Bitcoin Has Passed $4,000

aaronspink said:
What? that literally 75% of the value of bitcoin is in the illegitimate criminal use? Or that the rest is in people playing craps? Just because it is antique, doesn't mean it isn't true. The reality is that cryptocurrencies serve no legitimate purpose: No consumer would use them instead of other available systems unless they are doing it to do things that are illegal and not allowed by the legitimate monetary systems which actually have significant safe guards and reversibility.

It is only an issue of time before bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are blackballed from the international monetary markets and then it will be worth basically nothing.
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The situation with BTC really is wild. I'm a bit annoyed that I transferred 0.2 BTC that I had to an altcoin a few months ago when BTC was in the 1,500 range and figured it would be heading down as it normally did in its typical fluctuations. That altcoin later dropped a small amount in cash value when BTC dropped significantly, but didn't seem to rebound the same way when BTC began to climb again even from 2000 up to the current 4000 etc, where such prices were normally pegged to BTC's rise and fall more closely.

BTC itself is an anomaly and it, along with many knockoffs like Litecoin, have basically gotten away from their possibility to be used as currency as originally intended. The blockchain and the way that transactions are processed, notably the "Fee" requirement, was tiny in the days when 1 BTC was only around a dollar etc.. but when a single instance of the currency is worth 4000 then even a "standard" transaction fee, especially on a small purchase could still be more significant in value than PayPal / credit card fees in terms of raw USD value. This pretty much locks most blockchain assets into being a commodity more than anything, not really a "currency". The real question is what comes next and what is viable. It seems the entire crypto-asset market has switched from, with a few exceptions like Dash, "currency" focused coins to those more like Etherium which are not set up as currencies but instead some sort of distributed work unit - stuff like NEO and NEM (which basically seem like Chinese / Asian backed ETH knockoffs). I have to wonder if Etherium really has a future for "normal' users in the same way BTC theoretically could have, or if it will be something basically for website/service developers exclusively and even at that - is it worth it? What sort of blockchain assets and coins are worth investing in for the future? I was looking into MaidSafe which seemed unique in the fact it was awarded based not traditional mining but instead on storage, and was used to build a more equitable/private/secure Internet, but it doesn't seem to have come along as quickly as I'd hoped and I can't remember if it was actually an asset generated by another asset (Etherium? Augur? Golem? )

A longer discussion I'll take to the mining/cryptocurrency sub forum but it seems that there's a lot of new activity and investment in BTC and others, but the question is wondering how to proceed without sinking a lot of cash. I'm thinking of getting back into mining, particularly on my 1070 and/or Vega when it arrives especially if it is as amazing as certain projections suggest. In any event it could be an exciting time, but I have to lament that these currencies that were ostensibly set up to do some good, offer lower cost and better privacy in access to finance (and in some cases, act in a decentralized manner) but it seems that they instead have become yet another commodity at best and Tulip Bulb at worst, which make the wealthy wealthier by playing the game and while a few people make a bit of cash by being in the right place at the right time, its in some ways not much different than day trading or playing penny stocks in terms of volatility. And this is of course without big traditional finance (ie Wall Street and China) who are just getting very interested in blockchain assets and looking for ways to leverage this tech in ways that continue their often pathogenic schemes and are unlikely to trickle down (an ever laughable notion) to the common man. I know some people will say this is the nature of the beast in finance, but lets remember that Bitcoin and at least some of these cryptos/assets were designed to break those paradigms and start something different, equitable, and better for society - in this way, it seems that either they fell far too short or perhaps the right asset hasnt' "made it" yet.
 
I'm surprised some of you are getting your panties in a bunch about how crypto is being used. I'm guessing you haven't heard that crooks also use regular CASH MONEY as well. If there is value in a thing, crooks will trade in it.

For me personally, I've been called right wing, don't smoke or drink (okay maybe just a little) and I watch and trade crypto.

Why?

Not because I want to buy pot or coke or guns or hire hitmen or whatever ... it's because like most people, I like money and as I get older, hey everyone's gotta keep their retirement options in mind. Outside of my traditional retirement investment tools, I don't see anything wrong with trading in crypto with my play money. Much easier and without all the fuss of day trading.
 
aaronspink said:
It is only an issue of time before bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are blackballed from the international monetary markets and then it will be worth basically nothing.
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How exactly do you think they'd be blackballed from the international monetary markets? Do you realize that most of the intrigue of bitcoin and crypto currencies is that no one can shut them down? No one person, no government, no EU, no UN.
Id guess the more they'd try the higher it would climb
 
geekebox said:
How exactly do you think they'd be blackballed from the international monetary markets? Do you realize that most of the intrigue of bitcoin and crypto currencies is that no one can shut them down? No one person, no government, no EU, no UN.
Id guess the more they'd try the higher it would climb
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bullshit. 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the value of cryto currencies is in their ability to transfer from and to actual useful currencies. They are used pretty much only as a transactional currency. It is pretty simple and easy for the various governments to make the commercial transfer to and from any or all crypto currencies verboten. Once they do that, anyone actually wanting to play in the monetary markets (basically every financial institution on earth) would have to also blackball transfers. At that point every single crypto coin exchange is basically dead and transferring to/from a crypto currency basically becomes an exercise in carrying a wad of cash.

And if you think a government can't do that, then you are ignorant of the facts because they literally do similar things on a daily basis as part of their efforts to combat crime/terrorism. Bitcoin has never existed in isolation, it needs transfer ability into real backed currencies to have any actual value. That ability to transfer to actual real world currency is what pays for everything in a crypto currency and without it, the whole network dies, there are no miners, there is no security, etc.
 
they cant even stop the flow of physical drugs in prison. you think they can stop the flow of math?

what hubris.
 
aaronspink Does the USA have the global clout to force change to laws regarding Crypto if it really wanted to? Maybe. BUT at this point in time, crypto isn't a big enough political issue to even be considered. It's not even remotely on the right nor the left's agenda.

Also keep in mind, US politics turns left or right on lobbyists. If big money gets into crypto, you can bet K street will get involved. Thus, you're wishful thinking scenario becomes even less and less likely.
 
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dvsman said:
aaronspink Does the USA have the global clout to force change to laws regarding Crypto if it really wanted to? Maybe. BUT at this point in time, crypto isn't a big enough political issue to even be considered. It's not even remotely on the right nor the left's agenda.

Also keep in mind, US politics turns left or right on lobbyists. If big money gets into crypto, you can bet K street will get involved. Thus, you're wishful thinking scenario becomes even less and less likely.
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It's definitely kept a close eye on by the government. One of the features in our forensic tools is tracking cryptocurrency accounts and attempting to trace where transactions are made and link them to criminal behavior. As for the currency itself, the feds aren't actively trying to shut it down yet but I assure you it won't be long until it gets used for some large scale enterprises to skirt taxes and that's when the government will decide to strike.
 
I don't doubt that politicians may at some point give it lip service, but if corporate inversions and foreign tax havens can still exist and used by the largest US companies then the need to fix existing tax laws and loopholes are likely to be a higher priority than crypto, especially since corporate accounting (I assume) is scrutinized to a greater degree than the tax records of a bunch of geeks on a webforum.

From a personal perspective, its not so hard to squirrel away cash over time then convert it to crypto without passing through any bank accounts whatsoever. I had quite a chunk of cash that I had saved - over the course of a year - for my wedding and when that went sideways, I had a stash of cash in hand - which I converted to crypto. I was lazy and bought it through an exchange, but if I was a nefarious villain, I could have done it via a cash transaction and no records would have existed.

Plus the keyword is "criminal behavior" - investing and speculation don't quite qualify as that yet ... though if you cash out, the tax ramifications certainly would.
 
B00nie said:
Bitcoin is boosted by large amounts of drug and cybercrime money laundring. Bitcoin doesn't have any real value except some nutjobs who trade real money for it.

Oh, and the criminals of course who dump millions to it daily to launder money. https://www.coindesk.com/4-billion-russian-man-arrested-alleged-bitcoin-money-laundering-scheme/
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I wanted to say exactly this.

I never really paid attention to bitcoin, but today I learned of some scheme called Bitconnect, where regular people lend money to the Bitconnect "trading bot", and get obscene profits in return.

Of course, there is no transparency. No one knows who runs Bitconnect. All I know is that it was started in southeast Asia. They remain invisible to avoid government intervention, because only shady operations do this shit.
No one knows HOW they trade and make their profits. But they are able to pay users almost 1% DAILY interest, AND guarantee 90% yearly return, which in all other cases is unsustainable.

The ONLY explanation is that they are washing drug money and other illegal money. They're willing to give away 20% back to users in order to quickly wash the money they could not launder fast enough from other methods.
 
M76 said:
That's exactly what's backing currency, the economic power of governments behind it.
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Which is exactly what makes it so volatile. Our government is dysfunctional. We have regulatory capture by big money interests, got rid of Glass Steagall (gee, why would we ever want regulation passed to prevent a 2nd Great Depression?), our infrastructure is falling apart, Congress frequently has the lowest approval rating ever and can't pass much of anything, the average representative doesn't represent the needs of the voter at all, but hey, we are engaging in small wars all over the globe in order to keep the dollar high.

If you want to know why the US dollar maintains its value, it's because that's the currency of OPEC. Oil is priced in dollars. If that goes away, so does a lot of the USD's value. It's entrenchment and military presence that is keeping the dollar afloat, it's sure as hell not our government's stability, on the contrary, we're turning into a Banana Republic as fast as we can.

Meanwhile, the only rules regarding bitcoin are math equations, you can't really cheat on that. Compared to how we're running the world, that continues to look damn attractive to a lot of investors.
 
tetris42 said:
Which is exactly what makes it so volatile. Our government is dysfunctional. We have regulatory capture by big money interests, got rid of Glass Steagall (gee, why would we ever want regulation passed to prevent a 2nd Great Depression?), our infrastructure is falling apart, Congress frequently has the lowest approval rating ever and can't pass much of anything, the average representative doesn't represent the needs of the voter at all, but hey, we are engaging in small wars all over the globe in order to keep the dollar high.

If you want to know why the US dollar maintains its value, it's because that's the currency of OPEC. Oil is priced in dollars. If that goes away, so does a lot of the USD's value. It's entrenchment and military presence that is keeping the dollar afloat, it's sure as hell not our government's stability, on the contrary, we're turning into a Banana Republic as fast as we can.

Meanwhile, the only rules regarding bitcoin are math equations, you can't really cheat on that. Compared to how we're running the world, that continues to look damn attractive to a lot of investors.
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And yet if the country's economy collapses, cryptocurrency goes down with it. it's kind of a lose/lose in my opinion which is why I stick with my less fake currency.
 
NickJames said:
And yet if the country's economy collapses, cryptocurrency goes down with it. it's kind of a lose/lose in my opinion which is why I stick with my less fake currency.
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Well no, if anything, the value of bitcoin might even rise in the event of the country's economy collapsing, due to its systemic stability. I mean if the USA's economy went to hell, but China or Russia's was staying afloat, I don't see why cryptocurrency wouldn't retain value also.

I do think it's hard to make an argument that it's a stable currency, but rather an investment medium. A better analogy to it would be gold, just with less history and universal application. The more economically unstable things are, the more gold is worth, and vice-versa.

The only way I would see cryptocurrency collapsing would be one of the following:
1. The whole global economy collapses, in which case things are kind of post apocalyptic anyway.
2. There's an unforeseen exploit or shortcoming that can't be reconciled, making everyone lose confidence in it (certainly possible with things like the forks, Mt. Gox etc. but so far so good).
3. Everyone just simultaneously decides it has no real value and stops using it. I think this one is unlikely due to the anonymity advantages, less manipulation by banks and governments, plus it looks MORE stable than current economic systems. The more realistic scenario is here is a SPECIFIC cryptocurrency loses value over another, but probably not as a whole.
4. All major nations decide to outlaw it (I guess is possible, but not terribly likely).
5. We magically fix global economics to make it work for everyone on a solid, stable system (and we all get to ride unicorns).
 
tetris42 said:
So what exactly are the rules of the modern economy that give stability? Allowing banks to gamble with everything then taxpayers bailing them out? And who exactly is changing anything?

Cryptocurrency isn't the problem, it's only valued so high because everything else is so volatile. If our economy was rock solid, it would be worth as much as Monopoly money.
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Don't know your history do you? It needs to be backed by something of value.

Dutch tulip bulb crash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
 
geekebox said:
How exactly do you think they'd be blackballed from the international monetary markets? Do you realize that most of the intrigue of bitcoin and crypto currencies is that no one can shut them down? No one person, no government, no EU, no UN.
Id guess the more they'd try the higher it would climb
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Are you saying the governments of the world can't make a law outlawing all banks from monetary exchanges with known bitcoin houses? Why do you think the government is registering all these clearing houses/exchanges?

Where do you think the money comes from to pay for bitcoins? Thin air? What do you intend to pay bitcoin with after the government outlaws banks from taking/giving payment for it? Good intentions?

In case you haven't noticed, the government likes to track every little thing they can about our monetary lives. Do you think they will give up monetary control just so you can hide what you are buying? Why do you think places like Amazon capitulated and supplied tax money to the state governments? It's only a matter of time before they consider it a threat either to national security or economic security.

Even in PA now they are considering banning it through legislation. We have to pay those over inflated teachers pensions somehow.

Blah ha ha ha ha ha
 
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Maybe I'm just too ignorant but I always associate cryptocurrencies with crime.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Are you saying the governments of the world can't make a law outlawing all banks from monetary exchanges with known bitcoin houses? Why do you think the government is registering all these clearing houses/exchanges?

Where do you think the money comes from to pay for bitcoins? Thin air? What do you intend to pay bitcoin with after the government outlaws banks from taking/giving payment for it? Good intentions?

In case you haven't noticed, the government likes to track every little thing they can about our monetary lives. Do you think they will give up monetary control just so you can hide what you are buying? Why do you think places like Amazon capitulated and supplied tax money to the state governments? It's only a matter of time before they consider it a threat either to national security or economic security.

Even in PA now they are considering banning it through legislation. We have to pay those over inflated teachers pensions somehow.

Blah ha ha ha ha ha
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Im simply saying...Bitcoin...would find a way..
 
odditory said:
Yeah its like every movie where there's a bank robbery or drug deal and someone's carrying a duffelbag full of cryptocoins.
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Every single movie involving crime wherein the criminals demand "unmarked" bills?
 
odditory said:
Yeah its like every movie where there's a bank robbery or drug deal and someone's carrying a duffelbag full of cryptocoins.
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The difference is that money is used primarily for normal trade where Bitcoin is primarily criminal. Also Bitcoin is completely imaginary. If the encryption gets cracked one day, all of Bitcoin loses 100% of it's value in a second.
 
my money is morally superior to your money

my money's kid made the honor roll
 
one of the main reasons why i think its associated with crime in peoples' minds is when it was first on the come up several years ago there were so many stories of crypto-hacks that would ransom everyone from elderly to hospitals's information in exchange for bitcoin.

that said, i dont think its that bad an idea to mine... i'd like to know how to get started... got a 1070 i can put to work.... i just need a walkthrough guide for new mining dummies.... =x
 
badcookies said:
one of the main reasons why i think its associated with crime in peoples' minds is when it was first on the come up several years ago there were so many stories of crypto-hacks that would ransom everyone from elderly to hospitals's information in exchange for bitcoin.

that said, i dont think its that bad an idea to mine... i'd like to know how to get started... got a 1070 i can put to work.... i just need a walkthrough guide for new mining dummies.... =x
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Try looking into Nicehash. Good for starters.
I downloaded Clymore miner, set up a wallet at myetherwallet, then edited the start file to include the pool (ethermine) i was going to mine on and my wallet address and away you go. In simplified terms. Oh and speed up fans, and overlock/undervolt with MSI afterburn
 
Cryptocurrency is now part of my investment portfolio. The extremely, highly, incredibly risk part, but a part nonetheless.
 
Wasn't Bitcoin something like $0.008 per when it launched? I should have dropped $1000 from a quarterly bonus back when I was still getting those. Hindsight and all...
 
rive22 said:
So bogus I used to sell all the BTC's I was mining for like a hundred bucks a pop just a few years ago. And I know you other guys who got in the game earlier are even more pissed.

Actually what pisses me off is I would have kept mining if mining machine manufacturers weren't selling preorders and mining with those machines the whole time and then dumping them by the time they were useless. Although it turns out those who did mine anyway, if they saved, they are rich now.
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Hard to say any average person would be rich because at $700, I would have sold it off. I'm sure many people have already sold off their coins after the crashes/hacks. Only the big miners with dedicated spaces are in it for the long term.
I never mined, but I will wait until the next coming lull to jump in to study it more. Start off with cheap stuff until I learn or deicide it's not for me.
 
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