Building New Sandy Bridge Gaming Platform - Help Needed

[bbross]

Hi guys,

After having read countless posts here as well as on other enthusiast forums for building a new rig, I finally decided to initiate a thread asking for help. There are indeed a number of subject on which I could not make up my mind only by reading.

As I have been most impressed with the conviviality in here and with the quality of the advice that you guys give, I have decided to ask for your lights.

For the record, I live in Belgium, Europe. The prices in EUR are very similar to those in $US, i.e. a GPU costing $200 in the US costs 200 EUR where I live (unfortunately, we cannot take advantage of the exchange rate). However, We do not have "rebates policies" as aggressive as you do. On the contrary, a part announced at 200 EUR is all taxes inclusive, but excludes shipping costs.

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc

For the most part, gaming. I'd say 80-85% of the time. Maybe some photoshop. Occasionnally, some light office work. I don't do massive video encoding. I don't watch movies on my desktop computer.

2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?

I want to keep the cost of my new rig below 1500 EUR. The lower the better (something like 1300 would be great), but as there are some corners that I wont want to round... i.e. I want excellent acoustic and thermal performance, without sacrificing raw power (top of the line CPU, GPU). Including taxes and shipping

3) Where do you live?

Belgium, Europe

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.

Enclosure, Mainboard, CPU, RAM, GPU, Storage. I also want to add third party cooling for CPU and GPU for silence and low temps and a discrete sound card and headphones for magnificent sound experience.

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.

I will continue to use the following : PSU Seasonic X-750, 80 Gb X-25M Postville SSD.

6) Will you be overclocking?

I will seriously consider overclocking if it brings noticeable gaming performance.

7) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?

I am currently gaming at 24", 1920x1200. Might move to 1080p in the near future.

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?

Now. End of april at the latest.

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video? etc.

The usual SATA 6Gb/s, USB3.0. Crossfire / SLI support might be good for future-proofing though for now I am more in a "fastest affordable single GPU" mindset. Some O/C capability is welcome (if impact on gaming experience). Firewire (800?) is a plus.

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?

Might need one

11) Current build proposition :

Chosen parts are in green

230 € - Silverstone Fortress FT02B
148 € - MSI P67A-GD55 (Révision B3)
193 € - Intel Core i5 2500K
51 € - Prolimatech Megahalems rev.B
21 € - Noctua NF-P12
90 € - G.Skill Kit Extreme3 2 x 4 Go PC10600 Ripjaws X CAS7
330 € - Sapphire Radeon HD 6970 2Go + Free Sega Shogun 2
76 € - Thermalright Shaman
49 € - Samsung Spinpoint F3 S-ATA - 1 To - 32 Mo
166 € - Asus Xonar Essence ST
192 € - Denon AH-D2000
35 € - TrendNet TEW-623PI

Total = 1581 €

 

[Dangman]

Motherboard wise, do note that the P67A-GD55 doesn't support SLI but supports Crossfire. Only the P67A-GD65 supports SLI and Crossfire. Up to you if SLI capability is worth the extra $20. I do recommend either MSI mobo BTW.

Are there any other manufacturers for the HD 6970 available? I ask because that Sapphire card only has a 2 year warranty. Gigabyte, Asus, and MSI often have cards not much more than a Sapphire card with three year warranties.

Stick with your current Intel SSD. Do not use that OCZ Vertex 2 SSD since its real world performance is significantly lower than stated. And the recent horror stories about OCZ's support and the fact that OCZ recently changed their OCZ Vertex 2 SSDs to be even slower.

Go for the OS on the SSD and the programs on the Samsung F3 1TB drive. The Samsung drive is relatively quiet. The VRaptor drives aren't worth it. Games will probably run faster off a SSD but generally that's very cost-prohibitive. But having having the OS on the SSD and game installs on a fast hard drive would still be faster than just a regular hard drive install.

HSF wise, the Coolermaster Hyper 212+ would be a better choice from both a price to performance ration and noise level:
$30 - Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus HSF for LGA 1366 and LGA 1156

 

[bbross]

Thanks from you help Danny.

Mainboard
It seems from MSI's official website that P67A-GD55 does support SLI in additio to Crossfire though, whereas the G45 seems to only support Crossfire.
I've narrowed it down to those 2 mainboards. Don't know which one to chose in the end, though (isn't the G45 a bit low-end in its build ?)

GPU
There is an MSI HD6970 for 340 EUR, but its without any game included. Other card are approx. 30 EUR more expensive.
What do you think of GTX570 vs HD6970 at same price ? I like the bundled game of the HD6970 better, but the nVidia card comes with PhysX.

SSD/HDD
I take your word and will only buy a 30 EUR-is F4 Spinpoint 320 Gb 7200x HDD.

CPU Heatsink
Seems from what I read that the H212+ provide excellent value (bang for the buck). However, it seems a bit noisy with stock fan, which implies buying a new one (Thermalright TY-140 seems to be a must-have atm). And it seems to only performs on par with a Prolimatech Super Mega + 1 fan when equiped with 2 fans.
So it goes about sth like this :
H212+ + 2 TY-140 = 55 EUR
Prolimatech Armageddon + 1 TY-140 = 67 EUR
Prolimatech Super Mega + 1 TY-140 = 83 EUR
Of course, it all come down to how much cooling power i need for O/C an i5 2500K... And I have no idea.
What about other heatsinks like the Venomous X RT, the MUX-120 Black, etc ? I don't see major difference amongst these models :-/

RAM
I read in a post here somewhere that MSI's mainboard had troubles with CAS < 9 RAM... Is it confirmed ? Should i stick with CAS9 PC10600 sticks ? Is it worth going to CAS 9 PC12800 stuff ? I have noticed that MSI "officially" supports only up to 1333 Mhz ram on its boards. That's weird.

GPU Cooler
I've read here and there that a cooler such as the Shaman might not be optimal in a 90° rotated setup. Is is confirmed ? There is too few information regarding this across the Web. I am not able to sort it all out (heat pipe orientation, heat pipe technology, etc).

Sound Setup
What do you guys advise ?
1/ closed vs open headphones
2/ Titanium HD vs Asus Essence STX vs Xense bundle ?
I can't make up my mind on this one.


I really appreciate the inputs you all guys give across these forums. I am kicking myself for not having subscribed earlier

PS - I edited my first post to keep an updated status of the build right there.

 

[tiraides]

The K-series Sandy Bridge processors have unlocked CPU multipliers that virtually eliminate the need for RAM faster than DDR3 1333. However, I haven't read much on MSI's issues with CL9 -- which would be bad, if true, as the JEDEC standard for DDR3 RAM is CL9.

Very few games use PhysX so it's not a must-have feature. The GTX 570 is generally recommended if you use Linux (as Nvidia provides better Linux drivers than AMD/ATI), run a program (like the Adobe CS5 suite) that utilizes Nvidia's CUDA drivers, or plan on running a 3D monitor setup (Nvidia has more mature 3D drivers).

Ideally, you want a sound card that performs as well when you play music as it does in gaming. Given my relative lack of knowledge of today's sound cards, I can't really recommend one. However, a closed headphone set allows you to hear sounds better (especially when paired with a good sound card or amplifier) than most open headphones.

Go with the Hyper 212 Plus, as you won't have to spend so much on the heatsink. Noise notwithstanding, you can obtain a decent overclock of about 4.5GHz (IIRC) with the i5-2500k and the Hyper 212 Plus (with stock fan).

 

[herfalerf]

Thanks from you help Danny.

Sound Setup
What do you guys advise ?
1/ closed vs open headphones
2/ Titanium HD vs Asus Essence STX vs Xense bundle ?
I can't make up my mind on this one.

i guess ill focus on the part of your build no one has touched yet.

closed vs. open headphones - expect closed headphones to be more isolating, expect them to have more bass, expect the sound to be "smaller." expect open headphones to have a large sound stage (excellent for gaming) expect less bass.

two great choices would be the Audiotechnica ATH AD-700 open ear or the ATH A-700 closed. both are excellent for gaming, extremely comfortable and at around $100 are a little cheaper than what you were looking at. these are audiophile quality at a great price. i personally use the ad-700 based on recommendations from users on these boards and i have been nothing but thrilled with them.

as for your sound card i cant really help you, i know you have listed some nice ones. id like to throw something else out there for you to check out though, the Nuforce uDAC. its a USB digital audio converter and headphone amp. you can get one with or without RCA and coax outputs. this would be used in place of a traditional soundcard. the great thing about it is that its portable and can be used with any PC. its designed to be used with high end headphones so i think it might be a great option for you and may save you a little bit of money.

 

[tiraides]

i guess ill focus on the part of your build no one has touched yet.

closed vs. open headphones - expect closed headphones to be more isolating, expect them to have more bass, expect the sound to be "smaller." expect open headphones to have a large sound stage (excellent for gaming) expect less bass.

Que?

The high-end Sennheiser closed headphones (595/600/650) have excellent sound reproduction, but they're designed more for audiophiles using some sort of amplifier/DAC combination to improve the sound quality than they are for gaming. Most sub-$100 (USD) headphones, regardless of whether they're open or closed, are designed for high bass output.

I'm not saying that you're totally wrong, but I am wondering how you came to that general conclusion.

 

[mesasone]

Que?

The high-end Sennheiser closed headphones (595/600/650) have excellent sound reproduction, but they're designed more for audiophiles using some sort of amplifier/DAC combination to improve the sound quality than they are for gaming. Most sub-$100 (USD) headphones, regardless of whether they're open or closed, are designed for high bass output.

I'm not saying that you're totally wrong, but I am wondering how you came to that general conclusion.

The 595 are not in the same class as the HD600/650. I think you are thinking of the HD580, which are the predessor to the HD600. In any case, all of these headphones listed are open back, and the need for an amp for these headphones is grossly over stated.

I prefer my AKG K701 over my HD600 for gaming, as they create a very spacious sound.

 

[tiraides]

You'd think that I would remember at least that -- the 595 part -- being an owner of the HD580 myself.

 

[E4g1e]

The 595 are not in the same class as the HD600/650. I think you are thinking of the HD580, which are the predessor to the HD600. In any case, all of these headphones listed are open back, and the need for an amp for these headphones is grossly over stated.

I would like to state that they do need an amp if one of the following is applicable:

1) They are too quiet at even maxed-out volume settings with a given device; OR

2) They are adequately loud, but sound a bit "veiled" and murky or shrill (one of the most noticeable symptoms of being underpowered).

 

[Dangman]

Mainboard
It seems from MSI's official website that P67A-GD55 does support SLI in additio to Crossfire though, whereas the G45 seems to only support Crossfire.
I've narrowed it down to those 2 mainboards. Don't know which one to chose in the end, though (isn't the G45 a bit low-end in its build ?)

Huh, the GD55 does support SLI. My mistake. Anyway the G45 is a tad lower-end. Just go for the GD55 if you have the cash for it.

RAM
I read in a post here somewhere that MSI's mainboard had troubles with CAS < 9 RAM... Is it confirmed ? Should i stick with CAS9 PC10600 sticks ? Is it worth going to CAS 9 PC12800 stuff ? I have noticed that MSI "officially" supports only up to 1333 Mhz ram on its boards. That's weird.

Yes stick with CAS 9 DDR3 1333 RAM rated at 1.5V. No not worth it for DDR3 1600 RAM.

 

[bbross]

Hey guys ! Thanks for all this feedback. This has given me a lot of information to process. You're feeding me with torture material, as the more options I am given, the more I hesitate and ponder.

GPU

The GTX 570 is generally recommended if you use Linux (as Nvidia provides better Linux drivers than AMD/ATI), run a program (like the Adobe CS5 suite) that utilizes Nvidia's CUDA drivers, or plan on running a 3D monitor setup (Nvidia has more mature 3D drivers).

Then what does the AMD Card has going for itself ? Eyefinity (no use for me) ? From what I read it's not even significantly more power efficient (as shown here)
A general question though: should i have enough cash, would I benefit going from 570/6970 to GTX580 @ 1920x1200 ? The card is around 100 EUR more expensive, and some reviews say it can be 20% faster on average (guru3D review IIRC).

CPU Heatsink

Go with the Hyper 212 Plus, as you won't have to spend so much on the heatsink. Noise notwithstanding, you can obtain a decent overclock of about 4.5GHz (IIRC) with the i5-2500k and the Hyper 212 Plus (with stock fan).

That's exactly the point. I didn't stress it that much in my initial post (my bad), but I am kind of a silence freak. And I know this obsession doesn't come cheap. According to this review, the CM Hyper 212 + does not perform very well with low rotation fans.

Therefore I am now thinking about taking a Prolimatech Megahalem rev B or a Prolimatech Super Mega, depending on availabilities. I'd mount it with 1x (or 2x) TY-140 fans.
Just one thing to confirm : will I be able to fit a soundcard in the first PCIe 1x with the heatsink and the fans installed ? I am not sure.

RAM

This review confirms what you say. Minor improvements from going 1333 -> 1600 Mhz. I'll try to convince myself that putting 2 plain red sticks in a black / blue environment is not that bad

GPU Cooler

Anyone has more info regarding the 90° rotated environment related issues ?

Sound Setup

I've read around many articles about those sound cards right now. I can't make up my mind as reviews and conclusion differ so much from one user/journalist to the other. What I can say again is that I'll almost only be gaming game out of that sound card. I don't need the great recording hardware that the Titanium HD has or the great music playback the Essence STX has. That's why I was eyeing at the Xense bundle package. But the PC350 headset does not seem to be very popular. From what I've read around though, you seem to be right about the quality of the ATH-AD700. It looks like they're universally praised.

id like to throw something else out there for you to check out though, the Nuforce uDAC. its a USB digital audio converter and headphone amp

Wouldn't I lose all the hardware / driver - related good stuff then ? Like Dolby Headphone or CCSM3D or whatever that acronym is.

I will keep on doing research based on your input. Thanks guys.

 

[Dangman]

Then what does the AMD Card has going for itself ? Eyefinity (no use for me) ? From what I read it's not even significantly more power efficient (as shown here)
A general question though: should i have enough cash, would I benefit going from 570/6970 to GTX580 @ 1920x1200 ? The card is around 100 EUR more expensive, and some reviews say it can be 20% faster on average (guru3D review IIRC).

The HD 6970 2GB has the better price to performance ratio than either the GTX 570 or the GTX 580. The GTX 580 isn't worth it unless you need max settings at a complete disregard for price.

CPU Heatsink
That's exactly the point. I didn't stress it that much in my initial post (my bad), but I am kind of a silence freak. And I know this obsession doesn't come cheap. According to this review, the CM Hyper 212 + does not perform very well with low rotation fans.

I think this review is a bit more reputable:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/fenrir-hyper212

IN the above review, there's only a 4C difference between the Prolimatech Megahalem and the Coolermaster Hyper 212+ when using a Nexus fan rated at 7V. In addition, it's temperature is only 48C with the fan at 7V. Not that bad at all for

 

[bbross]

I think this review is a bit more reputable:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/fenrir-hyper212

For my future readings, should I understand that HardwareCanucks is a bad / biased review site or is just not reliable ?

 

[tonytnnt]

GPU
Then what does the AMD Card has going for itself ? Eyefinity (no use for me) ? From what I read it's not even significantly more power efficient (as shown here)
A general question though: should i have enough cash, would I benefit going from 570/6970 to GTX580 @ 1920x1200 ? The card is around 100 EUR more expensive, and some reviews say it can be 20% faster on average (guru3D review IIRC).

The 6970 is generally a tad faster than the GTX 570 depending on your game. The GTX 580 is the fastest single GPU solution on the market (not counting the 6990 and GTX 590 as they're two GPUs on one board.) See this review ([H]ard|OCP's) to see how it stacks up in a few games. Other reviews show similar trends. What games are you planning to play besides Shogun 2 Total War?

 

[Dangman]

For my future readings, should I understand that HardwareCanucks is a bad / biased review site or is just not reliable ?

They're an ok site but the fact that their link has been banned here in the forums gives me pause in fully trusting them. Plus, when SPCR is a bit more trustworthy when it comes to cooling and noise tests than HardwareCanucks IMO.

 

[bbross]

I will be playing any game I can, ranging from FPS (Battlefield 3, Crysis 2), action games (Mafia II), RPGs (Dragon Age serie, Mass Effect serie, Witcher 2, Fallout New Vegas, etc.), strategy games (Civ V, EUIII, etc.).

I know I will feel frustrated if I can't max out settings in some of those games. But at the same time, if I consider the new video card as an "ad interim" card waiting for the next generation (end 2011 ?) Maybe going from a 6970 to a 580 for a 100 EUR premium is not worth it. I can't figure out how big a difference will it make in real world gaming on a 1080p setup ?

 

[Dangman]

I can't figure out how big a difference will it make in real world gaming on a 1080p setup ?

Umm, read the review that tonytnnt posted. It clearly shows the difference between the 6970 and 580 in real world gaming.

 

[bbross]

Yeah I realized I overlooked the comment of tonytnnt just after having posted. The review indeed shows very comparable results between the two cards. Except in BFBC2.

Thank you for pointing me to that review. I guess it's up to me now to decide whether the slight difference in performance (and maybe better future proofing) is worth the 100+ EUR premium.

I am now left with questions regarding the audio setup. Like mentioned in this post I am still undecided as to what to get. Maybe I should be asking this in a more specialized forum like head-fi.org.

 

[bbross]

I've kept on working on this build, and I've come up with the following list of components :

&#8364; 230 - Silverstone Fortress FT02B
&#8364; 148 - MSI P67A-GD55
&#8364; 195 - Intel Core i5 2500K
&#8364; 51 - Prolimatech Megahalems rev.b.
&#8364; 35 - Samsung Spinpoint F3 500 Go
&#8364; 76 - G.Skill Kit Extreme3 2 x 4 Go PC10600 Ripjaws X CAS9
&#8364; 76 - Thermalright Shaman
&#8364; 166 - Asus Xonar Essence ST
&#8364; 35 - TrendNet TEW-623PI (Wi-Fi N PCI Card)

Total : &#8364; 1 012

Still to be decided

Graphics :
&#8364; 330 Sapphire HD6970 vs &#8364; 480 Gainward GTX 580

Headphones :
&#8364; 200 DT770 / 600 vs &#8364; 230 Denon AH-D2000 (to be bought next month or so, cause I can get it to fit within my budget for now)

Do you see any room for improvement ? what are your thoughts ?

Thanks guys, reading this forum and posting in here have helped me a lot !

 

[tonytnnt]

I'm not familiar with those RAM modules, but with an MSI board (and all Sandy Bridge boards, but especially MSI) get DDR3 1333MHz CL9 1.5V modules. I don't have the link to the G.Skill tech support forum (I'm on my phone) but MSI is having issues with some of their faster RAM modules. There really isn't a real world difference going with anything faster than the above.

 

[bbross]

Yeah that's what they are. My bad, I wasn't being explicit enough. I've updated my previous post to show the true nature of those RAM sticks

Any other comments on the build ? Any room for cost-efficiency improvement (esp. motherboard, Wi-Fi adapter) ?

 

[mellon]

ditch the ft02 and shaman and go sli?

 

[Dangman]

Go for the 1TB version of that hard drive as it's actually a little faster. Also do note that if you don't want to void the warranty when you're using that 3rd VGA HSF, get a card from XFX or eVGA. Otherwise, stick to stock cooling. Oh and I don't recommend Sapphire unless you have a super low budget (which isn't the case here). Aim for Asus, Gigabyte, XFX, or a MSI branded card.

 

[bbross]

ditch the ft02 and shaman and go sli?

Good point. But I just can't. Totally in love with that enclosure Also, I am a bit skeptical as to bi-GPU setups. Have read too much about micro-stuttering problems, relying on drivers is not necessarily the best option and power / heat / noise consequent issues....

Go for the 1TB version of that hard drive as it's actually a little faster.

Point taken.

Also do note that if you don't want to void the warranty when you're using that 3rd VGA HSF, get a card from XFX or eVGA. Otherwise, stick to stock cooling.

Point taken. Stock cooling is not an option, as I will favor silence over everything else.

Oh and I don't recommend Sapphire unless you have a super low budget (which isn't the case here). Aim for Asus, Gigabyte, XFX, or a MSI branded card.

You say so because of the limited warranty period, or is there something else ? I've had a Sapphire 4870x2 for more than 2 years without any complaints to be had.

On a side note, I'd like the rig to be somewhat cost-efficient nonetheless. I'm not on a low budget, but I'm not overloaded either (or whatever the expression is in english )

 

[Dangman]

On a side note, I'd like the rig to be somewhat cost-efficient nonetheless. I'm not on a low budget, but I'm not overloaded either (or whatever the expression is in english )

Limited warranty and their relatively poor customer support are the reasons why I generally don't recommend Sapphire unless the budget is super low.

The expression is "overclock"

 

[tiraides]

On a side note, I'd like the rig to be somewhat cost-efficient nonetheless. I'm not on a low budget, but I'm not overloaded either (or whatever the expression is in english )

The correct term here is "loaded," but we understand. (Right, Danny? )

 

[bbross]

The correct term here is "loaded," but we understand. (Right, Danny? )

Hehe yeah that's the one !

 

[Dangman]

The correct term here is "loaded," but we understand. (Right, Danny? )

LOL!

Yup right

 

[bbross]

For the record, my final build is the following. Thanks all for your help !

230 € - Silverstone Fortress FT02B
148 € - MSI P67A-GD55 (Révision B3)
193 € - Intel Core i5 2500K
51 € - Prolimatech Megahalems rev.B
21 € - Noctua NF-P12
90 € - G.Skill Kit Extreme3 2 x 4 Go PC10600 Ripjaws X CAS7
330 € - Sapphire Radeon HD 6970 2Go + Free Sega Shogun 2
76 € - Thermalright Shaman
49 € - Samsung Spinpoint F3 S-ATA - 1 To - 32 Mo
166 € - Asus Xonar Essence ST
192 € - Denon AH-D2000
35 € - TrendNet TEW-623PI

Total = 1581 €