Bastage needs a new Box

[bastage]

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Web Browsing & Gaming.
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
750ish
3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.
US. Have Prime & Shoprunner, so Amazon or Newegg are both fine & no Tax from Either.
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.
Case, Mobo, CPU, Ram, GPU, PSU, Optical is optional.
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
I can get a 256gb m4 new for less then any sales I have seen so I am going to get that separate (I have a family member who works for crucial).
6) Will you be overclocking?
Some, But nothing super extreme
7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? What size is it?
Will be using a 27" 2560x1440 IPS (going to snag one of the ebay ones).
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
End of this month, beginning of next.
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video (as a backup or main GPU)? UEFI? etc.
USB 3.0 header on the mobo, not just back panel. No SLI or CF up font, but would like the option later.
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?
Yep, Win 7 64bit.

The LCD & SSD are not part of the 750ish budget

My current rig is a 955be with a 6870 2gb on a 28" 1920x1200 lcd. I would like to not re-use ANYTHING in this system as I plan to migrate it to the wife's system.

My current rig isn't too slow for anything I do as it is, but when I add another 1.3 million pixels to my resolution I expect that to change so I figure I will use this opportunity to get my wife to leave my shit alone (by her having her own).

Edit 1: games are pretty simple. Not any new super high end FPS. My Most played games are Starcraft 2, Dirt 3 & most recently Orcs Must Die. I am constantly grabbing new games of whatever type off of steam every time there is a sale though.
Also when I say 750ish 750 is the goal, but I have a couple hundred to flex in there if need be.

 

[tiraides]

Which game(s) do you plan on playing the most? Off the bat, you'll probably want to look at one of the $250-$300ish video cards available now given the resolution you plan on using.

 

[bastage]

Which game(s) do you plan on playing the most? Off the bat, you'll probably want to look at one of the $250-$300ish video cards available now given the resolution you plan on using.

Edited & included in Main Post.

 

[Dangman]

Any chance you can provide some VRAM numbers for SC2 and Dirt 3? GPU-Z should be work.

 

[bastage]

Any chance you can provide some VRAM numbers for SC2 and Dirt 3? GPU-Z should be work.

Given a different resolution now compared to after I don't think that will do any good.

 

[Dangman]

Given a different resolution now compared to after I don't think that will do any good.

Well here's the deal: I'm not sure just how much VRAM those games take right now at your resolution. If those games are using more than 1.2Gb of VRAM right now at 1920x1080, it means that we should be trying to get a card with 2GB of VRAM for your higher resolution. If those games aren't even near the 1GB threshold, it means you should be safe with a 1280MB video card even at that higher resolution.

 

[bastage]

Well here's the deal: I'm not sure just how much VRAM those games take right now at your resolution. If those games are using more than 1.2Gb of VRAM right now at 1920x1080, it means that we should be trying to get a card with 2GB of VRAM for your higher resolution. If those games aren't even near the 1GB threshold, it means you should be safe with a 1280MB video card even at that higher resolution.

At that resolution I would think 2gb is needed at-least.

 

[bastage]

Also I am considerable above budget.. But this is what I have so far.

220 I5 2500k
95 AR GIGABYTE GA-P67X-UD3-B3
60 CORSAIR H40
45 G.SKILL Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600
150 SeaSonic M12II 850w
360 GIGABYTE GV-R787OC-2GD Radeon HD 7870 GHz Edition 2GB
117 Fractal Design Arc Midi

I Know that the PSU is overkill, but I hate being limited by the PSU later since I tend to keep them for several years, I Know I can find a cheaper case, but again I keep them through multiple builds normally & I want one with USB 3.0 on it since I find myself waiting for thumb drive transfers constantly. CPU & Motherboard wise I will likely look to the FS/T forum when it comes time to buy & see what I can find at the time.

Edit: also of note. GPU prices for the AMD cards are coming down due to the 680 being released faster then the 7970 & much cheaper. so hopefully when I go to actually buy the stuff in a week I can score a decent deal on a card fast enough to push that resolution.

 

[Prav]

You may want to consider upgrading to the H60 the extra 3 years on the warranty alone is worth it. Currently $56 on Amazon

Also consider a Z68 motherboard. You can find many for roughly the same price as that P67. $99AR GIGABYTE GA-Z68AP-D3

 

[bastage]

You may want to consider upgrading to the H60 the extra 3 years on the warranty alone is worth it. Currently $56 on Amazon

Also consider a Z68 motherboard. You can find many for roughly the same price as that P67. $99AR GIGABYTE GA-Z68AP-D3

The extra warranty is nice, but the corsair link thing just annoys me. Considering that the H60 is currently cheaper that would make the difference & I would get it, I just hadn't even looked at it.
As far as a z68 mobo, Whats the advantage? I thought it was basically just onboard video which does nothing for me. So even at equal price I would rather not have the clutter. Also that motherboard does not have an onboard USB 3.0 header.

 

[Prav]

You are correct about the on board USB 3.0 issue; none of the low end Z68 boards seem to have this feature.

p67 vs Z68 was summed up pretty well here:

The differences between the P67 and the Z68 boards come down to 3 features:
-Intel SRT (Smart Response Technology) allows SSD caching with a small SSD (<64GB)
-In most cases support for the IGP (Intergraded Graphics on Processor) allows you to use the IGP for graphics or trouble shooting help. Also withthe Lucidlogix Virtu software you can switch between te the dedicated video and the Intel Quick Sync to get the best performance.
-Intel SATA III said to be better performing then the older Marvel controller on the P67 boards.

Christian Wood
Intel Enthuisiast Team

 

[bastage]

p67 vs Z68 was summed up pretty well here:

Of those 3 the 1st 2 I knew about & neither are an advantage to me (SRT would be if I still used a mechanical drive, but from what I understand its worthless with your OS already on an SSD). I already mentioned my thoughts on the IGP & as for the Intel SATA III ports I thought all the 1155 chipsets had 2 & only 2 sata 3 ports?

Edit: in fact wasn't it the Intel SATA III that had the defect that caused all the p67 boards to get recalled up front?

 

[pelo]

Of those 3 the 1st 2 I knew about & neither are an advantage to me (SRT would be if I still used a mechanical drive, but from what I understand its worthless with your OS already on an SSD). I already mentioned my thoughts on the IGP & as for the Intel SATA III ports I thought all the 1155 chipsets had 2 & only 2 sata 3 ports?

Edit: in fact wasn't it the Intel SATA III that had the defect that caused all the p67 boards to get recalled up front?

Yea, cougar point had an issue with Sata III degradation but it's been fixed by a B3 revision so you needn't worry about it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231422 this ram will give you the same results as the Ares series from g.skill.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102981

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127567
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130687

I do agree with you about needing a bit more vRAM, especially if you plan on keeping that GPU for a while. The GTX580 1.5GB can be had for pretty cheap nowadays through the FS/FT forum or ebay or what have you. If you prefer a retailer than you can snag one for ~ $350 new, which is a great price. The 7870 can be OC'd to GTX580 levels pretty easily and it has a bit more room as far as vRAM goes. Really, there are some good bargains to be had both on new and older generations and you can't go wrong.

 

[tiraides]

Yes, but that problem was fixed with the B3 revision.

Is the after-rebate price why you're going with that Gigabyte P67 board?

 

[bastage]

Yes, but that problem was fixed with the B3 revision.

Is the after-rebate price why you're going with that Gigabyte P67 board?

I Knew it was fixed. The only reason I pointed that out was due to the post above that implied that there was no SATA III on p67 natively.

The AR price as well as the USB 3.0 header. I for one am not afraid of rebates as I have never submitted one I did not get. I just read the directions twice before starting & make sure all my ducks are in a row.

As far as the GPU goes the 7870 appeared to be just a hair slower then the 580, except with less power draw & cooler running. Plus for all the bad wrap that AMD has on there GPU drivers I have way worse luck with nV's drivers then ATI/AMD's. So unless its a much better deal I would rather stuck with AMD video.

Edit: another option on the GPU is to pickup a 2nd 6870 2gb which is about 210 currently then a lower end card for my wife to use (5770 ish would be enough) which would knock off probably 50-60 bucks overall, but I think that the single faster card for now would be more desirable.

 

[Dangman]

Yeah definitely single GPU for simplicity's sake. However in terms of deals, the HD 7870 isn't entirely a perfect deal in comparison to this video card:
$260 - eVGA 012-P3-2066-KR GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Cores FTW 1280MB PCI-E Video Card

The GTX 560 TI 448 Cores is only 3% slower than the GTX 570. In games where VRAM probably isn't an issue, the GTX 570 is about 15% slower than the HD 7870. So basically the GTX 560 Ti 448 Cores is 18% slower than the HD 7870. But the price difference is $108. Despite the increase in resolution, I don't think SC2 or Dirt 3 will use so much VRAM to the point that you need a 2GB card. That is unless you can show that SC2 right now is using around 1GB to 1280MB of VRAM.

Considering the games you're playing and if you want to save some money, the GTX 560 Ti 448 Cores will be your best bet right now. With that said, if a 18% performance difference is worth $108 to you, by all means go for it.

 

[bastage]

Yeah definitely single GPU for simplicity's sake. However in terms of deals, the HD 7870 isn't entirely a perfect deal in comparison to this video card:
$260 - eVGA 012-P3-2066-KR GeForce GTX 560 Ti 448 Cores FTW 1280MB PCI-E Video Card

The GTX 560 TI 448 Cores is only 3% slower than the GTX 570. In games where VRAM probably isn't an issue, the GTX 570 is about 15% slower than the HD 7870. So basically the GTX 560 Ti 448 Cores is 18% slower than the HD 7870. But the price difference is $108. Despite the increase in resolution, I don't think SC2 or Dirt 3 will use so much VRAM to the point that you need a 2GB card. That is unless you can show that SC2 right now is using around 1GB to 1280MB of VRAM.

Considering the games you're playing and if you want to save some money, the GTX 560 Ti 448 Cores will be your best bet right now. With that said, if a 18% performance difference is worth $108 to you, by all means go for it.

While you make a compelling argument I don't think a 560 had the power to push that res.

On my phone atm so limited searching, but the 560 to trails the 570 by quite a substantial margin at 1920.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1533/9/

 

[pelo]

That's the wrong 560Ti. You're looking for the 560Ti 448 which gets within a stone's throw of the 570.

That 7870 can OC past GTX580 (even when the 580 is OC'd) levels with relative ease and considering it's price is roughly the same as the GTX580 (and might dip even lower) with 2GB vRAM it's still a great buy.

 

[Dangman]

Wrong card: I'm talking about the GTX 560 Ti 448 Cores. It's a very different card from the GTX 560 Ti in that review. Here's a review showing the GTX 560 TI 448 Core:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5153/nvidias-geforce-gtx-560-ti-w448-cores-gtx570-on-a-budget

 

[bastage]

Fucking dumb ass naming on nvidia's part. That is much better. I still question weather it would be enough to push high settings on modern games at that resolution.

 

[Dangman]

Fucking dumb ass naming on nvidia's part. That is much better. I still question weather it would be enough to push high settings on modern games at that resolution.

Well again, you're only playing SC2, Dirt 3, and Orcs Must Die. Those aren't exactly high-end games. I'd understand your concern if you were playing BF3 or Skyrim but not with the games you mentioned.

As the AT review showed, the GTX 560 TI 448 Core was usually within 3% of the GTX 570. In addition, they did test games at 2560x1600, a resolution that's higher than your planned 2560x1440. In the non-super high end FPS, the GTX 560 Ti 448 Core did provide fair performance with most of those games at or near max settings.

Since we know the GTX 560 Ti 448 core is only 3% slower than the GTX 570, just deduct 3% from the results of a GTX 570 VS HD 7870 review and you'll get an idea of the GTX 560 Ti 448 Core's performance right there. Like this review for example:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/03/04/amd_radeon_hd_7870_7850_video_card_review/1

 

[bastage]

Well again, you're only playing SC2, Dirt 3, and Orcs Must Die.

Those are nowhere near the only games I play. Those are just what I spend the most time on. I have read several reviews on the 560ti 448 & honestly I am not seeing anything that catches my attention other then the price. That said if I go with the NV route at all it will probably be with a used 580 since a couple have already dropped for < $300 on the FS/T forums. I am honestly biased though since the last 2 or 3 times I used an card from the green camp I had major driver issues.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

Well here's the deal: I'm not sure just how much VRAM those games take right now at your resolution. If those games are using more than 1.2Gb of VRAM right now at 1920x1080, it means that we should be trying to get a card with 2GB of VRAM for your higher resolution. If those games aren't even near the 1GB threshold, it means you should be safe with a 1280MB video card even at that higher resolution.

Well I game SC2 at 1080P and I don't see it ever go over 1GB of VRAM on my 470. Usually it's around 750/800MB. Though I don't play the game often anymore, I'll load it back up and play a few campaigns and see how it goes. I will note that I play the game on the Ultra/Max settings.

That 560 Ti 448 core is faster than my 470, therefore it should play any of those games, then some, at your resolution just fine.

 

[bastage]

Well I game SC2 at 1080P and I don't see it ever go over 1GB of VRAM on my 470. Usually it's around 750/800MB. Though I don't play the game often anymore, I'll load it back up and play a few campaigns and see how it goes. I will note that I play the game on the Ultra/Max settings.

That 560 Ti 448 core is faster than my 470, therefore it should play any of those games, then some, at your resolution just fine.

Well that 2.07 million pixels your pushing and the 1140 monitor has 3.68 million. Thats a pretty hefty difference.

Also given that SC2 is moreso CPU limited then GPU limited I am not sure why it seems to be the hangup. At least unless something has changed since it came out.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

Well that 2.07 million pixels your pushing and the 1140 monitor has 3.68 million. Thats a pretty hefty difference.

Also given that SC2 is moreso CPU limited then GPU limited I am not sure why it seems to be the hangup. At least unless something has changed since it came out.

That's a 56% difference, even if it scaled perfectly and it required 56% more VRAM then it'll be right at 1.2GB. For SC2 at least.

Skyrim IIRC, uses every bit of the 1.2GB of VRAM on my 470, though I don't have any problems playing the game. (Other than the glitches, but that has nothing to do with the GPU)

 

[bastage]

That's a 56% difference, even if it scaled perfectly and it required 56% more VRAM then it'll be right at 1.2GB.

which is right at the max of the 560 ti 448..

I have spent the last couple hours looking at several reviews for the 560 ti 448 & I haven't seen anything that makes me want it. I would essentially have the card maxed at day 1 so the 1st time I got a new game or did anything that used more ram it would be time for an upgrade.

Plus as far as I can tell the 560 ti 448 is just marginally faster then my current 6870 2gb so if I was going to settle for the 560 I might as well save myself another 150 and keep my current card & just put a low end card in this machine for my wife since she doesn't game.

So please.. the 560 ti absolutely will not happen as it is not a good value no matter which way I look at it so can we move past it now?

 

[azeem40]

I agree with you. Get the Radeon 7870. It basically touches the 580s performance and sometimes threatens to take it over.

 

[bastage]

OK so a little refinement & a few bucks cheaper.

95 AR GIGABYTE GA-P67X-UD3-B3
215 Intel Core i5-2550K
45 G.SKILL Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600
230 AR Corsair Carbide Series 500R + CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX850M

585 AR incl shipping where as the 1st revision above was 626 AR for the same parts.

GPU is going to probably be a wildcard till I order since the prices are falling fast. At this point though it will be either a 7870, or a used 580. Will depend on what kind of deals are available on the used 580 at the time (one recently went for 250 on the FS/T forums & even my nvidia hating ass has to admit that's a hell of a deal for that card). I might even put off the video card for a bit to let the 680's get back in stock & the immediate gouging over-with since that's when the 580's & 7xx0 series will be the best values.

Edit: Oh & I know I can save 7 bucks on the ram and get the value series, but my OCD doesnt like ram without ram sinks & its pretty when the ram matches the board

Edit 2: after a quick look on the FS/T board the 6970's hitting less then 250 would also I believe be good enough.

 

[bastage]

Well apparently nothing other then my video card choice warranted discussion. Guess I will wo with whats above as long as those sales are still happening on friday.

Edit: Eewwiiee yuck.. nevermind that will have to switch because I dont like that PSU. The semi modular design leaving the standard 4 pin connections hard wires is dumb. I dont use any other then optical & that is likly not to go into this rig.

 

[Dangman]

Well didn't want to comment yesterday since your AMD bias was rather appalling.

With that said and because I'm bored:
- Pick up the CPU on Thursday, not Friday, as that's when the deal ends. Otherwise, kind of a bad buy IMO.
- Go used for the video card. The HD 7870 is just a poor buy at this point in time.
- No matter how you spin it, 850W is stupid overkill. Unless you're going for triple HD 7870 Crossfire, GTX 580 SLI, or tri-SLI, no reason for you to get a 850W PSU.
- The TX850M is indeed not a good PSU at its normal price. So you're looking for a modular PSU?

 

[bastage]

Well didn't want to comment yesterday since your AMD bias was rather appalling.

With that said and because I'm bored:
- Pick up the CPU on Thursday, not Friday, as that's when the deal ends. Otherwise, kind of a bad buy IMO.
- Go used for the video card. The HD 7870 is just a poor buy at this point in time.
- No matter how you spin it, 850W is stupid overkill. Unless you're going for triple HD 7870 Crossfire, GTX 580 SLI, or tri-SLI, no reason for you to get a 850W PSU.
- The TX850M is indeed not a good PSU at its normal price. So you're looking for a modular PSU?

lol @ my bias being appalling. It doesnt really come to me liking AMD as much as it does me not likeing nvidia.

Cant get anything till friday (payday) or else the wife will skin me alive.
The 7870 at 370 does not at all seem like a good deal to me either considering what used 6970's & 580's are going for so I will be going used there (especially since I never keep a video card for more then a year).
Yes 850 is overkill, but my 600 now leaves me wanting so I want to be sure to leave plenty of headroom.
The only reason I was considering the TX850M is because of its combo price, but considering that its short almost nothing compared to a regular TX850 which is cheaper there is no reason. I think they made a couple cables detachable so they can mark up the price.

 

[bastage]

Well I thought I would update this..

Wife decided for me that it wasn't going to all happen at once when she decided we were going to re-landscape instead. But on the bright side she did decide that she doesn't want her own computer at all. This has also allowed me to follow the FS/T forums as well as the Hot Deals Forum. I have a bunch of parts on the way, but I havent ordered my SSD yet as I am thinking about making the jump clear to 512gb so my complete steam directory will fit on it. Video card is on hold until I come across a deal I cant resist on either a GTX 580 or a 6970. Ram is being re-used for now, but will be replaced soon (want to go to 16gb & my OCD will end up getting the better of me since my 8gb I have now is red & the new board is blue). Same with my Hyper 212+ (planning to go to a h100). The rest is as Follows.

PSU - 90 - SeaSonic X750 Gold - FS/T forum
Case - 70 - Fractal Design Arc Midi - Newegg Shell Shocker last week.
Mobo/CPU - 350 - ASUS P8Z68-V/GEN3 + I7-2600k - Both new, but from the FS/T forum

Also received a Shiman 27" 2560x1440 IPS doe 330 shipped. This I also have to say is a beautiful display.

 

[bastage]

well I Figured I would go ahead & post a pic now tht its built..

http://goodluckmakingrent.com/images/sdc11072.jpg

As the pic shows my video card choice is obviously not a 580.. The 6870 2gb's went onsale again for 168 AR so I picked up a 2nd one. I could not of picked up a 580 for what I paid & what I could sell my existing 6870 for (newegg keeps screwing the resale every time they put them on sale).

Still to come is the ram will be swapped out for a 16gb low profile kit (probably this one) & the 64gb c300 SSD & 500gb 7200 RPM 2.5" samsung drive will get swapped out for a 512gb Crucial m4 whenever I can convince my wife to sign off on that one. Also I have 3 more matching fractal design 140mm fans on order. I have a couple small 3x fan controllers to slow these down too..
Last thing beyond that is an h100. I know the CPU will stay cool as it is, but I jsut kinda want an h100 eventually.

 

[DirtyB]

Nice pickups on the psu/case/mobo/cpu looks like the build went well.

Do you really play enough games to necessitate a 512gb? I've seen the 256 for down around $260ish

 

[bastage]

Nice pickups on the psu/case/mobo/cpu looks like the build went well.

Do you really play enough games to necessitate a 512gb? I've seen the 256 for down around $260ish

My stream folder is approaching 200gb as it is. And stream sales are hard to resist Also I have a family member that works at a top tier ssd manufacturer, so I won't be paying retail.