ARM server status update / reality check

Discussion in 'All non-AMD/Intel CPUs' started by pxc, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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  2. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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  3. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm tempted to get one just to... play with it.

    Have a few 'junk' monitors and assorted peripherals that would make for a straightforward "1x computer in corner" machine.
     
  4. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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  5. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yeah, I guess I stand corrected, and the Pi has enough market-share for Broadcom to justify a complete redesign. I have no complaints about this!

    That, and the Nvidia Nano is going to need a $50 price cut (this does everything it does for half the price).
     
  6. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That depends on what you're looking for:

     
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  7. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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  8. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yeah, SQ1 looks like the first serious effort to get ARM on Windows. No surprise it's left to Microsoft to make this happen.

    Of course, they announced the Snapdragon 8CX in May, and the galaxy book s in early August, and you still can't buy it? Time is ticking for this thing's marketability :rolleyes:

    RISC V will always be that technology that is "just around the corner," just like Linux on the desktop. It will find corner cases to give it some momentum (WD using RISCV on disk controllers, as an example), but ARM already has too much market share to give it any easy win.

    The people who think RISC V will be in servers anytime soon make me laugh. These people have not been watching what AMD did with Rome. It's enough off a performance/watt and perf/dollar improvement over Intel to gain x86 some unexpected server momentum, and completely kill any growth potential for alternative architectures for at least the next couple years. ARM has first-,mover rights, and RISC V is going to have a hard time getting any traction.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  9. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I think we'll get there, but I really don't think it will be soon. Like any hardware, it'll take a 'killer application' to drive demand, and making the ISA 'free' doesn't help that much given the capital investment that is needed to get a wafer run from a fab in the first place.
     
  10. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    There is no "killer app" advantage of RISC V vs ARM. They're both RISC architectures, with similar theoretical perf/watt. As of a recent announcement by ARM, both have the ability to add custom instructions to your architecture. You have the freedom to design your own custom cores for both architectures.

    The only remaining difference is licensing costs, but considering how many ARM OEMs are taking the easy way out (and tweaking existing ARM, rather than build-your own from scratch), it seems to be well-worth the cost of entry.

    I don't see that changing anytime soon on the consumer side (with a complete lack of powerful RISCV cores for OEMs to choose from and tweak). And as for server, it isn't five years ago: today you have almost a dozen powerful ARM CPUs to choose from, leaving zero opportunities for another server architecture.

    And once RISC V vendors build-up that valuable list of powerful and efficient IP Cores to compete directly with ARM and get those Chip OEM design wins, you're not exactly going to give them away for free. So the cost benefits of having an open instruction set are still up in the air. And thanks to ARM letting you customize their cores (for a higher fee), they've been able to essentially centralize CPU developments that used to be wasteful and separate! And as a result, their A70 series cores are more powerful than they've ever been!

    RISC V is much nicer for students, but I don't see those benefits making such a big deal once these things get mass-produced and powerful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
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  11. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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  12. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    Amazon announcement of new ARM-based servers and AWS services. Custom 7nm silicon built over Neoverse cores. Amazon customers can already test them

    https://aws.amazon.com/es/about-aws...eneration-arm-based-aws-graviton2-processors/

    Performance and price compared to Skylake and Cascade Lake Xeons

    https://aws.amazon.com/es/blogs/aws...ute-optimized-memory-optimized-ec2-instances/

    ARM-based AWS instances are coming before Rome-based instances. Amazon will use those ARM servers for its own internal workloads and also will sell them to customers

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...cloud-hardware-to-outrun-microsoft-and-google
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  13. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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  14. OFaceSIG

    OFaceSIG 2[H]4U

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    There is a reason ARM is being used internally only at first. ANY off the shelf software will need to be re-written. x86 emulation on ARM blows anus. Microsoft provides it on their ARM version of 10, but only 32-bit and it's very slow. Very few vendors are going to want to re-write their software for ARM, x86 is too common.
     
  15. Auer

    Auer [H]ard|Gawd

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    https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/

    AWS Graviton processors are custom-built by Amazon Web Services using 64-bit Arm Neoverse cores to deliver the best price performance for your cloud workloads running in Amazon EC2. Amazon EC2 provides the broadest and deepest portfolio of compute instances, including many that are powered by latest-generation Intel and AMD processors. AWS Graviton processors add even more choice to help customers optimize performance and cost for their workloads.

    The first-generation AWS Graviton processors power Amazon EC2 A1 instances, the first ever Arm-based instances on AWS. These instances deliver significant cost savings over other general-purpose instances for scale-out applications such as web servers, containerized microservices, data/log processing, and other workloads that can run on smaller cores and fit within the available memory footprint.

    AWS Graviton2 processors deliver a major leap in performance and capabilities over first-generation AWS Graviton processors. They power Amazon EC2 M6g, C6g, and R6g instances that provide up to 40% better price performance over comparable current generation instances1 for a wide variety of workloads, including application servers, micro-services, high-performance computing, electronic design automation, gaming, open-source databases, and in-memory caches. The AWS Graviton2 processors also provide enhanced performance for video encoding workloads, hardware acceleration for compression workloads, and support for CPU-based machine learning inference. They deliver 7x performance, 4x the number of compute cores, 2x larger caches, and 5x faster memory compared to the first-generation Graviton processors.
     
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  16. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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  17. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    Paypal and other companies have been using ARM servers for a while. AWS customers like Smugsmug migrated to ARM since first gen Graviton

    Amazon-Arm-SmugMug-Large.jpg

    AWS customers already can test second gen Graviton



    and the datacenter link given above reports some users that have been using first gen Ampere servers.
     
  18. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    Amazon chose Neoverse (not Rome) for its internal workloads, and ARM-based AWS instances are available to customers whereas ROME-based instances aren't deployed yet.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/moorin...viton2-processors-with-ec2-6th-gen-instances/
     
  19. schmide

    schmide Limp Gawd

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    Nobody knows what amazon uses for its internal workloads. I highly doubt they limit themselves to just ARM. If you can prove this please do so, but don't infer something without a source.

    Disjointed metrics and false equivalences. Whatever share ARM has now and grows into, does not compare to the existing Epyc install base, which in turn does not compare to the intel install base. These things don't change overnight. Both Rome and Neoverse are going to exist in AWS. They are different segments with different market turnover. Starting a pissing contest now will only lead to stage fright.
     
  20. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    "We're going big for our customers and our internal workloads"

    "AWS' initial strategy is to move its internal services to Graviton2-based infrastructure. Graviton2 required significant investment, but AWS can garner returns and improve its operating margins due to the ability to cut out middlemen involved with procuring processors, power savings due to Arm and efficiency gains from optimizing its own infrastructure."

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/aws-g...-arm-in-the-data-center-cloud-enterprise-aws/

    Don't mix present tense with future tense. Graviton2-based instances already exist and can be tested by customers now. Rome-based instances aren't deployed yet.
     
  21. schmide

    schmide Limp Gawd

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    Those quotes are out of context and disjointed. It is Larry Dignan who adds the context afterwards. Not amazon.

    This is at best dishonest. If amazon does make this move, which I do not discount, it would be big news and probably all over the place. The fact that one blogger picks and chooses a quote, does not make this so.

    I quote
    IMO preview != deployment which is why I phrased future tense as not to mislead.

    Edit: To make things clear.

    You used different terms and generalities to express your bias.

    ARM-based != Graviton2
    Rome-based not deployed.

    This infers deployment of Graviton2 but they are just in preview.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  22. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    He interviewed Amazon people and is reporting Amazon plans. Its internal workloads will be handled by ARM servers.

    Graviton2 instances are ready for testing. Rome instances aren't.
     
  23. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    ThunderX3 will come out in the early part of 2020, with a greater than 2X generational performance improvement compared to TX2.

    ThunderX3 will be a monolithic design, not chiplet.

    The IPC jump combined with the clock speed jump is expected to be around 50%.

    "We have about a 20 percent die area advantage over Naples, and we have a similar power advantage."

    "And when we move to 7 nanometers with ThunderX3, we see that our area and power advantage actually gets better. Our area compared to AMD Rome and Intel Ice Lake is better, and our power efficiency will be significantly better."

    https://www.nextplatform.com/2019/12/10/looking-ahead-to-marvells-future-thunderx-processors/
     
  24. schmide

    schmide Limp Gawd

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    Yet not a single quote by amazon in the article says what you are saying. Thus this is his interpretation not amazons.

    You choose to state it as fact before it is confirmed by any direct source. At least Jim from AdoredTV understands the difference between fact, leak, and inference. Someday you may reach his level.

    Now this may be true. I personally believe that Graviton2 will be used internally by AWS.

    IMO it will not be ubiquitous. The needs of such a large company will require a myriad of compute systems.

    That is a proper statement. See it's not that hard.
     
  25. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And this is supposed to somehow get me worried about someone actually paying money for a RiscV Server chip?

    ARM server processors have a 5 year head-start on RiscV, and you've got almost a dozen different brands established now. That's a very crowded market to make inroads into.

    And thanks to Fujitsu's ARM SVE-powered Post-K supercomputer, RiscV HPC vector advancements look more like child's play:

    https://www.eetimes.com/andes-core-has-risc-v-vector-instruction-extension/#

    And even "expensive" ARM is winning distributed cloud compute by-default, thanks to Amazon building their own with Gravitron 2!

    Since RISCV doesn't have the perf/watt advantage , there's not much chance of these server makers completely changing architectures AGAIN! The RISC re-invasion already happened, and developers universally decided the cost of a custom ARM license was worth it to beat x86!

    Just because someone gets together t develop a processor doesn't mean it will ever get used. RIscV is not too late for lower-performance/embedded usage, but server has a certain level of performance expectations today. You can't hope to make inroads with a ThunderX1-level product when all your competitors are bringing ThunderX3 or better to the table.

    RiscV has a much better chance io appearing in phones than it ever has of making it into a server. Once you add in the cost of making a complex server chip, the added overhead o buying an ARM incense is lost-in-the-noise; it's much easier to make a high-performing, fully compatible next-generation ARKM core.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  26. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    It is mentioned in the Zdnet article why Amazon will use Graviton2 for its internal workloads.

    This is easy to check. 64 N1 cores at 2.6GHz achieve about 1310 SPECint2006 and EPYC 7742 does about 1481, but one is a 105W chip and the other is a 245W chip. So Amazon can get similar throughput but at half the power.

    EPYC2 is totally destroyed.
     
  27. schmide

    schmide Limp Gawd

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    For the 100dth time. Source your scores.

    We all know the 1310 is an estimate from anandtech. The 1481 is from where ???

    It's freaking hard to source SPECint2006 because it is freaking useless. It was closed in 2017

    https://www.spec.org/cpu2006/results/res2017q2/cpu2006-20170529-47127.html

    2360

    Yeah it's dual, but it's also a 7601.

    Shenanigans
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  28. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    1310 is the score given by ARM during N1 presentation (it is also available on Hot-Chips slides), not an estimate from AT. The score of 1481 for 64C Zen2 follows from the AT review of EPYC 7742.

    The spec.org result that you give is using the AMD compiler, which is a compiler optimized to trick scores by breaking subtests as libquantum (as one can see in the graph). The same EPYC chip using a genuine compiler as GCC scores about 300 points less.

    An EPYC 7601 with GCC8 does 691 points. The Neoverse reference chip does 1310 points with GCC8. Graviton2 would probably do more and Ampere chip will do a lot of more.
     
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  29. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    I watched the event, and they said are moving to ARM for internal workloads.

    Whatever you say

    AWS-ECS2-Graviton-2-Instances-Large.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  30. schmide

    schmide Limp Gawd

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    Can you link to it. This isn't about which is better. It's about the proper flow of information.
     
  31. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    https://www.zdnet.com/article/aws-g...-arm-in-the-data-center-cloud-enterprise-aws/

    It was like the third result in Google seearch, so it wasn't exactly buried.
     
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  32. schmide

    schmide Limp Gawd

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    That's the previous link from post 100.

    What the juanrga's image refers to is this



    It says nothing close to

    In fact. They state a bit later 18min partners are leading the way with it.

    Look I have no doubt it is making ways into both internal and external workloads, but until I hear it from amazon. The above statement just doesn't square with the available information.
     
  33. juanrga

    juanrga Pro-Intel / Anti-AMD Just FYI

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    The image I posted is for proving that Graviton2 is coming to "M, R, and C instance families" and that your accusation that the journalist Larry Dignan was being "dishonest" when he wrote "AWS is launching new Arm-based versions of Amazon EC2 M, R, and C instance families" was both ridiculous and unfair.

    The video you have posted isn't the talk I referred to. In fact in the cut you give us Andy Jassy is talking about customers and partners of the A1, i.e. the original Graviton chip made of sixteen A72 cores.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
  34. schmide

    schmide Limp Gawd

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    The exact context in the article is this:
    I stand by my disjointed comment. These are 2 separate statements. One by Raj Pai the other by Larry Dignan. It is bad practice to take a quote as such without context an add another fact. Where did Raj Pai say this? Why is there only this 10 word quote from Raj? If there is a direct source from Raj to Larry, it is in a vacuum.

    Moreover. You added the above quote

    without context. They are 2 separate quotes from 2 different people AKA disjointed.

    So post the link to the talk or some semblance to what you are referencing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019