure you aren't mistaking glare for black crush? Turn off the lights, do you still have problems with Lagom? Most of the OCUK complaints I read were directed towards the dust in the first batch and uniformity issues, to bad yours have color issues.

I thought the i1D2 was not supposed to be used with LED backlit displays. Not sure about the Spyder 3.

You could get the new x-rite colormunkie or i1 display pro if you don't care about getting detailed calibration reports. Spectracal and Chromapure sell the OEM versions which will work with their own software.
 
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NCX said:
Your purchased the glossy version right? Are you sure you aren't mistaking glare for black crush? Turn off the lights, do you still have problems with Lagom? Most of the OCUK complaints I read were directed towards the dust in the first batch and uniformity issues, to bad yours have color issues.

I thought the i1D2 was not supposed to be used with LED backlit displays. Not sure about the Spyder 3.

You could get the new x-rite colormunkie or i1 display pro if you don't care about getting detailed calibration reports. Spectracal and Chromapure sell the OEM versions which will work with their own software.
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Both are glossy, if you're meaning the glass and non glass version. Think imac with it's pull out glass cover.

Yeah, those were early complaints. I first noticed the black crush on mine and quizzed about it on the forum, to which more people noticed it. It's definitely not glare as I tried it in my room in the pitch black of 3am and it was still the same.

I'm not quite sure about that. I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to colormeters. I did noticed the D2 was discontinued however, and X-rite recommended the pro version instead. Although I read that the only difference between the colourmunki and the pro is that the pro gives more detailed results, which I'm not sure is worth the extra £40 or so since I'm not a professional photographer. :p
 
I think regardless of either I1D2 or Spyder3 either should help fix the black crush problem, but only on the desktop without help. They create an ICM profile with gamma/brightness changes for each of the three primaries.

You'll need Monitor Calibration wizard 1.0 or PowerStrip to have these changes forced into the graphics card's look up table to have them enacted in games though, so keep that in mind.

Good luck.
 
I have heard the Spyder3 isn't that good. So, an I1D2 it is?
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The problem of these probes are the gelatine filters of TI which must be very carefully implemented and suffer from durability problems (=> particularly: Intrusion of air moisture through often bad encapsulation). Unless we are speaking of selected probes (like the OEM EOD2 of NEC* or the Chroma5 which also features a much better chassis) the inter instrument agreement was quite poor.

But newer Spyder3 don't use these organic filters anymore. The results with the new anorganic solution are noticeable better now. The EOD2 is replaced with the EOD3 (EyeOne DisplayPro) with an optical system and anorganic interference filters (with a better native characteristic). Currently the most promising consumer colorimeter (with an extensive spectral correction handling).

Best regards

Denis

*
in combination with SV II additional corrections are carried out for WCG-CCFL spectra (which differ considerably from the CCFL spectrum used for the initial correction)
 
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10e said:
I think regardless of either I1D2 or Spyder3 either should help fix the black crush problem, but only on the desktop without help. They create an ICM profile with gamma/brightness changes for each of the three primaries.

You'll need Monitor Calibration wizard 1.0 or PowerStrip to have these changes forced into the graphics card's look up table to have them enacted in games though, so keep that in mind.

Good luck.
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Hi.

So if you were explaining this to a noob, would you recommend the Colormunki seeing as that's cheaper than the i2 (and available). Is buying from X-rite themselves a bad idea (NCX mentioned something about OEMs). In addition, what calibration software should I use?

Sorry for being such a well, noob. Gotta start somewhere though! :p
 
As far as I know only the i1D Pro OEM versions which work with Chroma Pure and Spectra Cal are sold through those companies. All of the retail versions only work with X-Rites bundled software, which is useless if you want to know the actual colortemp/contrast/gamma values, though it still does its job when it comes to profiling.

I would save some $ and get the Colormunki if you were going to get something from X-Rite
 
NCX said:
As far as I know only the i1D Pro OEM versions which work with Chroma Pure and Spectra Cal are sold through those companies. All of the retail versions only work with X-Rites bundled software, which is useless if you want to know the actual colortemp/contrast/gamma values, though it still does its job when it comes to profiling.

I would save some $ and get the Colormunki if you were going to get something from X-Rite
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Hey.

I like saving some '£' :p Could I use the Colormunki/i1D2 with the Lacie BlueEye Pro software?

Edit: Just read that the i1D2 sucks with LED monitors. Guess my hand is tied. Is there any way to buy an OEM version of the pro/colormunki WITHOUT being forced with software on top of it? Wouldn't lacie blueye pro work with it then?
 
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LC155 said:
Hi.

So if you were explaining this to a noob, would you recommend the Colormunki seeing as that's cheaper than the i2 (and available). Is buying from X-rite themselves a bad idea (NCX mentioned something about OEMs). In addition, what calibration software should I use?

Sorry for being such a well, noob. Gotta start somewhere though! :p
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Colormunki is a bit of an enigma to me. The one "full" Colormunki photo spectrophotometer tested in that review I posted earlier didn't fare too well in their tests.

It may have been isolated, but it seems like upon further research, the actual ColorMunki display is a different unit altogether, and closer to the retail version of the upcoming I1D3.

I have Lacie and it doesn't support anything other than the I1D2 (which they call "Blue Eye") or the DTP94.

My fave is BasicColor from www.basiccolor.de. They have a 14-day trial version that is fully function and supports Colormunki, Spyder 2/3, I1D2, Squid etc...... the largest number of colorimeters/spectrophotometers.

But here's the problem: Both I1D2 and Spyder3 are not recommended for use with W-LED back-lit monitors. They are better than nothing, but not great.

Most recommend the X-Rite DTP94.

Hmmm, but I took the liberty on trucking over to www.overclockers.co.uk forums and checking on what the problem was for you, and I found this image you posted as being indicative of the problem:

[url]http://media.minecraftforum.net/content/images/2011/07/new18mob.png[/url]

It's very difficult, if nearly impossible for me to see the separation between the block peoples' heads and backgrounds on both my (calibrated) screens.

So I don't know if calibration will necessarily help you here. It may be more fruitful to mess with video card contrast and brightness settings to get the image you seek.
 
10e said:
Colormunki is a bit of an enigma to me. The one "full" Colormunki photo spectrophotometer tested in that review I posted earlier didn't fare too well in their tests.

It may have been isolated, but it seems like upon further research, the actual ColorMunki display is a different unit altogether, and closer to the retail version of the upcoming I1D3.

I have Lacie and it doesn't support anything other than the I1D2 (which they call "Blue Eye") or the DTP94.

My fave is BasicColor from www.basiccolor.de. They have a 14-day trial version that is fully function and supports Colormunki, Spyder 2/3, I1D2, Squid etc...... the largest number of colorimeters/spectrophotometers.

But here's the problem: Both I1D2 and Spyder3 are not recommended for use with W-LED back-lit monitors. They are better than nothing, but not great.

Most recommend the X-Rite DTP94.

Hmmm, but I took the liberty on trucking over to www.overclockers.co.uk forums and checking on what the problem was for you, and I found this image you posted as being indicative of the problem:

[URL]http://media.minecraftforum.net/content/images/2011/07/new18mob.png[/url]

It's very difficult, if nearly impossible for me to see the separation between the block peoples' heads and backgrounds on both my (calibrated) screens.

So I don't know if calibration will necessarily help you here. It may be more fruitful to mess with video card contrast and brightness settings to get the image you seek.
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Hi,

I used that image as a first reference, but there was clearly a problem when I checked out the black level in lagom, in which there was none with my U23. I'd like to fix that as best I can. :p

Seeing as the Hazro is LED backlit, your most recommended calibrator would be the DTP-94? Where can I get one of these?

If you look at another thread on the OCUK forums, one guy posted a big long post about how all the old calibrators miss the white point with LEDs, and that he doesn't even know if the newer models work any better in that regard yet. However, the DTP-94 is still accurate?

Also, I did mess with the settings but could get no better.
 
From what I'm reading on Northlight images, the ColorMunki Display is supposed to be W-LED compatible. It seems to be similar hardware to the I1D3 and hopefully it isn't software locked to X-rite software, but since it has its own software included in the package, you may as well give it a go.

See if you can grab it from a vendor who allows returns if it doesn't make you happy.
 
If you look at another thread on the OCUK forums, one guy posted a big long post about how all the old calibrators miss the white point with LEDs, and that he doesn't even know if the newer models work any better in that regard yet.
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The filter solution of the new X-Rite EOD3 probes matches the 2 degree CIE standard observer better than previous consumer probes, although it is no perfect match. It features an extensive correction handling including 5 (instead of only 2 like for most former probes) predefined ones.

However, the DTP-94 is still accurate?
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It is a good probe but its anorganic filter solution is relatively far away from the mentioned characteristic. The absolute error can be quite high when the actual display spectrum deviates from the internal correction (CRT and LCD with CCFL backlight (72% NTSC)). In combination with iColor Display3 appropriate corrections are carried out on software side for WCG-CCFL (92-102% NTSC) and some White LED (72% NTSC) screens.

Best regards

Denis
 
10e said:
From what I'm reading on Northlight images, the ColorMunki Display is supposed to be W-LED compatible. It seems to be similar hardware to the I1D3 and hopefully it isn't software locked to X-rite software, but since it has its own software included in the package, you may as well give it a go.

See if you can grab it from a vendor who allows returns if it doesn't make you happy.
Click to expand...

Hi,

On the ocuk forums I got this post today:

ok well in my opinion i think you might be best off with an i1 D2. From my tests of the HZ27WC i found the i1 D2 performed quite well on this screen (several units including an off the shelf ver, LaCie BEP device and NEC device). White point was between 100 - 300k out so nothing massive to worry about at all.

since you arent calibrating loads of different screens of different types, a device like that would be fine. Also no need to worry too much about inter-instrument agreement as thats only a real concern when youre trying to use many different samples on many different screens and they dont end up matching.

good device, compatible with a lot of software as ive said. maybe contact LaCie for their BEP software, or try the BasICColor trial for 14-days if you want reporting and more thorough info than X-rites packages.
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So it seems a deviation of 100-300k at most is not that bad. It's been quite a road but my final choices seem to be i1D2 or the Colourmunki. I know the latter is not software locked, but is the BEP software updated to the point where it is compatible? Hoping to avoid faffing around if I get disappointed. Although I'm not sure of the whole colormunki being a spectrophotmeter thing, if that makes a difference compared to the i1d2 being a colorimeter.

Edit: Oh. Different versions. One is a colorimeter. Oops.
 
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Blue Eye Pro doesn't yet support anything other than DTP94 or I1D2, so no I1D3 or ColorMunki Display.

The included software should be fine at getting your screen to D65 color temperature (as long as the colorimeter is accurate at reading W-LED white points) and an sRGB gamma/gradation should help bring the darker shades up to some extent.

If the ColorMunki Display properly reads W-LED white points it's still probably a better solution, I just can't speak to it, because I've never used one and reviews, while being fairly good, may not be totally accurate. My opinion is why spend money on something that could be obsolete as of right now.

Caveat emptor ;)
 
10e said:
Blue Eye Pro doesn't yet support anything other than DTP94 or I1D2, so no I1D3 or ColorMunki Display.

The included software should be fine at getting your screen to D65 color temperature (as long as the colorimeter is accurate at reading W-LED white points) and an sRGB gamma/gradation should help bring the darker shades up to some extent.

If the ColorMunki Display properly reads W-LED white points it's still probably a better solution, I just can't speak to it, because I've never used one and reviews, while being fairly good, may not be totally accurate. My opinion is why spend money on something that could be obsolete as of right now.

Caveat emptor ;)
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Ah, I see. Someone mentioned (can't remember where) that they spotted drivers for the newest meters by x-rite in the guts of the latest BEP update, was hopeful but guess not. :p

And I suppose it can, seeing as it was designed to be used with LEDS, surely it'd be better than something built when LEDs didn't exist.

The northlight images review seems pretty good, as well.

So, seeing as the colourmunki seemingly is not software locked, I could buy it for much cheaper than an i1D2 (and I mean a LOT), use some freeware software that is currently compatible (if any such currently exist) and be content until BEP is updated, or something to that effect? If so, I think I will try out the colormunki first, since cheaper is always better :D

I see what you mean with the futureproofing, though.

This stuff does my head in sometimes. :D

Edit: Colormunki is locked. Only the OEM versions supplied to the vendors are unlocked, and they have to be locked to the software vendor you buy it from.

For ****'s sake X-rite.
 
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Sorry for the double post, but:

I found the i1D 2 for £123. Very cheap. The colormunki is around the same price, BUT I can confirm it IS software locked.

One may be older, but I can view reports and actually know what the hell the meter is doing. One is newer, but I'm basically told to sit down and let it do it's thing, then use whatever it throws out by the other.

Would you still recommend the colormunki?
 
I would still get the colormunki.

I use the I1D2 and X-Rites profiling software has never let me down except when it comes to providing the calibration data.
 
NCX said:
I would still get the colormunki.

I use the I1D2 and X-Rites profiling software has never let me down except when it comes to providing the calibration data.
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Huh, guess I'm listening to the 'calibration snobs' too much then. :p

As a matter of interest, are you thinking of upgrading?
 
Yes, I want to upgrade and take advantage of X-Rites 40$ trade in program. The problem is the OEM (300$) versions are only avaliable in the US so I would have to pay heavy duty fees when shipping to Canada.

I could order the retail version for 290$ from a Canadian retailer including shipping+tax and keep my current device as well or get one from Chromapure (Chroma>Callman Software IMO) with their bundled software+pay duty fees for 440$.
 
Only the OEM versions supplied to the vendors are unlocked, and they have to be locked to the software vendor you buy it from.
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There are possibilities for the vendors to support the Retail EOD3 but there are some constraints. Most extensive software calibrations suites (like iColor Display 3 oder BasICColors solution) will presumably go this way. We just have to wait a little.

So it seems a deviation of 100-300k at most is not that bad
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The CCT in kelvin says little.It doesn't describe one color but a range of colors. There can be very big deviations between two samples with the same CCT. The absolute error depends on the deviation of the current spectrum from the spectral normal the probe was corrected against (as mentioned: The EOD3 has at least 5 predefined corrections) and the native filter characteristic. Regarding the EOD2 we have also often big deviations between the probes. Our measurements with the more stable DTP94 resulted, despite the spectral differences between White-LED and CCFL backlights (72% NTSC) and its comparatively large deviation from the standard observer, in often quite feasible results - in contrast to displays with WCG-CCFL and RGB-LED backlight (they emit a much "sharper" spectrum).

However: I would really recommend to go for the EOD3. Maybe wait a little to see if the retail version is supported in important software calibration solutions.

Best regards

Denis
 
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Sailor_Moon said:
There are possibilities for the vendors to support the Retail EOD3 but there are some constraints. Most extensive software calibrations suites (like iColor Display 3 oder BasICColors solution) will presumably go this way. We just have to wait a little.

Best regards

Denis
Click to expand...

So wait, you're saying that a retail Colormunki/EOD3 could eventually be unlocked with some calibration suites in due time?

NCX said:
Yes, I want to upgrade and take advantage of X-Rites 40$ trade in program. The problem is the OEM (300$) versions are only avaliable in the US so I would have to pay heavy duty fees when shipping to Canada.

I could order the retail version for 290$ from a Canadian retailer including shipping+tax and keep my current device as well or get one from Chromapure (Chroma>Callman Software IMO) with their bundled software+pay duty fees for 440$.
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Why are you after the OEM EOD3 so much when you said the software with the Colormunki/EOD3 is adequate? Is it for when you review and such that you need stat reporting?
 
So wait, you're saying that a retail Colormunki/EOD3 could eventually be unlocked with some calibration suites in due time?
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At least the EOD3 (I should add that the X-Rite software is not that bad and for many users absolute sufficient). The Colormunki most probably not. I can't say anything about the actual implementation stage. We just have to wait.

Best regards

Denis
 
The rebate ends at the end of Sept so I'm still unsure. Not a fan of BasICColor except for profile validation, it does not give gamma measurements and I don't think it does a very good job of profiling compared to X-Rites software. I always end up with much lower than the target brightness and poor contrast with BC.
 
NCX said:
The rebate ends at the end of Sept so I'm still unsure. Not a fan of BasICColor except for profile validation, it does not give gamma measurements and I don't think it does a very good job of profiling compared to X-Rites software. I always end up with much lower than the target brightness and poor contrast with BC.
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Ah, hopefully BEP takes it up then.
 
Hi, forgot one small question.

Pretty much all set on the EOD3, but does the X-rite software allow me to do TVs as well? Thought I might as well as do my C580 too.
 
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