Ati 4870X2 Defeats MicroStuttering

I think that both statements "I've never seen a microstutter, so it is just a FUD" and "Microstutter is real, single GPU FTW" are amusing.

I wonder how many of those people who made such claims have actually used a multi GPU setup before?
 
Some one please tell me how i knew POPEGOLD started this thread, when all i had even saw was the thread title? Nevermind how he took someone elses link, and nevermind how he absolutely HAD to start a new thread about it, even though it was already posted elsewhere...

POPEGOLD said:
i saw it... but with all the talk of MICROSTUTTERING... think this needs its own thread
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Of course you do. You think every single piece of insigificant information, or your own unfounded speculation with nothing to back it up, needs its own thread.

alg7_munif said:
I think that both "I've never seen a microstutter, so it is just a FUD" and "Microstutter is real, single GPU FTW" statements are amusing.

I wonder how many of those people who made such claims have actually used a multi GPU setup before? :rolleyes:
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Im with you on this one.

I used 8800 GT SLI before i knew what microstutter was, and didnt see anything, however, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist, especially since so many people notice it and complain about it.
 
Still, you don't go running around trying to sweep this kind of shit under the rug. If it's there, and if it's a potential problem, then you shine the light on it.
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Oh I agree, but I'm simply amazed of all the "hey gais the sky is falling due to micro-stuttering" posts. There's a difference between shinning the light on a subject and beating it to death (I'm not suggesting you did anything wrong, but the sheer amounts of misinformation in that "Micro-stuttering FAQ" thread is staggering).

I wonder how many of those people who made such claims have actually used a multi GPU setup before?
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Hardly any, which only adds fuel to the flames.
 
I think part of the problem is that most people don't notice it, and thus don't know what they're talking about. "Micro" stuttering could mean anything until you actually see that the "micro" is in in milliseconds, not seconds. You have to have a good eye to catch this sort of thing - I've seen people in online reviews say that my LCD has horrible input lag, but I've never noticed.

BF2 stuttered on me when I ran it with not enough RAM in Vista when I had a billion other windows open. It only would pause for about two seconds, so I guess I'm a victim of microstuttering!
 
LstOfTheBrunnenG said:
I think part of the problem is that most people don't notice it, and thus don't know what they're talking about. "Micro" stuttering could mean anything until you actually see that the "micro" is in in milliseconds, not seconds. You have to have a good eye to catch this sort of thing - I've seen people in online reviews say that my LCD has horrible input lag, but I've never noticed.
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I look at it this way: Different people notice / are bothered by the following issues to varying degrees:

- Input lag
- Ghosting
- Screen tearing
- Microstuttering

According to my coworkers, my work LCD monitor ghosts pretty badly, but *I* have to actively be looking for it to notice. My LCD TV at home has minor tearing at 60Hz, but I only occasionally notice, and it doesn't bother me enough to enable vsync. Microstuttering catches my eye (and annoys the heck out of me) pretty quickly if it happens to be significant enough.
 
Have you tried enabling Triple buffering and Vsync, those that notice microstuttering?
 
There is no way you can dismiss micro-stuttering as FUD. In the last year I've had the following multi GPU configurations

2x 8800GTX 640MB
2x 8800GT 512MB
2x 8800GTS 512MB
3870x2
3870x2 Quadfire
9800GX2
9800GX2 Quad SLI

Each of these configurations suffered from micro-stuttering at varying levels from slightly annoying to completely unplayable. Frames per second and cost are secondary to me when compared to actual playability. That's why I'm so pleased with my single GTX 280; while I've had configurations that render more frames per second, none have come even close in terms of playability.

If ATi can indeed deliver the 4870x2 without micro-stuttering I will be the first in line to shell out $549 for the sumbitch. I'm extremely skeptical, especially since very similar rumors were floating around about the 3870x2 and that never came to pass. Here's to hoping!
 
One guy raises the "No microstutter" flag for the 4870x2, and people want to assume it's 100% proven and true. None of us will know until we see multiple reviews confirming the state of microstutter in 4870x2.

We'll need to know the effect of using or not using v-sync, with ant without tripple buffering. We'll need to know how the card behaves when frames drop below the monitor's refresh rate.

So far, there has been no one can point to a definitive reason why microstutter would be fixed in 4870x2. They have some nebulous ideas that the new PLX bridge is some sort of miracle chip. And maybe it is...But we can't say for sure until reviews come.
 
POPEGOLD said:
U have severe Microstuttering because u have been told u have it. Period

Dont matter that you dont see it... do u see gravity or the wind.. no but its there

make sense? if u dont see microstuttering doest mean its not there making it impossible to play your games


( this post is sacrastic.... microstuttering is the biggest FUD In 2008 )
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yeah i agree there, i get so much undetectable microstuttering on my 3870 crossfire setup it's almost unbearable to turn my computer on.
 
nissanztt90 said:
Some one please tell me how i knew POPEGOLD started this thread, when all i had even saw was the thread title? Nevermind how he took someone elses link, and nevermind how he absolutely HAD to start a new thread about it, even though it was already posted elsewhere...



Of course you do. You think every single piece of insigificant information, or your own unfounded speculation with nothing to back it up, needs its own thread.



Im with you on this one.

I used 8800 GT SLI before i knew what microstutter was, and didnt see anything, however, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist, especially since so many people notice it and complain about it.
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me and u need to work on getting along better...
 
Kowan said:
Have you tried enabling Triple buffering and Vsync, those that notice microstuttering?
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Yup. IIRC, it didn't help, most likely because, if it takes one GPU 50ms (=20 fps) to render a particular frame, you still have the potential for both GPUs to be spending that much time working simultaneously with no frame output in the interim.

The only thing that I tried that ever had any noticeable alleviation of microstuttering was a third-party tool called fpslimiter ( http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=fb43bd384163108ecc2cdfe7e2034947 ), which I found out about from PCGamesHardware. The tool works for DX8/DX9/OpenGL games (not DX10). Throttling the frame rate to slightly lower than my expected average fps actually did work, apparently by keeping the frame scheduling more consistent. Very clunky workaround, though.
 
Seems like only some people have it/notice it. Maybe it's a certain system component/setup that causes the frames to be rendered more out of order than other people's setups???

There hasn't been any extensive testing done on it, so maybe it could be certain setups....
 
I for one thought it was FUD, until i saw video's and accually understood what was going on.

I have a 8800GT and an SLI mobo, and when the new 4800's came out I Was seriously thinking of going the SLI Route, until I did research about Micro-stuttering. Is it blown out of purpotion? i have no idea. All I cared about is how games played, and if it was possible I could get it (and its like a 50-50 thing you either see it and notice it, or you dont).

Why I Was curious and happy to hear its been fixed on the dual GPU ATI cards. I want a single card, that can play at 1920X1200 with everything maxed with almost any game.

Just my .02c
P.S. thanks for the props :) lookin foward to the 4870x2 next month
 
Man I still got two more weeks, and I am within a return period for the hd 4870, if I get an RMA right before the 30 day return policy I get additional two weeks for return, I normally don't return stuff but this seems like a good buy for another 250.
 
nVidia Fanboy HQ, chapter 1

Pre Sampsa post- Quick! Spread all the possible, imposibble and unpossible cases where MS can happen! Shove 8800GTs down the shatForce boards without replying back!

Post Sampsa post- Aww. Darn. Now slowly, quietly draw back that point, and focus on every other noticable bullshit pricking. If anyone objects, flame.
 
TKD said:
I look at it this way: Different people notice / are bothered by the following issues to varying degrees:

- Input lag
- Ghosting
- Screen tearing
- Microstuttering

According to my coworkers, my work LCD monitor ghosts pretty badly, but *I* have to actively be looking for it to notice. My LCD TV at home has minor tearing at 60Hz, but I only occasionally notice, and it doesn't bother me enough to enable vsync. Microstuttering catches my eye (and annoys the heck out of me) pretty quickly if it happens to be significant enough.
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Agreed. My monitor is the Samsung 245T, which supposedly has the worst input lag of all the modern computer monitors (some people go as far to say that you can see a delay when typing), but I never seem to notice.

On the other hand, screen tearing annoys me incredibly. My brother plays a lot of CSS and TF2 and I asked why he didn't enable vsync. I proceeded to point out all of the screen tearing that was occuring as it occured, but he had absolutly no idea what I was talking about.

Most of these phenomenons are a case of the "ingnorance is bliss" syndrom, where if you don't know about the problem and actively try to find it, you probably won't notice it; but once you do see it, you'll always be bothered by it.
 
rennyf77 said:
you're absolutely right about that. it really takes a perfect storm of circumstances to bring the problem out; games settings, resolutions, the use of various transparency anti aliasing methods, and quite possibly cpu clock speed as well.
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I think the effect exists in all cases, even with single GPU's since frames are never renderd in equal time intervals, the variance is so small with a single GPU we cannot notice it, with a dual GPU set up i think that becomes naturally more noticeable and no doubt certain settings amplify this effect even more.

POPEGOLD said:
So its time to start the 4870 buyers remorse thread then?
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I dont think so, i thinkt he reason people see microstutter is that they've been taught to play games at speeds of 30fps which is choppy as hell to begin with, when you start playing your games at proper frame rates like 50-60 average, then not only does microstutter become unoticeable but you get rid of the issues when fps drops due to extreme circumstances like too many effects on screen etc.

I have 2 4870's and run all my games on max and still get 60fps+ averages, theres only a handful of exceptions, like Crysis.

Also I have to ask about the 4870x2, are both the cores on that card the same speed as a regular 4870?
 
u notice inputlag if your good in fps shooters.

Using my crt I nail people before they can hit me, using lcd, this can become hopeless due to the slight delay.
the samsung 204ts was unplayable using bf2.

my new lenovo 220x is much better even if there is a slight delay there also.
however, this screen makes it worthile using a lcd to play with :)
 
Lost! said:
nVidia Fanboy HQ, chapter 1

Pre Sampsa post- Quick! Spread all the possible, imposibble and unpossible cases where MS can happen! Shove 8800GTs down the shatForce boards without replying back!

Post Sampsa post- Aww. Darn. Now slowly, quietly draw back that point, and focus on every other noticable bullshit pricking. If anyone objects, flame.
Click to expand...


i beg your pardon?
 
mikecoscia said:
Wait so

CF 4870s or 4850 = microstuttering
4870X2 = no microstuttering

???
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Because the GPUs wont have to send traffic to each other across the PCI-E bus or the intercard link, they will talk to each other much faster and will not be prone to PCI-E issues or slower bus speeds.
Therefore timing control between them will be cleaner and faster.
A x2 card could reduce microstutter to the extent that it cant be seen on screen.
 
Without a profile, it might be using one card plus the overhead of CF?
Would need to see benches without and later once ATi adds a profile to tell.
They are doing much better releasing hot fixes with newer games than in the past.
 
Kowan said:
Without a profile, it might be using one card plus the overhead of CF?
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Not exactly, but one of AFR's weaknesses is inter-frame dependencies (ie: frame A has information that frame B needs). There is (currently) no real fast way to share this information between cards (ie: basically we have the bridges and the PCI-E bus). AMD obviously has no way of determining what inter-frame dependencies a certain game has without first testing it. Therefore they have a default AFR profile (think of it as a safe/compatible profile) that shares more information than it (probably) has to between the cards (to ensure Crossfire at least works with the game). When AMD "creates" a profile for a game they more or less find out exactly what information the game needs to be shared between the cards (thus cutting down the overhead, latency, and increasing the performance versus the default AFR profile).
 
Sanpsa said:
Ok, I finished testing with R700, 4870 CF, 3870 X2 and GeForce 9800 GX2 (Single and SLI mode) and recorded frametimes in Crysis and Unreal Tournament 3 demo:

The worst case scenario happened with 3870 X2 in Crysis when every other frame was rendered after ~21,5 ms and every other after ~49,5 ms. However in UT3 demo 3870 X2 provided stable ~11,5 - 12,6 ms rendering times between the frames.

R700 seems to be very strong and it rendered every frame after ~21,6 - 22,1 ms in Crysis and ~11,5 - 11,9 ms in UT3.

Also 4870 CF provided equally good results compared to R700 and rendered every frame after ~21,3 - 21,7 ms in Crysis and ~11,2 - 12,1 ms in UT3.

GeForce 9800 GX2 showed alot more variation in rendering times and frames were rendered after ~21,9 - 25,1 ms in Crysis and ~7,4 - 11,5 ms in UT3.

PLEASE NOTE!

These results are measured and analyzed with simple tools including Fraps and Excel. In my own conclusion, it seems that microstuttering depends on game engine and if we leave 3870 X2 in Crysis out from the results it looks like NVIDIA's SLI (9800 GX2) is suffering more from microstuttering than AMD's CrossFire.
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http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=192829&page=22

Has anyone mentioned this post yet? He said that 4870 crossfire was equally good.
 
christpunchersg said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYnXxI1UjxE

I don't see how people can deny microstuttering as if it's some sort of fable. Unless you're really that horrible in spotting it or you're just plain bad at FPSs, you can CLEARLY see the gx2 stuttering like crazy in that video in comparison to the other 3 cards.
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I dont deny it exists and is a serious issue for some gamers but that video looked just as good on all cards.
It doesnt help being a frame limited movie in extremely low res, but hey.
Maybe your display makes it look worse, I'm not sure, but there has to be something making it look worse on some systems.
My display is a plasma HDTV for reference.
 
some people can be dooped into seeing things that aint there.... like microstuttering FUD
 
ez fix for microstuttering is run a strobe light in the pc room... ;)
 
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