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BTX, who DOESN'T plan on changing

btx will not make me throw anyting out (no one can do that, i keep everything) i still have my P2 compaq with passive cooling here someplace, i didnt throw it out, but there isnt anything i can realy do with it...

new mobo cpu ram vid card, i can deal with, that was my last upgrade anyway, but adding my case to that when i dont have to pisses me off,


so if everything is btx (and i meen everything, im not an intel fanboy if amd makes a good atx setup ill go amd) then ill be suck with equipment that wont run newer programs, and posibly other little querks, you dont have to throw out your 286 but you cant lan with it either


and my pc room is heavaly armed and im using my inwin case as the rack for my free weight plates, (good old inwin, you can use their case as a jack stand) Im wating for some fan boy to try to force me to convert (aparently btx is a new religion that one of its tennans is to convert the world)

IM ticking with ATX (and those damn SpyNet guys so kicked xavierqs ass)
 
From my understanding the main benefit to BTX is heat. Which is not something we really need, or will need.

We're going to design a new case for what? 1 degree celcius improvement? That would probably be about it heh. Theres no "gee wize, lookie here that pa'ar swootch haint attached to dat psu!"

Theres nothing new BTX brings to the table.

If intel were a music band, we would name this "ATX re-mix"
 
oh i found a thread about the atx PSUs to BTX Here, give it a click


exactly i want my gpu on the top of the card, and when they make pci-ex vid cards they can also make the gpu on the top,

but cooling isnt an issue, ive added a front center intake over my hard drives, and a side intake over my gpu, and cpu. btx offers nothing for me at all...

remember atx and btx are just the configurations, its not that btx = pci -ex, and better cpu's and ram, but the the placement of such things on a main board, and then into a case that is btx the placement

saying btx is better b/c it will have..... features on it, means nothing if its also phisicaly posible to have those features in atx format or hell even at (and it is) so would i want my current rig to switch to btx, no $ just fary magic and boom its btx, no, it does nothing for me
 
the only thing that really pisses me off is the window will be in the wrong side for me and i wouldent be able to see it:mad:
 
ATX will still be around for my next upgrade cycle (end of this year) and that's all I care about.

Seriously, I think it is premature to worry much about BTX.

A) Even if everything goes according to Intel's evil empire plans, we've still got a year before no new technology is being released for ATX.

B) A year is actually a rather low estimate because I'm sure some rogue mobo manufacturers (possibly only for AMDs... THAT would sure be good for their market share) are going to continue making ATX for a few years. So tack a few more years on to that estimate.

C) Lots of industry supported formats totally flop. Do you think that most vendors WANT to change over to a case format if it really has little technical value? No that means re-tooling of existing cases, re-training technicians, re-thinking cooling which equals expenses. If BTX really does offer no advantage (I'm torn on that one right now, both sides make interesting cases) then I doubt that it will recieve industry support. Without vendor or consumer support the format will rapidly die out or become limited to a specific niche market.
 
Originally posted by Wixard
When AMD goes BTX ill go BTX

Im surprised intel can keep its name with everything else they constantly change, chipsets, FSB speeds, cores, sockets, now cases...Heh.
You gotta kinda laugh and feel sorry for them
Click to expand...

Yes, feel sorry for them. I'm sure the execs at Intel are warmed by your pity when they are trying to get to sleep at night on top of their piles and piles of money :).

If that didn't make it apparent, I very much disagree with your sentiment towards Intel. Yes, they change things. It's not in some arcane desire to force consumers to jump through fiery hoops, it's in the goal to get a better product so they can make more money. And up until the release of the Athlon, if you wanted a real computer you didn't buy AMD anyhow --so I would have to say those changes kept them ahead of their competition.

Regardless. Do you really think AMD does not make a bunch of changes to "FSB speeds, cores, sockets"? Let's see how well my memory is for this sort of information. Someone help me fill in the blanks or tell me if I've got anything wrong!

Sockets:

AMD piggybacked on Intel's socket choices up to Socket 7, at which point they diverged. After which:

-Slot A (original Athlon)
-Socket A (Thunderbird and up)
-Socket 754 (A64)
-Socket 940 (OPT)

Intel (after divergence) meanwhile had:

-Slot 1 (Cel/P3/P3-Xeon)
-Socket 370 (Cel/P3)
-Socket 423 (P4)
-Socket 478 (P4)
-Socket 603 (P4-Xeon)

Intel has one more socket/slot.

FSB's (starting with that aforementioned divergence, which is truly when AMD came into it's own):

AMD:

-66 (K6-2)
-75 (K6-2)
-100 (K6-2/K6-3)
-200 (K-7, Thunderbird, Palomino)
-266 (Palomino, Thoroughbred, Barton)
-333 (Palomino, Thoroughbred, Barton)
-400 (Barton core)

Intel:

-66 (Cel/P2)
-100 (Cel/P3)
-133 (P3)
-400 (P4)
-533 (P4)
-800 (P4)

Yeah, I don't think I really need to count those up. Someone let me know if there was an 83mhz FSB K6-2 as well --I don't think there was but I might be wrong.

Cores:

I almost certainly will forget a bunch of these. But here are the ones I recall.

AMD:

-K6-2
-K6-2+
-K6-3
-K6-3+
-K7 (Athlon)
-Thunderbird (Athlon)
-Palomino (Athlon)
-Thoroughbred A (Athlon)
-Thoroughbred B (Athlon)
-Barton (Athlon)
-Thorton (Duron)
-Spitfire (Duron)
-Morgan (Duron)
-Applebred (Duron)
-Sledgehammer (Opteron + A64)
-Clawhammer (A64)

Intel:

-Klamath (P2)
-Deschutes (P2)
-Katmai (P3)
-Coppermine (P3)
-Tualatin (P3)
-Willamette (P4)
-Northwood (P4)
-Prescott (P4)
-Covington (Celeron without L2 cache)
-Mendocino (Celeron)
-Coppermine-128 (Celeron)
-Willamette-128 (Celeron)
-Prescott 5 (Celeron)
-DS2P (Xeon)
-Tanner (Xeon)
-Cascades (Xeon)
-Foster (Xeon)

I probably missed some cores, but it looks to me like there are... more than a few. On both sides.

But I hope my point is made: AMD changes stuff around about as often as Intel does. Both companies do it to try to resolve issues or put out a better product. Don't get pissed about it, just don't buy it if it doesn't do anything for you.

Erik
 
I agree with most of you guys here. The BTX design is not something that the PC needs. Intel is going to try and use whatever power they have left to push the consumers to use their "new standard" I'm sure all of you remember rdram and that is all I have to say..
 
Heh, not to burst your bubble or anything either, but intel also has 133mhz P3s, but your point is still evident without it ;)
 
Dude, you've gotta put all your edits on one post so I don't have to keep changing it :). Can't believe I forgot the 133mhz FSB P3.

Erik
 
PCI Express is a good thing, to the person who was griping about lack of back-compatibility for new products. AGP is a hack, and PCI is ready to die.

*ahem*

If BTX ever actually achieves market dominance over ATX, I'll think about it. Meantime, I'll just go with whatever's most cost-effective.

Meantime, didn't AMD make the math coprocessors for Intel a long time ago? :p
 
Originally posted by Dem
Dude, you've gotta put all your edits on one post so I don't have to keep changing it :). Can't believe I forgot the 133mhz FSB P3.

Erik
Click to expand...

Heres the deal sealer: Socket A is mature, Yes they have opteron sockets, and a64 also, however the differance is that all 3 are in production.
Any socket a board that can do 133 fsb can handle a recent processor. 3 Major revisions to a chipset over a 1.8 ghz speed increase is A LOT. (thats like what, a year and a half? New chipset every few months, on the other side of the fence a year and a half old board can still be upgraded with a processor thats new)

From a system builders point of view: If i stock Intel stuff, its usually worthless in 6 months. (which is quite important when decent boards are to expensive) Not that it somehow stops working, but processor change is to frequent on the intel side of the fence.

I can still buy a fairly old chipset (such as kt266a) And put a recent processor in it . (up to 2400+, and the kt266a is not new at all. therefore my stock doesnt magically become worthless while intel changes something, whatever they choose to do)

3 Sockets for P4, 1 socket for the athlon. Thats my score. 2 For AMD server cpus, 3 (or is it 4? Not including itanic) For intel.

Dont forget to add rambus to the mix.
 
I realize the flaws with the current PCI and AGP set. But that doesn't discount the fact that the current consumer market is 100% invested in that system. You're not asking people to make a minor upgrade, you're asking them to replace every single component of their system without exception. I'm just saying I'd like to see a transition. Either a backwards compatability, or a bus with PCI and PCI-E both supported (like with ISA). PCI would eventually phase out, as did ISA, but there wouldn't be the abrupt need to replace every component at once.

Erik, you make it sound like we're a bunch of AMD fanboys in here, that they're the ultimate answer to all of our BTX woes. With the exception of my 486 DLC 40 and the K6 I'm on now (temporarily) I've bought one Intel CPU after another. It's not about who's made more changes, though getting stuck with a S423 P4 did piss me off. It's about making a useless change, that does nothing by cost me money. I don't care if it saves them money, I don't own their stock.
 
I know Im not changing for a while. I'm going to wait till all those smacktards with their money make the standards an actual standard. Then when I know BXT, PCI-E, and the new power supplys are going to stay around for a while, I'll invest my money. But until then I want to watch all those snobs complaining 3 years from now about how they cant find a compatable power supply.
 
Well, the PSU thing is a bad example, because once PCI-E is adopted into mobos, you *will* have to move to an ATX 2.3 PSU, even if it still in an ATX and not BTX formfactor.

My big thing will be to see if case manufacturers will put out new mobo trays. That will be nice
 
I think you'll need more than a mobo tray to fix it, but yes, I wouldn't mind seeing a hybrid drop-in solution for existing cases... even if I damn make it myself.
 
xavierq, not at all: my post was essentially not related to the thread topic (haha, sorry). It was just a response to Wixard posting something I considered pretty ignorant. It certainly wasn't a response to percieved AMD 'fanboys'. There is an Athlon in front of me, an Athlon to my right, and an Athlon to my left ;). I build systems only based on what performs best for myself or my customers, and nothing else.

Originally posted by Wixard
Dont forget to add rambus to the mix.
Click to expand...

Wixard, 3 major revisions to a chipset over a year and a half is a lot? How about 3 major revisions to a chip over a year and a half? It goes both ways. Both companies do it. That's the point of my post.

As for longevity of boards, it totally depends on the timeframe. Both companies do changes, though Intel is the most recent one to make such a change (Willamette boards are not compatible with Northwood/Prescott boards). But not too long ago this went the other way: Athlon buyers needed new boards for the change from Slot A to Socket A, while intel buyers kept their old BX boards but bought new p3's to run in them. Seeing the point? Goes both ways.

That Intel is the company who did it most recently means nothing, because both companies will continue to do it. Chances are next time such a change will come from AMD.

From a 'system builders' point of view, it's the exact same thing. And also, from a system builders point of view: if you hold anything for 6 months it's worthless (or next to), regardless of who made it. If you're not turning over stock in six months, you're in trouble :).

3 sockets for P4? Which one did I miss, exactly?

By the way: RDRAM? Intel ditched it. Mentioning RDRAM is like mentioning the major incompatibility issues early Athlons had with nVidia GPU's. Both were problems, both are 'fixed'. Looks like both companies can make mistakes too --go figure.

I think my point still stands: AMD changes things about as often as Intel does.

Erik
 
I don't, I think I will stick with my current setup until a. no more agp cards, b. my cpu can't keep up w/o bots, then Ill do a complete upgrade including btx.
 
Originally posted by Dem

I think my point still stands: AMD changes things about as often as Intel does.

Erik
Click to expand...



Heres how i see it. Mature motherboards means no more rambus sightings. If this were 6 months ago, it would mean I could buy 16 nf2 mobos and not worry no new processors will be made for them. (that point is moot since i dont see to many more socket a processors being manufactured) As for the nvidia compatability problems, i never saw them. Sure i heard of problems from people on message boards over the internet, but i never knew of a system effected by such. Then again ive heard "Athlons arent comatable with X hardware" Over and over.
Amd went from slot a to socket a yea, but mainstream amd procs are still on socket A (as i said not for long, but since we've been with socket a for years now its not to bad) If things were up to intel, we'd be using rambus (and paying 4 times the price), and if things are up to intel, we'll be using BTX.

In other words, i cant put any amount of faith into an intel machine i build that the person can come back 8 months later and actually be able to buy (or have done for them) an upgrade. Sure you could go from a 1.6 to a 1.8, in order to make a substancial upgrade you would need to buy a whole new board. On the other hand in sitting here on a pc with a duron 850, thats years old, but can still go to 2400+ Thats what i mean by longevity.

EDIT: eh..its worthless after 6 months? Not so sure about that.
 
I don't know if I really hate the BTX design, I've seen some pics of it and all, all I have to say is that by the time it comes out, we'll have to see how cool it is or how much it sucks, etc. But it is interesting, none the less.
 
well....

if I'm upgrading after much waiting, as I did with this (went from a P3/933 just two or so weeks ago) and BTX is what is out there... It'll be BTX.

I am fond and comfortable with ATX, but we'll see if BTX takes off or not, and just how effective it is (or isn't) and then ... well... there won't be all of this speculation.

When you've got thermal numbers on a BTX case and whatever kind of rig is inside of it, I think it'll be safe to make up my mind then...
 
Originally posted by burningrave101
I dont plan to buy a BTX case till the end of the year maybe when i'll think about upgradeing again from my 3.0c Northwood to a new Prescott/Teja.

For right now i have a new Antec 1080 SOHO and it works fine.
Click to expand...
Wow... same case, system and philosophy
 
again i must say, i dont give a shit about intel, amd, cpu, ram... not the point anyting can be but on at, atx, btx,

pci express can be put on any damn shaped mobo, any shaped case,

the best damn vid card, ram and procesor can be put on atx or btx just the same, the only question is, will there be an option, can i buy a mobo thats atx that will have what im looking for, better vid card, procesor, ram capabiliaties,

i say yes some one will make that, ok intel is pushing btx, so if i stick with intel ill buy the intel chip, ill buy an abit or asus mobo, so its not up to intel what i buy its up to asus or abit, and what asus and abit make is partly up to us hell i know that people from antec read threads in here (ok so i e-mail out some intresting links to people i know)

amd and intell change, technology gets better, but btx isnt a better set up, its not as simple as faster procesor or ram, its simpy difrent

so again i say, Im sticking with ATX and who is with me (for the hell of it add it in your sig)
 
I am going to buy a BTX loaded system just to piss you off xavierq.


Just think of me walking into CompUSA and yelling out "BTX TO GO!!!"
 
Just got a new Rig so it'll be 3-4 Years before I buy another one.
 
I dare say the guys in CompUSA wouldn't have a damn clue what you're talking about, that's assuming you can even find an employee there...

If you're gonna buy a BTX board, can you at least buy a POS OEM model, so they don't think decent builders are interested in them?
 
I just got a new system up and fully working only 1.5 months ago, so I'm pretty good to go for another 2 or 3 years before major system overhaul.
 
Originally posted by xavierq
If you're gonna buy a BTX board, can you at least buy a POS OEM model, so they don't think decent builders are interested in them?
Click to expand...
That's the silliest reason I've ever heard.

Enthusiasts/system builders like us make up a tiny (not negligible, but still small) portion of Intel's market. You know who makes money for Intel? OEMs.
 
Didn't get very far into this thread, been a while since I read it. But the ATX "underground" doesn't exist yet, and I wasn't shitting on this thread with my first post.

I think you ATX "underground" fanboys are going a bit over the top with being asses to people who posted here. This is a forum, and I apologize for communicating over it like I'm supposed to. I stayed on topic and didn't put down the ATX form factor or anything.

Cool down.
 
Drinnit :

yes you where on topic with your original post,

i started the thread not for people to try to sway me, but for people of a like mind to converse...

i cant stop people from talking shit, but i also dont have to be happy with it, just as you felt the need to make comment about "atx fanboys" if you truly feel the way you just said, then you are being hypocrytical, if you have the right to express an opinion on a private forum when another member has asked you not to state something, then other people there have the right to be upset by it, and call you on your rude action, dont jump down some ones throught about free speach while telling them to censor themselves


Stiletto One:
Intell makes is $ off oem but im not going to buy an intell board, does asus, and inwin, and Mushkin make their $ off oem, not as much, intel makes the cpu, and mobo, but you can get another mobo, and that mobo can be any damn shape the manufacturer wants, you can make a mobo for new intel chips, and pci express fit into an AT case,

we arent talking about where intell makes their $ but about where case manufacturers, and motherbaord manufacturers make some $ (it dosnt have to be all, or a majoraty or alot, just enouph $ to be worth it to them, and the fact that they can use the same workers, and equipment makes atx a much better way to go for them)

Intell doesnt want me to oc my cpu, but asus sold me a mother board that lets me do that, and i can buy a watter cooling set up, and i can use rounded cables, and put in lights, and fans, and that all has shit to do with intel they just make the damn cpu, if i was balls on about making intel not go to btx then yes you have an point and im nuts, but my point is that atx is going to stay around b/c it will still make people $ maybe not intell, but the only thing they may have gotten my $ for in the first place is cpu so it desnt matter the % of their $ comes from us, what matters is, will other companies be willing to keep their curent infestructure, and make $ off a consumer base they are already heavaly persuing, if their wasnt $ in enthusiests this forum wouldnt be here, you think newegg is a public sirvice that runs at a loss, or that enouph of us click that link at the top of this page that they pay to have it there, and make $ off the deal.....
 
Originally posted by BLsibub666
Stuff
Click to expand...
Hmm. I can see what you mean, but my point stands.

Asus is one of the biggest suppliers of motherboards for OEMs: they (and IWill) are the main producers of "Intel" motherboards, and I'm pretty sure they do almost all of Dell's mobo work. Inwin probably does cases for OEMs, it's not like OEMs ever tell us who makes their cases. :rolleyes: Mushkin's not really in that market sector, but they wouldn't be affected by a form factor swap anyway.

As for the ATX/BTX argument being irrelevant to Intel's revenue, actually, it's highly relevant. If not enough people go with BTX (not like it matters, since major OEMs will go with it just to follow Intel), then theoretically, they would have to redesign their processors to fit ATX spec more. Power's not the problem, heat is. Given, there are plenty of non bare-spec ATX cases out there, but OEMs won't want them: current ATX states that your computer should be capable of running stably on the power supply fan and one supplemental intake or exhaust fan. When you're dissipating 150W (a number that's circulating around for the TDP of Intel's next series of processors) from the processor alone, plus another 70W for a high-performance graphics card, two low-flow quiet fans (like the kind that OEMs are willing to use, since Joe Six-Pack doesn't like noisy computers) aren't going to cut it.

Hence, the BTX directed-airflow setup. One or two slow fans are enough to keep the really hot stuff cool, and the other computer components can survive on natural circulation.

So what if my Chenming 710 with a bunch of fans running 7V can handle a massive thermal load? Go look at the HPs and Dells and IBMs on market, and tell me if their fan layout and case design would let them survive a 4GHz Prescott and GeForceFX 5900 class graphics processor. They can't. And they follow ATX thermal spec to the letter. Even Dell follows ATX thermal and electrical spec now, if not necessarily form factors.

Also, round cables, modding, overclocking, and other related computer subculture stuff isn't exactly relevant to anyone up in the corporate world—it's not like they care what we do once we buy the equipment, as long as we're not remarking CPUs for sale.
 
i hate both atx and btx case setups because they dont offer good airflow, i mean the cpu should have cool air hitting the fan directly to the cpu heatsink who ever thought of having the psu coming out the back was a fucking retard, the heat from the psu should be pushed out of the top of the case so u can pull air from the back! gah, just makes me mad. You could also have fans on the bottom of the of the case and push threw ur hdd's and onto ur vid card and use the outtake on the top, i dont see why they didnt take this sooner, even for the big server cases the same idea could apply just get an extension on the power connector, this would help get the heat away from the cpu aswell. okay off my soapbox lol peace
 
Originally posted by Morphes
Rant
Click to expand...
Sure, but then people could DROP STUFF INTO THE PSU. That would be bad. Fans on the bottom will suck debris and all sorts of other crap in. Besides, they'd be constricted by how close they would be to the ground.

Vertically directed intakes and exhausts are generally a bad idea, actually, unless you're careful. Which most users aren't.
 
And even if nothing is dropped into it, people have all kinds of stuff on the top of computer cases (I have a selection of useful books, usually), which means you'd either kill the airflow or remove a useful stackable surface.

And if you did do it, thinking that people could store their stuff somewhere else, you'd still get lots of people laying things on top of it. (I'm sure you can come up with at least as stereotypical examples as what I almost posted). No reason to make a design that makes it that much easier to make mistakes default.

Random edit: The address in my signature is there for a reason. *coughNextPostcough* :)
 
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