blue-ray media backup ? outdated ?

ghat

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hi

There is a program called DVDISASTER which can write ECC enabled optical media. I have been backing up my home videos on BDR/BDR-LTH media assuming that BDR's are here to stay for a while... (they have the best archival structure) . I use dvdisaster, so I can save about 18GB of data on each BDR. Which is not too bad for 1080p/30p content.

For the gurus on the forum, when do you think BDR's will get outdated, and if they get outdated what would be a good long term storage alternative to them...

G
 

ghat

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if you read the details, you will see that Delkin DVD's are probably as good as standard Blu-ray discs..
They have what they call a 'hard coat' on blurays which gives them more life compared to DVD's
also DVD's are limited to 9GB/disk, whereas bluray would be 25-100GB a disk.
most videocams have 50+GB of storage, so one should look for media of that size or so... I dont think UHD will be common in consumer video at least for 5-10 years. We will be limited to 1080p/30p or at most 60p, which would stay under 128GB (SDXC) sizes.
I hope some long term storage media survives in the next decade...
G
 

Fritingo

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A bit late coming into this thread, but if you need long term data storage, regular DVDs or Blu-Rays are an affordable choice. Spending hundreds on "archival" type media is simply a waste; you just don't know if they will last longer than cheap media.

If you want "guaranteed" relatively long term storage, go for an affordable tape drive. You can find starter USB & SAS tape drives (using the "DAT/DDS" tape format) from between $300 & $500 from vendors such as Quantum, HP, IBM, Fujitsu & Tandberg. More expensive than DVD/Blu-ray drives, of course, but more reliable.

The tapes, on the other hand, are relatively affordable. Again, not quite as affordable as regular DVD (or BluRay) media, but decent. For example, you can get a DAT 72 (72 GB) tape for less than $20. Which works out to $0.27 per gigabyte or less. Not as affordable as a no-name DVD-R ($0.05 to $0.10 a gigabyte), but far (far) more reliable. And less than half the price per GB of those example Delkin DVDs.

DAT 160 (160 GB) drives are a slight bit more expensive, but have higher capacity and allow you to use smaller DAT 72 tapes as well. Both DAT 72 & DAT 160 drives also are compatible with yet smaller DDS-4 (40 GB) tapes. And DAT 72 drives can go down to DDS-3 (24 GB) tapes...heh.
 

Fritingo

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also DVD's are limited to 9GB/disk, whereas bluray would be 25-100GB a disk.
Actually normal DVDs have a max capacity of 4.7GB per disc. Only "double-layer" DVDs allow up to 9 GB and good luck finding a computer writer of those. Regular Blu-Ray recordables (and the only affordable ones) are 25GB per disc. Double-layer Blu-ray recordables are 50 GB and are similarly priced to (more reliable) DAT 72 tapes.
 

Xinmosni

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Actually normal DVDs have a max capacity of 4.7GB per disc. Only "double-layer" DVDs allow up to 9 GB and good luck finding a computer writer of those.
^ Are you serious with the underlined or just out of touch?

Almost all DVD-ROMs nowadays burn both single and dual layer DVDs. Moreover, if you have a Bluray writer of any type, chances are it also burns DVD DLs too.

Also, it's Dual Layer, not Double Layer.
 

Fritingo

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^ Are you serious with the underlined or just out of touch?

Almost all DVD-ROMs nowadays burn both single and dual layer DVDs. Moreover, if you have a Bluray writer of any type, chances are it also burns DVD DLs too.

Also, it's Dual Layer, not Double Layer.
Bleh, around here, its referred to as "double". Same difference, dude. Guess it depends on the part of the world you are located.

I made a "serious" (heh) mistake on the drive compatibility, however. Yes, most all modern drives can burn double/dual layer DVDs. I just haven't since the early days of them and encountering the monumental crap blank discs that manufacturers first released for them (since improved). Was also drunk at the time. Thus the erroneous comment came out.

Sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities.
 

ghat

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tape drive/tapes... well... cant comment as I dont have good experience recovering from them...
I would really like to see a 128GB blu-ray kind of media in some sort of housing..
128GB with ECC correction => 100GB a disk. @US$ 5/piece

its still at $40/piece for a 100GB BDXL and the optical media is already showing signs of extinction...

so really not sure where we are headed...

G
 

Xinmosni

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tape drive/tapes... well... cant comment as I dont have good experience recovering from them...
I would really like to see a 128GB blu-ray kind of media in some sort of housing..
128GB with ECC correction => 100GB a disk. @US$ 5/piece

its still at $40/piece for a 100GB BDXL and the optical media is already showing signs of extinction...

so really not sure where we are headed...

G
If current trends are any indication, we're headed towards cloud storage (on an enterprise level) and cheaper HDD storage (for average joe consumers). That is, if Bluray media prices continue to stagnate as they have for the past few years...

EDIT: Also, Bluray is on the verge of extinction because of upcoming 4K and 8K being too big for Bluray to support. Might want to keep this in mind before deciding to archive all your stuff on what will soon be DVD-R status.
 
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brian770

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glad i found this thred, i just ordered a 25 pack of the dvd's, i have well over 10,000 picks on the comp, and usualy burn a few disk a year to back them up. i like the idea of a very long life dvd. thanks for the link.
 

MaDSpartus

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I can't belive im reading this thread. I bought 3tb drives at christmas for $80 canadian. I could get them for $100 today. It's like 3 cents a gigabyte right now. What media is cheaper than that and even comes close to the convenience of reusable and huge storage like a HDD?

Why on earth would I store anything on optical media if it wasnt to give it away or something. Back up your data to a seperate harddrive and store it off site.

I can't belive a suggestion like a "72 GB tape for $20, you just need to buy a $400 tape drive first", are even considered any more. how is that anywhere near as economical or convenient as a USB3 HDD
 

ghat

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I can't belive im reading this thread. I bought 3tb drives at christmas for $80 canadian. I could get them for $100 today. It's like 3 cents a gigabyte right now. What media is cheaper than that and even comes close to the convenience of reusable and huge storage like a HDD?

Why on earth would I store anything on optical media if it wasnt to give it away or something. Back up your data to a seperate harddrive and store it off site.

I can't belive a suggestion like a "72 GB tape for $20, you just need to buy a $400 tape drive first", are even considered any more. how is that anywhere near as economical or convenient as a USB3 HDD
Well, we have not discovered a "backup media" as good as "plain old paper" yet with all this high density data floating around. Well I am setting up a Media server with 2 huge partitions/pools on ZFS to have 2 copies of my 'archival storage' data. However if my house/garage burns down then I dont have an offsite backup. I hence store 2 levels of off site backup. one at a friends house and another at my other home out of town. off site backups are a mix of OD's and portable HDD's but the OD's (with ECC) have a longer life and reliability compared to HDD's. (you see a OD just has the media, on a HDD you have too many electronic components, mechanical components and magnetic storage, which means there is a bigger risk of failure if you try to read the portable HDD after 10-20 years in storage.

I hence feel OD's are still a "GOOD" backup medium. The only problem is we are not sure if the technology will stay or not. Ideally would like it to stay with about 128GB disks...
but you see the "corporations" would like to harness all our personal data and use it for their own benefit, so they would rather like us use "cloud backups" than us storing our data on our own media.

G
 

ghat

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EDIT: Also, Bluray is on the verge of extinction because of upcoming 4K and 8K being too big for Bluray to support. Might want to keep this in mind before deciding to archive all your stuff on what will soon be DVD-R status.
We will see 1Gbps google fiber like connections coming up in another 4-5 years and
the MPAA/RIAA etc bandwagon of companies will shift to using online delivery for high def content (as they can fully control that), and low def DVD and bluray will still stay as it is with prices dropping down to a level they can be still marginally profitable. I dont think they will ever release 4K 8K content on media, only to be recirculated again on the internet.
The ODD media business seems to be directed towards extinction, but we may probably have some enterprise backup still left... especially the type used by museums who want to archive for much longer times...
 

Fritingo

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I can't belive a suggestion like a "72 GB tape for $20, you just need to buy a $400 tape drive first", are even considered any more. how is that anywhere near as economical or convenient as a USB3 HDD
Heh. "Economical" isn't the only consideration for reliable backups ;).

off site backups are a mix of OD's and portable HDD's but the OD's (with ECC) have a longer life and reliability compared to HDD's. (you see a OD just has the media, on a HDD you have too many electronic components, mechanical components and magnetic storage, which means there is a bigger risk of failure if you try to read the portable HDD after 10-20 years in storage.
I used to think that too. I have literally hundreds of backup DVDs (and CDs) floating around here. If commercial software DVDs can still be read years later, DVD writables should be just as reliable, right?

Wrong. Writable discs use dyes to record data, unlike commercial discs which are pressed from a glass master. Those dyes become unstable over time and can result in lost data. I have tons of written CDs from over a decade ago that are completely unreadable now (data errors, etc.). And/or can only be read partially. As well as DVDs with similar problems. And they were all stored in climate controlled areas.

How stable a dye is on a particular disc is always a giant question mark. Taiyo Yuden from Japan (can be found on JVC branded discs here in North America currently, etc.) have long been considered the best dye manufacturer. And you can get them for a fraction of the price of those unknown longevity "Delkin" discs.

These days for removable backups I mainly use tape, which has a proven long term reliability record. I don't consider DVD backups older than about 5 years to be something to rely on. Heck, some crap disc dyes start degrading even before that.
 
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ghat

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Wrong. Writable discs use dyes to record data, unlike commercial discs which are pressed from a glass master. Those dyes become unstable over time and can result in lost data. I have tons of written CDs from over a decade ago that are completely unreadable now (data errors, etc.). And/or can only be read partially. As well as DVDs with similar problems. And they were all stored in climate controlled areas.

How stable a dye is on a particular disc is always a giant question mark. Taiyo Yuden from Japan (can be found on JVC branded discs here in North America currently, etc.) have long been considered the best dye manufacturer. And you can get them for a fraction of the price of those unknown longevity "Delkin" discs.

These days for removable backups I manly use tape, which has a proven long term reliability record. I don't consider DVD backups older than about 5 years to be something to rely on. Heck, some crap disc dyes start degrading even before that.
Well I do know that.... thats why I have a spindle of Taiyo_Yuden 100 DVD's lying in my office here in front of me. I initially bought them for photo archival...
I have hence moved to BDR-LTH as the Blurays have a hard coat unlike DVD discs...
also I can store about 18GB per disc after ECC with dvdisaster...
I guess I have to read them every 2-4 years once to make sure they are still intact.

G
 

Cube

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Nooo optical disc are still one of the best backup devices as long as there is disc readers and PC around that will use them. but that can be said for anything I have a tape drive back up but long since lost the tape drive and would have to find a working ditto tape drive and a pc with a port to plug it in and the right OS to read it lucky I don't need the tape drive since I made other copies of the tapes on CD-rs.

I use DVDs and blurays to back up my most important data because it cant be over written (don't use dvd-rw/bluray-rw ETC) and dvds with good die last like 90 years in age test. I make more than one copy of the disc and put them away in a dark water proof contaner and other places.

Blurays are the best since they are all armor coated to or archive cd/DVD that are gold plated and armor coated. DVD-rw don't last as long over time either

If you buy DVD-R with crap die it will not last years though. AZO DVD dye is good stuff if you get them from the right factory don't be ruff with the disc.

I use some nand flash drives like corsair survivors too since they are extra tuff but flash ram is just as bad as DVD-r dye at holding on to data over long long time same with magnectic storage. Just make copes of the DVDS blurays ever few years its fine. burn 2 copies on 2 good brands at the first time of back up or more if it is extra important. you might even want to store one copy somewhere else out of your house too.

these are the 3 most common dye types.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azo_compound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanine


and if the DVDISASTER software is needed to rebuild the ECC part of the disc after something goes wrong then who says that will be supported on every PC type and OS down the road either? so I question it's value over the long run.
 
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Gravey

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I still use DVDs to archive short videos and pictures.

Budget wise I use AZO but for the priceless family photots/videos I use MDisc (Make sure you drive supports it).

You can boil that disc, dip it ln2 and it will still work afterwards lol.
 

PGHammer

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Actually normal DVDs have a max capacity of 4.7GB per disc. Only "double-layer" DVDs allow up to 9 GB and good luck finding a computer writer of those. Regular Blu-Ray recordables (and the only affordable ones) are 25GB per disc. Double-layer Blu-ray recordables are 50 GB and are similarly priced to (more reliable) DAT 72 tapes.
Actually, DL compatibility is both commonplace and cheap, especially among the Usual Suspects (Samsung, Lite-ON, Pioneer) - while Samsung has apparently exited the internal optical drive business, they made several DL-compliant OEM drives (such as the SH-222/SH-223/SH-223B), and Lite-ON and Pioneer still do. A quick peek at MicroCenter's Rockville, MD webfront shows nine at $50USD or less - with the last (Pioneer's DBC-207D) capable of reading BDs as well. (However, Pioneer's DBC-208D can burn BD media - and costs no more.)
I personally own the SH-223B and can verify the DL capabilty - the reason I have not taken more advantage of it is the price/availability of DL media, not the drive.
 

jedispork

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Hello Everyone,

I have been researching this topic and registered to make a post on this thread. Sorry for the long post but I am long winded. First I wanted to say that I agree having at least 3 copies of your data is important regardless of what you use. While hdd's seem to be getting larger and cheaper I want a better option. Although I wouldn't say unreliable they simply don't seem great for archival which for me makes all that extra space irrelevant.

M-Discs have rejuvenated my interest in optical media and will be my primary backup until something better comes out. The company claims its a rock like writing layer. If their claims are even partially true it should be vastly better for archival than anything else out right now. They also have a bluray version on the way. The backups of my primary backup will be on bd-r for now and stored at another location along with my photos uploaded on flickr. Once the m-disc bluray comes out I will be able to consolidate my backup. I can do my backup on around 10 dvd -r and I think for a lot of people 25 gb blurays would be a great modern option.

I also wanted to mention how I organize my files. Photos are the main thing I backup. I went through all of mine and deleted any poor or boring photos and added tags to the photos I like so they are easier to find. Then I put them into directories with a max of 500 photos or sometimes by size so it fits on a dvd. With the completed directory I create a parity set. This helps me to do incremental backups without resorting old pics.

I don't plan to purchase anymore hdd's and would like to get by with a few small ssd's and use flickr to access my photos. I have considered flash drives as well but they are unreliable too and I could just make more disc copies. The reasonably priced flash drives aren't much larger than a bd-r right now. Maybe they would work well for storing ecc data.

thanks for reading
 
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Spazturtle

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I would go with getting 3 1TB 2.5" HDDs, and cycle them for backup where at least 2 are in separate secure locations like a fireproof box, keep one at home, one at work and one plugged in for backup.

Then swap which one is being used for backup every time you update the backup.
 

jedispork

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even if you use hdds its still good to create parity files and maybe something like beyond compare to make sure the files copied properly. I feel more comfortable knowing I can check to make sure the files are intact. Maybe zfs will help some if it ever becomes standard.
 

JayteeBates

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LTO-4 works great for us here at work. Reliable, portable and lasts forever. The 48 tape libraries are full-retard expensive but a single tape drive isn't that terrible.
 

Gomar

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when do you think BDR's will get outdated, and if they get outdated what would be a good long term storage alternative to them...
G
Best storage is an external HDD, stored in a safe at the bank. A 1TB goes for $69 at worst Buy.

I still see 100mb ZIP disks for sale and a box of floppies at J and R. I used to see JAZ drives and SparQ and ORB there, but no more. 700mb are going strong.
It is not the media, but the drive you have to worry about. Also, I dont expect USB drives to be replaced(though I use SD cards instead).
 

Gomar

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Actually normal DVDs have a max capacity of 4.7GB per disc.
pardon, I could only get 4.36GB on my DVDs. However, you do get the full 25GB on BDs.

And my 500GB HDD shows up as 465GB.
 

Gomar

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I can't belive im reading this thread. how is that anywhere near as economical or convenient as a USB3 HDD
Thumbs up from me.
However, I almost accidentally deleted some files from my ext.hdd, ifcourse DVDs are not erasable. I make backups of photos, give them to relatives, so I in fact have some 5 copies in 2 states +2 at the bank.
 

ep0x73

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pardon, I could only get 4.36GB on my DVDs. However, you do get the full 25GB on BDs.

And my 500GB HDD shows up as 465GB.
Once you format the BD you get more like 22.3 just as with DVD's that are 4.7 you only get 4.35.
 

Ryokurin

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Best storage is an external HDD, stored in a safe at the bank. A 1TB goes for $69 at worst Buy.

I still see 100mb ZIP disks for sale and a box of floppies at J and R. I used to see JAZ drives and SparQ and ORB there, but no more. 700mb are going strong.
It is not the media, but the drive you have to worry about. Also, I dont expect USB drives to be replaced(though I use SD cards instead).
Unless you are occasionally going to the bank to spin it up I wouldn't do that. I've ran into too many people who've done that and come to find out 6-7 years later the drive won't spin up or they forgot it was IDE and they no longer have a machine that will read them.
 

Gomar

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they forgot it was IDE and they no longer have a machine that will read them.
I dont think there are any 1TB HDDs for $69 that are IDE, all are USB.

Yes, maybe some day USB wont be used anymore, replaced by wireless perhaps.
But with so many USB devices, by that time HDDs will be 10TB, so moving your old stash of t orn from an 10GB IDE, or 700mb CD-Rs wont be an issue.
 

pbassjunk

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hi

There is a program called DVDISASTER which can write ECC enabled optical media. I have been backing up my home videos on BDR/BDR-LTH media assuming that BDR's are here to stay for a while... (they have the best archival structure) . I use dvdisaster, so I can save about 18GB of data on each BDR. Which is not too bad for 1080p/30p content.

For the gurus on the forum, when do you think BDR's will get outdated, and if they get outdated what would be a good long term storage alternative to them...

G
Can you briefly explain how to use DVDisaster? Also using BR. None of the HowTos actually explain anything afaict, more a philosophical discussion.

Do we create an ISO of whatever it is we want to back up (like in cdburnerxp or something), but don't burn it.. load the ISO into DVDisaster, create .ecc, and then burn both of those files to the disc? (not imported as an image, but basically a disc w/ only 2 files on it)
 

caddys83

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Bleh, around here, its referred to as "double". Same difference, dude. Guess it depends on the part of the world you are located.

I made a "serious" (heh) mistake on the drive compatibility, however. Yes, most all modern drives can burn double/dual layer DVDs. I just haven't since the early days of them and encountering the monumental crap blank discs that manufacturers first released for them (since improved). Was also drunk at the time. Thus the erroneous comment came out.

Sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities.
Where is this "around here"
 
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