Battlefield V NVIDIA Ray Tracing: i9-9900K CPU Testing @ [H]

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by FrgMstr, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. DooKey

    DooKey [H]ard DCOTM x4

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    Kyle, it's true that we don't have anything else to judge the RTX line with besides BFV, but I think we're going to see better implementation in the future. That doesn't mean I forgive Jensen for overpromising and underdelivering, but I am willing to withhold final judgement until I see other engines try DXR.
     
  2. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    I disagree. Their lead programmer is a fucking Wiz, a total genius. If anyone can pull ray tracing off, it's him. Fact of the matter is that nVidia didn't have strong enough hardware to pull this off. Wouldn't have been that big of a deal, but they tacked on a huge price premium to help pay for the R&D across the entire 20x0 line. They could have advertised the feature, sucked it up for a year with volume sales, and taken said volume sales profits into further R&D.
    Instead, they decided to pass along the R&D costs to their gaming customers (which generally has instead been passed along to their workstation customers). This is plainly obvious starting with GPP and the eventual current NDA, culminating in opening pre-orders for a Star Wars tech demo that started months before "leaks" and reviews ever made it to potential gaming customers. nVidia knew they had a dud on their hands from the very beginning.
    Fact is, nVidia offered a knee cushion, pulled out the GoPro, and everyone started pulling down the zipper. Congratulations! If you bought an RTX for ray tracing, you're part of the largest Casting Couch audition of all time.
     
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  3. DooKey

    DooKey [H]ard DCOTM x4

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    Fine, we can agree to disagree. I didn't buy the RTX for the RT capability. I bought it because I wanted better performance with my 21:9 display. DXR is still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. When DICE gets their DX12 programming straight I'll try it out again.
     
  4. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Well that is where we differ. I evaluate hardware on what it delivers today, not tomorrow. Hopefully our evaluation will change in the very near future.
     
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  5. DooKey

    DooKey [H]ard DCOTM x4

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    I can definitely agree with that stance.
     
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  6. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    I too game on 21:9. Acer XR382CQK.002, 3840x1600 on a 1080TI and 6600K under customer water. Upgraded to the 1080Ti from a 980Ti less than two months ago.
     
  7. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ok, the only difference between my playing and Brent in settings is I keep GPU Memory Restrictions "ON". I tried turning it off like Brent and I'd get massive stutters every ~10 seconds. Even had my sound skip.

    2.png

    Maybe I can attribute my higher FPS to using a 380W bios and OC, below is an Afterburner chart with vsync on at 60 Hz 3440x1440 ultra/dxr low Rotterdam, 64 players, just running around the map. You can see it's capable from my usage.

    ab.png

    Overall this is still a terrible game for RT, there are so many better games for it that would look amazing.
     
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  8. Brent_Justice

    Brent_Justice [H] Video Card Managing Editor Staff Member

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    You have VSYNC On. I have VSYNC Off in testing.

    In regards to Memory Restriction, I tried both On and Off and had the same experience either way.
     
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  9. Brent_Justice

    Brent_Justice [H] Video Card Managing Editor Staff Member

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    What if that future never comes.... I don't know what will happen, only what is now, as Kyle said.

    I do know this though about the future, it is constantly changing. NVIDIA Hybrid Ray Tracing may be short lived and something else entirely different like Path Tracing take over. The point is, we don't know. Your RTX card may only have 1 or 2 games that ever support NVIDIA Ray Tracing. Or, maybe it will have 100, I surely don't know.
     
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  10. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    I ran vsync off the other day and was in the 70s.

    I hit 10.5GB with dxr low and ran fine. I did have stuttering with dxr ultra/memory restrictions on but more micro stutters. Confirms your VRAM adventures IMO.

    At the end of the day it shouldn’t be this hard with the top GPU...
     
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  11. renz496

    renz496 Limp Gawd

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    between many hardware maker in the world nvidia most likely understand this the most.
     
  12. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    Apparently they don't. Hence GPP and the NDA. They knew they had a dud when it came to ray tracing long before we even knew about the tech. Wake up.
     
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  13. renz496

    renz496 Limp Gawd

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    the issue most likely with the game engine itself. instead saying it was an afterthought i think DICE want to get more experience with it. and to get the real sense how it works in real world they need to see how it run in actual gameplay not just in their test lab. the caveat is user might not get the best experience from it.
     
  14. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    The user doesn't get anything but a negative experience. Having to drop a single resolution tier for a proper implementation would be acceptable. Having to go from 4k to 1080 for a half baked implementation is unacceptable considering the pricing increases. Hell, the pricing increases alone don't match up for non-RT numbers.
     
  15. renz496

    renz496 Limp Gawd

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    nvidia got where they were today because of the amount of resource they have put in improving their software. that's why they dominate the professional space. RTRT has to start somewhere. there will be no perfect solution from day one. when tessellation first appeared in Dirt 2 what did people think about it? a tech is not ready to be implemented in games for 5 more years? completely useless feature ever introduce in 3D games? even [H] recommend the game to be played on DX9 because there is no visual advantage at all. developer and other hardware maker will benefit from this early experience. even if RTRT only being pushed 5 years from now i'm sure at the time we will see similar issue what we are seeing right now because hardware maker and game developer still does not have real experience on how it run on real games.
     
  16. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    nVidia got where they are today by aquisitions.

    Right there is the meat, exactly what I was talking about. It's amazing how people end up agreeing with something they claim to disagree with, without even realizing it.
     
  17. renz496

    renz496 Limp Gawd

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    no one are happy with the price increase. but nvidia are company. so are AMD. with the price increase of RTX AMD also quickly take advantage of the situation to get better profit. acceptable or not it is up to user to decide. and ultimately no one actually forcing the user to buy the new RTX card else you can't play the game at all. older cards like 1080ti can play it just fine sans RT. funny thing is people complain when developer did not push things higher and said it was done because of console parity and such. and when they try to do so with heavy performance penalty they got complained with half baked implementation. that's why some dev simply give their middle finger to PC gamer.
     
  18. renz496

    renz496 Limp Gawd

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    part of it. but without good leadership no matter how promising tech you have under you belt you will still crumble in the end.
     
  19. NWRMidnight

    NWRMidnight Limp Gawd

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    Don't they first have to get DX 12 working properly without Ray Tracing first? They can't even do that yet. Battlefield 1 had issues with DX 12 from the start, and still has issues with DX 12, Battlefield V was released with serious issues with DX 12 , and there are still issues with DX12 without Ray Tracing, so how is releasing Ray Tracing to see how it runs in actual game play helping anything when they can't even get the foundation it runs on to be reliable and solid? (It is safe to say they had plenty of real game play from Battlefield 1 to learn all they can learn)

    Since Dice created the frostbite engine, and the engine has trouble with DX 12, that pretty much supports that DX 12 was added as an after thought and they never built a new Frostbite engine from the ground up with DX 12 in mind and/or they are not capable of modifying the current engine to support it properly. So, again, they do not have a sold foundation that can properly run DX 12, so why bother adding Ray Tracing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  20. dad_H

    dad_H n00b

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    I still have my old(2015) GTX Titan X (Maxwell, ~ 980 ti with 12 GB VRAM) and not sure what to use in my next PC build: cheap used GTX 1080 ti or new (expensive) RTX 2080 ti. Initially I wanted to double my FPS (1440p, later maybe 4K), but GP102 is only +50-60% - that's why I skipped it initially. TU102 is a bit more than 2X FPS (compared to GM200), but the price is still higher than was my GTX TItan X (1K$ in 2015) - should I wait until it goes down? AMD alternative is still not available in 2019, if smth appears ~ RTX 2080 but reasonably priced, then is OK for me. I don't care much about DXR/RT.
     
  21. readeh

    readeh Limp Gawd

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    Didn't have time to find the video in my initial post. I found the video here.
    Not all of them are necessary for getting better performance, but try it out and see if it helps.
     
  22. Reaperkk

    Reaperkk [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok so this is a stupid question that has probably been asked before but what is up with DX12? I thought that it was auto enabled in some games? How are you disabling it and is there any advantage to running DX12 and taking the FPS hit?
     
  23. Colonel_Blimp

    Colonel_Blimp n00b

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    What a shame the game is not on the Vulkan API and that DXR is enabled in that.

    :(
     
  24. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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    I'm pretty sure the only advantage Dx12 has is the framerate hit.:smuggrin:

    edit
    https://forums.battlefield.com/en-us/discussion/130989/how-to-turn-off-dx12
    Be wary, battefield forum may cause brain bleed
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  25. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Please take the discussion about BFV tweaking to your own thread please. Thanks.
     
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  26. Sineira

    Sineira n00b

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    Will you rerun with DLSS on now?
     
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  27. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Is DLSS now actually supported in BFV? Did it get turned on today?
     
  28. readeh

    readeh Limp Gawd

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    Thing is it has everything to do with your test of the game as well. Obviously you are GPU limited with Ray Tracing on, but you are testing CPU's.
     
  29. Sineira

    Sineira n00b

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    Yes, included in the latest NVIDIA drivers.
     
  30. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    You do realize the point of these CPU tests were to address all of the readers suggesting we were CPU-limited....right?

    If you would like to discuss YouTubers tweaking BFV, please do that in your own thread. This thread is for discussing information of our review. Thanks.
     
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  31. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Looking at the last BFV change notes, there is no mention of DLSS support.

    I seen no mention of DLSS BFV support in the latest driver notes.

    Do you have a link you could share with me so that I can see where you are getting your information?
     
  32. kring

    kring Limp Gawd

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    man, this must be a sore spot - I've never had my post deleted before... didn't realize what I said was so offensive... I just said I see 100% real-world performance over your numbers... and asked what hard drive you used and that maybe it's related to disk churn? you mentioned you had stuttering which no one else has. clearly there's some tension here I wasn't aware of. my intent wasn't to say you did anything wrong, we're just trying to help understand why your numbers don't match others, and in this case, yours are substantially lower than what others see.
     
  33. Brent_Justice

    Brent_Justice [H] Video Card Managing Editor Staff Member

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    I said it in another post, but I think it is related to how we evaluate. If you stick your head in one part of the map, and stay there, you can certainly inflate, or deflate your numbers, it is very easy to bias the results in BFV and still call them "real-world"

    You must check every place on the map you can go, there are areas that are more demanding than others.

    You must also have lots of people on the screen at the same time with combat happening, if not, numbers will be a lot higher when nothing is happening onscreen. It's real easy to once again be in a place in the map where there aren't people and the numbers will go way up. The only way to properly test is to be very active in the map and put yourself in dense situations.

    It is easy to take the easy way out with this game and test for just a minutes worth of gameplay, we test longer.

    Multiplayer is dynamic in nature, so naturally performance is going to be different, that's why we do multiple runs.

    Jensen at CES looking at a spot of water with nothing happening onscreen does not equate to what you will really get as you are playing the game against real people, dying, re-spawning, and going at it again, rinse and repeat with fast gameplay.
     
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  34. H2R2P2

    H2R2P2 Limp Gawd

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    @ Brent_Justice
    Kyle_Bennett

    I have a 7700K (that overclocks to 5.2GHz), a 2080ti, and a 165HZ G-Sync Display. I have been a system builder for a very long time, and my setups are set up correctly. I have been plagued with stuttering and very inconsistent framerates in BFV and while I could always do some tweaks that seemed to alleviate much of it, I could never seem to eliminate it entirely. Seeing this thread lead me to finally dig in a little deeper and I believe I actually found what was going on and I have a way to fix it.

    To cut to the chase, I installed LatencyMon (the Windows 10 version of course) and started a trace while stuttering was occurring. The offending driver in my case was DXGKRNL.SYS (which is the DirectX graphics kernel). Keep in mind, the base latency on this machine is awesome; its as near 0 as you can get, but its almost off the charts during a stuttering event. While we obviously cant do much about the graphics kernel driver itself, my theory was that something must be making calls to the Graphics Kernel in a way that is either broken, or in a way we don't want. I went to ad/remove programs and got rid of all the unnecessary Nvidia garbage and only kept GeForce Experience, the graphics driver itself, and the PhysX driver. I removed their audio driver, etc.

    I loaded the game back up and the stuttering is now 100% completely gone!

    I wanted to share this with you and everyone else as an option to try and to see if anyone else could confirm whether this fix works for them too.
     
  35. Brent_Justice

    Brent_Justice [H] Video Card Managing Editor Staff Member

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    Thanks for that, but, when we install the driver we only install the driver and PhysX, since always. We never install any of the other components like the audio driver or 3d vision, and now usb, and we never install GeForce Experience.

    The 3 components only installed on RTX cards is Driver/NGX/PhysX. NGX is required for the RTX features, it has to do with AI.

    We've always done it that way for the most lean installation and performance.
     
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  36. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    And let me say this too. If we go back and start making all this tweaks that everyone mentions to us, that in fact invalidates our gameplay performance data. We do that, then everyone cries, "They made all these changes so their benchmarks mean nothing." And quite frankly I agree with them. We want to test with how the biggest portion of the community is going to be playing the game "out of the box."
     
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  37. H2R2P2

    H2R2P2 Limp Gawd

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    Thanks for confirming your config. And I do understand the tension you face with regard to configuration and setting up the system when doing a review as it obviously has a big impact on performance. I suppose there is some room for ambiguity as to what settings would be considered "automatic" or "out of the box" vs. "advanced" or "professional/competition" related but I do applaud you for taking a stance on an issue and sticking with it. Having said this, I am not sure most people would only install Driver, NGX, and PhysX even though doing so is clearly the way to go (in my case) when playing BFV, but maybe I am an outlier and that drivers are the one thing I usually let install whatever it wants to.
     
  38. FrgMstr

    FrgMstr Just Plain Mean Staff Member

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    Introducing a ton of unknown variables and the true effects of those is simply not in the cards for us if we want to be taken seriously.
     
  39. H2R2P2

    H2R2P2 Limp Gawd

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    I totally agree with you.
     
  40. wootius

    wootius [H]Lite

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    People trying real hard to find some secret bullet to justify their 1000+ USD cards, that Nvidia isn't giving out to everyone because they don't need all the sales they can get right? DXR looks like undercooked software and to be a hardware generation early.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019