Best racing sim for PC

Khanmots said:
Speaking of clutching...

I'm with jonneymendoza in that I'd find it easier to use the shifter than the paddles; sequential shifting always gets me confused whenever I try it in a console racing game. If I were to get into a racing sim, I'd really want a nice non-sequential 6-speed (as that's what I drive in RL)

Now, for my question. Being that I'm a complete noob to racing sims... how well do they model clutch mechanics? If I were to shell out the money for say a G25, would I be dissapointed? I'd want the game to have at least some difference apparent when you do/don't double clutch (in appropriate situations of course... say shifting from 5th to 2nd) ... when you do/don't rev match... when you do/don't heel-toe on a braking entry to a corner...

Or is that level of realism beyond the sims (and controls?) of today?

Also... are there racing sims focused on street-legal cars? Or is that a racing game-only domain? I'd much rather game with something that I might own someday... and I'm never going to own a F1 :p

Or would I be best off saving my money and going to a (semi) local track instead? :(
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i find it piss easy to use the gearbox to change gears. pressing buttons to change a gear is too much of a hassle because say if im in gear 5 and want to come down to gear 2, i have to bloody keep pressing teh gear down button till i reach 2 but in a gearbox i can simply go straight to gear 2 easily.

seriously though a g25 wheel is worth the money and more. it realy emulates you driving a car. i should know has i drive a car for real. i dont drive a fast car like in lfs, rfactor etc BUT the way you change gears with the clutch is exactly like real life. i feel as if im actualy controling a car not a toy.

im slowly getting better in rfactor and am enjoying the experience. i took off ABS and now i am driving much better due to me having better control over my breaking. i use to hammer the break pedel and the car would gradualy break for you(ABS) but now i can do that myself and have better control of my breaking

besides play soccer games on my xbox 360, my 360 doesnt get a sniff out of me that much anymore. and theirs me thinking pc dont have any good racing games. if you care to read thsi whole 6 posts you will find that PC is FARRR superior in the racing genre compared to consoles.
 
Creates a null space around the wheel's center where input is discarded. I percent or two is ok if you are having trouble with on-center feel, but anything more and it's too easy for you to get behind the steering and you get into the hospital-wobble :)



jonneymendoza said:
hehe i dont understand the deadzone thing? what is it and its purpose?
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Well put, actually :)



4saken said:
Its not. Like i said there are many SIM Racing(not DIRT), games that are good at different things, which is why it requires discussion.

These games are technical, not "arcadey" like Dirt, PGR, Forza, etc.

If you are serious about finding a good racing sim game, then you would read. If you arent, then you arent cut out to play sim type racing games anyway. As they require patience and practice. Such as reading 6 pages of a thread to get good information.

A poll also would not have listed all of the games the OP didnt know about. Such as iRacing, Live for Speed, etc. He was inquiring into that as well.

Take a chill pill and make your own thread with a poll if u want to find out the best "racing" games.
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jonneymendoza said:
i find it piss easy to use the gearbox to change gears. pressing buttons to change a gear is too much of a hassle because say if im in gear 5 and want to come down to gear 2, i have to bloody keep pressing teh gear down button till i reach 2 but in a gearbox i can simply go straight to gear 2 easily.
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But most race cars above a certain level don't have helical gear boxes, so even cars that have an 'H' pattern shifter don't "require" a clutch for gear changes. And race cars w/o sequential gear boxes are getting fewer and farther between above the club / spec series races.

Plus dropping through the gears like that helps slow the car down and keep it stable;

Very rarely do you see them drop from 6th right in to 2nd-
http://www.audiworld.members.winisp.net/MtPanorama_lap_footwell.wmv


jonneymendoza said:
seriously though a g25 wheel is worth the money and more. it realy emulates you driving a car. i should know has i drive a car for real. i dont drive a fast car like in lfs, rfactor etc BUT the way you change gears with the clutch is exactly like real life. i feel as if im actualy controling a car not a toy.
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g25 is a really good wheel. I have a friend who adores his right up until he heel and toes (pedals are too far apart for him)...but overall, great wheel.

But how does having an 'H' patter manual trump a sequential for reality? I've got a 6 speed manual Audi and a "chick"tronic Land Rover which in "sport mode" allows a flip of the gear lever for sequential gearing. I work with a gentleman who owns a Ferrari F430 with a paddle based sequential gear box. Just like driving a manual, getting used to paddle sequential takes a little time, but it does allow you to left foot brake. :)

jonneymendoza said:
im slowly getting better in rfactor and am enjoying the experience. i took off ABS and now i am driving much better due to me having better control over my breaking. i use to hammer the break pedel and the car would gradualy break for you(ABS) but now i can do that myself and have better control of my breaking
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good ol' threshold braking. :)

Just for giggles some videos of a couple of games in question

GTR2;
Just a little run down the first sector at Monza in WMV HD
http://www.julie.members.winisp.net/30secondsToMonza.wmv

GTR2;
Just a little curb hopping at the first chicane at Monza;
http://www.julie.members.winisp.net/MonzaRettifilo.wmv

LFS;
Some unintentional stunt driving after patch S I think it was;
http://www.generationxwing.members.winisp.net/LFS/MRT_FernBayGrn.wmv

Don't have any up of rFactor right now..
 
4saken said:
Its not. Like i said there are many SIM Racing(not DIRT), games that are good at different things, which is why it requires discussion.

These games are technical, not "arcadey" like Dirt, PGR, Forza, etc.

If you are serious about finding a good racing sim game, then you would read. If you arent, then you arent cut out to play sim type racing games anyway. As they require patience and practice. Such as reading 6 pages of a thread to get good information.

A poll also would not have listed all of the games the OP didnt know about. Such as iRacing, Live for Speed, etc. He was inquiring into that as well.

Take a chill pill and make your own thread with a poll if u want to find out the best "racing" games.
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Well... I don't know about having to read a lot of stuff, but patience is needed, patience and a lot of nerves.

TechLarry said:
Well put, actually :)
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Sort of... sort of... :p
 
der_jackal said:
But most race cars above a certain level don't have helical gear boxes, so even cars that have an 'H' pattern shifter don't "require" a clutch for gear changes. And race cars w/o sequential gear boxes are getting fewer and farther between above the club / spec series races.
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Yeah... and while I can't speak for the other guy, but the race cars aren't what I'm thinking about getting into racing sims for... I'm never going to be able to be able to afford one of those :p

Now, would I eventually change my mind and want to start messing wtih stuff that does have sequential shifting? Who knows... but at least initially that's not what's interesting me.

Just seems like I'm looking to get something different out of the racing sim than you are... I'm more interested in having it be a transition between driving my car on the street and driving it on the track. I know that I've got a hell of a lot to learn, and I'm thinking that having something that can model what I know how to do now (meaning not much when it comes to real racing) and allow me to focus on learning one thing at a time, with realistic modeling as I go... would be really helpful (not to mention fun)

Although, if your friend is needing to heal-toe with the G25, it sounds like they've got a decent setup going on there... if he flubs his shifting while on the edge of his traction in a hard corner, will it jerk and maybe cause his tires come free? Or is that beyond the scope of the sims?
 
what is heel-toe? im use to breaking with my right foot without any issues.

are their any up and comming racing sim games coming out next year? will their be a rfactor2? gtr3? LFS 2?
 
Khanmots said:
Yeah... and while I can't speak for the other guy, but the race cars aren't what I'm thinking about getting into racing sims for... I'm never going to be able to be able to afford one of those :p

Now, would I eventually change my mind and want to start messing wtih stuff that does have sequential shifting? Who knows... but at least initially that's not what's interesting me.
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See, I'm just the opposite, I'll never be able to afford a 911GT3-RSR, so I'd rather drive one of those around Spa or Hockenheim than my street car.

And there are a lot of high end and regular street cars coming with sequential gear boxes, almost every Ferrari is available w/ their box, Audi's have their DSG system, BMW has their SMG II (more of an automatic, but still).

Khanmots said:
Just seems like I'm looking to get something different out of the racing sim than you are... I'm more interested in having it be a transition between driving my car on the street and driving it on the track. I know that I've got a hell of a lot to learn, and I'm thinking that having something that can model what I know how to do now (meaning not much when it comes to real racing) and allow me to focus on learning one thing at a time, with realistic modeling as I go... would be really helpful (not to mention fun)
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You're exactly like my friend (w/ the g25), he's more interested in running street cars around race tracks than anything. Which is why all he's interested in racing online with Live For Speed.

Live For Speed is probably the closest you'll get to that because about 50% of the cars are "street cars".

Khanmots said:
Although, if your friend is needing to heal-toe with the G25, it sounds like they've got a decent setup going on there... if he flubs his shifting while on the edge of his traction in a hard corner, will it jerk and maybe cause his tires come free? Or is that beyond the scope of the sims?
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Well I dropped from 5th to 2nd on accident one night and it threw my arse end around (as it should). And you shouldn't be shifting mid-corner anyway. ;)
 
jonneymendoza said:
what is heel-toe? im use to breaking with my right foot without any issues.

are their any up and comming racing sim games coming out next year? will their be a rfactor2? gtr3? LFS 2?
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Watch that first video in my previous post, it's a lap around Mt. Panorma in Australia. The shot showing the driver's feet, when he down shifts, you see him roll his right foot to "blip" the throttle before releasing the clutch.

It's to match revs so when you engage the next lower gear it will not bog the engine.
 
der_jackal said:
Live For Speed is probably the closest you'll get to that because about 50% of the cars are "street cars".
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Good to know :)



der_jackal said:
Well I dropped from 5th to 2nd on accident one night and it threw my arse end around (as it should). And you shouldn't be shifting mid-corner anyway. ;)
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mmm... done right it won't. Just gotta get the revs matched (meaning if I'm dropping from 5th into 2nd to go into a cloverleaf at 50ish, I need to rev to 7500ish) Done right it's nice and smooth, and other than revs a passenger wouldn't notice... done wrong (like on accident :D)... not so smooth, and you get your rear end going out (on RWD at least).

der_jackal said:
It's [heel-toe] to match revs so when you engage the next lower gear it will not bog the engine.
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Not exactly... you can rev match without heel-toe. I do it all the time. You're just not going to do it while you brake.

What heel-toe is is operating the brake and the gas at the same time with your right foot only (as nicely shown in that video) so that you're able to simultaniously brake and smoothly downshift (smooth because you're rev-matching). This allows you to brake as late as possible when entering a corner (which means the brakes are still on for the first part of the corner... and you're shifting at this point as well) while also allowing you to make a smooth transition to applying power again without the jerk that'd break your wheels free.

Using the cloverleaf example above... currently I'm not any good at heel-toe, so to enter the cloverleaf I first brake to 50ish, then let off the brake then apply throttle before letting out the clutch and having power again. This introduces a section of time where I'm not using all of my traction... if it wasn't for this dead area I could have started braking later, or applied power sooner and not lost speed. If I was any good at heel-toe, I'd be shifting into 2nd and engaging the clutch either right as I was letting up on the brake... or maybe while I was still deceling (ie, throw it to 8000ish rpm and engage at 55 while I'm still braking).

Anyways, one of the reasons I want to do the racing sim stuff (or the track) is that I know what I want to do, but I'm not wanting to be stupid and try to learn it on the street. And with driving lessons and track time costing what it does, if I could spend $500 on a racing sim setup with enough realism to allow me to work on RL skills, it'd probably save me quite a chunk of change in the long run :p
 
Khanmots said:
mmm... done right it won't. Just gotta get the revs matched (meaning if I'm dropping from 5th into 2nd to go into a cloverleaf at 50ish, I need to rev to 7500ish)
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Going from 5th to 2nd while in a braking zone, nowhere near 50mph, it better snap your arse end around in a RWD car, other wise it's Gran Turismo or PGR. And if you're in 5th heading in to the corner while at 50, you're not pushing the car very hard. ;)

Khanmots said:
Done right it's nice and smooth, and other than revs a passenger wouldn't notice... done wrong (like on accident :D)... not so smooth, and you get your rear end going out (on RWD at least).
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Which is why mine went out, I was walking back through the gears at Les Combs (Spa), meant to go from 5th to 4th, found 2nd...wwhhhheeeee...


Khanmots said:
Not exactly... you can rev match without heel-toe. I do it all the time. You're just not going to do it while you brake.
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Up or down shift? Double clutch or throttle blip? Why would you be downshifting w/o braking?*


Khanmots said:
One of the reasons I want to do the racing sim stuff (or the track) is that I know what I want to do, but I'm not wanting to be stupid and try to learn it on the street. And with driving lessons and track time costing what it does, if I could spend $500 on a racing sim setup with enough realism to allow me to transfer skills to RL, it'd probably save me quite a chunk of change in the long run :p
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It's a nice way to learn some skills, but I think you know there's no replacement for getting out on track days. Find a race shop or local car club that will let you tag along, they usually get about 1/2 off what a "drop" in will.



*Yes there are a few situations where you do this, but they are fairly few and far between and unless the gearing is close enough to do this, you're working the car too hard when the same results could be achieved by other means.
 
Here's a video for you guys:

This is a capture from Papyrus's Grand Prix Legends, one of the most highly praised racing sims of all time. It was not a great seller because it was SO hard and SO realistic. These old Grand Prix cars were absolute monsters to drive, and this Sim simulated every bit of it. Also note that the driver is one of the best sim-racers on the planet...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=A6iibXlAE-I

When you watch this, keep in the back of your head that this is TEN year old technology. Just think of where then went from there with Nascar Racing 2003, which is based on a severely updated version of this simulation core :) SPA as it was in 1967 was somewhere around 8 miles long if I recall correctly.

If you go to iRacing.com here: http://iracing.com/

At the top there is a video you can play comparing a real-life lap around Lime Rock Park on the left, and a syncronized duplicate of the lap in the simulation they are creating.

Bring a towel for the drool :)
 
TechLarry said:
Forza 2 on the Xbox is horrible...
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Well, a buddy of mine (who drives dirt stock cars) says that Forza 2 is about the absolute most realistic CONSOLE sim he's ever played................ of course it doesn't hold a candle to GTR:2; although right now i'm playing the hell out of DiRT and Race'07
 
BladeVenom said:
GTR2 and also Race 07 are the more realistic simulations.
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QFT, DiRT (while somewhat realistic) is more on the arcadey side of things, although the competition can get rough if you bump the skill level up.......... car adjustments become MUCH more important (i.e. can't win at all without at least making changes to the gearing, car just won't have enough top-end with stock settings)
 
Nicolaskl said:
I always liked Car and Driver:

http://games.gamepressure.com/game_info.asp?id=4879

Look at that semi, so real you can almost feel the rush of air as it passes you. I also appreciate the 6" off the ground POV the game has, because I've always wondered what it would be like to drive a car while lying on my stomach.

Plus they did dashboards 15 years before Gran Tourismo figured out how to.
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The original Test Drive on my C64 had dashboards.........

http://www.lemon64.com/?mainurl=http://www.lemon64.com/reviews/view.php?id=646

and that came out over 20 years ago............... It was so cool to see the wheel actually turn when you moved the joystick...............
 
Don´t be so hard at the Forza 2... Okay the steering is optimized for gamepads you can require from impossible spins but the tire modelling and overall feel of most cars is really quite accurate... I much rather run Forza 2 then LFS because LFS have so aweful audio it doesn´t exist it totally kills that sim for me :(.

the Saab 9-5 aero feels very much like our Saab 9-5 non aero just a bit more horsepower lol.

As for best sim it depends but for me Race 07 and rFactor is what I get the most out of. GTR 2 I got tired of despite loving the original but well I seem quite alone about that lol. Mostly drive it like crazy still we have 120 drivers or something plus waiting list in SSR a swedish club.

If you want to race off line as well then get Race 07 for sure because rFactor only works for hot lapping and mp racing. There is no mods for rFactor on the level of the simbin sims for example but it´s a battle of quantity vs quality lol. Mods like F1 1979 is really well done and the PCC
 
Played GTR2 for 3 hours yesterday after being away from it for a while. It's incredibly demanding! When you are in tune with the game, it makes you realize, what an absolutely magnificent achievement SimBin have accomplished with it.
 
i've played rfactor and its pretty cool but i wished it had lots more variety in cars and organised better like in forza 2 with there Class.

there a re way too many mods in rfactor and each mod is very limited imo. for example you have a renault mod that just has renault cars of the same type and model. i wished their was a mod where you can race with proper road cars like bmw's nissan's mercedies, honda,s etc just like forza 2. the one thing that rfactor is superior to forza is the actual in game racing. the physics, handling and sound are far superior in rfactor.

in other words:

rfactor needs more cars, customisation and better organisation of the cars.

forza needs rfactors whole race engine along wit at least 20 player races online. this is what i hate most in forza 2, only 8 players can race! i would also love if forza did a practise, quali and actual race in online mode
 
whenever I see the term double clutching and driving I get a good laugh when mentioned in the modern car sense....

The G25 is a good controller, but it's missing a lot from real life to say it is even close to it. Even with the progressive braking mod, there is a serious lack of feedback from the pedals (not to mention g-forces) that one relies on when driving a real car versus a game.

Simbin games are great, but since their cars are overpowered compared to what you drive on the road, I'd take it with a grain of salt when someone mentions it's like real life.

I've noticed that on a lot of sim games, a improper revmatch isn't as devastating to driving as it is in real life. In reality if I tried a 5-2 shift while I still had significant speed, not only would I brake loose the tires, I'd possibly break something in the process. So go into a turn revmatching or go in heel toe will produce nearly the same results in a game.
 
ISI titles in general is very forgiving in term of clutch... Though there is some rFactor mods that is a bit more realistic. Which is not always better remember a renault clio mod where you every single time killed your gearbox by only half missing a gear lol.
 
people have been boasting about LFS but where are the real cars? aint there any real cars like mclarens, Ford, nissan? the car and track on both s1 and s2 versions of LFS looks poor.. can you download mods to rave with real cars?
 
jonneymendoza said:
people have been boasting about LFS but where are the real cars? aint there any real cars like mclarens, Ford, nissan? the car and track on both s1 and s2 versions of LFS looks poor.. can you download mods to rave with real cars?
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No real cars, just cars that represent real cars. I was skeptical at first too with no real tracks or no real cars, but once i started playing...telling you man, amazing game, i still play it every single day online.


Oh there is the addition of a BMW-Sauber F1 car, but thats the only "real" car in the game.

The tracks are very well done, well thought out turns, elevation changes, etc. They feel like they could be real tracks. Nothing like the crappy fake tracks Forza tosses in with just ridiculous layouts.

If you are looking for an online sim that has cars like GT's, Forza, there really isnt one. At least not one i would consider a sim. Sim Racing on the PC is just a different level of competetiveness. LFS represents that best imo. And hopefully iracing.com in the future.

I usually race the Formula type cars on LFS, as they are my favorite. The online community and how its streamlined has no equal between other online racers. Its just far superior in every aspect, and there is always tons of people playing.
 
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