![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
ATI to counter the 6800GT!!!
- Thread starter juniormlc
- Start date
- Joined
- May 18, 1997
- Messages
- 55,738
I call bullshit on the XBit story.
oqvist said:Cool do you have any inside info
Think about it, the x800pro is neck and neck with the 6800gt, and the xtpe is slightly ahead of the ultra. If anything ati would just lower the price of the current cards instead of trying to add another card to their lineup to further weaken there already weak supplies.
Even if ati does this they would prob name the card the X800SS , you know, so the ford and chevy guys could get into it
agentzero9
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2002
- Messages
- 2,799
oqvist said:
But isn't the X800Pro faster than the 6800GT at higher resoluttions (1280x1024 and up)?
TangledThorns
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2004
- Messages
- 265
ATI really should sell their Pro at $300-350 prices soon or they're going to get killed this year. Anyways, when I picked up my 6800GT last week at CompUSA te clerk said he read that Nvidia is planning on leaving the graphics biz next year. Is that a true or was he pulling my crank?
No he was telling you the truth that only CompUSA clerks privey to. Starting in 2005 Nvidia will be releasing excellent over-clocking race cars called XtremeXVIIIGT. It will run on gullability and cost a little less than ATI's offering who are also leaving the graphics business so that they may continue to battle the forces of Nvidia until only one remains. Yeah...
TangledThorns
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2004
- Messages
- 265
Yeah, I think he was just being an ATI fanboi ass too. I had similar situation years ago when a clerk at a PC shop tried to tell that the Voodoo 4 or 5 was better for FPS games than Nvidia.
101998 said:Did you say hdr demo?
http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/
I'd be curious to know as well what true hdr is as well. Technically we would need a projector that is capable of somewhere near a 50000:1 contrast ratio before we could physically see (or be blinded by) a difference in the rendering process. Another interesting tidbit, the x800 can run rthdribl 640x480 4xmultisample at about 120fps, last I saw the 6800u did it at about 70fps, if higher precision means lower performance with no visible IQ increase its pretty much worthless no me.
EDIT : I even found a snazzy article about some guys building a 50000:1 projector, sunglasses not included
Well just want to say 6800u won't perform any better in rthdribl since its not using FP blending which is the preferred HDR method (which is what ATI doesn't support). Also there is evidence that could easily boost the performance in rthdribl with fixing the horriblely inefficient shaders its using (not too much of a surprise considering its a really early PS2 demo using ASM written it seems by someone who isn't used to working with ASM).
Only problem with FP blending is it doesn't support AA on the GF6800 (Its supposed to be a hardware limitation due to FP Blending kinda got added at the last moment and shouldn't be in future versions). Anyways due to a FP framebuffer speeds would likely be horrible due to the much increased RAM requirement if you were trying to using AA. Likely the hardware that combines the AA is instead in FP blend mode is convert FP's back to integers for use by the RAMDAC or DVI.
They a projector display but that didn't work as well as the impressive LED LCD Display they were showing off at SIGGraph (which I heard it was really impressive to look at the reason the projector isn't as impressive is due to not as bright plus damn thing is huge if you look at the pictures). Basically its a normal LCD but instead of a normal backlight they have grids of white LED's (not 1:1 but like 1 LED:1800 Pixels or so). The people who did that monitor said they were looking forward to cards with FP Blending capabiities which should really help improve the performance of the card working with it.
While HDR blending can be done with PS2 and without FP Blending the issue is multiple passes are going to have lousy quality (will have to be stored as an integer in the framebuffer where it loses its extra quality it had in the shader before it can make the next pass where as FP Blending blends the passes into a FP framebuffer). And its much more simplistic with FP Blending as well.
burningrave101
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 11,825
agentzero9 said:
Higher resolutions and high AA have nothing to do with it. The 6800GT wins almost every time in nearly every game until high AF is enabled. If you enable 8xAF or 16xAF then the X800Pro is able to keep up with and sometimes beat the 6800GT, especially at high resolutions because of its AF optimizations and slightly higher fill rate.
Its alot the same way with the 6800u vs the X800XT PE. The 6800u wins nearly every time at most every resolution and with 4xAA enabled but when you enable 8xAF or higher the X800XT PE takes the lead alot of the time in D3D games because of its higher pixel fill rate.
Thats in D3D games though. In OpenGL games the GT is untouched even at 16xAF.
The 6800's seem to take somewhat of a hit scaling from 2xAF to 8xAF. It levels off at 8xAF to 16xAF though because there is almost no difference between the two levels except in games with extreme view distances.
Quoted from one of the latest X800Pro reviews.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/pc-radx800pro-extreme_8.html
SithSolo1 said:
Sorry, it was only available on the morning of the first day the preorder page was available. They did honor the price though for everyone who got in on the deal. From the number of people who have posted about it on various forums, it looks like a couple hundred people got it.
I've looked at the dribble shader code and yeah its a mess, he is using these weird custom shader calls but being poorly coded is a rough path for both cards. I agree Fp blending is the way to go as long as you have a display that is capable of reproducing the image and right now we don't. The closest we are (imo) is with OEL and that is about a year or two (at best) before we see those in retail . So why take a larger preformace hit for something that can't be displayed? Its great to see devs using the latest and greatest hardware to its potential, I'll also give kudos to nvidia for putting it on the 6800 and it being able to run at decent frame rates (I've heard mid 40s avg in Far Cry @ 1024x7). Its like I said though, if I can't see the difference between fp blending and ps2.0 hdr, and 2.0 has better preformace I'd rather see that. Mabey someone will make a wrap (for the far cry 1.3 patch) that will let it run on the ati cards so we can see if I am full of it or not
Not to make fun, but I don't understand what your saying in the 3rd paragraph. The only thing I got was the projector I mentioned is huge, with that I agree, but I have seen bigger. I saw a DLP HD projector that was at least 10x6 FEET, this thing was massive.
Not to make fun, but I don't understand what your saying in the 3rd paragraph. The only thing I got was the projector I mentioned is huge, with that I agree, but I have seen bigger. I saw a DLP HD projector that was at least 10x6 FEET, this thing was massive.
TangledThorns
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2004
- Messages
- 265
Its amazing how quick Nvidia was able to get their shit together after ATI announced their x800 line. Here is a quote from a HardOCP article on ATI's latest card a few months ago. Nvidia really pwned ATI and HardOCP on that one.
http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjExLDEw
on that one. http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjExLDEw
As far as competition being good for the consumer, I don't really think this is the case for video cards (that much) and we will be seeing expensive video cards in the future. For gaming, there's only two possible manufacturers out there - ATI and NVIDIA. There's not exactly much competition and whatever one company does the other is likely to match.
For example, look at the high price of the latest video cards. I'm sure ATI or NVIDIA could undercut their competitor but that would net them nothing as their competitior's reaction would be the exact same - lowering prices. Both companies are aware of this and realize that they can make more money by keeping prices higher. Whoever decides to slash prices will do more harm than good for their bottom line.
For example, look at the high price of the latest video cards. I'm sure ATI or NVIDIA could undercut their competitor but that would net them nothing as their competitior's reaction would be the exact same - lowering prices. Both companies are aware of this and realize that they can make more money by keeping prices higher. Whoever decides to slash prices will do more harm than good for their bottom line.
tranCendenZ
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2004
- Messages
- 3,844
agentzero9 said:
No, especially when the 6800GT gains tons more from its overclock than the x800pro does since the 6800GT is 16x1 and the x800pro is 12x1.
tornadotsunamilife
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,492
i have to admit though for a system thats meant to compete with 16 pipelines and only has 12 itself the x800pro isn't that bad power wise although since they're the same price the 6800gt is still best choice right now
I don't understand why people would want someone they percieve to be losing to give up? "We lost this round, but instead of wasting money and time on a new series, we'll put it towards R&D for the next generation." So if the tables were turned, if this were true that is, that if Nvidia were to rename their series XT series, would that be a smart move. Oh wait..
I know, that's why. I wrote "Oh wait" I guess people tend to forget that at one point in time, Nvidia were losing. And like them or hate them, they did not give up. So anyone in their right minds, think that once a company is losing, they should just take their ball, and look into the future, has some blinders on. And does anyone have any idea how much R&D costs for "future" products?
I guess people tend to forget that at one point in time, Nvidia were losing. And like them or hate them, they did not give up. So anyone in their right minds, think that once a company is losing, they should just take their ball, and look into the future, has some blinders on. And does anyone have any idea how much R&D costs for "future" products?Guss ill be upgradeing to something in the near future....my 9800pro just dosnt seem all that good anymore..Me like the sound the the 6800gt, but ill wait to see what ATI dose..
After all, dipers and forumula isnt gettign cheaper, and untill it dose my video card saveings equals 20 bucks a mounth... and my time to use a new $400 dollar videocard equals about 20 mins a mounth......mabey my 9800pro is just fine...
EDIT: BTW: i do miss NVIDIA's drivers....
After all, dipers and forumula isnt gettign cheaper, and untill it dose my video card saveings equals 20 bucks a mounth... and my time to use a new $400 dollar videocard equals about 20 mins a mounth......mabey my 9800pro is just fine...
EDIT: BTW: i do miss NVIDIA's drivers....
theNoid said:
i must say i have the same feeling about this - and it reminds me of the time nVidia was developing massively for xBox and seemed to have had problems to keep up in the PC arena in that time. now with ATI rumored to build *both* grafics cores for xBox2 and nintendo i find it incredible how they can focus their resources to keep up with or even beat nVidia in some scenarios... however, subjectively this round is booked as a win for nVidia in my book. if HL2 had made it to the stores earlier than D3 it would have been ATI's money burning holes into the buyers pockets right now - but now with Doom this close it's all nVidias market if you sk me. bummer for our canadian friends, isn't it?
NewBlackDak
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2003
- Messages
- 1,322
That's so stupid.
They should have done like all the other lines.
The curret X800Pro should be an X800, the fastest should be the X800XT, and the new one should have been here from the start as an X800Pro. All the ridiculous names do nothing, but confuse people about the speed of the card they think they're getting, and disappoint them when they get it home.
They should have done like all the other lines.
The curret X800Pro should be an X800, the fastest should be the X800XT, and the new one should have been here from the start as an X800Pro. All the ridiculous names do nothing, but confuse people about the speed of the card they think they're getting, and disappoint them when they get it home.
101998 said:
The point of HDR isn't to display really high contrast images. Instead its to be able to do things like you see in the rthdribl demo where the exposure changes automatically. Basically if someone currently shines a bright light in your face in a FPS you can see fine, in a game where it has HDR you would literally be blinded if the rest the room is dark due to the system decreasing exposure level. Thats the use of it so you go from a bright room to a dark room its hard to see till your in-game "eyes" adjust.
101998 said:
Heh, sorry about that third paragraph, it was a mess due to me writing it and realizing there was some major errors in it and I quickly shuffled and deleted things around and it doesn't make sense. The problem with the projector system its only a screen not a projector so you have a huge thing on your desk thats the size of a screen. At least that DLP HD projector I bet was actually a projector that projected onto a huge screen.
Edit: Also meant to say the HD LCD was desirable and shouldn't be much more expensive to produce than current LCD's (prolly couple hundred more or so for the LED's instead of backlight).
archevilangel
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2003
- Messages
- 1,824
it's about time they did. Theoretically they should be even with the x800 pro having a slightly higher fillrate, and the 6800 gt offering slightly more bandwidth, but as we know those are meaningless now . Just look at the 6800 ultra and x800 xt-pe, or the 5900 and 9800, relatively big gaps in fillrate and bandwidth but similar performance. Currently I like ati's 6x aa for modern games, but I love nvidia's 16xS mode for older games like tfc. Driver wise they are pretty close(though I do like nvidia's opengl and layout of the cpanel better).
. Just look at the 6800 ultra and x800 xt-pe, or the 5900 and 9800, relatively big gaps in fillrate and bandwidth but similar performance. Currently I like ati's 6x aa for modern games, but I love nvidia's 16xS mode for older games like tfc. Driver wise they are pretty close(though I do like nvidia's opengl and layout of the cpanel better).longshot said:
Don't forget, ATI's completely re-written OpenGL drivers should be available at the same time Doom3 hits shelves. Me thinks the delta in Doom3 is going to be much much smaller than most people think
6800GT is still a beast of a card and will have a home in my system when I upgrade this fall ( 9800Pro will still be fine for D3/HL2).
Entz said:Don't forget, ATI's completely re-written OpenGL drivers should be available at the same time Doom3 hits shelves. Me thinks the delta in Doom3 is going to be much much smaller than most people think
6800GT is still a beast of a card and will have a home in my system when I upgrade this fall ( 9800Pro will still be fine for D3/HL2).
You are putting your faith in their new driver being good? Years have passed and ATI hasn't been able to write a decent OGL driver. But now all of a sudden their new one is going to rock? Yeah right. It's hype.