Apple Backtracks on EPEAT

[pelo]

Nonono, you're not understanding this.

Those criteria are "4.3.1.3 Easy disassembly of external enclosure," and "4.3.1.5 Identification and removal of components containing hazardous materials." Kyle noted that the glue makes the battery difficult to remove "safely," which is "exactly the kind of design that this standard seeks to discourage."

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/07/apple-gives-itself-passing-epeat-grade-for-retina-macbook-pro/

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Mid-2012-Teardown/9462/2

Someone really did not want the battery in the MacBook Pro to come out of the upper case.
We tried valiantly with our iFixit 6 Inch Metal Ruler to free the battery from its aluminum confines, but to no avail. Rather than risk puncturing a lithium-polymer battery cell, we left the power source in place.
To complicate matters further, the TrackPad cable lies underneath the battery. Attempting to pry the battery off the upper case could easily sever the fragile cable, which would be bad.

It's a case of fucking up the laptop and it was made this way.

Why am I not surprised an Apple fanatic defends his corporation who doesn't care about him other than how much money he's willing to fork over... which apparently is a lot, instead of actually reading up on the matter?

Color me shocked

 

[mope54]

Well...seeing as most other laptops just have an external battery, there's no reason for a "service" since you can just buy the battery and put it in the machine in like 5 seconds.

And using Geek Squad as a metric for reasonable pricing is a mistake in and of itself.

This is a very strange way of going about thinking about an issue.

I didn't say Geek Squad is reasonable. The question isn't even about reasonable. The question pelo raised was whether Apple is gouging it's customers for performing a particular service.

Therefore, the evidence for or against that is based on what other similar services are charging for their customers--not how cheaply can someone DIY a battery swap.


I can also change my phone's digitizer for $7.50 but it costs me $65 if I want a shop to handle it. I tried to do it on one of my first smart phones and broke it worse. Three weeks ago I just paid someone else to do it. I watched him and maybe I'll try it if I need to a third time. But since I have a $600 phone now I doubt it.


If I was changing a buddy's battery because he either couldn't or didn't want to, I'd charge for the battery (and I'd get an OEM one not some knock-off) and probably around $40 for the labor. So either someone can buy a battery themselves for about $85, pay me about $130 to put it in, or pay Apple/Samsung/Geek Squad/etc. about $200 to put it in.

 

[pelo]

If I was changing a buddy's battery because he either couldn't or didn't want to, I'd charge for the battery (and I'd get an OEM one not some knock-off) and probably around $40 for the labor. So either someone can buy a battery themselves for about $85, pay me about $130 to put it in, or pay Apple/Samsung/Geek Squad/etc. about $200 to put it in.

You're not given that option here. Go thru my links first.

It's a case of Apple forcing customers to go specifically to them and only them for a service that's unnecessary and can be handled by others (as you've just admitted) for cheaper simply because they want to make more money off of those services.

It's not like you need to glue the battery down either. There are Ultrabooks that are even thinner that don't use glue and simply use screws to secure the battery. Like I said, there just isn't an explanation for it other than stupidity and engineers overlooking a design flaw (which wouldn't surprise me) or a case of Apple being Apple with their hardware... again.

 

[MavericK]

Well, doesn't trying to replace the battery yourself on a MacBook void the warranty? Not so with other laptops with user-replaceable batteries. So it's not really a fair comparison in the first place.

 

[mope54]

You're not given that option here. Go thru my links first.

It's a case of Apple forcing customers to go specifically to them and only them for a service that's unnecessary and can be handled by others (as you've just admitted) for cheaper simply because they want to make more money off of those services.

It's not like you need to glue the battery down either. There are Ultrabooks that are even thinner that don't use glue and simply use screws to secure the battery. Like I said, there just isn't an explanation for it other than stupidity and engineers overlooking a design flaw (which wouldn't surprise me) or a case of Apple being Apple with their hardware... again.

pelo,

you're the only person here claiming that your'e scared to change a battery because of glue

I thought we were on [H] not mac-rumors

 

[pelo]

Well, doesn't trying to replace the battery yourself on a MacBook void the warranty? Not so with other laptops with user-replaceable batteries. So it's not really a fair comparison in the first place.

No, some laptops have a seal that if broken voids the warranty.

Only Apple, though, forces you to go to them to get a replacement battery and requires that it's done by Apple.

mope, read the links before you mouth off. There is no feasible way of replacing the battery without damaging the components of the laptop.

 

[MavericK]

No, some laptops have a seal that if broken voids the warranty.

Ah, I was thinking of the majority of laptops out there where you just slide the battery in and out externally. I guess some ultrabooks have internal batteries now? I haven't really kept up on those.

When I was working PC repair there was a rare laptop (something like Toshiba) that would have an internal battery, but it was just under a screwed-down cover like the hard drive, and no warranty sticker over it. All you did was pull the battery out and plug a new one in, had the same type of quick connectors as most other laptops.

 

[pelo]

Most of them are like that, even the newer Ultrabooks that have internal batteries. In 2-3 years most laptops will be like that as well, not just due to lower cost but it decreases the size of the machine itself.

They're also usually very easy to access. Some of the more difficult ones require you lift the PCB, but yea, most of them don't void the warranty if you open it up to replace them.

What I find shocking, though, is that if HP were to do this people would absolutely throw a fit on all the forums but since Apple does it, which has a long history of this type of behavior btw, nobody seems to care. It's stupid, regardless of who the manufacturer is. It serves no practical purpose outside of earning them more money at the expense of the consumer's wallet.

 

[wonderfield]

Well, doesn't trying to replace the battery yourself on a MacBook void the warranty? Not so with other laptops with user-replaceable batteries. So it's not really a fair comparison in the first place.

Perhaps not, but I'm still curious as to how much HP would charge to replace the battery in the aforementioned Envy. We'd then at least be comparing how much it costs consumers to have batteries replaced by the manufacturer.

 

[pelo]

Perhaps not, but I'm still curious as to how much HP would charge to replace the battery in the aforementioned Envy. We'd then at least be comparing how much it costs consumers to have batteries replaced by the manufacturer.

Yet you'd still have the option of doing it yourself with the Envy and you're stuck paying Apple $220 no matter what.

It's not just about the price (even though it'd be cheaper simply because the battery itself is much cheaper), but about the way they're pulling a fast one on you and you don't seem to care.

 

[mope54]

Pelo is operating under the delusion that HP doesn't already do this so you're not likely to get any further information from him regarding the matter.

He also can't imagine how to change a battery that is glued in, which I think is strange since he keeps posting that canard that this is [H] after all. When me and Maverick were starting out here we'd have been cutting, drilling, welding, gluing, all sorts of strange modding going on. I haven't had time to keep up in those sub-forums but maybe it's not as prevalent as when this site was younger. Not that it matters except for the fact that pelo shouldn't be trying to beat that stick on those of us who actually *mod* our gadgets.

I guess now it's about voiding warranties, which once again, we're on [H] as he was so fervently claiming earlier in the thread so I'm not sure why voiding warranties should be a concern...not to mention Apple covers batteries during the warranty period so the only time this would be a concern is when the device is out of warranty :\

 

[InorganicMatter]

http://www.atbatt.com/product/23260...xtlink-laptop&utm_campaign=shopping2&shopping screwed the link. $60 bucks for an Envy 15t battery replacement.

That's a Chinese knock-off that's probably going to die within 6 months. If there's anything I learned from the old IBM ThinkPad days, it was to never skimp on the battery. OEM only, and straight from the OEM's site so you don't risk a counterfeit.

http://www.shopping.hp.com/en_US/ho...op-Batteries/VL841AA?HP-NS09-Notebook-Battery $170

(Looks like its on sale for $85 right now, but that's temporary so not really relevant.)

 

[mope54]

The funny thing is that when I feel like I need to replace a battery pack I actually learn how to replace the cells inside and here I'm being accused of all kinds of silliness.

 

[pelo]

The battery isn't the only issue either, from the rest of the ifixit findings:

Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside.
As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.
The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.
The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.
The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.

Proprietary screws is not a huge deal, but still somewhat of an issue.

Fused display assembly. If it ever cracks, you've got go to Apple or toss it.

RAM soldered... How many sticks of RAM go bad? How often does RAM go bad? In comparison to other parts of the PC, quite often. But since it's soldered into the PCB you've got to buy a new PCB or toss the laptop if memtest86+ starts getting errors.

Proprietary SSD. Why? Because they're Apple and they were sick of you buying alternatives for cheap.

All of this and you still get a measly standard 1-year warranty. If you want to replace any of you parts past that 1-year point you need to buy their warranty service.

 

[MavericK]

That's a Chinese knock-off that's probably going to die within 6 months. If there's anything I learned from the old IBM ThinkPad days, it was to never skimp on the battery. OEM only, and straight from the OEM's site so you don't risk a counterfeit.

http://www.shopping.hp.com/en_US/ho...op-Batteries/VL841AA?HP-NS09-Notebook-Battery $170

(Looks like its on sale for $85 right now, but that's temporary so not really relevant.)

We bought a ton of OEM batteries on eBay for a fraction of the cost at the PC shop I used to work at, never had a problem with cheap knock-offs.

Buying directly from the OEM is like the most expensive possible option you can take.

 

[mope54]

I've had defective RAM but I've never seen RAM "go bad"

 

[pelo]

We bought a ton of OEM batteries on eBay for a fraction of the cost at the PC shop I used to work at, never had a problem with cheap knock-offs.

Buying directly from the OEM is like the most expensive possible option you can take.

This. And if you want the official HP-tagged one there are official distributors for manufacturers that usually sell the same parts at half the price because they buy in volume for people replacing broken parts.

 

[MavericK]

For instance:

Bam, 75 bucks.

 

[pelo]

For instance:

Bam, 75 bucks.

You can likely find it for even cheaper thru the official HP distributors.

 

[mope54]

We bought a ton of OEM batteries on eBay for a fraction of the cost at the PC shop I used to work at, never had a problem with cheap knock-offs.

Buying directly from the OEM is like the most expensive possible option you can take.

yes, but that's what pelo is using in his argument so in order to conduct a rational comparison one has to see how much HP is charging vs. Apple is charging.

If HP is charging $170 for the battery alone then Apple's $200 pricetag for a larger battery installed is a relative bargain rather than the rip-off he's claiming it to be.


Personally, I'd crack open the pack and resolder the individual cells because the $60 dollar battery is junk and $170-200 is highway robbery for someone *like me* who can do that kind of DIY.

 

[Matalim]

Asus Zenbook Prime UX31AUX31A an Ultrabook with Soldered RAM and SSD. (i'm sure there are others).

Next complaint please!

 

[MavericK]

yes, but that's what pelo is using in his argument so in order to conduct a rational comparison one has to see how much HP is charging vs. Apple is charging.

If HP is charging $170 for the battery alone then Apple's $200 pricetag for a larger battery installed is a relative bargain rather than the rip-off he's claiming it to be.

You're still kind of missing the point, which is that with the Apple one you don't have a choice unless you want to risk destroying your computer. The only "legit" way (in order to maintain warranty) is to do it through Apple. With the HP you have several options, all of which are "legit" and do not result in warranty loss.

This is getting WAY off-topic, btw...

 

[wonderfield]

It's not just about the price (even though it'd be cheaper simply because the battery itself is much cheaper)

Obviously the battery itself is cheaper. This isn't under dispute. It's also a lower-capacity battery, which I already pointed out. Can you answer the question, however?

...but about the way they're pulling a fast one on you and you don't seem to care.

I stated as much. This is hardly revelatory, as much as you'd wish for it to be.

 

[pelo]

Asus Zenbook Prime UX31AUX31A an Ultrabook with Soldered RAM and SSD. (i'm sure there are others).

Next complaint please!

That's an ultrabook so the RAM is soldered onto the PCB to save space (btw it's thinner than the MacBook Pro retina). Even still, it shouldn't be soldered.

I said this before, it doesn't matter who the manufacturer is, they deserve the same sort of flack that Apple is getting for soldering on crucial parts onto the PCB. Apple has just taken that to another level by adding the battery and the display to the list.

 

[mope54]

You're still kind of missing the point, which is that with the Apple one you don't have a choice unless you want to risk destroying your computer. The only "legit" way (in order to maintain warranty) is to do it through Apple. With the HP you have several options, all of which are "legit" and do not result in warranty loss.

This is getting WAY off-topic, btw...

I'm not missing his point. He is making issues out of non-issues.

The only time you would replace the battery is when it's out of warranty because Apple covers battery under their standard warranty.

Then you guys keep quoting pricing on a smaller 7800mAh battery as some evidence for why Apple shouldn't charge $200 for the service. You're not going to risk "destroying" your computer replacing a glued in battery unless you're a numbnuts trying to do a job without the right tools. Namely the $2 dollar "proprietary" screwdriver that every after market seller includes in the package gratis and some sort of heat gun.

seriously?

 

[pelo]

Obviously the battery itself is cheaper. This isn't under dispute. It's also a lower-capacity battery, which I already pointed out. Can you answer the question, however?


I stated as much. This is hardly revelatory, as much as you'd wish for it to be.

If you're going to quote me then maybe you can do so in context. I'll do it:

Yet you'd still have the option of doing it yourself with the Envy and you're stuck paying Apple $220 no matter what.

It's not just about the price (even though it'd be cheaper simply because the battery itself is much cheaper), but about the way they're pulling a fast one on you and you don't seem to care.

You conveniently left this bit out:

Yet you'd still have the option of doing it yourself with the Envy and you're stuck paying Apple $220 no matter what.

You can throw the display, RAM, and SSD into that boat as well. You've got your answer, it's not my fault you don't like it.

 

[mope54]

why aren't you using the Zenbook Prime UX31AUX31A for comparison?

your points are diluted by your cherry picking

 

[pelo]

why aren't you using the Zenbook Prime UX31AUX31A for comparison?

your points are diluted by your cherry picking

MBPr isn't an Ultrabook and has different hardware and certain guidelines set for Ultrabooks. It's like comparing apples to oranges. The envy 15t, though, is a proper laptop with an internal battery, IPS display and a full 35W quad processor just like the MBPr.

 

[wonderfield]

You've got your answer, it's not my fault you don't like it.

There are days when I cherish my sanity. This is one of those days.

 

[pelo]

There are days when I cherish my sanity. This is one of those days.

Bear in mind your sanity consists of being okay with receiving less as a consumer while paying more for it. That's not sanity, that's called willful ignorance.

 

[nOrVow]

One nation... under the shining fruit.

 

[VRMan]

... and yet on this site, what I find annoying is the non-stop apple bashing articles. If anyone is blue in the face, it must be Steve. I haven't seen a case of lingering butt-hurt that bad... since ever.

Gosh buddy, apple bashing on a PC mod website?! Whoda thunkit?! Maybe you should mosey on back to engadget....