Are TN panels really as bad as everyone says?

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theactioncombo

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I'm in the market for a 20-24" monitor that doesn't break the bank. It will be mostly used for gaming, coding, and web design.

On this forum, many of you make it seem like TN panels are unbearable for any type of design work. The main points were this:

- Poor viewing angles
- Moving your head slightly causes the colors to change/distort
- Poor color accuracy

So, I was dead set on avoiding TN. But, today I decided to check out these monitors at my local best buy, and I don't really see what all the fuss is about. The colors did NOT distort if I moved my head slightly and I even tried viewing these monitors at extreme angles and saw nothing wrong. Am I completely missing something or are have TN panels improved recently?

Also...what monitor would you recommend? I don't really want to shell out $400 for a Dell 2007WPF if I can avoid it, but the monitor needs to be suitable for web design.
 
If you were looking panels from "extreme angles" and didn't see anything wrong, it wasn't a TN panel, or you have eyesight problems. TN panels severely "yellow" the image when viewed from right or left, and from below the colors darken starting at the top and eventually invert completely. This is an aspect to the technology that cannot be avoided or significantly improved upon more than it already has.

I am using one of the better TN panels and there are definite problems when I am doing Photoshop work. Certain color gradients have banding (though this is rare), many greys seem decidedly blue, and so forth. Remember that a TN panel can only natively display about 262,000 colors (rather than 16.7 million) and uses dithering or FRC (frame rate control, basically makes a pixel alternate between two colors really fast to emulate another color.) to "fake" the other colors.

Unfortunately in your price range everything but a couple of 20" are TN panels. For simple web design you'll probably be okay though. Photo work is where it shows up most, its not particular good at recreating a lot of the tones and colors you see in photographs.
 
Unless you're worried about professional color accuracy, don't listen to them. For general web design etc, theres nothing wrong with TN. For that matter I read a huge range of digital comics on my 22inch TN and think they are fantastic looking.

I'm at a loss as to why people worry about how their monitor looks from some extreme viewing angle. I personally tend to sit in front of my monitor and would think this is rather natural..
 
I agree about the viewing angles not being a huge issue, but even for non-professionals, I'd disagree that color isn't a big issue. Better color means better looking games and movies, more true to what the designer/director intended and more natural looking. And definitely color accuracy matters for web designers (though make sure not to get a wide-gamut display for that!), though perhaps not as much as some people make it out to be.

It probably depends somewhat on the individual monitors in question (perhaps the much-lauded BenQ G2400W is a better TN, for instance), but in my case I can say that the P-MVA LG L246WP looks a hundred times better than the TN Samsung 205BW, both right in front of me right now and both from around the same era (about a year old), and both (non-professionally, by eye) calibrated the best that I can. The MVA has much better contrast ratio, better blacks, and the colors look much more natural. With the Samsung, everything looks either too saturated, too washed out, or too tilted towards one color depending on the settings. Tweaking it forever can't get everything right. With the LG, everything was pretty close to perfect out of the (open) box, and lowering the red by a few percentage points made it show much truer whites than I'd ever seen out of the Samsung. Don't get me wrong; the Samsung TN served me well and is a decent monitor, but even with its faults (e.g.: gamma shift), the LG MVA is leagues ahead.
 
Ideally, I want to spent around $250 give or take. Many 20"-22" monitors fall in this range.

Which models, specifically, would you recommend for my purposes? Are any of them non-TN?

Also, this is for use with my macbook pro if that matters.
 
I did some testing on a 22" monitor (TN panel) at the store I was considering buying. When I put up a gray test screen, the monitor made it look like it was a gradient instead of a solid color. The full ugliness of TN became apparent to me right there.
 
when i look at a tn, i can clearly see that both of my eyes often aren't seeing the same image. i can also see that black on the top of the screen is different from black on the bottom. these things annoy me significantly; the difference is not JUST apparent at extreme angles.
 
NKDietrich said:
If you were looking panels from "extreme angles" and didn't see anything wrong, it wasn't a TN panel, or you have eyesight problems. TN panels severely "yellow" the image when viewed from right or left, and from below the colors darken starting at the top and eventually invert completely.
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Well given that 99% of monitors that are on display are TN, chances are he did see TN.

I have a TN in front of me. It does not yellow from the sides.

TNs merely have a "tell" in that the darken when looking at the monitor from below, otherwise like from the side, I find them better than *VA screens because they don't cause as much gamma shift, or do it in a more natural manner.

Viewing angles:

Vertical: IPS>VA>TN.
Horizontal: IPS>TN>VA.

Color is fine for anything but pro work IMO. My TN has better looking color than any CRT that I have owned, including the Phillips 202P4 21" trinitron sitting next to it.

Buying monitors is subjective. You need to see them for yourself. Do you let other people tell you what flavor of ice cream you like? No one can know which set of tradeoff will work for you.

For me TN has a good set of compromises and I find them overall better than PVA/MVA panels. If you like TN go ahead and get one.
 
Snowdog said:
Buying monitors is subjective. You need to see them for yourself. Do you let other people tell you what flavor of ice cream you like? No one can know which set of tradeoff will work for you..
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In the end, that is pretty much what it comes down to. Ideally you (the OP) would buy from a place that has easy, no-hassle, and no (or low) restocking-fee returns and try for yourself. If you like it (whichever monitor the "it" is), great, keep it! If not, return it and try again.
 
Flat images will show uneven illumination and a shift in luminance from top to bottom, even when viewed from head on. An image with a smooth gradient (a sunset or dusky sky, for example) will make dithering apparent. Instead of a smooth transition there will be blocked up patches of color which are there to compensate for the limited color palette that the monitor can display. If you can get past these aspects of the display then by all means pick one up.
 
Snowdog said:
Buying monitors is subjective. You need to see them for yourself.
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Exactly. LCDs are all about tradeoff and compromise unless you are talking about the high end $1000+ displays. To see which set of compromises you are happy with you need to give them a test drive and run them through their paces. View some webpages, some photos, play a game if you can, and then decide what you like.
 
I JUST got a BenQ G2400W, one of the "better" TN panels.

I honestly thought that the TN complaints were just due to forum users being a little to...obsessive about these things(sorry guys).

Nope. The viewing angles are driving me absolutely crazy! My screen isn't uniform, it's impossible to move my head to a position where it is uniform. It's driving me nuts. And I made the idiot mistake of ordering from newegg where they have a horrid return policy. Honestly, what was I thinking?!
 
TN panels are good...
but the worst thing about them is their very bad viewing angles !

incase u are a movie watchin buff and love to lie on ur bed or sofa... leave the idea of gettin a TN panel.
 
theactioncombo said:
I'm in the market for a 20-24" monitor that doesn't break the bank. It will be mostly used for gaming, coding, and web design.

On this forum, many of you make it seem like TN panels are unbearable for any type of design work. The main points were this:

- Poor viewing angles
- Moving your head slightly causes the colors to change/distort
- Poor color accuracy

.
Click to expand...

Because I was concerned about SDTV/DVD/HDTV PQ on my LCD, I bought an 8bit panel, however, I also have a friend who has a 226bw, and it was okay by and large{but not as good as mine}, but both Samsung and LG have newer high contrast ratio monitors with 8000-10 000:1CR, I'd look at one of those.

As for vertical contrast shift, there's none on my 8 bit when I'm sitting at my PC, but there was a tiny amount on the 226bw, but it was insignificant, and my understanding is that the viewing angles of the latest TN's have improved.

I think most people would be happy with a good quality 22-24TN, but I also think once you've owned a 8bit, you can't and won't want to go back.
 
In my case it was different. I have a Gateway 24" S-PVA monitor 8 bit. I moved up in size to this Hanns-G 28" TN. This Hanns displayed sharper text and has less backlight bleeding than my Gateway 24" On top of that, the Gateway has an annoying buzzing sound. My first 22" Westinghouse LCD did have backlight bleed all over and color was terrible, it was washed out compared to my Gateway 24" S-PVA panel.
 
HardwareGuru said:
In my case it was different. I have a Gateway 24" S-PVA monitor 8 bit. I moved up in size to this Hanns-G 28" TN. This Hanns displayed sharper text and has less backlight bleeding than my Gateway 24" On top of that, the Gateway has an annoying buzzing sound. My first 22" Westinghouse LCD did have backlight bleed all over and color was terrible, it was washed out compared to my Gateway 24" S-PVA panel.
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Yep....I do think that the latest TN's are better than the 2405Dell's etc, but the latest 8 bit panels are still numero uno.
 
Yes and no,

I have a BenQ G2400W sitting right next to a BenQ FP241VW and to be honest, the contrast shift from top to bottom is very slight compared to the contrast shift left and right on the FP241VW's MVA screen. Whereas looking at HF on the FP241VW shows a "3d silvery" gray which is darkest in middle, the TN screen only shows a very slight darkening at the top.

Of course I have found that all TN screens look best when viewed from a slight "up" angle where my eyes line up with the top of the screen.

My belief is that widescreen popularity is the greatest thing to happen to TN panel manufacturers because screens just aren't as "tall" as they used to be. No way I could recommend going any more than 24" on a TN panel, but that's personal taste.

So while I don't recommend getting a TN panel for color sensitive work, for the occasional photoshop user to do touch ups, or someone who is mostly doing office work or playing games, TNs are still tough to beat for value.

But I always suggest someone view them before buying them, as some are more sensitive to viewing angle changes than others.

Regards,

10e
 
BenQ G2400W piece of junk.. LOVE IT
also dell, acer and a hyundai
Dell is the only one NOT TN and it sucks for games.

the BenQ is great in games and supposed to have low input lag.

IF I was watching movies off center I would not get a TN
BUT who the really watches movies on a 24" monitor... IF that is all you do then get something else.
ps mine has hdmi input....do I replace my tv with it...no
but it would work for me if i had to I guess.
 
HardwareGuru said:
22" Acer AL2216Wbd (1680 x 1050) 16:10 aspect ratio
Panel: TN

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009094
Click to expand...

Just bought that myself, am using it to type this message. I do not have the "yellowing" from the side or "color inversion" from the top... Again, when I was looking at this monitor I read in many reviews "If you're doing professional imaging work you probably don't want this" but I'm no image pro so that aspect didn't matter to me.
 
All TN panels are poor in my experience. It's a case of getting a monitor that has the least amount of flaws and living with it. I accept that the viewing angles and colours are bad. Having said that I've had 3 TN panels and returned all, I'm still trying to get one with a relatively even backlight.
 
What do you mean? You love the G2400W or it's a piece of junk? Or both LOL?

I have tried the Hyundai W240D and, while it had a number of HD inputs (DVI, HDMI, VGA, component) the viewing angles were worse than the BenQ, and it did weird things with the PS3 over HDMI. Overscan at 16:9 or aspect mode, no overscan at 1:1, but 720p was shrunk to 1:1 with huge black borders on all sides.

These issues coupled with the horrible color calibration, and touchy and noisy front panel buttons made it a pain. The constant beeping from each button press (that I could not stop) made me crazy.

Returned it promptly.

The BenQ has basically zero input lag. The FP241VW is a frame behind always, and sometimes two, though I DO NOT believe the FP241VW has 40+ ms of input lag as listed in www.digitalversus.com unless maybe BFI (black frame insertion) adds lag.

Regards,

10e

sparks said:
BenQ G2400W piece of junk.. LOVE IT
also dell, acer and a hyundai
Dell is the only one NOT TN and it sucks for games.

the BenQ is great in games and supposed to have low input lag.

IF I was watching movies off center I would not get a TN
BUT who the really watches movies on a 24" monitor... IF that is all you do then get something else.
ps mine has hdmi input....do I replace my tv with it...no
but it would work for me if i had to I guess.
Click to expand...
 
My biggest gripe on a TN monitor is the viewing angle more than anything else. Other than that, they can deliver decent color and sharp text. I mean its no IPS, P-MVA etc monitor but, what can we do if most of the monitors available nowdays are TN. Just need to look for a decent enough TN panel that fits our needs.
 
I tried the Soyo 24" and got one of the recent ones with the TN panel. The fact that the corners never match what the center looks like in color or contrast it drove me nuts and it promptly went back to the store. The backlight was even, no dead pixels, but I was constantly shifting around trying to find the sweet spot and never quite getting there.

You don't have to be at some obscure angle to have the problems become annoyingly apparent. Just use your computer sitting directly in front of the monitor and you'll see it. If you do by a TN, get it somewhere where you can easily return it, you're probably going to take it back to the store. xmetal2001 described it perfectly.

Also, not all TNs invert from the top. The Soyo 24s that are TN (not the older *VA panels) invert from below.
 
Personally I think the reason a lot of people freak out over the quality of TN panels is the fact that it seems like the industry seems hell bent on sqeezing out every other type of panel in favor of the cheapest technology and biggest profit margin. Most of the TN panels I have seen looked like crap compared to the H-IPS screen I am using, but I think they are decent for the price.

I just hope they don't start using TNs extensively in LDC HDTVs, because I think TN is a step back in technology that is supposed to become better in terms of picture quality, viewing angle and speed.

If you are going to buy a TN monitor, though, think about what you are going to be using it for, and where.. If you are going to be sitting anywhere other than straight in front of it, you might have issues.
 
How the hell do you tell if it's a TN panel?

On new egg I looked and it didn't specify TN and NON TN panel.
 
From what I have read its the viewing angle, TN panels have a viewing angle of 160degrees anything beyond that is a non-TN. Also there are lists online and on this forum that have monitors and their panels.
 
As someone else mentioned, from stats of 160 degrees vertical viewing angle is a give away, but now they are saying 170 degrees horizontal instead to further throw us off.

Most TNs are specified at 2 or 5ms response time, while the best you'll see with MVA is 6ms generally, though that is also changing, and I believe I've seen some MVA panels listed at 5ms.

In person look at the panel from below. If the colors turn black or invert it's TN. From above they eventually wash out. But to be honest, with TNs it's never the "above" viewing angle that's the difficulty, it's the below.

Regards,

10e

stevedave said:
How the hell do you tell if it's a TN panel?

On new egg I looked and it didn't specify TN and NON TN panel.
Click to expand...
 
stevedave said:
How the hell do you tell if it's a TN panel?

On new egg I looked and it didn't specify TN and NON TN panel.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the manufacturers are being very coy about this one. Viewing angles, bit depth and response time are the biggest key. But now they're kinda fudging that too.

The bastards.
 
Yup,

Black frame insertion. There are controls to make it more or less visible. At 1 (the lowest) it's tolerable, and above that it's a nuisance and turns things dark.

It's not generally a feature I'll use playing dark games like Condemned, yet funny enough, MVA panels worst color speed is on dark colors.

Regards,

10e

vick1000 said:
BFI is image processing is it not?
Click to expand...
 
10e said:
As someone else mentioned, from stats of 160 degrees vertical viewing angle is a give away, but now they are saying 170 degrees horizontal instead to further throw us off.

Most TNs are specified at 2 or 5ms response time, while the best you'll see with MVA is 6ms generally, though that is also changing, and I believe I've seen some MVA panels listed at 5ms.

In person look at the panel from below. If the colors turn black or invert it's TN. From above they eventually wash out. But to be honest, with TNs it's never the "above" viewing angle that's the difficulty, it's the below.

Regards,

10e
Click to expand...

Well my Chimei is a TN and the Dells I use at work are MVA.

I must not be that big of a monitor buff because for what I use them for they are the same to me.

I was just curious because my next upgrade is to a 24" monitor, but this wont make that big of a deal considering I'm just going to get the cheapest glossy 24 or 25.5 incher.
 
I agree it is a matter of personal taste. I prefer VA monitore due to their better black, on the other hand, some people would tell me, there is no difference. It makes difference if you use your monitor in a dark room etc.
I'd recommend you to just try it. Just now I'm eagerly awaiting the delivery of my BenQ FP241W and I hope, it will not have that annoying "sparkly" antistatic screen as my currently used HP LP2465. Otherwise I'll have to... will have... to... resort... to... TN. Beacause 24" IPS are only being sold in the USA! (Damned selfish Yenkees :) )
 
No it's the damn Japanese. NEC > Nippon Electronics Corporation :)

BenQ has no sparkle. No need to worry there.

10e

Biges said:
I agree it is a matter of personal taste. I prefer VA monitore due to their better black, on the other hand, some people would tell me, there is no difference. It makes difference if you use your monitor in a dark room etc.
I'd recommend you to just try it. Just now I'm eagerly awaiting the delivery of my BenQ FP241W and I hope, it will not have that annoying "sparkly" antistatic screen as my currently used HP LP2465. Otherwise I'll have to... will have... to... resort... to... TN. Beacause 24" IPS are only being sold in the USA! (Damned selfish Yenkees :) )
Click to expand...
 
I never knew how far off my old monitor was until I bought a new Dell 2707 and sat it down beside it. Before that, the old monitor looked just fine to me. But now I see how far the color was off on the old monitor. I guess the moral of the story is if you are only going to have one monitor in front of you, you will not know what you are missing and it should look just fine. I think that most of these other folks must have super eyesight here ;).

LouP
 
retrorocketz said:
Unless you're worried about professional color accuracy, don't listen to them. For general web design etc, theres nothing wrong with TN. For that matter I read a huge range of digital comics on my 22inch TN and think they are fantastic looking.

I'm at a loss as to why people worry about how their monitor looks from some extreme viewing angle. I personally tend to sit in front of my monitor and would think this is rather natural..
Click to expand...

I am with you on the rabid concern over wide viewing angles, I sit in front my my monitor, not on the side of it, and I use only one not two at slightly greater angles. Viewing angles for most people should be fine unless you are going large.

Colors however are a big difference. most tn panels are mere 6 bit color panels, the ips panels and even most pva panels have 8 bit color. If you had ever seen the nec 20" as-ips panel in person, especially next to a tn panel, the difference is more than just striking, it makes you wonder why all tn panels are not burned. Next to an ips panel, at least a good one, tn panels look like trash. lower response times? The other panel types have sufficiently fast response times now, increased color gamut? pft, but not ACCURATE color. 10000:1 contrast ratio? lies and trickery and number fuddling


No, the virtues of the "quality" of tn panels are nothing more than lipstick on a pig. Don't kiss the pig OP, however cheap the meat. DON'T DO IT !!!!!!!!!!!
 
This question deserves to be broader.
The question might be better posed as how much noticeably worse are the better TN panels in regular direct-viewing usage (after calibration/tweaking) than other more expensive LCD panel types, considering the flawed LCD tech in both.

I would recommend the original poster, after reading up and narrowing it down to some lcds that don't have extreme complaints in general, try a few choice monitors out from a local brick and mortar that has a generous return policy if you can and see for yourself what you personally like or dislike in actual use. Just make sure to take the time to tweak the settings since many look nothing like their potential display quality when they are at the settings out of the box.

I'd also like to suggest that it might be good to run more than one monitor in dual mode (of different trade-off/panel types) if you feel you'd like the options of both available.


I've put some further thoughts on this below if you are interested:

I've seen plenty of TN panels that I find unacceptable. However not all panels are the same quality even of the same type (tn, IPS, MVA) of panel. You have to read up on reviews and feedback people have about a particular monitor model # no matter what the panel type.

Another thing is that most LCD's are turned up to a bazillion candlights brightness out of the box which makes many of them look like crap in my opinion. You aren't going to get your best contrast and color settings out of a screamingly bright screen. I suspect that viewing a monitor so bright might actually make backlight issues and differences in screen brightness appear as well (or at least appear much more obvious), from what I've seen in my own experience.

Once tweaked - with brightness turned way down or even off, and the contrast and digital vibrance turned up a bit perhaps, and rgb channels adjusted individually if necessary for starters - decent tn panels while being viewed directly look good even next to my 24" widescreen fw900 crt, which has full color and superior blacklevels/detail-in-blacks to any lcd, and which I use as my personal benchmark to compare my other monitor(s) to.

The major problem I have with decent modern lcd's, other than those with known bugs/issues and perhaps inferior response times, is the detail in blacks vs brightness setting. My 24" ws crt's black levels and detail in blacks are still far superior to LCDs. I also have a 34" sony xbr960 superfine pitch 1080i crt hdtv I still use it to watch hd movies from a couch about 6' or less away, which makes 34" ws acceptably 'large' for movie viewing perspective wise to me especially considering the quality I'm getting. But I digress. The point is that both of these 'high end' crt's have a better picture than any lcd or dlp desktop monitor or hdtv I've ever seen, especially the fw900 for graphics and image editing, and it has no 'native resolution' issue either. It almost makes me wonder "why LCD" at all, other than the obvious bulk of the crts. The crt tech in the fw900 even shows super crisp text at high refresh rates which virtually eliminates the one main viewing advantage lcds had over crt for me - crisper text with less eyestrain. I think the real pigs here might be the manufacturers flooding the market with LCD tech and perhaps holding back development and deployment of superior tech. In a way all LCDs are inferior products since they take a step backward in image quality. You just have a preference to which breed of pig you prefer I guess -- which flaws you prefer and how much money you want to spend on it.

I'd also like to say that although I lived with a 12ms response time for a few years on my westinghouse 37w3, I would not find it sufficient for gaming if I were paying $700 - $1100 on a desktop lcd as some are suggesting. 12ms blurs when you pan your FOV quickly in 3d worlds (FPS, 3rd person games, etc). My hannspree (HF-289HJB) 27.5" lcd with 2ms response time, which I recently purchased for under $500, does not.

That said, personally I wouldn't mind a 30" S-IPS with 2560x1600 desktop rez as a side panel for desktop applications if I found one for a steal some year in the future, but I wouldn't use one for gaming or 1080p movie viewing due to the native resolution being an unnecessary burden on hardware for games, and unnecessarily requiring upconversion for hd movies.
 
One strange think - TN monitors with glossy screens make my head and eyes hurt. No matter it the roomm is dark/light, if I change the brightness or other settings. I have no such problem with CRTs and non-glossy LCDs.
 
My thoughts on TN versus ISP/*VA goes as such..

Of course, the kind you go for all depend on your needs. If you're an elitist perfectionist(i.e. always must have the best) then don't settle for TN.

I am that type of person that must have the best.. but for a good price.. I just can't bring myself to spend top dollar when it's not justified. I don't photo edit much, I don't need my screens at odd angles. I don't *really* need IPS/*VA in the end.

However, after owning a dual screen setup using Samsung TN panels and then going to a MVA true 8bit panel the difference was stunning... I actually did notice the difference in color depth (banding is hugely obvious on most cheap TN panels). The colors on my new MVA panel look more realistic and less overblown. Whites are whiter (less bluish or yellowish) and blacks are more uniform. Contrast is worlds different between my TNs and MVA.. Movies are 200% more enjoyable on the MVA over the TNs.. details are evident... less black and white crushing.

In my opinion, don't go cheap on your LCDs.. especially if you sit in front of your computer for hours like I do... Now i'll never spend my money on TN panels ever again.. i've seen the light.

Money well spent.. it's a joy coming home from work and sitting in front of "real quality panels" versus the TN I have to deal with at work.. it's night and day.

Jay
 
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