Build help

E

eggrock

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Messages
4,102
Sorry for another one of these but I'm seriously out of date with hardware.

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Gaming
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included? $1500 w/tax&ship
3) Where do you live? U.S., Minnesota
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. Please be very specific. req: CPU/Mobo, RAM, GPU - desired: PSU, case, HDDs, sound, optical
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model. Enermax Noisetaker 600W, 1 HDD, optical drive and sound card
6) Will you be overclocking? no
7) What size monitor do you have or plan to have? 24" 19x12 native
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC? 1-3 months
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc. stability

[edit - snipping all the crap off]

Here's my starting point

- Gaming performance
- Stability
- Quiet
- GPU - 1Gb memory, minimum

Budget, non-SLI ~$1,350

Antec P182 $150
Intel Q9550 $320
Asus P5Q $120
2 mushkin XP ASCENT DDR2 800 (2x2Gb) -- 8GB total $180
GTX 280 $450
1Tb HDD $130

I *think* my existing PSU (600W) should handle the system (18A on each 12V rail).

How are the Asus boards performing as far as stability? Are Intel branded boards still considered rock solid?
 
$180 for 8GB of RAM is a total ripoff considering that you can get 8GB of RAM for only $80 with no rebates:
G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ 2 x 2GB DDR2 800 RAM - $40

Asus mobos are performing relatively well as relatively stable. However, ditch the Asus P5Q since it has a horrible placement of the 24Pin connector that will obstruct airflow and impede cable management. Go with the Asus P5Q Pro or the Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P and GA-EP45-UD3R. All three mobos are pretty stable motherboards. Intel mobos are still rock solid.

Also, you'll need to replace that PSU as well. It is only capable of 35A on the +12V rail and that was three years ago when it launched. Considering the somewhat low quality of it and the time, that PSU may not be capable of providing 30A on the +12V rail, bare minimum for a setup like yours. I say just spend the cash for a significantly better quality PSU with room to grow:
BFG Tech BFGR800WESPSU ES-800 800W PSU - $110

In addition, $450 is a bit much for the GTX280 considering that you can get this one for $375 without rebates:
eVGA 01G-P3-1280-AR GeForce GTX 280 1GB PCI-E Video Card - $375
 
Danny Bui said:
However, ditch the Asus P5Q since it has a horrible placement of the 24Pin connector that will obstruct airflow and impede cable management. Go with the Asus P5Q Pro or the Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P and GA-EP45-UD3R. All three mobos are pretty stable motherboards. Intel mobos are still rock solid.
Click to expand...

lol - great catch. I was looking at the P5Q Premium as a reference pic and with my luck and lack of detail I probably would've overlooked that. WTF were they thinking, wow.

The memory prices are nice, nothing like saving $80 off your price estimate. Besides, 8Gb is probably overkill for this build but I can't pass up these prices.

I think the 4850x2 is a safe bet since SLI support is basically a given--I don't generally buy games on their first day out so no biggie if the drivers come late.

Considering the somewhat low quality of it and the time, that PSU may not be capable of providing 30A on the +12V rail
Click to expand...

:confused: This PSU came pretty highly recommended and it's never been pushed. No biggie buying another one since I'd like to keep the old system around though.
 
eggrock said:
:confused: This PSU came pretty highly recommended and it's never been pushed. No biggie buying another one since I'd like to keep the old system around though.
Click to expand...

It was only highly recommended since back then (assuming that you bought it 2-3 years ago), real PSU testing (using an Automated Test Equipment and oscillicope) wasn't widespread. Most, if not all, of the reviews you probably saw for it were nothing more than just paid ads.
 
hm... i had a reply, but i guess it was never posted. I agree with Danny, anyhow, lol. I hate TW's DNS. :mad:
 
Lifetime parts on the BFG PSU? Hmmm, not bad, not bad. Or a PCP&C for under $100 :eek:

Well, this was easy. Thanks!
 
posting pics is a nice thank you for us. I look forward to seeing it. FYI that pc power psu is $94.99 - $35 mir assuming u get it. So if it came through it would be under $70 shipped!!! Also 5 year warranty and 49 amps on the 12v rail.

What did you pick btw?
 
hossdaddy said:
posting pics is a nice thank you for us. I look forward to seeing it. FYI that pc power psu is $94.99 - $35 mir assuming u get it. So if it came through it would be under $70 shipped!!! Also 5 year warranty and 49 amps on the 12v rail.

What did you pick btw?
Click to expand...

For the PSU? Between BFG with a lifetime warranty and a PCP&C... Probably the cheaper of the two.

If the LGA 1336 boards come down in price drastically I'll go with the low end i7--this build is at least a month out but I don't expect to see any huge price drops in that timeframe.

GPU - The 4750x2 looks like it's easily the best bang for the buck right now, but somewhat noisy. I'd like to build some custom ducting for it. Should be interesting with the Antec case.
 
Be sure to check back here and post your list a few days before you plan to buy.
 
A fair amount of people are complaining about ATI drivers. Is that just the usual hard luck bellyaching crowd or are there (still!) problems with Crossfire?
 
eggrock said:
A fair amount of people are complaining about ATI drivers. Is that just the usual hard luck bellyaching crowd or are there (still!) problems with Crossfire?
Click to expand...

Usual hard luck bellyaching AFAIK.
 
All right, it's time to buy.

Here's where I'm at:

Mobo - Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3L $98.99 - No SLI, no 1394 and no RAID but I think this will work for gaming (no, or minimal OC) - The egg's offering a $50 MIR for Vista but it's 32-bit.

CPU - Q9550 - $319.99

RAM - Looking at 2 sets of Crucial Ballistix BL2KIT25664AA80A (4-4-4-12 @ 2.0v) $83.98

GPU - Sapphire 4850x2 (the 2x1Gb model) $329.99 ($30 MIR)

Audio X-Fi Platinum (refurb) $59.99 ordered

PSU - BFG ES-800 $139.99 ($40 MIR)

Case - Antec P182 $169.99

Vista Ultimate 64-bit $169.99 ($50 gift card)

Total: $1372.91 (plus S&H, minus MIRs)

I'll also need an HSF - I can't think of the name right now--Xigmatek?

Sound good? I can take my time ordering some of this stuff, no real rush on ordering except my impatience.
 
In addition to the fact that CL4 DDR2 memory offers no noticeable performance benefit over CL5 DDR2 RAM, I've heard that the newer versions of Crucial Ballistix RAM have some stability issues to varying degrees. Just stick with the two sets of G.Skill RAM that Danny Bui recommended earlier, but you could easily save some money by...

... Swapping out the motherboard for the Gigabyte GA-EP43-DS3L. It practically has the same features as the EP45-UD3L for a lower price.

... Going with either the Q6600 or the E8400 instead of the Q9550. Though the Q9550 is the best processor out of those three, you won't see many of its benefits while gaming, as most of today's games are largely GPU-driven. At stock speeds, in various benchmarks, the Q9550 is about 15% better (on average) than the Q6600, but it costs about $130 more. Depending on which games you play, you may not be able to tell the difference (performance-wise) between the two.

... Getting the P182 elsewhere -- specifically, from Provantage. Even with shipping added on, it costs less there than it does at NewEgg.

... Buying Vista Home Premium instead of Vista Ultimate. Personally, I don't believe that the Vista Business features or the BitLocker drive encryption are worth the price premium. (You could get an upgrade version of Vista Ultimate for $65 using the Microsoft Ultimate Steal program, but you have to be a college student with a valid .edu address.)

The CPU cooler that you are looking for is the Xigmatek HDT-S1283. Pair it with the ACK-I7751 retention bracket, which makes mounting it much easier and more secure.
 
fyi, the $50 gift card offer works with 64-bit, too, but I agree with tiraides... save your money and get Home Premium instead, unless the price difference is negligible to you.
 
Thanks. Price makes a differece; I'd like to work a UPS into this purchase. 7 miles from a nuke power plant and the power flickers all the damn time.

A P43 chipset with a 4850x2? x4 vs. x8 speeds or will that matter with a single slot "SLI" solution? I'm still a little unsure about the GPU & driver support.

Plus, the board had this review

oc feature is complicated very complicated and it conflicts with software oc apps even the one it comes with. so thats why it gets 4 eggs. and if you oc it locks up windows dumb
Click to expand...

Some of these reviews are a blast. :D
 
Okay, I have this in the shopping cart:

Newegg:

BFG ES-800 800W PSU

G.Skill DDR2 800 2 sets of 2x2Gb

Vista Home Premium (thanks for that link!)

Xigmatek Cooler (and bracket, EVERYONE recommends it)

TigerDirect:

2x Seagate ST31500341AS (1.5Tb HDD) - I know about the possible firmware updates for this. Hopefully TD packages their drives better than newegg.

What remains are the CPU/board and GPU. This system is going to have to last awhile, albeit with GPU upgrades possible. C2D @ 3.0Ghz... Now I'm wavering. I had my heart set on the Q9550--I'm not planning on OC'ing but I might like to try that at some point (a more noob oriented bios on the lower end Gigabytes is more to my skillset.)
 
Stick with the cheaper GA-EP43-DS3L -- both board have virtually identical specs, but the EP43-DS3L has a history of being a good, yet inexpensive, overclocking board. (Ignore the NewEgg reviews, as most of them are written by idiots.)

If you're trying to save money, get the Q6600. You can easily push it to at least 3GHz.
 
eggrock said:
A P43 chipset with a 4850x2? x4 vs. x8 speeds or will that matter with a single slot "SLI" solution?
Click to expand...

Huh? The only difference between P43 and P45 is Crossfire support. P43 still uses a 16x PCI-E 2.0 slot for its main graphics slot. If you're using a single HD4850X2, no need for Crossfire support from the mobo, since its a single card.

BTW, gigabytes are extremely easy to OC with, IMO. I, personally, dislike Asus BIOS options for OC'ing -- personal preference, really, but I don't let it affect my part decisions much, lol.
 
enginurd said:
Huh? The only difference between P43 and P45 is Crossfire support. P43 still uses a 16x PCI-E 2.0 slot for its main graphics slot. If you're using a single HD4850X2, no need for Crossfire support from the mobo, since its a single card.

BTW, gigabytes are extremely easy to OC with, IMO. I, personally, dislike Asus BIOS options for OC'ing -- personal preference, really, but I don't let it affect my part decisions much, lol.
Click to expand...

From what I've read the P43 chipset limits the PCI Express bus to x4/x4 speeds with dual-card SLI solutions and the P45 is x8/x8 speeds. I couldn't find anything relating to 2 GPUs on a single card but I don't think it will matter.

Regardless, I wound up going with the P45 chipset for a few dollars more. Here's the final specs, hardware pr0n coming when the parts arrive.

Case: Antec P182
PSU: BFG ES-800
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3L
CPU: E8400 + Xigmatek HSF - Quads should be easy to find if I need to upgrade later (unlike trying to find the 939-pin Opteron for my current system)
RAM: 8Gb G.Skill PC6400
GPU: Sapphire 4850x2
HDD: 2 Seagate Barracude 1.5Tb
Sound: X-Fi Platinum
OS: Vista 64 Home Premium

Bonus cookies:

Optical: Plextor DVD burner - worth the price IMO, and SATA instead of PATA.

UPS (finally): APC BR1500LDC

Laptop :)eek: what's a budget?) Gateway P-6831

[edit] Oh yeah, I'll be upgrading from an Athlon 3700+, 2 Gb RAM and an 8600GTS. I can FINALLY game at 1920x1200!
 
The P43 chipset has no CrossFire support -- you'll have one PCI-E x16 slot that runs at the full x16 bandwidth. If that's the reason why you're going towards the EP45-DS3L, swap it out for the P43 model.

And why don't you get the quad now? It's only a few dollars more than the E8400, and it's not like you don't have the money for it.
 
A gotta recomend the GTX 280 over than HD4850 X2. Sapphire < EVGA. Its nice to know that if the card dies, the company you bought it from isnt going to try to screw you over.

Also, the Q9550 is the cheapest dual wolfdale package with full L2, So I'd say stick with it if you want to budget it.

8GB is a waste, tests prove theres nothing to be gained from it (...yet), and it puts a significant extra workload on your northbridge, go for 2X2GB sticks.
 
As tiraides mentioned, there is no x4/x4 w/ P43... its only x16... there is no 2nd slot for Crossfire, since the chipset doesn't support Crossfire.
 
Okay, the sex is here. Evidently I'm the only one that will enjoy these pics.

hardpic.jpg


:)

Most of the goods (no case or laptop):

P1060079.jpg


Unpacking

P1060080.jpg


Here's the new laptop with my work PC as a reference. It's big.

P1060088.jpg


P1060091.jpg


Ready

P1060086.jpg


BFG PSU, nice and shiny--and quiet

P1060087.jpg


My wife saw this and said "Isn't that a fire hazard?" Knowing me it could be.. The first thing I did was drop a screw on the floor. My usual behavior.

P1060098.jpg


There were also a few :eek: moments related to dropping screwdrivers around this:

P1060100.jpg


My favorite part:

P1060110.jpg


P1060112.jpg


There's just no graceful way to get the fan on the HSF. lol - At least I got the bracket.

P1060116.jpg


My other helper.. This dog is so pathetic when she's tired.

P1060122.jpg


4850x2 - so much for the upper drive bay

P1060125.jpg


Look how badly it sags.. Gotta do something about that soon.

P1060129.jpg


P1060131.jpg


Stable!

P1060128.jpg
 
Pros and cons

- The P182 case is fantastic if you don't plan on doing a lot of builds in it. Wiring the case was a breeze. It's also extremely quiet, except:

- Not a huge fan of the 4850x2. Crysis runs like butter at 1920x1200 (Very High, DX10) but it is LOUD. When the fans are at low speed and the case is buttoned up it's quiet enough but I'd like it to be a little quieter. I'm thinking a cooling mod is a good first modding project for me. ;)

- PSU - I should've gone with a modular PSU. At least the case has plenty of room to stash extra wiring without interfering with anything else.

- Vista 64 - Looks and runs great; I'm liking it so far except I'll have to figure out how to get some apps. installed (like Photoshop 5.0.2)

- Creative Labs software. The software took 30 minutes to install from CD and then failed with unsigned drivers. Uninstalling took another half hour. Then downloading the correct driver from their site--66 Mb. Plus it added another 10-15 seconds to the boot time. I'm stuck with Creative for gaming (and the Platinum for 59.99 was a steal) but I am not a fan of their software at all.

- Function + F2... So *that* is how you turn wireless on on a laptop. Heh... Never had to do that before and it took me well over an hour to figure out.

The cores on the E8400 are at 39C with no load.. That seems a little high but that's compared to my old CPU (AMD 3700) which was in the 20s with no load. Maybe the E8400 runs a little hotter but it's something I'll have to look at in the Intel subforum.
 
Yes, the P182 is a nice case. I've done about a dozen or so builds in it and its brothers (P180/P180B). Wiring in that thing is cake.

That HD4850X2 is HUGE. You might want to get a cardkeeper for it, it looks like the unsupported corner needs support.

PS5??!!? CS4!!!!

Yah... and thats why we don't recommend creative... er, soundcards in general, lol, unless you're an audiophile. If you're not an audiophile, all that trouble isn't worth it. :p

Use Realtemp or Coretemp to check your CPU's temps. It should idle in the 20's, depending on ambient. It most likely idling higher because you have Smart CPU fan enabled. If you disable that, it should put the fan at full speed. Try it, it may or may not be loud for you.

Oh, and thanks for the pics! :D
 
Awesome pics!

Always warms my heart whenever I see a build I helped with get built.:)

Oh and thanks for reminding me to go and clean out my P180 case. It's been a month since I've last cleaned it :D
 
The quality of those photos are awesome. Hehe. I'm just impressed of how nice the photo quality is.
 
enginurd said:
[snip]

PS5??!!? CS4!!!!

Yah... and thats why we don't recommend creative... er, soundcards in general, lol, unless you're an audiophile. If you're not an audiophile, all that trouble isn't worth it. :p

Use Realtemp or Coretemp to check your CPU's temps. It should idle in the 20's, depending on ambient. It most likely idling higher because you have Smart CPU fan enabled. If you disable that, it should put the fan at full speed. Try it, it may or may not be loud for you.

Oh, and thanks for the pics! :D
Click to expand...

If I could upgrade PS5 to CS4 I'd think about it but that doesn't look like it's possible.

I'll definitely check into the cardkeeper, thanks for the recommendation. I was going to look for a block of plastic and start drilling.

Temps were from speedfan; I'll be checking out Realtemp when I get more time on the PC.
 
eggrock said:
Thanks. Price makes a differece; I'd like to work a UPS into this purchase. 7 miles from a nuke power plant and the power flickers all the damn time.

A P43 chipset with a 4850x2? x4 vs. x8 speeds or will that matter with a single slot "SLI" solution? I'm still a little unsure about the GPU & driver support.

Plus, the board had this review



Some of these reviews are a blast. :D
Click to expand...

I also am about to purchase that board, the p43 ds3l. My understanding of it is that the slot will still be at x16. The one main difference between p43 and p45 is that the p43 is not able to used for SLI/Crossfire boards (need p45 for sli/crossfire). If you are looking at p43 and p45 single slot boards, they are essentially the same both operating at x16 speeds.

someone correct me if I am wrong here.

EDIT: Haha, guess I should read the entire thread before posting, since it looks like you got your answers and also already ordered and built your PC.Guess I am a tad slow.

Nice PC you built there :D
 
RealTemp says 34C on the cores. That's still too high for my tastes so I'll reseat the HSF when the cardkeeper comes in. I'm not ripping off the plastic wrap on the case until everything is done!

Thanks again for the link enginurd. I like what that site has to offer. :cool:
 
Careful, you can end up spending hundreds on stuff you really don't need at that site. :p
 
Regarding my temps, I read up on how these temperature settings work with different tjmax values. But now I think I have a CPU with a stuck DTS on both cores. :(

I am getting movement when temps. go above 34C but I'm not convinced it's accurate. I ran Prime95 (small ffs) for ~10 minutes and the temps. only got up to 38C (measured with RealTemp and a tjmax of 95.) Note that the CPU is actually underclocked-- the multiplier was set to 8 in BIOS (x 333FBS = 2.66Ghz)--I'm still reading up on OC'ing before I get into BIOS changes. I love the BIOS layout BTW--I just wish it came with memtest like my old DFI board.

If those temps are correct I'm very happy with 38C under load. ;)
 
eggrock said:
... I just wish it came with memtest like my old DFI board. ...
Click to expand...

Yah... I miss my Ultra-D. That thing was great! :( I wish all newer boards came with all those nice perks for a reasonable price (onboard power switches, clear cmos button on rear i/o panel, onboard memtest w/ update option, onboard linux OS (asus expressgate), lcd panel for bios error codes, etc).
 
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