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BTX, who DOESN'T plan on changing

Morphes: add a side intake

Stiletto One:
oem doesnt buy prebuild mobos, they ontract them out same with cases, the onlything i think they just go out and buy are cables, and hard drives, even the optical drives have a tradmark logo or something on the bezle...

asus may make dell mobo's but those arent the same mobos that asus sells to everyone elce, (if it was id have to go get a dell psu b4 this computer fried due to their proprietary shit)... they make proprietary shit to fit in proprietary cases for oem,

what mobo manufacturers make for oem and what they make for the retail enthusiests market are two difrent things... if you go to asus, "do me a favore dont change your asembaly lin at all, and just put in pci express instead of pci and agp, and sell it to the people that buy your high end boards, they may even deal with you charging a little more" you think they would kick you out, or hand you a cookie give you a pat on the head and say "yeah no shit" they dont need to make a shit load of $ just enouph to make it worth their time, and the fact that they dont have to change over their infestructure at all makes it worth it to them, thn the fact that there are already atx cases on the market, and most people are used to atx.... many reasons for any manufacturer to keep a line of atx going that is compatable with new intel cpus (maybe even for over clocking) and pci-express
 
Originally posted by BLsibub666
Morphes: add a side intake

Stiletto One:
oem doesnt buy prebuild mobos, they ontract them out same with cases, the onlything i think they just go out and buy are cables, and hard drives, even the optical drives have a tradmark logo or something on the bezle...

asus may make dell mobo's but those arent the same mobos that asus sells to everyone elce, (if it was id have to go get a dell psu b4 this computer fried due to their proprietary shit)... they make proprietary shit to fit in proprietary cases for oem,

what mobo manufacturers make for oem and what they make for the retail enthusiests market are two difrent things... if you go to asus, "do me a favore dont change your asembaly lin at all, and just put in pci express instead of pci and agp, and sell it to the people that buy your high end boards, they may even deal with you charging a little more" you think they would kick you out, or hand you a cookie give you a pat on the head and say "yeah no shit" they dont need to make a shit load of $ just enouph to make it worth their time, and the fact that they dont have to change over their infestructure at all makes it worth it to them, thn the fact that there are already atx cases on the market, and most people are used to atx.... many reasons for any manufacturer to keep a line of atx going that is compatable with new intel cpus (maybe even for over clocking) and pci-express
Click to expand...

The Dell PSU issue has been gone for about a year now... they're back to using regular ATX PSUs.
Also outdated are you ideas about proprietary form-factors... Unless your going to a thin formfactor like 2xxx series HPs or Dell's thin cases, you're not going have a proprietary form factor! I can't speak for computers that I haven't dealt with, but HP and Dell do *not* use non-ATX form factors anymore in their main, full-sized linup. Also, case in point: Compaq and Coolermaster cases. Compaq has begun reciently building their computer in coolermaster cases... that are still ATX.

As for you logic in the manufacturing world, that would hold as long as Asus was only making one type of board at a time... but they're not. Do you think the production of ATX boards will magically halt the moment OEMs start demanding BTX-style boards? I don't think so! You can find Socket 370 boards that are still AT form-factor, even tho ATX really started taking off with the Pentium 2! Manufacturers are not going to be left behind when it comes to new technology like this. There is going to be a transitional period between Mostly ATX production to Mostly BTX production, not All ATX to All BTX overnight :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And I don't care if you want PCI Express on your next ATX board or not, but regardless of the form factor it's going to want a new ATX 2.3 power supply or if you're dumb enough to use an adapter melted and burned wires are in your future.
 
::smackes limp hand against chest, while repeating, Dhuhhhh::

Vertigo Acid:

so dell changed over to atx psu's (it was an example, get over it) so dell uses atx psu's so their boards arent prorpietary, they buy overclocking motherboards, at newegg no they call a company and state the specs they want, and either get a bid on a contract or send the specs to whome ever they already have a contract with. I havent tried but Im not sure that you can buy a replacement mobo for a dell from anyone but dell

and you meen that i can get a p3 mobo, or i can only get intel or amd (one or the other) wow, oh sorry, no shit... you seem to not understand, you just made my point for me, the point here was that people on this forum (not all but some, far too many) seem to think once btx comes in, we will all have to change over, and we will have no options, my point is that manufactuers wil still make atx boards with the upgrades, (b/c they will still make atx, asweel as btx, they are set up for making atx, and there is $ in it)

i dont give a shit about my psu, Im going to sell this psu with this mobo (or just move it to another case alltogeather)
 
... SO if you accept that there is going to be a long period of both standards being prevalent, whats the point of announcing to the world "I'm not changing, who's with me?"! It's not the ATX underground if it's not underground!
 
I (we?) haven't really said much of anything to the effect of "OMG THIS SUCKS WE'RE ALL GONNA HAVE TO GO BTX". We are saying that major manufacturers aren't going to give a rat's ass what we think about the change, because if major OEMs go to BTX (and since most major OEMs make most of their money off of Intel gear they will), then it would become cost-effective pretty rapidly for everyone else to follow suit. Given, SSI-EEB form factor and whatnot (which has a lot of similarities to ATX, hence the nickname Extended ATX) isn't going anywhere, but that doesn't help the regular ATX crowd.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we saw cases which simply meet specifications of both form factors; there are plenty out there that work with both AT and ATX boards, aside from power switch shenanigans.
 
Stiletto One:

no you didnt say that, and i didnt meen to imply that you did im not an idiot, i know thats not what you where saying, but others in other random threads did say that everyone must change over to btx b/c its new and intell said so (its like i said yo fucktard, in a crowded room, and you turned around and got pissed assuming i was talking to you)

how the hell can something work for both atx and btx, there are going to be card slots on the top and botom of the case, the only way to do that would be to have a completly retooled mobo tray that you can swap out, or a swapable back panle, so its not that both fit, but that you have the option of making it one or the other


and again oem buys oem, we buy retail, manufacturers sell oem, and retail, they dont have to make grand percentage of their $ off us, just enouph to make it worth their time,

you think overclocker boards are made b/c oems wanted them and then changed their mind or something, or boards modded to fit color scheams, and alike, no, manufacurers make what will sell, they make oem shit for oem and retail shit for retail

they work with two markets, and the make $ of both, did you buy an oem mobo???? give me the make and modle of your mobo, so i can find out if dell or hp or gateway uses that one.
 
It's amazing how a few periods and commas can make stiletto one so much more credible and easier to understand...
 
sorry forum kinda dissapeared when i tried to edit this in b4 its simpler to just make another post.


Vertigo Acid "... SO if you accept that there is going to be a long period of both standards being prevalent, whats the point of announcing to the world "I'm not changing, who's with me?"! It's not the ATX underground if it's not underground! "

sorry i didnt know i needed your aproval for a post on a private forum, ill check with you from now on to make sure that my posts and threads have adiquite reasons in your godlike eyes... but just so i get a reference, what was your point in your post, and maybe whats the point in your continued existance, i just thought you knowing oh so much may be able to enlighten me on the meening of it all


many people gave me bull shit reasons that btx is better, w/o anything to back it up, as of right now btx isnt better for me, the point of the thread was to see if there where others that whent along with this, hence the fucking title of "Im not ghinging to btx who is with me" but saddly people cant fucking read or ceep their moulths shut and they feel the need to jump on the thread and crap it, as ive stated b4 this isnt a convert me to btx and show me the light thread its, add your name to the lyst if your not converting.

the fact that people decided to argue that mobo manufactuers wont make atx anymore on here is redickulous, and off topic, if there is a market to make $ they will make $ some people dont agree with that, but then some people are wrong.

im gonna look into getting that guy out of your house, you know the guy that must be standing with a gun to your head making you read this thread, and making you post in it under threat of death, right thats whats going on, you just had to post here, you couldnt just read see that some one may have a difrence in opinion, and move on,

if i posted "i like my mac, it kicks ass for what i do" posting, shit like, "no pc is better, you have to go pc, pc is the way to go" is all considerd off topic thread crapping, yet here people tend to do it w/o a 2nd thought, if i was in the car forum and posted "i like my new ford f450, who elce thinks they rock" thats not the place to talk about their dodge dart now is it, no



what ive learned,

dont post threads, b/c they dont have any purpouse, even if you spell it out over and over again,

soon we will all have to buy intel, and we will all have to buy from dell or hp b/c no one will make equipment for enthusiests, even if there is $ in it for them, b/c oem spend more $ (though they spend less per unit)

so amd will go under b/c you wont be able to get any hardware to go with your chip
 
Vertigo Acid: Well then how about this...

Fuck you! It would please me if I was to soon hear news of your death. You have had nothing to add to this thread, and have only proceded to "crap" in it. I see no reason for people like you to exist in this world, you are a waste of skin, and your wasting my screen space. I am happy for you, glad that you got just one extra post to add to your count, saddly the number of posts has nothing to do with their quality, but alase there is only so much they can do here.

one day you will die and i will be happy is that easy to understand, im not threatening you im not going to do a damn thing but i do know that you will die, and the world will be rid of you and your shit talking thread crapping ass, go get a life, go work on your blog or something, i didnt fucking ask you for a comentary on my grammer and this isnt a, who is gonna win, me or Stiletto One thread. so fuck off
 
We all know that BLsibub's posts are mostly unintelligable. That doesn't give his adversaries more credibility. I make my best points by condensing his rants into fluent thoughts with correct punctuation.

The reoccuring theme I keep getting infuriated by is
(not like it matters, since major OEMs will go with it just to follow Intel),
Click to expand...
Stiletto One makes some good points, so he's not a moron. But he keeps coming back to this nonsense argument. What OEM's do has FUCK ALL to do with what happens in the enthusiast market. BLsibus is wrong, too, with his ideal vision of a mobo fab plant. But if these guys based what boards they sell on what OEMs do, you wouldn't even be able to buy an OCable board. There is a niche for us, and only we can ultimately control what is produced for it. This is a capitalist economy, and business only works if they sell what we're buying. Yes, they can make all BTX, and force us to but it, but this is a free market economy. Someone will make what we want, so they all have to make what we want or lose out on our business. If enough of us want ATX form factor, we'll get it.

But to tell me that BTX is better for reasons that only affect OEM's, and then to cascade that reason onto me as your entire arguement for a switch to BTX is madness. The only thing that affects what we can buy is what we will buy. So drop this OEM buying power bull shit.

We are saying that major manufacturers aren't going to give a rat's ass what we think about the change, because if major OEMs go to BTX (and since most major OEMs make most of their money off of Intel gear they will), then it would become cost-effective pretty rapidly for everyone else to follow suit.
Click to expand...

Damn dirty lies. What is most cost affective is not the only driving factor in our market. If no one buys the boards you make, it's not very cost affective to make them, is it?

And while I see what you mean with vertical venting, are any of us doing that? No. Maybe it's time for a form factor to match our power user demands. A super ATX board, with things designed with high output systems in mind. Assumed high end cooling and a huge 3D card. Your being a moron wouldn't even be considered, because you're not a moron, are you? Who'd use ATX or BTX if SuperATX had twice the airflow, as long as you run high CFM fans? Blow holes written right into the spec? Cool! Can life get any better? I submit to you that it cannot.

We have the power for this manufactorer niche. Let's use it. Enough of this OEM BTX broke my back sissy pansy bull shit. Demand a power-user form factor.
 
xavierq:

It's that kind of attitude that I can appriciate! Rather than stand around together saying "Derp de-derp we're not going to go BTX
" demand something better than ATX!

I'm still not seeing the point of it... so you're not going to BTX.... that's it? What's the punchline? The point? It's like a dozen people boycotting McDonald's, do you think it's really going to make a difference? :rolleyes: LOL this whole thing has gotten way out of hand IMO. It's just a form-factor!

Anyway, back to SuperATX. I'd really like to see some smart improvements like putting the AGP or now PCI-E slot on the opposite side of the mobo as the CPU, with a nice stream of fresh air being blow across both of them. Like this:



exhaust-CPU-Ducting-Intake
pci
pci HD's Intake
pci
pci
exhaust-AGP Intake



or

Blowhole Blowhole
|
CPU-Ducting-Intake
pci
pci
pci HD'S Intake
pci
pci
exhause-AGP Intake (2 92s or 120s)
 
Vertigo Acid:
The idea was, if you know 12 people that want to boycot McDonald's then it helps to find out if there are more than 12. If there are only 12 your fucked, but if you say, "hay put your name up here so we can count the # of people that will boycot with us" then you have something.

But instead of putting your name on it, you said that you love McDonald's and you dont know what the point of the lyst is, when at the top of the lyst it tells you "add your name if your boycotting McDonald's"

I understand that you have trouble with analogies, and you nit pick them so here is the conversion. "Im boycotting BTX, if you are not, thats your desicion and I'm ok with that, but if you will join my boycot please add your name to this thread" But what you posted wasnt your name on the thread, so I am afraid i dont see the point in your posts

If you want to talk about SuperATX then make a fucking "I want to talk about SuperATX" thread, and I swear to you, I will not crap in it. If you need me to I'll make the thread for you, (I've done it before, but you would know that if you read this thread). You can even post a link in here to your new thread, so the people reading my thread will know where to find yours.

you dont need to see the point in my thread, if you dont see the point move on,
 
Are any BTX cases even on sale yet? With Gransdale just around the corner, I think we would actually be able to accomodate tomorrow's technology today. As far as upgrading, sure, I want a new case anyway.
 
Originally posted by xavierq
The reoccuring theme I keep getting infuriated by is Stiletto One makes some good points, so he's not a moron. But he keeps coming back to this nonsense argument. What OEM's do has FUCK ALL to do with what happens in the enthusiast market.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's nonsensical at all.

The OEM market is dominated by Intel. If Intel puts out a new form factor and electrical spec (as necessitated by their new line of processors), the OEMs will follow. Bare ATX spec (which is what OEMs follow) isn't enough for Prescott, and it's barely even enough for currently available high-performance CPUs and graphics cards. So the mobo manufacturers and case manufacturers start putting out BTX gear in huge volumes, for their main market. Motherboard manufacturers order PCB in Big™ quantities; it's a nontrivial part of every board's price. They'll want to stick with one primary form factor if possible, to keep their costs down.

That's where we are tied to mobo manufacturers' OEM business. Featuresets and BIOSes have always been entirely determined by consumer demand, so that's not a problem. But do you really think that any sane company (ouch, personification) would want to produce TWICE the number of product lines (now I'm talking about us, not OEMs)—as in doubling initial product launch costs—for a static consumer pool? Yeah, they have the physical capability to do it, but there aren't enough of us geeks to make it worthwhile. I highly doubt that profit margins on enthusiast sales are high enough that they could eat the cost of launching a more or less identical line of products to clone their current line of ATX motherbaords. Same would apply to cloning BTX lines for ATX form factor in the future. It's just silly when you look at logistics.

Meantime, BLsibub brings up a good idea on making cases dual-role: just swap out the backpanel. That's, like, a sheet of stamped metal. Enthusiast case manufacturers will probably just wind up selling cases with both backplates right there, and the actual tray that you screw a motherboard into can just have all of the mounting holes. Cost of doing something like that would probably be lower than putting out entire cases in both form factors. *shrug*

Oh yeah, BLsibub: Your thread has been derailed. Deal with it. :p It's a generally on-topic discussion, so mods have no reason to close it, and you'll note that we're not arguing that BTX is better, we're arguing about whether or not the BTX shift will affect the stuff we will be able to buy.
 
Originally posted by BLsibub666
Vertigo Acid:
The idea was, if you know 12 people that want to boycot McDonald's then it helps to find out if there are more than 12. If there are only 12 your fucked, but if you say, "hay put your name up here so we can count the # of people that will boycot with us" then you have something.

But instead of putting your name on it, you said that you love McDonald's and you dont know what the point of the lyst is, when at the top of the lyst it tells you "add your name if your boycotting McDonald's"

I understand that you have trouble with analogies, and you nit pick them so here is the conversion. "Im boycotting BTX, if you are not, thats your desicion and I'm ok with that, but if you will join my boycot please add your name to this thread" But what you posted wasnt your name on the thread, so I am afraid i dont see the point in your posts
Click to expand...

So if i'm understanding you correctly, you want to have a thread, that consists purely of names or handles of people that are boycotting BTX....
on a DISCUSSION board.
:p
That's a good one, but April 1st was 9 days ago
 
I'm still thinking, It all depends on how much money I have when all this new stuff comes out.
But by the looks of it I'll be parting from this system VERY soon, it's pissing me off.
 
Your thread has been derailed. Deal with it.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna side with you, here. There's only so much "I'm with ATX" discussion you can do without going where this thread has gone. He wanted an idea of who's not going BTX, and he's gotten it. If this is a correct sampling, we won't get continued ATX support for our group. So we need an alternative answer. Enter SuperATX. I almost say that a new thread is a good idea, not so much to keep our discussion out of his thread, but because no one is gonna sift through this thread to find SuperATX discussion, but we might get some good perspective from people who would post in a new thread instead.

I highly doubt that profit margins on enthusiast sales are high enough that they could eat the cost of launching a more or less identical line of products to clone their current line of ATX motherbaords.
Click to expand...

ok, I see what you're saying now. You're right, they can't afford to clone their entire enthusiast line for ATX and BTX. They COULD afford to make it an ATX only release, on the grounds that enthusiasts don't use BTX boards, only OEM's do. But that apparently isn't the case (as was the failed hope of this thread). With split interest, most boards will go BTX. We were hoping that there was not split interest


Meantime, BLsibub brings up a good idea on making cases dual-role: just swap out the backpanel.
Click to expand...

If they do this retroactively... or, rather, if they offer at a neglagable price a replacement mobo tray to easily change me from ATX to BTX, I suppose I could justify it. If all it's adding to my upgrade cost is the price of this aluminum tray, and I keep my case, that's acceptable. It's not IDEAL, but it's acceptable.

I'm having a hard time following your SuperATX designs as drawn in text, there, but I think I kinda see what you're saying. The spec would definately assume blowholes, and probably require ducting for cpu and vidcard. Hell, if the cpu and gpu heat are assumed to be getting air directly from a blow hole, and ducting the heat straight out of the case, the resulting drop in ambient case temps could probably relax the rest of the spec...hell, they could make a spec that assumes water cooling. maybe that's a bit much, though.
 
Vertigo Acid: again you had nothing to say and good for you, you still got your post count up by one.

yes, i wanted to find out if there where enouph people here that would stick with btx to make it worth a companies time to make atx boards, sice I am are not all powerfull like you, I had to ask people. As I have previously stated, I didnt want to go back and forth about if btx is better, atx works for me, the change only cost me more $ it doesnt help me. my p3 was atx in this case, and my p4 is atx in this case, and yeah i had to get another psu, that was fine with me.

so if I got a bunch of people that where sticking atx, then Id know I wasnt a minoroty on that and there would be a continued market for atx. And if there was such gathering of people then we could talk about what to do to be sure that companies know there is a furtehr demand for atx.


but aparently everyone but me and a hand full of others see's the light, that btx is the best thing to happen to the planet since the termenal miocean event.


so again fuck off go crap some one elces thread or pm me and come over her and say that shit to my face, chuckle at my poor grammer, and tell me Im pointless in person, and my thread that your crapping must have been a joke. (do it man it will be fun for everyoe)
 
Your posts aren't meaningless, it's just hard to find useful stuff among all the invective. :p

Anyhow, SuperATX assumes a level of modded-ness that may or may not be acceptable to a lot of people. Also, ducts generally assume one (two in hardcore cases) fan each, so base spec would wind up with, what, four fans? Two ducts, one exhaust or intake, and the PSU fan. Bit much.

I dunno, BTX still looks like a stopgap measure to solve a specific problem. ATX was created to add flexibility from AT, and is accordingly nice to use. Just from LOOKING at prelim BTX spec, it could make working on our computers a major pain in the ass, simply because some stuff (memory, CPU) wouldn't be accessible without removing other components. It's bad enough when a motherboard is just cramped and you have to pull your graphics card to change out RAM modules, but being forced to pull stuff to do anything in the CPU socket area will be quite vexing.

BTX is an improvement over ATX for cooling of computers which never get opened, but if I'm looking at it right, it also means that more dust will get to the CPU and graphics card even faster than now. It sucks for us geeks.
 
No plans here for a while, I'll wait and see if BTX takes off.
No sense jumping on a lame duck.
 
I like big cases. I don't want a btx case. Isn't intel pushing btx because they are moving towards ddr2 and adding another serious heat source? Tempests and teacups and all that.
 
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