Batman AA Nvidia block removed?

rennyf77 said:
i know aa works in batman through catalyst. what i'm saying is that ati needs to better engage developers moving forward. i don't think batman is the only game where nvidia will try to pull a fast one.
Click to expand...

What if they are moving foward with developers, but Nvidia is blocking the developers to help ATI out. Specially if its a TWIMTBP game?

Assassins Creed DX10.1 Issue.

Batman AA Issue.

ATI is doing what they can, It's nvidia trying to fuck them over and the developers giving in (which they have too if Nvidia gave them money to make it a TWIMTBP title)
 
that's exactly what i'm talking about. i'm of the opinion that nvidia created the twimtbp program in 2003 to spin some of the fall out from their manipulation of fx drivers in benchmarking. i don't recall anyone back then feeling that this program would be around for very long, but we see it serving nvidia quite nicely today. how does ati begin to chip away at nvidia's influence? dx11. ati is the only one with the hardware ready now, and they're already in the hands of developers. now is the time for ati to create a tool kit of its own to feature some of the nifty things its hardware is capable of; now is the time for ati to build a coalition of developers under its own banner. we don't know that nvidia paid off eidos. we don't know if money exchanged hands at all to any developer. that's not something ati needs to focus on, because that not something ati can prevent. ati can only do its part, but ati needs to make moves now. with fermi late to the game, this maybe the only window of opportunity they have to ingratiate themselves on to developers before the juggernaut of nvidia's new silicon and twimtbp appear. to be completely honest, if gt300 is faster; i'll buy it. pc gaming isn't so important in my life that i'll choose to become self-righteous about it.
 
So renny, if Intel comes into the market and throws money at devs to do shady shit, what should AMD and Nvidia do? Intel could easily make TWIMTBP (both the good and shady parts) look like an amateur's effort, and your only hope then would be regulatory bodies stopping them.

Best for consumers to nip such shenanigans in the bud. Perhaps I'll pick up B:AA now.
 
Looking at most of the posts in this thread and the gear that you guys run, what is the big deal? Batman runs at like 60+ frames with full eye candy at 1920 res and 4xAA and 16x AF enabled thru the CCC. And you guys with the 5850's and 5870's its more like 80frames average with mnimums that are barely noticeable (50+ frames). So what is the big deal if you have to enbale AA thru the CCC instead of ingame? It's like 2 mouse clicks.
 
SirCumsized said:
Looking at most of the posts in this thread and the gear that you guys run, what is the big deal? Batman runs at like 60+ frames with full eye candy at 1920 res and 4xAA and 16x AF enabled thru the CCC. And you guys with the 5850's and 5870's its more like 80frames average with mnimums that are barely noticeable (50+ frames). So what is the big deal if you have to enbale AA thru the CCC instead of ingame? It's like 2 mouse clicks.
Click to expand...

just hit the nail on the head sir. in all of this rush to find demons and saints, the truth of the matter is that the game performs similarly on either companies' products.
 
SirCumsized said:
Looking at most of the posts in this thread and the gear that you guys run, what is the big deal? Batman runs at like 60+ frames with full eye candy at 1920 res and 4xAA and 16x AF enabled thru the CCC. And you guys with the 5850's and 5870's its more like 80frames average with mnimums that are barely noticeable (50+ frames). So what is the big deal if you have to enbale AA thru the CCC instead of ingame? It's like 2 mouse clicks.
Click to expand...

I don't think you actually read a word in this thread.

It's not forcing AA through CCC or performance that we are pissed about. It's Nvidia once again artificially screwing anybody not using their hardware and Eidos for allowing it to happen.
 
rennyf77 said:
just hit the nail on the head sir. in all of this rush to find demons and saints, the truth of the matter is that the game performs similarly on either companies' products.
Click to expand...

perform similarly?
Take a look at Anandtech's quote when it came to testing the 5870 on Batman:AA
Anandtech: Unfortunately NVIDIA’s influence has extended to its anti-aliasing abilities too, as its in-game selective AA abilities only work on NVIDIA’s cards. AMD’s cards can perform AA on the game, but only via traditional full screen anti-aliasing, which isn’t nearly as efficient. Because of this, this is the only game where we will not be using AA, as doing so produces meaningless results given the different AA modes used.
Click to expand...

And this:
Ian McNaughton posted a very interesting post claiming that by changing the VendorID from ATI to nVidia; you would not only get AA selection inside the game, but also higher performance.

This is not about painting ATi as the saint. It's the industry as a whole being forced to resort to shady dealings in order to compete. You're naive if you think the TWIMTBP program doesn't involve something beneficial in return to the devs. Why would any dev cripple a game for one set of cards if they aren't getting something else in return?

If you think ATi isn't working with the devs - go read this thread again. They have been working pre and post release with Rocksteady to make sure everything works until the last minute when they were blindsided by Nvidia's vendorid check. So what are you suggesting? That ATi come up with their own program that puts in their own code to lockout Nvidia cards? Because that seems like where this is going. Pretty soon in order to play any current and future titles with all the bells and whistles, you will need 2 cards in one system - an Nvidia card that plays TWIMTBP games, and an ATi card to play ATi's vendor approved games.
 
Morphy said:
You're naive if you think the TWIMTBP program doesn't involve something beneficial in return to the devs.
Click to expand...

pray tell, where i've posted that the twimtbp program isn't giving nvidia an unfair advantage. does it mean nvidia's handing out wads of cash? could be. maybe its thorough support? sounds right. maybe free engineering samples on top of that? makes sense. can any of us know with absolute certainty? nope. and why would you assume that ati would automatically have to resort to underhanded tactics. as if ati forming its own coalition of developers intrinsically means it'll begin to do wrong. why do you people immediately go to the extreme. the twimtbp program didn't just pop up a couple years ago. its been around for 6 years. that's how long it took nvidia to foster that kind of influence. do you believe truly believe that rather than fix its relationship with devs following the fx cheating revelation, nvidia created this program with the intention of crippling ati hardware? if you do, you are looking to anoint a saint.
 
I can't say I respected nVidia to begin with (or any other tech company competing for my dollars) but good God damn, they're really bungin' up the works with this TWIMTBP shit.

Combine that with the PhysX nonsense (as in, I can't officially use one of my 8800GT's in combo with my 4890) and I'll be staying away from purchasing anything nVidia for awhile.

I still love my 8800GT SLi combo though and I can't fault them for throwing money at game companies. I mean, why the hell not? But they're not fooling anyone...
 
rennyf77 said:
do you believe truly believe that rather than fix its relationship with devs following the fx cheating revelation, nvidia created this program with the intention of crippling ati hardware? if you do, you are looking to anoint a saint.
Click to expand...
No that wasn't their original intention at least I don't believe it was but done with the best of intentions to foster good developer relationships. But desperate times can propel a company to employ desperate measures...and I'm not just refering to Nvidia..same applies to pretty much any company incl. ATi/AMD. And who says ATi hasn't been sending engineering samples of their own. Their DX11 cards samples have been in the hands of devs for months before their release. You still haven't convinced me that ATi isn't doing enough - short of greasing the backpockets of devs.

What Nvidia has done better and done so consistently year after year over ATi is in their marketing. Their TWIMTBP program besides fostering dev relationships is a great marketing tool bordering on genius. ATi has consistently fall short in that regard - everything that they do is behind the scenes and without some fancy acronym to go with their efforts, the perception is they're sitting on their hands doing nothing.
 
i have no intention to try to convince you of anything. all i'm trying to do is get people to keep things in perspective. is nvidia shooting polar bear cubs or sinking barrels of toxic waste down the mariana trench? no. it is however making life a miserable bitch for its competitor. if everyone is so intent on being indignant and self righteous; getting stirred into a frenzy over this business, you might as well cast off your core 2 quad, i5, and i7 setups because intel has been much meaner to amd than nvidia has to ati.
 
rennyf77 said:
i have no intention to try to convince you of anything. all i'm trying to do is get people to keep things in perspective. is nvidia shooting polar bear cubs or sinking barrels of toxic waste down the mariana trench? no. it is however making life a miserable bitch for its competitor. if everyone is so intent on being indignant and self righteous; getting stirred into a frenzy over this business, you might as well cast off your core 2 quad, i5, and i7 setups because intel has been much meaner to amd than nvidia has to ati.
Click to expand...

IF nvidia would want to make more of a profit and get some more market share in the physix arena. They would allow ANY video card to work with there video cards.

I know I for one would snag up a cheapy 9600 or 8800gt for physix if they would allow it to work with ATI cards.

Of course I know they want to piss off ATI and other companies (intel). But if they are a sinking ship, the last thing you wanna do is poke more holes in the ship.
 
i personally don't care for physx at all. i don't find it in any way, shape, or form a benefit to gameplay in any title where its prominently featured. in mirror's edge the banners fluttered more realistically and in batman it made the bat cape look better. i give a big 'so what' to that noise.
 
rennyf77 said:
i personally don't care for physx at all. i don't find it in any way, shape, or form a benefit to gameplay in any title where its prominently featured. in mirror's edge the banners fluttered more realistically and in batman it made the bat cape look better. i give a big 'so what' to that noise.
Click to expand...

Some people do some people dont, but if Nvidia let physix be the standard, it would be used in ALOT more games, and if people with ATI cards wanted it, they wouldnt fucked over by using it.

Shrug either way the consumer is screwed
 
Yaotzin said:
So renny, if Intel comes into the market and throws money at devs to do shady shit, what should AMD and Nvidia do? Intel could easily make TWIMTBP (both the good and shady parts) look like an amateur's effort, and your only hope then would be regulatory bodies stopping them.

Best for consumers to nip such shenanigans in the bud. Perhaps I'll pick up B:AA now.
Click to expand...

+1. All consumers should call shenanigans on this. Nvidia has already expressed its fear of Intel doing this and that they think Intel already have plans on screwing Nvidia's customers. Here's my post from another thread about this:

Nvidia is scared that companies will go in their footsteps actually. They are actually pawing the way for intel to screw them, using the same methods:
From .PDF Nvidia vs. Intel legal dispute, Nvidia's response
http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/69443/NVIDIA_public_answer_and_counterclaim.pdf
Intel can immediately scare customers away from Nvidia's current graphics offerings by insinuating that these products will soon be unavailable for use on Intel's dominant platform.
Click to expand...
Page 25

Nvidia is also informed and belives that Intel has other plans, both technical and strategic, that are designed to interfere with NVIDIA's license and to disadvantage NVIDIA in the market place, which may include improperly encrypting its buses, or degrading the performance of the buses.
Click to expand...
Page 29

Basically, Nvidia might be screwed by Intel very soon. . Intel can even drop performance on any of their hardware when Nvidia's vendor-id is detected and screwing Nvidia through consumers. Worst part is that they have then only done what Nvidia is doing here. After all, why should Nvidia benfit from Intels work...

If I'm reading this right, Nvidia believes that Intel have plans of doing this already. Nvidia screws a developers customers in one game that runs competing hardware, Intel screws customers in all games that runs Nvidia hardware.

Consumers getting screwed again....
 
Nvidia's taken time to learn about bridge burning. You should keep watch at the Lucid Hydra threads about what's going on outside of the "making life hell for ATI" topic, soon we'll get some more answers and possibly more flying lawsuits.
 
If Eidos remove the vendor lock, that's the best thing that they can do for the sake of profit and neutrality. I'm currently enjoying the game with FSAA using the change ID feature in ATT plus the patch that allows PhysX in my AGEIA PPU, and the game is inmersive as hell, but nVidia should change it's Apple attitud and be more cooperative with the gaming community and market, PhysX is understandable, but Anti Aliasing? Please...
 
AMD needs to focus their efforts on making Big bang for buck video cards.... and that's what they have done. They shouldn't have to court all existing game developers in order to push some propriety advantage.

Nvidia's 285 is their flaship single GPU thus far. If Nvidia wasn't so busy spending time on business schemes, they would have a 285 that wouldn't cost so much. They could also pool extra financial backing into the development of the 300 series, rather than spending their resources on playing the propriety game.
 
rennyf77 said:
i have no intention to try to convince you of anything. all i'm trying to do is get people to keep things in perspective. is nvidia shooting polar bear cubs or sinking barrels of toxic waste down the mariana trench? no. it is however making life a miserable bitch for its competitor. if everyone is so intent on being indignant and self righteous; getting stirred into a frenzy over this business, you might as well cast off your core 2 quad, i5, and i7 setups because intel has been much meaner to amd than nvidia has to ati.
Click to expand...

You don't seem to get it. If Intel made a deal with MS and put in code in Windows that somehow cripples AMD systems running Windows, you can bet there'll be hell to pay. And as an Intel/Windows user I'd be just as hard on them as anything.

I could care less that Nvidia is making life a bitch for its competitor. I don't own shares in AMD or Nvidia for that matter. However, it is unfair to consumers in general. It's my hard earned cash that's at stake. Polar bears dying all over doesn't affect me but if somehow it starts affecting my bottom line yeah you bet I'm gonna get concerned. This isn't about who's being mean to who..it's about the consumer getting the shaft because of companies engaging in shortsighted unethical practices. Only fanboys would get that defensive over something that's clearly wrong.
 
Stanley Pain said:
You fail at reading comprehension.
Click to expand...

Funny how you'd say that to someone who works in the industry and knows exactly what happened. Reading second hand what happened on a rumor site doesn't constitute "knowledge" or "comprehension" kid. Sorry, but you're wrong.
 
Morphy said:
Only fanboys would get that defensive over something that's clearly wrong.
Click to expand...

gosh. must have touched a nerve to get that one thrown at me. okay sporto you win. nvidia is the big bad devil and out to rob me blind. i'll sit over here in may sensible corner and you go thrash around in your crazy corner and we'll be just fine.
 
BlueStorm said:
Funny how you'd say that to someone who works in the industry and knows exactly what happened. Reading second hand what happened on a rumor site doesn't constitute "knowledge" or "comprehension" kid. Sorry, but you're wrong.
Click to expand...

So you're telling me they posted up fake emails from developers, lawyers, et al. That smells of libel.

Being in an industry doesn't automatically make you clairvoyant in all happenings within said industry, kid.
 
BlueStorm said:
NVIDIA has done no such thing. Huddy is framing his statements to make things up that NVIDIA never said. The vendor check is not going anywhere.

AMD needs to supply their own AA solution for AMD customers to get access to AA. If they had just done this from the get go instead of crying we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Click to expand...

Fanboys really do say the darnest things!
 
Nvidia seems to be very shady these days. Maybe I just don't notice it but what are there any rumors about ATI doing any sleazy things? I been following ATI since the 9800pro days always rooting for them to do well and I can't recall any shady tactics used by ATI.
 
Method36 said:
Nvidia seems to be very shady these days. Maybe I just don't notice it but what are there any rumors about ATI doing any sleazy things? I been following ATI since the 9800pro days always rooting for them to do well and I can't recall any shady tactics used by ATI.
Click to expand...

both ati and nvidia engaged in drive optimized benchmark cheating between 2003-2004.
 
Message to Nv.... The GTX card I got last week was purchased only because GenL provided a hack which allowed PhysX to run with my Sapphire HD5970. Your moronic decision to block out the competition would have killed any reason for me to purchase that GTX 285 and would have rendered thousands of Nvidia cards useless to owners of ATI's 5000 series cards. You should thank GenL for giving your Nvidia cards a purpose. But something tells me that Nvidia engineers are working feverishly to find a way to prevent that hack from working on future Nv driver releases. They don't give a $h!t about those of use who own their product.
 
With all of this drama that has happened, my likelihood of ever purchasing Batman has severely dropped.
 
The big mistake was Eidos just not writing the AA code themselves. That opened a can of worms that should have stayed closed.

The second big mistake was Eidos not putting something in a contract with Nvidia that said "you can't make any code for us that disables functionality in a non-Nvidia product".

If Nvidia took the time to write the code then I can see someone over there saying "hold on a sec, we just took the time to write this code so nobody else should get free benefit from our work". So then they toss in a little bit of "if not(nvidia) then exit" code and call it a day. I don't think it's right but I can understand doing that. The point is that it should have never gotten that far.

As far as gpu companies writing dedicated code then I say cool; as long as the game developer has generic code in place as well. Eidos could have told both ATI and Nvidia "hey look we're going to use this piece of AA code. If either of you would like to write a tweaked out version for you product for us to include then that's cool but otherwise we're using this code; just letting you know". Then if ATI or Nvidia wanted to spend time writing custom tweaked code for their gpu's then fine but non-ati/nvidia gpu's would use the Eidos generic code. Personally I think this is would be a good choice.
 
rennyf77 said:
what are you people retarded?
Click to expand...

we should be asking you the same thing.....DX is a standard and it should be followed. After all what good is a standard if one is allowed to bypass it and code specifically for one card?

ATi fixed it but they should have never had to do so in the first place.

Nvidia can pretty much dissapear in my book.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top