Apple: Do Not Confirm/Deny or Remove Malware

[heatlesssun]

Would you rather be the guy in the middle of a firefight wearing Kevlar or would you rather sit on the sidelines knowing that there's some small likelihood that you might get grazed by a bullet?

Exactly, security by obscurity, i.e. low market share. As long as the market share of OSX remains low enough as to not attract a lot of attention from malware developers your point is logical.

 

[Azhar]

Often in my experience. When a computer left the shop i would make sure it was set to run at boot up, did the same with my parents pc`s and havent a headache since. But if you want to argue its validity thats another argument.

I have also ensured mine stays updated since my wife seems to think updates are unimportant and IGNORES them no matter how many prompts she gets. I go on a trip, come and find flash updates, 20+ windows updates and a slew of others, she handled it by continually clicking igore or "x" instead of just updating ... so aggravating!

All of them. In fact, by June 2006, the tool had successfully removed 16 million instances of Malware from 5.7 million unique windows machines.

So again, MS has been providing ongoing support for Malware removal for YEARS, offers free telephone support for all security issues. Apple on the other hand, refuses to admit or deny if a users Mac is infected with Malware, and instead makes the user deal with it on thier own.

The simple fact remains, at least when it comes to supporting users in reguards to Malware, MS support for these problems is far superior to Apples support for Malware.

Keep in mind I'm in IT and I run 5 PCs in the house and service friends and relatives' PC, particularly my brother's frequently infected PC (until he switched from XP to 7 anyways). In my experience, a vast majority of malware and virus prevent you from accessing popular sites with fixes and malware removal tips and tools, including windowsupdate.com. That's why I said that while yes, Microsoft has been vigilant about providing fixes for new malware and viruses, but there were many times I had troubles getting to it.

I know most of the tricks - IE proxy setting, network adapter DNS setting, HOSTS file, registry settings, and so on - and I've always been able to circumvent a virus's ability to get the fixes, even if it means downloading them to thumbdrive from another computer to fix the hosed one.

But mom and dad doesn't. My 5 and 11 year old and girlfriend doesn't. About all 75 of our company employees doesn't.

Windows Update in my experience has usually been a bad choice of Microsoft's to provide malware removal tools during the XP era. It's much improved in Vista and 7 with having its own interface rather than depending on a web site (windowsupdate.com)

 

[heatlesssun]

Where are people getting this shit? I have a dozen 7 and Vista machines deployed for friends and family. I've set them up with MSE, automatic updates, good firewalls, non-admin accounts that I have told them to use unless they are trying to install something and if they pirate software they are on their own. I've told them to steer clear of spam emails and attachments they weren't expecting and they all are on IE 8 or 9. I've not heard of ONE problem on those machines caused by malware. the oldest one being 3 years old now.

In my over 30 years of computer experience I am COMPLETELY convinced that 99% plus of this crap is COMPLETELY preventable even on Windows, especially Vista and 7 by doing things that are FAR less difficult than proper car, house or health maintenance, but fuck you have to at least try.

 

[TheWeazmeister]

Where are people getting this shit? I have a dozen 7 and Vista machines deployed for friends and family. I've set them up with MSE, automatic updates, good firewalls, non-admin accounts that I have told them to use unless they are trying to install something and if they pirate software they are on their own. I've told them to steer clear of spam emails and attachments they weren't expecting and they all are on IE 8 or 9. I've not heard of ONE problem on those machines caused by malware. the oldest one being 3 years old now.

In my over 30 years of computer experience I am COMPLETELY convinced that 99% plus of this crap is COMPLETELY preventable even on Windows, especially Vista and 7 by doing things that are FAR less difficult than proper car, house or health maintenance, but fuck you have to at least try.

+1 on this. OE sadly can't be removed in most cases.

 

[Climber]

I would argue that it matters quite a bit. Malware is so named not because it is docile and harmless but because it is malicious, and you take care to avoid being hit with it for just that reason.

It doesn't matter that much what Malware or Virii are around if the proper protocols are in place. Since if you are actively protecting yourself and not just randomly accepting every email attachment, facebook app invite, etc...etc...the chances of a mac or PC getting either are extremely slim.

So what matters is how the problem is resolved after it has happened. Mistakes, accidents, user error, etc...etc...happen so what is important is how a company takes care of their clients after the fact. Apparently your mindset of customer service is drastically different from...well most others.

 

[rat]

So you're suggesting that I am a troll that purposely asks loaded, misleading questions and misquotes people in attempt to steer conversation away from the facts so that I can manipulate the outcome of these threads to my liking? Is that correct?

Yep. You're finally getting it.

 

[phide]

It doesn't matter that much what Malware or Virii are around if the proper protocols are in place. Since if you are actively protecting yourself and not just randomly accepting every email attachment, facebook app invite, etc...etc...the chances of a mac or PC getting either are extremely slim.

And you're right. But what we're talking about here are a group of users who entered the admin password in an elevation prompt to install a piece of malware parading itself as an anti-malware/anti-virus. Googling "Mac Defender" would have clued these people in on the deal immediately. Do we really urge users like that to switch to Windows because Microsoft offers a malware help hotline? Even when it's arguably a significantly larger target to malware and virus authors?

So what matters is how the problem is resolved after it has happened.

Then why protect yourself when all that matters is that someone is eventually going to assist you in malware and virus removal? I'm not saying that doesn't matter, and I'm also not saying that Apple shouldn't do the same, because frankly they should, but why is that all that matters in the equation? The equation is significantly more complex than that.

Apparently your mindset of customer service is drastically different from...well most others.

I've stated my opinion on this already. There's no need to assume what my mindset is when I've already stated my opinion on it.

Yep. You're finally getting it.

The reason you decided not to answer the question is not because the question was "loaded" or "misleading".

 

[Trimlock]

Keep in mind I'm in IT and I run 5 PCs in the house and service friends and relatives' PC, particularly my brother's frequently infected PC (until he switched from XP to 7 anyways). In my experience, a vast majority of malware and virus prevent you from accessing popular sites with fixes and malware removal tips and tools, including windowsupdate.com. That's why I said that while yes, Microsoft has been vigilant about providing fixes for new malware and viruses, but there were many times I had troubles getting to it.

I know most of the tricks - IE proxy setting, network adapter DNS setting, HOSTS file, registry settings, and so on - and I've always been able to circumvent a virus's ability to get the fixes, even if it means downloading them to thumbdrive from another computer to fix the hosed one.

But mom and dad doesn't. My 5 and 11 year old and girlfriend doesn't. About all 75 of our company employees doesn't.

Windows Update in my experience has usually been a bad choice of Microsoft's to provide malware removal tools during the XP era. It's much improved in Vista and 7 with having its own interface rather than depending on a web site (windowsupdate.com)

ok thats what i thought at first, yes malware has been effective this way but defender is on the machine by default since XP SP2. It is also apart of the auto updates it eventually forces your system to apply. Its mainly a problem with windows letting you use the admin account as your primary user account.

Oh and Vista/7 has been crazy awesome at preventing these types of takeovers I might add.

 

[heatlesssun]

So you're suggesting that I am a troll that purposely asks loaded, misleading questions and misquotes people in attempt to steer conversation away from the facts so that I can manipulate the outcome of these threads to my liking? Is that correct?

Yep. You're finally getting it.

It is more than a suggestion. By your own words you just today deliberately misquoted me.

I do find it challenging to have rational and logical discussions with some Apple fans as they do often reject logic, reason, experience and common sense when it comes to Apple products.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037282969&postcount=15

Your misquote of this statement and remark:

I do find it challenging to have rational and logical discussions

So I've noticed.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037283242&postcount=25


My response:

My original statement was in it's entirety was a only single sentence and yet you chose to misquote me. You even left out the ellipses to at least indicate that you left out part of the statement.


Add the inability to properly quote to the list.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037283350&postcount=27

Your response:

?..yet you chose to misquote me.

That's correct.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037283384&postcount=29

 

[heatlesssun]

Correction on the above post, I misquoted myself! LOL!

So you're suggesting that I am a troll that purposely asks loaded, misleading questions and misquotes people in attempt to steer conversation away from the facts so that I can manipulate the outcome of these threads to my liking? Is that correct?

Yep. You're finally getting it.

It is more than a suggestion. By your own words you just today deliberately misquoted me.

I do find it challenging to have rational and logical discussions with some Apple fans as they do often reject logic, reason, experience and common sense when it comes to Apple products.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037282969&postcount=15

Your misquote of this statement and remark:

I do find it challenging to have rational and logical discussions

So I've noticed.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037283242&postcount=25


My response:

My original statement was in it's entirety was a only single sentence and yet you chose to misquote me. You even left out the ellipses to at least indicate that you left out part of the statement.


Add the inability to properly quote to the list.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037283350&postcount=27

Your response:

?..yet you chose to misquote me.

That's correct.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037283384&postcount=29

 

[phide]

Someone is very, very confused.

 

[heatlesssun]

Someone is very, very confused.

A typo is not confusion. Post #130 is correct and the quotes properly attributed. If you have nothing logical or rational to add it is best to leave the subject alone as you are only reinforcing the point made that you intentionally derail conversations.

 

[phide]

What I posted:

So you're suggesting that users facing problems with malware on a platform that has very little malware switch to a platform with substantially more malware? Is that correct?

The above post that techrat edited into this 'quote':

So you're suggesting that I am a troll that purposely asks loaded, misleading questions and misquotes people in attempt to steer conversation away from the facts so that I can manipulate the outcome of these threads to my liking? Is that correct?

Thar be the confusion.

 

[heatlesssun]

Thar be the confusion.

Fair enough, I stand corrected, you didn't challenge the misquote thus I assumed it was yours. That said, the point I was making still stands in that you do intentionally misquote by your own admission. If that is incorrect correct me.

 

[phide]

Only when it amuses me.

 

[rat]

Fair enough, I stand corrected, you didn't challenge the misquote thus I assumed it was yours. That said, the point I was making still stands in that you do intentionally misquote by your own admission. If that is incorrect correct me.

And you would be correct, heatless, when it comes to your interpretation with my intention behind calling Phide out as I did.

He repeatedly does this, intentionally misquoting and asking questions to make implications in Glenn Beck style rather than asking to get an answer.

It was why I chose to give him back what he gives out on here.

He is thoroughly disingenuous and the basis of his debates serve to find faults that are insignificant to the overall discussions rather than arguing the strengths of anything. It's all misdirection.

So when he so deliberately misquoted you rather than arguing with a point... there's really no reason to give him anything resembling a respectful or reasoned response in reply.

 

[phide]

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[heatlesssun]

Only when it amuses me.

Fair and obvious enough. I can find it amusing myself and does provide a logical reason why someone would say that it is challenging to have a rational conversation where you're involved when your intent isn't the same.

 

[heatlesssun]

He is thoroughly disingenuous and the basis of his debates serve to find faults that are insignificant to the overall discussions rather than arguing the strengths of anything. It's all misdirection.

In a nutshell you have described how look at Apple and some Apple fans. Malware, what malware? Look at Windows. Dropped calls, what dropped calls? Look at Android phones? It's magical, the magic of sleight of hand.

Apple does make a lot of great products, no doubt about it. But great products don’t explain it all. At work I hear a lot of users say that if they were using Macs they wouldn't see problems. Never mind the fact that the software wouldn't even run on OS X, or the fact that were still mostly using XP (our Windows 7 migration is in progress) and that OS X from ten years ago doesn't even work on x86 hardware or that the problem isn't even related to the OS, it tends to be sloppy internal apps that break, never mind any logical or rational explanation as to why a Mac wouldn't solve the problem, no it just will.

This complete and utter lack of ANY rational process to conclude that a Mac or other Apple product would just magically work WITHOUT ISSUE EVEN WHEN ITS IMPOSSIBLE defies reason and it's a HUGE competitive advantage for Apple and it explains why Apple will fight tooth and nail to admit issues with their products. The perception of being better than everyone else HAS to be maintained at virtually any cost. The last time Apple was perceived as human it almost failed. I don’t think Apple will even face that fate again but I don’t think Apple will go forever without facing any significant challenges either and it’ll be interesting to see how they would face a firestorm of attacks on OS X. At some level I don’t think Apple really wants OS X to big chunk of the market. They can still make the same about of money on a Mac running Windows anyway add I think iOS is the future of Apple anyway. OS X is far less significant to them than before the iPad. Mark my words you WILL see iOS laptops sooner rather than later, I think Windows 8 ARM will force that issue.

 

[phide]

This complete and utter lack of ANY rational process to conclude that a Mac or other Apple product would just magically work WITHOUT ISSUE EVEN WHEN ITS IMPOSSIBLE defies reason...

The explanation is simple: lack of personal experience and genuine familiarity combined with Apple's effective marketing. If a person only knows Windows, for instance, they're familiar with Windows problems, but not Mac OS's problems. The lack of familiarity allows for the seed that Apple marketing plants — that Mac ownership is carefree and delightful — to blossom. The uncommonness factor plays a part as well: people like to be different, and liking uncommon, non-mainstream things can lead to a greater sense of individuality.

It's ends up being a "the grass is always greener on the other side" situation. If OS X had Windows' market share (and if Microsoft had Apple's penchant for marketing), the tables would be entirely turned. Windows would become the mythical figure of perfection; the entrance to the land of milk, honey and trouble-free computing, and OS X would be that OS that everyone has that has X and Y annoyance or problem.

Is it rational? No. Is it sensible within the context of typical human psychology? Probably.

 

[rat]

In a nutshell you have described how look at Apple and some Apple fans. Malware, what malware? Look at Windows. Dropped calls, what dropped calls? Look at Android phones? It's magical, the magic of sleight of hand.

Apple does make a lot of great products, no doubt about it. But great products don’t explain it all. At work I hear a lot of users say that if they were using Macs they wouldn't see problems. Never mind the fact that the software wouldn't even run on OS X, or the fact that were still mostly using XP (our Windows 7 migration is in progress) and that OS X from ten years ago doesn't even work on x86 hardware or that the problem isn't even related to the OS, it tends to be sloppy internal apps that break, never mind any logical or rational explanation as to why a Mac wouldn't solve the problem, no it just will.

And soon it'll get worse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/may/21/apple-upgrades-itunes-version

Macbooks from 4 years ago can't even install the latest iTunes, which would be required by the way... to activate a new iPad or iPhone.

We first noticed something was amiss about a fortnight ago when my nine-year-old daughter, Flora, bought a new £39 iPod shuffle with her pocket money, and I treated myself to an iPhone 4. I connected the shuffle to our computer, but a message came up saying the iPod "cannot be used because it requires iTunes version 10.0 or later". So I downloaded iTunes 10, but then another message popped up: "Open Failed … This package type requires Mac OS X 10.5." It was the same story with the iPhone 4.

And I'm sure I'll soon get a response from the ever persistent Apple drones about how they're doing it wrong and there IS a way to work around this problem if they only did it a certain way.

Besides the point, even especially by their own words: It just works? It's supposed to be so dead simple and easy to figure out? Nobody should EVER have problems like these?

Apple is getting so greedy that they're doing forced obsolescence on hardware that actually *can* run new software.

But look at it from the other end: A dualcore laptop with an OS install of less than half the age of WinXPSP3 can't run the newest iTunes? But a WinXP system can run the latest iTunes? Hell, I was able to update iTunes in a virtual machine that was given specs of 2GB HD space and 192MB Ram via WinXP SP3 install.

Ouch. iTunes is that bad on Apple's own hardware and ecosystem, eh?

At this point, their desire for absolute lock in and control is so blatant, I'm more surprised that the fanboy drones aren't praising Apple for the kind of monopolic actions that Microsoft 'couldn't get right'...

 

[Chibo]

They need to buy the Snow Leopard upgrade for $29 and they can run iTunes 10. Same thing as requiring vista or win7 to run certain programs.

 

[Chibo]

Oh, wait, that post means I'm a mindless apple drone.

 

[heatlesssun]

Ouch. iTunes is that bad on Apple's own hardware and ecosystem, eh?

iTunes is a very good example of Apple being Microsoft, dominating the game with a so-so solution. iTunes really isn't that all that great, especially on Windows. Zune on the other hand is a work of art. Combined with a Zune Pass it's simply an amazing music service. Apple is about to announce iTunes streaming, something that's been in Zune for years. But yet Apple is ALWAYS considered first, even we they aren't.

But I blame Microsoft, it seems like they don't even give a fuck even when they good fantastic work like Zune.

 

[heatlesssun]

They need to buy the Snow Leopard upgrade for $29 and they can run iTunes 10. Same thing as requiring vista or win7 to run certain programs.

Oh, wait, that post means I'm a mindless apple drone.

No you don't sound like a drone, but if Microsoft requires you to spend one red dime to use something OMG, it's the end of the world. Hell, people bitched about IE 9 requiring Vista. If Apple drops support for something that's not even that old it's considered forward looking and no big deal. When Microsoft drops support for a 10 year old operating system its considered screwing customers. It's an obvious double standard.

 

[Chibo]

I wasn't arguing that at all but I do see your point.

 

[hordaktheman]

Macbooks from 4 years ago can't even install the latest iTunes, which would be required by the way... to activate a new iPad or iPhone.

That's not entirely true though. It's not the Macbook, but the operating system, that is unsupported. A 4 year old Macbook (which I assume is running an Intel CPU) can still run Snow Leopard while Leopard is available for PowerPC equipped Macs.

It's just the price of progress and the same thing will happen once Windows goes 64-bit only. Or when games go DX11 only. In fact, it has happened numerous times in Windows gaming as the games went to a newer revision of DirectX. DX:IW was a DX8 game released a year after the Geforce4 MX came to market, for example.

The thing is that OSX Tiger is an almost 6 year old OS. It's no different to Microsoft dropping support for Vista next year which they've already stated that IE10 won't be available for. Or not releasing DX10 for WinXP when it was 6 years old. They aren't doing this because they're evil (*ahem*) but because it becomes necessary at some point.

 

[heatlesssun]

The thing is that OSX Tiger is an almost 6 year old OS. It's no different to Microsoft dropping support for Vista next year which they've already stated that IE10 won't be available for. Or not releasing DX10 for WinXP when it was 6 years old. They aren't doing this because they're evil (*ahem*) but because it becomes necessary at some point.

I completely agree and it's just the nature of progress. Again, it's not the fact that you have to drop support at times to make progress, its the perception behind it. When Apple does it, it's considered innovative. When Microsoft does it, its a cash grab. Look at the bitching that took place over DX10. This sort of thing just simply isn't a problem for Apple. Hell, if they go to a retina display for the iPad next year I doubt iPad fans will say anything resembling complaining. They'll just go out and buy new iPads because Apple is just innovating like crazy.

Not saying that there's anything wrong with Apple doing that, again its all about the perception. Few Apple customers have many issues with obsolescence. Many of Microsoft's customers complain about it ad nauseam.

 

[rat]

When Apple does it, it's considered innovative. When Microsoft does it, its a cash grab. Look at the bitching that took place over DX10. This sort of thing just simply isn't a problem for Apple.

Ding, ding, ding.

"...I'm more surprised that the fanboy drones aren't praising Apple for the kind of monopolic actions that Microsoft 'couldn't get right'..."

 

[phide]

Apple is getting so greedy that they're doing forced obsolescence on hardware that actually *can* run new software.

How do you feel about Microsoft requiring Windows 7 for the upcoming Internet Explorer 10? Are you as infuriated by this as you are about Apple requiring 10.5 for iTunes 10? (Vista was released over a year after 10.4, by the way)

 

[heatlesssun]

How do you feel about Microsoft requiring Windows 7 for the upcoming Internet Explorer 10? Are you as infuriated by this as you are about Apple requiring 10.5 for iTunes 10? (Vista was released over a year after 10.4, by the way)

Normally you'd point out that no one cares about Vista. Honestly that's the truth. I lot more people cared about IE 9 not working in XP.

 

[Maverick1337]

No you don't sound like a drone, but if Microsoft requires you to spend one red dime to use something OMG, it's the end of the world. Hell, people bitched about IE 9 requiring Vista. If Apple drops support for something that's not even that old it's considered forward looking and no big deal. When Microsoft drops support for a 10 year old operating system its considered screwing customers. It's an obvious double standard.

Vista left a bad taste in everyone's mouth which made them stay on XP. Because of what Vista did, a lot of people don't want to upgrade to Windows 7. I'm talking the average Joe here not anyone on this forum. Windows XP is everything an average user needs, which is why people complain when they have to upgrade. Vista was terrible and people are still afraid Windows 7 might do the same. That and the fact they're upgrading to windows 7 from XP would change a lot in terns of UI and navigating around one's computer.

 

[Red Falcon]

Bingo.

And if people actually read the article, it says specifically that Dell, HP, Microsoft all offer over the phone support to remove spyware at a nominal fee.

+1

Apple can go fuck itself.

 

[heatlesssun]

Vista left a bad taste in everyone's mouth which made them stay on XP. Because of what Vista did, a lot of people don't want to upgrade to Windows 7. I'm talking the average Joe here not anyone on this forum.

Actually Windows 7's perception among average Joe's I tend to find quite favorable. I've lost count of the number of people that have asked me about upgrading to Windows 7. Very few asked me about upgrading to Vista.

Microsoft makes more than it's share of mistakes, Windows 7 wasn't one of them and I think pretty much did everything it needed to do to get Microsoft past Vista. Personally Windows 7 has been just amazing, the range of devices and hardware and things I have those devices doing with so few issues is joyful.

 

[Chibo]

I have to agree, Windows 7 seems to be great. Now if only they would add scrolling in unfocused windows like Linux and OSX.

 

[rat]

How do you feel about Microsoft requiring Windows 7 for the upcoming Internet Explorer 10? Are you as infuriated by this as you are about Apple requiring 10.5 for iTunes 10? (Vista was released over a year after 10.4, by the way)

Show me where Internet Explorer 10 (and thusly, the latest version of Windows) is required for using Microsoft branded hardware... and you might have a point. Until then, you are still a misdirecting troll.

 

[heatlesssun]

I have to agree, Windows 7 seems to be great. Now if only they would add scrolling in unfocused windows like Linux and OSX.

http://download.cnet.com/WizMouse/3000-18487_4-10907935.html

This is actually one reason why I like threads like this. When people mention that there's something that isn't in Windows a quick web search often finds a simple and free solution. I've actually been meaning to look into this for a while and totally forgot about it until you bought it up. Just installed it on my sig rig and it looks to work very well.

This is what makes Windows special, the support. It's really hard to argue that there's any OS that's got better support overall.

 

[phide]

Show me where Internet Explorer 10 (and thusly, the latest version of Windows) is required for using Microsoft branded hardware... and you might have a point.

Can you answer the question?

 

[Chibo]

http://download.cnet.com/WizMouse/3000-18487_4-10907935.html

This is actually one reason why I like threads like this. When people mention that there's something that isn't in Windows a quick web search often finds a simple and free solution. I've actually been meaning to look into this for a while and totally forgot about it until you bought it up. Just installed it on my sig rig and it looks to work very well.

This is what makes Windows special, the support. It's really hard to argue that there's any OS that's got better support overall.

Holy shit! Hero, this works great!

 

[rat]

Can you answer the question?

I'll answer any question you ask provided that it's not being asked as a framing device for an invalid comparison.

Even after then, you're still a blatant troll.