BWM and Cherry picking

[zero2dash]

that's like saying cheating the tax system is the best way to encourage changes in tax laws

And yet this would work extremely fast. Your are comparing apples and condoms. One has established, ever changing rules(for loopholes) and enforcement, the other does not. You made my case for me but fail to comprehend it.

Speaking of....
How about "having unprotected sex is the best way to encourage abstinence/raise awareness of STDs/discourage abortion".
Yeah, that's a good thought process to have. "Feel free to screw whoever you want. If someone gets pregnant or catches AIDS, oh well...better luck next time."

And thus are not valid.

So if there's no law about something, you're free to do it regardless?
If there's no law against killing someone, are you going to go off a dozen people?
How about robbing banks? If you could do it, would you?

Seriously? You need a law to tell you what not to do as opposed to having common sense and/or a lick of ethics?

 

[rflcptr]

If you guys care so exclusively about the science, what reason do you have to join a team?

I will be the first to admit I joined BOINC projects for the science and I joined the [H] BOINC team for the points. Joining a team doesn't improve the science contribution.

The important thing is that BWM (or whoever) is contributing to the science, and not cheating it. Getting more PPD through "debatable means," as long as the work isn't fraudulent, isn't going to break the science.

 

[Xilikon]

I got a reply from Pr. vijay Pande about that. Let me sum without going into too much details (I'll let him post what need to be said) :

-In the long term, they will plan to implement a measure to favor quick return of workunits, maybe a bonus, maybe a penalty for delaying returns/not returning assigned units in a specified timeframe.

-About the current issue with BWM and others doing this kind of behavior, they will look into this and will surely take measures.

That along with the Dr. Kasson post condemning AS manipulations to avoid certain work units speaks volume about the stance.

KWH, may I suggest you stop trying to be BWM's advocate here because at this rate, you will end up with a unneeded flamewar with us. We do believe in doing what's the right way to fold even if we sometime complain about unfair things (like the low 670x points value compared to other units). If BWM fold for us and have admitted doing this behavior, I would be the first to warn the PG and make sure his points get zeroed out. We have a old folder getting his points zeroed out due to a complaint and we're not talking about the last year points but the points folded with uniprocessor workunits only to the amount of 12 millions.

The rules might not be clearly written to address every case but there are general guidelines being written which dictact what we can or cannot do. Manipulating the AS to get what WU we waqnt is against their guideline.

 

[APOLLO]

Simple and you know what it is: PPD
Lack of rules updates and penalties makes all this possible. If you all want to bitch at someone, cast your eyes at PG.

PPD is not sufficient reason. You need more than this to back your position. You cannot prop your defense of improper conduct solely with PPD.

If that is what it takes for PG to act, I all for it

So, in brief what you are offering as a solution to this problem is negative reinforcement??

 

[KWH]

You're arguments are just pathetic. Yes, the morality applies, because it's the SPIRIT OF THE PROJECT. And since you don't seem to get what that means, here's it even more simply: FOLDING EVERY WU IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BECAUSE THE WUS ARE THERE TO BE WORKED. You're hurting the project. Period. Delude yourself all you want; the rest of us fold for more than points.

Pathetic? Hey, I'm not telling people to F off. You seem to be the deluded one thinking musings = rules when the rules contradict you. Hurting the project? I don't even fold for 33.

You obviously have serious blinder problems, if you read my posts, I don't condone these actions either but they are within the rules as they now stand. Period.

 

[KWH]

"KWH, may I suggest you stop trying to be BWM's advocate here "

Yet, another high horse rider that obviously has NOT read my posts. I do NOT know them, have never talked to them and probably never will. It's the idea of someone finding loopholes within the rules and taking advantage on that fact; then being ostracized for it. Is this your brand of justice?

Where is your flame war protection for others that have spoken out against the lack or rules/enforcement? I failed to see it.

Why do you keep defending an obviously broken system when it can, in fact, be fixed and all doubt eliminated? The rules CAN be clearly written to address these problems, but why hasn't it been? That's the question you all should be asking.

"PPD is not sufficient reason. You need more than this to back your position. You cannot prop your defense of improper conduct solely with PPD."

This is simply amazing, the lack of understanding on your part. I can only assume it is your choice to ignore the obvious.

Once again: The system is BROKEN, it needs to be fixed. Fix it! If you are playing within the rules, no matter how much you dislike said rules, it is still within the rules.
It's really that simple.

 

[djBon2112]

If you guys care so exclusively about the science, what reason do you have to join a team?

Wow, some people just really don't get this at all do you

I joined team 33 because I'm a member of [H], and because it's easy to type "33" in at the setup screen. I don't even use the DC FS/T forums, the only part of team 33 where I can see points matter.

If tomorrow, F@H decided that there would be NO MORE POINTS, how would all of you react? Would you sell your SR2s? Move on to a different project? I wouldn't. And I also wouldn't cherry-pick WUs, for the exact same reason. If you don't see that reason, there's no hope in trying to convince you otherwise; I just hope they outright ban this soon.

I'm done with this thread, it's worse than the Soapbox.

EDITed so I don't re-subscribe:

I have an idea for those folding here. Post new rules to be complied with before anyone can fold for team H? Put what you see as illegal actions in team H's EULA. Problem for team H is now solved.

Ok:
1. Follow the F@H guidelines.
2. Follow what the PG leaders and profs say.

Bam, problems solved.

 

[APOLLO]

"PPD is not sufficient reason. You need more than this to back your position. You cannot prop your defense of improper conduct solely with PPD."

This is simply amazing, the lack of understanding on your part. I can only assume it is your choice to ignore the obvious.

And that is what pray tell?

Once again: The system is BROKEN, it needs to be fixed. Fix it! If you are playing within the rules, no matter how much you dislike said rules, it is still within the rules.
It's really that simple.

No it is not, for if it were that simple then the matter would have been easily rectified with a points system overhaul. It is not that simple and Evil explained it to me a long time ago. The beta testers know this more intimately than you and I.

Where the heck is Evil...?

 

[KWH]

I have an idea for those folding here. Post new rules to be complied with before anyone can fold for team H? Put what you see as illegal actions in team H's EULA. Problem for team H is now solved.

 

[KWH]

And that is what pray tell?

No it is not, for if it were then the matter would have been easily rectified with a points system overhaul. It is not that simple and Evil explained it to me a long time ago. The beta testers know this more intimately than you and I.

Where the heck is Evil...?

It IS that simple. Updating the rules will make it easier to punish those not in compliance. How hard is it to type up new rules and post?

 

[jebo_4jc]

The rules are simple, whatever Team 33 elite group thinks is againts the "spirit" of the community goes.

no, our arguments are based upon the stance of the leaders of this project, which has been clearly stated.

If you guys care so exclusively about the science, what reason do you have to join a team?

for fun.

, I don't condone these actions either but they are within the rules as they now stand. Period.

correct, however not within the best interest of the project from a scientific perspective, period. Since we are here principally for the science, that element is what inspires our reaction.

then being ostracized for it. Is this your brand of justice?

to be clear, BWM ostracized themselves in a reaction to the community speaking out against their practices, not vice versa.

Why do you keep defending an obviously broken system when it can, in fact, be fixed and all doubt eliminated? The rules CAN be clearly written to address these problems, but why hasn't it been? That's the question you all should be asking.

Once again: The system is BROKEN, it needs to be fixed. Fix it! If you are playing within the rules, no matter how much you dislike said rules, it is still within the rules.
It's really that simple.

your philosophy appears to be a revolutionary one. You would rather injure the system to inspire change than advocate for change through more peaceful mehods. Both approaches have their place, but when scientific progress is at stake, the better approach is to advocate for the change by way of communication with Pande group directly rather than scientifically injure the project by exploiting loopholes.

Trust me, stick around here long enough and you will see no small amount of criticism of some of PG's methods, policies, etc. Ultimately, however, we would rather improve the project than harm it.

 

[zero2dash]

I have an idea for those folding here. Post new rules to be complied with before anyone can fold for team H? Put what you see as illegal actions in team H's EULA. Problem for team H is now solved.

Which solves absolutely nothing. The problem still exists because a certain few want to skate the boundaries of wrong or right instead of clearly trudging one way or the other. So bad, in fact, that when they get called out for it and ostracized, they decide they're going to "make up their own team" so no one else can bitch at them. Baby much? "Waah. Waah. I'm too important to be told what I'm doing is wrong, waah my boxes are custom and you can all go to hell, waah". Oh but it gets even better, since originally they bitched about how "[H] is getting help from other teams" (as Chimp Challenge payback) and "the whole team aspect is over with" and "there shouldn't be teams". Hypocrite much? Why not fold for Default then? Teams and points aren't important, eh "B&C Folding"?

What they're doing may not be a part of an "official law list", but it is an unwritten law. They've been folding for long enough to know that they shouldn't do this, but they continue to do so. They don't "condone" it, but they continue to do it. Basically they're saying "we know it's wrong, but we don't care". I hope they get zeroed out and IP banned and they can sit on their fancy custom Sun OS boxes and use them for solitaire and rot for the rest of their lives.

 

[KWH]

"to be clear, BWM ostracized themselves in a reaction to the community speaking out against their practices, not vice versa."

BWM isn't the only ones to have that happen.

"your philosophy appears to be a revolutionary one. You would rather injure the system to inspire change than advocate for change through more peaceful mehods. Both approaches have their place, but when scientific progress is at stake, the better approach is to advocate for the change by way of communication with Pande group directly rather than scientifically injure the project by exploiting loopholes. "

So, fixing a broken system is revolutionary? I'm sorry but that's absurd. The project is ALREADY injured, can't you see that?

Improving the project? Wouldn't rules changes and just punishment do just that? Or, are you ones that don't want to rock the boat, only slowly sink with it? Apathy never wins in the long run.

 

[APOLLO]

It IS that simple. Updating the rules will make it easier to punish those not in compliance. How hard is it to type up new rules and post?

For one thing, rules about WU blocking and deletion do not require a written regulatory overview. Why would it? For every new issue that arises then we would need to constantly revise and rewrite the rules of conduct for this DC project...? I'm convinced your answer to this would be yes, but not everyone adheres to this concept of overlegislating the project that you and few others do. WU blocking/deletion is harmful to the science and research, it deters progress and creates obstacles. The project organizers who have authority stated so. THAT IS SUFFICIENT.

 

[rflcptr]

I joined team 33 because I'm a member of [H], and because it's easy to type "33" in at the setup screen.

for fun.

Then points are meaningless to you, so drop 33 participation in your new clients.

No? Then points do matter.

 

[Mtnduey]

maybe it's just the geek in me but I'd love to know what all they had to do to get Solaris to run bigadv and just what sort of kernel param's they changed to make it optimized for bigadv.

as for the cherry picking, *shrug* as long as they're not dumping cores I'm fine. While I'd like them to just take whatever WU's are available, if it's not violating the rules then it's not an issue to me.

I just want my Linux bigadv back damnit!

 

[KWH]

"Which solves absolutely nothing."

Wrong, if the official [H] EULA is broken, they can be tossed off the team. The teams moral police can then monitor for violations.

"but it is an unwritten law"

Sorry, but these just don't count. No punishment for infractions, no determent to stay within the rules.

"Basically they're saying "we know it's wrong, but we don't care""

I love this. If that is their position, then the debate is over and those against BWM have lost. BWM has won.
I would rather try to update the system than slide into peaceful abyss.

 

[Tobit]

maybe it's just the geek in me but I'd love to know what all they had to do to get Solaris to run bigadv and just what sort of kernel param's they changed to make it optimized for bigadv.

99.9% sure they are running the Windows client via WINE. I'd like to know their kernel tweaks as well but none if it is as rocket science as they let on to be.

 

[rflcptr]

What if:
- Bigadv counted for only 1/2 credit of 6701.
- There were people who worked Bigadv exclusively, like now.

Would there be an outcry?

99.9% sure they are running the Windows client via WINE. I'd like to know their kernel tweaks as well but none if it is as rocket science as they let on to be.

Why aren't they just targeting Windows, without the riff-raff?

 

[jebo_4jc]

So, fixing a broken system is revolutionary? I'm sorry but that's absurd. The project is ALREADY injured, can't you see that?

Improving the project? Wouldn't rules changes and just punishment do just that? Or, are you ones that don't want to rock the boat, only slowly sink with it? Apathy never wins in the long run.

no, you missed the point. I agree that PG should somehow fix the system by addressing this issue on their end, however I strongly disagree that harming the science being done is the correct way to pursue such a fix.

You and I should instead contact PG directly with our thoughts on this matter, and start an intellectual discussion. Folding is a scientific project, and behavior such as this hurts the project. WU manipulation is an injury to science, not a street crime that needs to be codified in a statute.

 

[KWH]

99.9% sure they are running the Windows client via WINE. I'd like to know their kernel tweaks as well but none if it is as rocket science as they let on to be.

"99.9% sure they are running the Windows client via WINE. I'd like to know their kernel tweaks but none if it is as rocket science as they let on to be."

I'd like to know more as well so changes could be suggested to PG.
You are probably right, it's not as hard as they let on just knowing what you have/what to do to get desired results.

 

[zero2dash]

Wrong, if the official [H] EULA is broken, they can be tossed off the team. The teams moral police can then monitor for violations.

Which still means and solves nothing. Do bwm fold for Team 33?

Let's revisit your flawed logic. (re: apples and condoms)
A security guard protects 1 bank. If he protects 1 bank does that mean that no other banks, anywhere, will ever get robbed because he's such a hardass at First National Bank of Anytown, USA?

How many teams are there that fold again? We put our foot down on illegal stuff. EVGA put their foot down. Hoo boy, we are making a dent, are we not? Clearly not, because "B&C Folding" now exists.

 

[zero2dash]

Would there be an outcry?

Perhaps you need to read through the "Why we DC" thread.
You seem to be bringing up points like that's the only reason anyone does any of this. How about doing some reading? You might surprise yourself.

 

[KWH]

"You and I should instead contact PG directly with our thoughts on this matter, and start an intellectual discussion."

This sounds like a good starting point to me. Although from other posts I ahve read, they are not good communicators. That is really sad.

I want to commend (almost) everyone here for a decent discussion on this matter. It has gone far better than I thought it would.

 

[KWH]

Which still means and solves nothing. Do bwm fold for Team 33?

Let's revisit your flawed logic. (re: apples and condoms)
A security guard protects 1 bank. If he protects 1 bank does that mean that no other banks, anywhere, will ever get robbed because he's such a hardass at First National Bank of Anytown, USA?

How many teams are there that fold again? We put our foot down on illegal stuff. EVGA put their foot down. Hoo boy, we are making a dent, are we not? Clearly not, because "B&C Folding" now exists.

That has no bearing. This will only serve to keep team 33 clean, nothing more. Progress has to start somewhere, turning blind eyes won't fix anything.

 

[rflcptr]

WU manipulation is an injury to science, not a street crime that needs to be codified in a statute.

I still disagree. You can't group "WU manipulation" and "WU selection" into the same category. As long as X person is still contributing non-fraudulent WUs, the science is growing. If those selected WUs dry up, there's always more to do.

Perhaps you need to read through the "Why we DC" thread.
You seem to be bringing up points like that's the only reason anyone does any of this. How about doing some reading? You might surprise yourself.

If points did not exist, this thread would not exist. If points did not exist, there would be no question (or thread, as you pointed out!) about "why we DC."

How about doing some thinking? You might surprise yourself.

 

[Xilikon]

Wrong, if the official [H] EULA is broken, they can be tossed off the team. The teams moral police can then monitor for violations.

The problem here is that we have no power to toss anyone off of a team. Only the PG have this power so writing the rules on [H] would be pointless. The reaction of the [H]orde toward those who cheat the system would speak volumes about our stance.

Sorry, but these just don't count. No punishment for infractions, no determent to stay within the rules.

The PG have zeroed out people who broke unwritten rules. Here's a few examples where there is no exact written rule :

-Someone inserted a F@H client in a game crack and made the installation process hidden so nobody won't know they are folding for someone's else. Even if they didn't modify or reverse engineer F@H, they just used some method to install the files.

-Someone decided to install F@H on all the computers in a company. After he left, a new IT technician found out about that and warned the boss. The boss filed a complaint to the PG.

-Some people have issues with some computers which made so they are downloading thousands of workunits. They blocked those IP from ever accessing the servers as a retaliation measure until they prove they fixed the problem.

That's why it's easier to write guidelines of acceptable folding pratices and those who disregard this, even if there is no specific written rule, would get punished in the end, either directly or indirectly.

With this, I will stop feeding a troll and continue folding within the guidelines. I hope you will finally understand the consequences of not following the proper guidelines for folding one day.

 

[jebo_4jc]

It's true that PG deserves a lot of blame for a lot of the problems with FAH. I almost wonder if the project has become bigger than they can handle with their given resources. That would appear to be the case, judging by many of the server outages and WU shortages.

 

[zero2dash]

That has no bearing. This will only serve to keep team 33 clean, nothing more. Progress has to start somewhere, turning blind eyes won't fix anything.

Is this your method of discussion?
Talk people in circles and hope they get dizzy?

You offer the advice that to fix the problem, [H] revise our TOS regarding Folding. People break the rules, we boot them off the team.

I counter 'that will solve nothing'.

Now according to you it has no bearing, will only keep 33 clean.

Duh? It still solves nothing.

 

[zero2dash]

If points did not exist, this thread would not exist. If points did not exist, there would be no question (or thread, as you pointed out!) about "why we DC."

How about doing some thinking? You might surprise yourself.

Ah, you're right. Why we DC thread has nothing but discussion on point mongering.

No one joins because of cancer histories or anything like that.

Clearly you have no idea what goes behind the project or motivation to contribute to the project other than points, therefore - feel free to go click on another subforum and don't come back until you do some more research and quit with your assumptions.

 

[KWH]

The problem here is that we have no power to toss anyone off of a team. Only the PG have this power so writing the rules on [H] would be pointless. The reaction of the [H]orde toward those who cheat the system would speak volumes about our stance.




The PG have zeroed out people who broke unwritten rules. Here's a few examples where there is no exact written rule :

-Someone inserted a F@H client in a game crack and made the installation process hidden so nobody won't know they are folding for someone's else. Even if they didn't modify or reverse engineer F@H, they just used some method to install the files.

-Someone decided to install F@H on all the computers in a company. After he left, a new IT technician found out about that and warned the boss. The boss filed a complaint to the PG.

-Some people have issues with some computers which made so they are downloading thousands of workunits. They blocked those IP from ever accessing the servers as a retaliation measure until they prove they fixed the problem.

That's why it's easier to write guidelines of acceptable folding pratices and those who disregard this, even if there is no specific written rule, would get punished in the end, either directly or indirectly.

With this, I will stop feeding a troll and continue folding within the guidelines. I hope you will finally understand the consequences of not following the proper guidelines for folding one day.

And all those broke F@H EULA, which clearly states not to do these things. You posted the obvious.

Way to go, calling me a troll when you are not open to anything but your own opinions. How is the air up on that high horse?
Maybe YOU will finally figure out what it is I and many others would like only after I said it time and time again.
Debates are good, petty name calling is for children.

 

[Tobit]

No one joins because of cancer histories or anything like that.

I joined for the beer, tamales, and babes.

 

[KWH]

Is this your method of discussion?
Talk people in circles and hope they get dizzy?

You offer the advice that to fix the problem, [H] revise our TOS regarding Folding. People break the rules, we boot them off the team.

I counter 'that will solve nothing'.

Now according to you it has no bearing, will only keep 33 clean.

Duh? It still solves nothing.

Ahhh.....can't find a cup to hold your watery argument so you resort to condescension. Talking in circles? Not hardly but repeating myself because of the blinders that are on , yes.
I don't fold for any team and yet I am trying to initiate changes that will help all of YOU. I get the flak but that's ok, I can take it. I am trying, you are just...........there.

 

[nitrobass24]

You can defend whatever side of the issue you feel like but at the end of the day its the wrong thing to do regardless if there is a rule/law/suggestion or not. If you feel like there should be rules or controls in place to prevent and/or detect this kind of behavior then there are better means to accomplish this. If you cant think of one contact someone on the team who is part of the beta program (Xilikon, Tobit, myself, im sure there are others) and we will communicate it to F@H management.

Furthermore, if I hear of anyone on [H] doing this I will guarantee you I will contact Kasson and Dr. Pande and have your points removed, even if it hurts [H] total points or your are the #1 producer on our team. At the end of the day this kind of behavior is wrong and will not be tolerated here.

This is all i have to say on this topic and will not be responding to any other arguments.

 

[rflcptr]

Ah, you're right. Why we DC thread has nothing but discussion on point mongering.

a) F@H contributes to disease research.
b) Participating in F@H contributes to disease research.
c) Creating a thread to dissect this wouldn't be necessary if there were no points.
d) Face it, we all joined team [H] with the concern of points. Otherwise, forum [H] would suffice.

No one joins because of cancer histories or anything like that.

I never said otherwise.

Clearly you have no idea what goes behind the project or motivation to contribute to the project other than points, therefore - feel free to go click on another subforum and don't come back until you do some more research and quit with your assumptions.

Or maybe I won't fuck off? I've made no assumptions.

 

[jebo_4jc]

I still disagree. You can't group "WU manipulation" and "WU selection" into the same category. As long as X person is still contributing non-fraudulent WUs, the science is growing.

not necessarily. if the benefit to the bigadv project is matched by a detriment to the 6701 project, it is a neutral transaction. They might as well just quit.

If points did not exist, this thread would not exist.

that is completely false. Most of us here are advocating for the proper pursuit of science. If somebody were harming the project in another way that had a net reduction in PPD for that person, we would still speak out in force. It has been done before.

 

[KWH]

"but at the end of the day its the wrong thing to do regardless if there is a rule/law/suggestion or not."

Now, you want to talk about circles? What is wrong with this statement?
Does anyone see it? So, you have the power to remove points (even if they are not breaking the rules) but not write a rules change? Something is very wrong here.

EDIT:
"Furthermore, if I hear of anyone on [H] doing this I will guarantee you I will contact Kasson and Dr. Pande and have your points removed, even if it hurts [H] total points or your are the #1 producer on our team. At the end of the day this kind of behavior is wrong and will not be tolerated here."

Since you are in their favor, why not talk about updating the rules instead of threatening points deductions. This is the kind of arrogance that hurts the project.

 

[djBon2112]

Then points are meaningless to you, so drop 33 participation in your new clients.

No? Then points do matter.

Wow, way to make a false dichotomy there. I fold "for" team 33 because I like helping you guys out, since you obviously DO care about points, enough to jeopardize the science for them. I'm more than happy to go to another team (HWC) or make my own, if that's what you wish. I wonder how many other users would follow me

 

[rflcptr]

not necessarily. if the benefit to the bigadv project is matched by a detriment to the 6701 project, it is a neutral transaction. They might as well just quit.

What part of "a contribution is better than no contribution" don't you get? Their exclusive Bigadv participation is not a detriment to 6701.

 

[amdgamer]

I joined for the beer, tamales, and babes.

There sure seems to be a lot of #1 and #2 here, but we appear to have been pretty unsuccessful with #3. From an active folders standpoint, we have Elleden but this sure is a large group of guys here. On top of that, 90% of you guys are hardcore geeks too.

I also cannot understand the obsession this team has with tamales, as that is one risky affair when combined with certain alcholic beverages.

I joined to do my part because one would hope that furthering the knowledge we have of proteins folding and misfolding will one day lead to knowledge that will help develop a cure.

gee thanks for letting me fold the WU's you don't want. Assholes.

This thread has really gone wierd. I again echo this sentiment whether written or unwritten rules are being broken here. In the end, that type of behaviour only hurts people like 99.999% of us who are doing the right think. It hurts the spirit of the project.