beginner seeking sff build help

[yamato]

Hello, first time builder here. Hoping to build a fast everyday use PC that can also handle some moderate gaming (primarily Starcraft 2). Interested in SFF primarily because I might need to move via airplane soon and it's quite hard to move large computers that way.

1. What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming, Photoshop (or other intensive programs), Web browsing, strictly HTPC/Playback, etc. (If you have multiple things you want to do with the system, make sure yourank them from most important to least important).
Primarily web browsing, word processing, moderate gaming, and occasional media playback/light photo editing. This will be my family's main PC.

2. Will you be overclocking?
Not unless it's easy ^^

3. What's your budget?Are tax and shipping included in this budget? Is your budget flexible? Is cost a driving factor in component selection?
Looking at $300, although parts that could last more than a few years/multiple builds can be a bit more expensive.

4. Where do you live?Do you have any big B&M (brick and mortar) computer chains nearby (e.g. Microcenter, Fry's, etc)?
Yes, both of those and more!

5. What exact parts do you need for that budget?CPU, RAM, case, etc.The word "Everything" is not a valid answer.Please list out all the parts you'll need.
It depends...see #6 below.
For sure: case, mobo
Probably: CPU, RAM, PSU
Depending on integrated, GPU...integrated might be enough to get me by until I have more budget.

6. If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing?Please be especially specific about the power supply. For reused parts, list brands, model #s, and, if applicable, firmware revisions.
I have a Dell Dimension e510 with a 305W PSU, a BTX mobo, a Pentium D processor, and 4 GB of DDR2 memory...these seem like they won't be particularly useful, but feel free to correct me.

I'll be bringing in at least one HDD from there and a Samsung 830 SSD from another. I'll probably also reuse the DVD/RW drive from the Dell if I can.

7. What specific features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc.Which is more important, size of the system or having the particular feature? Make sure you indicate *required* vs. *wanted* for each feature you list.
Need - to be able to take full advantage of my SSD
Want - USB 3.0 (especially front ports)
Want - WiFi

8. What resolution output do you need?1080p, 720p, DVD quality, etc for HTPC or list Vertical/horizontal resolution for non-HTPC SFF rigs. Do you need multiple monitor output?
I would like to be able to go to 1920x1200 on one, and dual monitors at some point in the future.

9. Does this system need to fit into a particular space and do you need an optical drive?Think entertainment center shelves, closet space, rackmount, etc. Many modern SFF cases have either removed the optical drive or have been constructed so that removing the ODD increases the configuration possibilities immensely.
nah, no particular space, although as mentioned earlier I foresee the need to move via air with so it would be ideal if it was less than half a checked bag.

I'd like to have an ODD, but am open to not having it if there are significant cost or space savings.

10. How comfortable are you with custom case design/modification and electrical wiring?What tools do you have (Screwdrivers/Leatherman, Drill, Dremel, Metal snips, Soldering Iron, Bending Brake, CNC/Welding machines/Plasma cutter, etc...)?
I have screwdrivers and a drill, but would prefer not to make custom mods the first time around.

11. How important is the noise/silence of this sytem?HTPCs typically want to be quiet while all-out SFF gaming rigs don't care
Ehh...not super important? but it will be in a bedroom, so it can't be an all-out jet.

12. How mobile does this system need to be?Need a carrying handle or carrying straps? Is weight important (carry-on bag, etc)? Water cooling quick disconnects, etc?
Not super mobile, weight and size are factors, but I'm moving with it, not taking it around all the time.

13. Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?Remember that OEM copies of Win7 have issues with new motherboards
Mmm I think I only have an OEM Win7

14. When do you plan on building/buying the PC?Immediately, in a couple weeks, 3-5 years?
In the next month.

I've been thinking something like the following:
i5-3570K - $170
Asrock h77m-ITX - $55 (after CPU combo deal)
Cooler Master Elite 120 - $50
Apevia 500W ATX PSU - $20 AR at newegg
Samsung 8GB (2x4GB) - $40
Total: $335before taxes

My main concerns with this are lack of Wifi and possible overheating issues due to the case (especially if I add a GPU later). I have been intrigued by the SG05...However, I'm a bit scared to get a smaller case, especially as a new builder. Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[xyexz]

I think the components you picked out are okay, if you're buying a "k" processor and think you'll overclock in the future, or if you'd like WiFi you'll want to go with the ASRock z77 itx board, it has onboard wifi, abilities for over/underclocking, over/undervolting etc.

It's an extremely awesome board that's quick to post and has all of the modern day bios features as well as all the plugs you could want, especially in something this size.

The case is a great case imo and I've not had any issues with it, it allows a good amount of room over say something like an SG05 and imho it has been cable management which might be nice for someone just starting out.

Airflow can be somewhat tricky in this case depending on what your expectations are, environment, components.

I'm wondering what CPU cooler you're looking to use in your case?

It's very easy to remove the HDD bay in the CM Elite 120 and throw a closed loop liquid cooler like an antec 620 or corsair h60 on your cpu to get very good in-expensive cooling that would beat pretty much any air cooler in the same cramped space.

I would look at a better psu than the apevia, (you'll also want something that's at least partially modular to allow for less cables hogging air space), I'll edit my post once I look for one for you, but 500 watt is a good amount depending on what kind of gpu you think you'll upgrade to in the future - what are your gaming needs/wants?

Edit:
Looking for the best bang for buck that allows some modularity, good price with good brand raised the price to $49.99 after rebate:
OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W

I'm using this exact one to power my Core i7 2700k oc'd with a GTX 670 oc'd to 680 specs without issue, also running a water cooling pump, fans and a couple of drives.

 

[yamato]

I think the components you picked out are okay, if you're buying a "k" processor and think you'll overclock in the future, or if you'd like WiFi you'll want to go with the ASRock z77 itx board, it has onboard wifi, abilities for over/underclocking, over/undervolting etc.

Thanks for the informative reply! Yes, to be honest I don't think I need a processor that good, but it seems like a good deal especially with the mobo discount and I can make it by on Intel HD 4000 for a while (I've been on 3000, so it's still a step up). Plus, I wasn't sure if the Z77 was worth $50 more...it depends on the other parts i guess. I'm already a bit over my budget . It's basically the H77 I posted + wifi and overclocking, right?

The case is a great case imo and I've not had any issues with it, it allows a good amount of room over say something like an SG05 and imho it has been cable management which might be nice for someone just starting out.

That's helpful - what kind of build do you have in it?

I'm wondering what CPU cooler you're looking to use in your case?

It's very easy to remove the HDD bay in the CM Elite 120 and throw a closed loop liquid cooler like an antec 620 or corsair h60 on your cpu to get very good in-expensive cooling that would beat pretty much any air cooler in the same cramped space.

Tbh I don't know anything about cooling...I was just going to use the stock cooler. How much of an effect would one of those have on gaming performance or everyday feel? Would it help with noise?

I would look at a better psu than the apevia, (you'll also want something that's at least partially modular to allow for less cables hogging air space), I'll edit my post once I look for one for you, but 500 watt is a good amount depending on what kind of gpu you think you'll upgrade to in the future - what are your gaming needs/wants?

Edit:
Looking for the best bang for buck that allows some modularity, good price with good brand raised the price to $49.99 after rebate:
OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W

I'm using this exact one to power my Core i7 2700k oc'd with a GTX 670 oc'd to 680 specs without issue, also running a water cooling pump, fans and a couple of drives.

That's definitely a nice one...I'm not sure if I need that much, though. I pretty much only play Starcraft 2, so I'd be happy to just run it smoothly with medium settings...right now I've been running it on lowest and it lags up in big battles.

Do you have any ideas on places I can save a few bucks? Or should I just suck it up and go up to $400-450 in the name of future-proofing?

 

[yamato]

Also, this is probably a noob question, but...if I remove the HDD bay, where do the HDDs go?

 

[xyexz]

Thanks for the informative reply! Yes, to be honest I don't think I need a processor that good, but it seems like a good deal especially with the mobo discount and I can make it by on Intel HD 4000 for a while (I've been on 3000, so it's still a step up). Plus, I wasn't sure if the Z77 was worth $50 more...it depends on the other parts i guess. I'm already a bit over my budget . It's basically the H77 I posted + wifi and overclocking, right?

Yes that's correct, if you didn't think you'll ever overclock but still want wifi you could just get a usb wifi adapter, good ones are around $20. This would still save your PCIe slot for a GPU in the future.

That's helpful - what kind of build do you have in it?

Build thread here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1711727

Tbh I don't know anything about cooling...I was just going to use the stock cooler. How much of an effect would one of those have on gaming performance or everyday feel? Would it help with noise?

Stock Intel coolers generally get you by barely in a regular sized case that has decent airflow, put it in an sff like this case and it'll start to downclock because of heat instead of speedboost.

A good aftermarket cooler will help in noise, performance etc, now if you need to save a few bucks for a while you could use stock cooler, and undervolt your cpu, (you'll be able to do this if you use the Z77 chipset ASrock itx board), undervolting a stock 3570k can save you about 10C stock clocked - its pretty amazing.

Here's a short writeup with pics on my experiences with undervolting.

That's definitely a nice one...I'm not sure if I need that much, though. I pretty much only play Starcraft 2, so I'd be happy to just run it smoothly with medium settings...right now I've been running it on lowest and it lags up in big battles.

Do you have any ideas on places I can save a few bucks? Or should I just suck it up and go up to $400-450 in the name of future-proofing?

Well the PSU I chose isn't necessarily about the wattage, go any smaller and you'd start going back into brands that don't have a great reputation with quality - that just happens to be one of the cheapest PSUs that still has a decent brand AND is partly modular which is almost mandatory in a SFF build.

As far as removing the HDD bay and still having room for your SSD, not a problem, lots of people take double sided Velcro tape to place an SSD anywhere - they don't have any moving parts so it's very easy to just stuff them somewhere, if you didn't need your DVD drive then it's real easy to just put the HDD and SSD in the 5.25" bay.

If you get the 3570k and the ASRock Z77 ITX board at microcenter I know you can save $50 bucks right there, they also have the CM Elite 120, I purchased my OCS PSU there as well (at least the one here in MN) and it was cheaper than newegg.

Personally, I would go with this:
CM Elite 120
ASRock Z77 ITX mobo w/ wifi
3570k CPU
Whatever ssd/hdd you have now

Come tax time:
GPU? GTX 660 ti or AMD equivalent for little better bang/buck.
Antec 620 for cpu
usb 3.0 hdd enclosure

Take out the hdd bay to make room for Antec 620 cpu cooler, crank up the overclock and Velcro tape the ssd somewhere

Toss in gpu and move hdd to enclosure for external usage.

 

[Zap]

3. What's your budget?Are tax and shipping included in this budget? Is your budget flexible? Is cost a driving factor in component selection?
Looking at $300

$300 for an entire custom built computer (sans drives) is quite low.

I've been thinking something like the following:
i5-3570K - $170
Asrock h77m-ITX - $55 (after CPU combo deal)
Cooler Master Elite 120 - $50
Apevia 500W ATX PSU - $20 AR at newegg
Samsung 8GB (2x4GB) - $40
Total: $335before taxes

Absolutely NO on that PSU.

Review of Apevia 450W where it can only supply around 240W out of spec

Review of Apevia 500W where it can only supply around 350W out of spec

I have been intrigued by the SG05...However, I'm a bit scared to get a smaller case, especially as a new builder.

Don't be. The SG05 is a nice case and is very similar to build in versus any other "shoebox" style ITX case.

That's definitely a nice one...I'm not sure if I need that much, though. I pretty much only play Starcraft 2, so I'd be happy to just run it smoothly with medium settings...right now I've been running it on lowest and it lags up in big battles.

Do you have any ideas on places I can save a few bucks? Or should I just suck it up and go up to $400-450 in the name of future-proofing?

Save a few bucks? Micro Center has the Core i3-3225 (with HD 4000) for $119.99 and is valid for the $40 off combo'd with a motherboard. That will save you over $50, and would still perform reasonably. You can also go with 4GB RAM for $20 or less, because unless you were massively multitasking you won't need the extra RAM.

Up the budget? Then go with the ASRock Z77E-ITX motherboard which can overclock and undervolt (at the same time even!) and give you WiFi. Also, can get an aftermarket low profile cooler which may be tricky to find for socket placement, but is possible. Also, can toss in a low end graphics card.

Heck, you almost can go even smaller with an Antec ISK 300-150 case. Get the Core i3 and a low profile Radeon 7750, and have a system that is less than half the size of the Elite 120.

if you didn't think you'll ever overclock but still want wifi you could just get a usb wifi adapter, good ones are around $20.

Yup. Plenty of cheap-but-decent USB WiFi adapters at $20 or less. My preference is for one that uses a higher gain external antenna, plus comes with an extension cable with stand to help placement, like this unit currently on sale for $15.

Stock Intel coolers generally get you by barely in a regular sized case that has decent airflow, put it in an sff like this case and it'll start to downclock because of heat instead of speedboost.

A good aftermarket cooler will help in noise, performance etc,

I completely disagree with this statement regarding stock Intel coolers. Did you know that TJ Max on an Ivy Bridge is 105°C?

PSA: Stock clocked Intel CPUs do not have to run at super low temperatures..

From this review:

Both my Core i5-2500K and Core i7-2600K hit ~4.4GHz, fully stable, using the stock low-profile cooler.

Of course that comes at the price of noise. At stock clocks, the stock cooler will be quite quiet except at high loads. Overclocked it will be noisy. Thus, there is good reason for aftermarket coolers if you want overclock + lower noise. No overclock? Stock cooler is fine.

modular which is almost mandatory in a SFF build.

I disagree with this statement. Modular is not mandatory in any system regardless of being SFF or not. People just like the idea of being able to detach unused cables, plus all the cool kids are doing it.

Well, if the proper wattage unit was used, there probably wouldn't be any unused cables.

If you get the 3570k and the ASRock Z77 ITX board at microcenter I know you can save $50 bucks right there

The combo discount has been only $40 for several months now, but still a hot deal if the 3570K is at $169.99 (was $20 more for two weeks recently).

 

[yamato]

Hey guys, thanks for the wisdom and informative responses. After considering it a bit more I think I was a bit too ambitious with the 3570k...it seems to be a great processor and all but considering that I probably won't buy a $200 GPU or even a monitor nice enough to warrant it in the next year I think I'll probably be better served downscaling a bit there and getting a more modest GPU instead. Here's my thoughts:

i3-3225 $120 (stock cooling)
asrock h77m-ITX mobo $55
8gb mem $40 - still thinking about the 4gb idea
usb wifi adapter $20
total $235 before case, PSU, and GPU

As for the case and such, I'm a bit torn, but if you think I can get away with something as small as the Antec 300-150 and the Sapphire LP 7750 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202002), I'm pretty much ready to go, as it would be awesome to have something that small, and this will not be an overclockable build anyways. Zap, I saw your build on the forums - no power or heat issues? What if I have an SSD and an HDD? Also, would you guys consider this build balanced between the CPU and GPU, or is one better?

Otherwise, I feel fine getting the CM case and a better PSU or the SG05, as I can probably reuse those in a couple years when it's time to upgrade (hopefully to something real nice! ^^). Regardless of the case, my total should be a little over $400 after the GPU - still higher than I hoped, but not too shabby .

 

[xyexz]

I completely disagree with this statement regarding stock Intel coolers. Did you know that TJ Max on an Ivy Bridge is 105°C?

I wasn't saying it wasn't possible, the OP asked about noise so I told him my opinion based on my experiences - the stock coolers never hold up for me, 105C is correct but who wants to run their CPU at that?

PSA: Stock clocked Intel CPUs do not have to run at super low temperatures..

They don't have to run a super low temps (what's super low), but I know I'd rather not turn my house into a nuclear reactor

I disagree with this statement. Modular is not mandatory in any system regardless of being SFF or not. People just like the idea of being able to detach unused cables, plus all the cool kids are doing it.

Well, if the proper wattage unit was used, there probably wouldn't be any unused cables.

I didn't actually say it was mandatory, I said it almost is, I know I've built systems where I practically had no room left for the spare cables on a non-modular psu in an sff system - didn't realize "cool" people were using modular psu's - I feel special now lmao.

The challenge with the OPs budget is finding a low wattage dependable psu that's cheap - find one

yamato, what OS are you going to run? If windows 7 I'd recommend sticking with 8GB of ram if you think your budget could squeeze it - most games will benefit from it and so will your SSD.

A system with the components in your last list will fit great in the antec 300-150 and should have enough psu juice to run that hardware.

You could grab the case and the rest of the hardware minus the gpu (use the hd 4000 for now) and once you get more cash grab the low profile Radeon HD 7750.

 

[Zap]

As for the case and such, I'm a bit torn, but if you think I can get away with something as small as the Antec 300-150 and the Sapphire LP 7750 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202002), I'm pretty much ready to go, as it would be awesome to have something that small, and this will not be an overclockable build anyways. Zap, I saw your build on the forums - no power or heat issues? What if I have an SSD and an HDD? Also, would you guys consider this build balanced between the CPU and GPU, or is one better?

That's a pretty good CPU/GPU combo.

I did have heat issues until I added a second exhaust fan. Without it, there was a dead spot of little airflow. Note that you won't hear the CPU or GPU fan, or even the PSU fan, over the stock Antec case fan. Even on low it is audible. Not noisy in particular, but you can hear it if you listen for it. One trick that I used to make the system instantly quieter (I gamed with the Antec fan on medium) is to stick it behind my monitor. Doing just that cut quite a bit of noise.

I had three SSDs in mine. Third one was sitting between the drive bays and PSU, not taped down or anything.

You shouldn't have any power issues. I was using a quad core and the Radeon 6670 I was using supposedly has a tiny bit higher TDP than the 7750. During gaming it peaked at 138W from the wall measured by a KAW. Also, while the PSU is proprietary to the case (like Flex ATX but with a custom casing) I believe Antec warrants it for 3 years.

I wasn't saying it wasn't possible, the OP asked about noise so I told him my opinion based on my experiences - the stock coolers never hold up for me, 105C is correct but who wants to run their CPU at that?

They don't have to run a super low temps (what's super low), but I know I'd rather not turn my house into a nuclear reactor

Really? Nuclear reactor? From what? The CPU will be generating the same amount of heat whether it is running at 40°C or 80°C. A lower temperature just means the CPU cooler is better at taking that same amount of heat from the CPU and sticking it into the air. It does not change how much heat is put out.

Stock cooler will not run the CPU at 105°C. I mentioned that as a counterpoint to the "conventional wisdom" of enthusiasts to always use more cooling than necessary.

Let me again state this in no uncertain terms.

When installed properly, the retail box "stock" Intel CPU cooler will be more than sufficient to keep a stock clocked CPU within "safe" temperatures. Intel backs that up with a 3 year warranty. Additionally, when the BIOS fan profile is set up properly, the noise levels are quite reasonable.

See this review of stock coolers

Full aluminium cooler: at idle and PWM-controlled load, the fan is barely audible. Idle has a slight whine but further away than 50cm it is not audible. At full load (PWM controlled) the fan spins slightly faster, and has less of a whine to it's sound. Much nicer.

Unfortunately they don't mention if they were testing inside a case or on a test bench. If on a test bench, then inside a case will be even quieter. 50cm is pretty close, and it was "barely audible."

With a 30 minute run of Prime95 on a dual core Sandy Bridge, the cheap full aluminum stock cooler (comes with dual cores, the copper/aluminum comes with quad cores) kept the CPU at 46°C when the fan was set to AUTO in BIOS and running at 1271RPM.

In BIOS, the board is set to try keep the processor below 45 degrees C

That's only 113°F. People would complain if their coffee was served that cold. The CPU will safely run at much higher temperatures.

These are actual, measured results with recent socket 1155 retail box coolers.

yamato, what OS are you going to run? If windows 7 I'd recommend sticking with 8GB of ram if you think your budget could squeeze it - most games will benefit from it and so will your SSD.

I agree with you that the OP should go 8GB if he can afford the extra $20, but I'm under no illusion that it will be of benefit to the SSD (WTF? how?) or even games (assuming single game running, with maybe some voice software in the background).

 

[xyexz]

That's only 113°F. People would complain if their coffee was served that cold. The CPU will safely run at much higher temperatures.

These are actual, measured results with recent socket 1155 retail box coolers.

ok

I agree with you that the OP should go 8GB if he can afford the extra $20, but I'm under no illusion that it will be of benefit to the SSD (WTF? how?) or even games (assuming single game running, with maybe some voice software in the background).

It will benefit the SSD because it won't be writing to the cache file all the time, stock Win 8 uses close to 2GB of ram, open up a browser or music player etc and OP will be a 2GB, most games I play like SC2 etc take up another ~1-2GB of ram when the ram is available.

Writing to disk cache can prematurely wear out SSDs from my research.

 

[yamato]

Thanks again guys! I ordered the following:

i3-3225 $120 (stock cooling)
asrock h77m-ITX mobo $55
samsung 8gb mem $40 from newegg
Rosewill RNX-N600UBE usb wifi adapter $23 from amazon
Antec ISK 300-150 $67 from superbiiz

Total: $318.06 after taxes and shipping

I will update again after I have received everything and have put it together (or tried at least ^^).

PS - when I go in to Microcenter to pick up the CPU/mobo I'll look for a second 80mm fan for the case. Alternately I might just pick up this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835150007) with free 2-day shipping from a free Shoprunner membership.

 

[yamato]

Ok, sorry it's a bit late, but I finally put everything together and I'm posting from my computer right now =). Here's a few pics:

All the stuff in boxes, ready to go! You'll note I'm reusing a 3.5" HDD from another computer...I decided to leave my SSD in my laptop and wait until I have money to get another one, then I'll add it to this computer and use Intel's SRT. Yes, I am running it in RAID right now with only one HDD.

The inside of the case without the HDD tray...needed to get rid of it to make space for the 3.5".

Everything's in there! Well, except for an 80mm fan that I added to the empty spot in the side of the case. Also, I ended up removing the electrical tape there...as I discovered that electrical tape doesn't like heat.

As for performance, it seems to run alright, idling around 26C and getting into the upper 40s when under load. I'm relatively happy with the HD4000, although in the future I still hope to add the 7750 along with a monitor. Well, there's actually lots of things I'd like to add...but we'll have to see when the money and time come =).

All that said, I do have a couple questions:

1. What's cheap that I can use to keep the hard drive in place?
2. Any ideas for making the cables a bit cleaner?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!