Apogee - first impressions

Discussion in 'Water Cooling' started by orkan, Nov 24, 2005.

  1. orkan

    orkan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Got my apogee from sidewinder... and decided to strip it down this turkey day to see what it's all about.

    This pic shows how they intend the water flow to head across the pins. Wonder how it would perform if you flipped it the other way... top->bottom instead of side->side as you see it now? More resistance maybe?
    [​IMG]

    Here you can see it next to a poly top for a WW block. Roughly 2/3 the size.
    [​IMG]

    Upon closer inspection... I found a sign of pure greed. Rushed manufacturing process. The pin array is riddled with metal shavings due to a rushed milling no doubt. I have circled a couple, but they are EVERYWHERE. They are not loose, but rather attached to the block/pins... normally caused when a saw blade, or machine control is pushing the mill bit too fast, and not allowing it to do its job.
    [​IMG]

    I took a tiny flathead screwdriver and scraped out every single track between the pins. Took some time... but I wouldn't want this crap stuck in my radiator:
    [​IMG]

    Its clean now, but that metal shavings crap really has me doubting my purchase. So if you purchased one of these, make sure to clean that sucker up before you stick it in your loop.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Kensaku

    Kensaku [H]Lite

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    It's really a shame that great ideas are thwarted by poor manufacturing. It's really counter-productive to the whole idea of greater performance when the manufacturing of a product can potentially damage the asset that it's supposed to protect.

    Anyway, let us know how it performs!
     
  3. Budwise

    Budwise [H]ard|Gawd

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    wow, that doesnt look too good. I will definately keep that in mind when i order my Apex Ultra kit. Thanks for the heads up!
     
  4. DFI Daishi

    DFI Daishi 2[H]4U

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    thanks for the pics and observations.

    i think that at this point most people agree that swiftech is pushing this block in all of their kits because it is so cheap to make, but leaving cuttings in there is a bit much.

    thanks again for the heads up, and i hope that even with these quality issues, the block works out well for you.

    just out of curiosity, are you thinking of going with a certain OTHER swiftech block, if you need another in the near furture?
     
  5. consumer9000

    consumer9000 Limp Gawd

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    Wow, that is dissappointing to see. Being a machinist I am all too familiar with the bane shavings can be. However, this shows that they don't even wash or anodize these parts...very dissappointing considering that they are intended for something as critcal as watercooling. Can you imagine what those shavings would do over time to your pump/radiator/tubing? Metal filings have a tendecy to corrode and are very abrasive. :eek:

    I'm suprised that the bases aren't forged, as Swiftech seems intent on cutting costs (count how many times the term "economies of scale" is used in their Apogee description). Clearly the move to make these parts overseas intstead of in the USA has taken a real toll on the quality. I was troubled to see that the Delrin top is made from an injection molding process, which yields an inferior part to a machined component.

    The way the make this base is most likely with an array of slither saws, that simply make two hard, fast passes to form this not so special diamond array. If I were the machinist making these I would have them bead blasted and clear anodized after machining them. :rolleyes:

    Oh well, what can you expect from a part designed to maximize profits. With a name as ugly as "Apogee" (seriously, could it be more obtuse?) it appears you get what they paid for. :mad:

    BTW - Don't ever order from Swiftech's eStore, as I've been waiting 3 weeks for my APEX Storm Kit!
     
  6. orkan

    orkan [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm going to buy a storm this week too. Since no one seems to want to put them against eachother... I'm going to buy them both and do it myself in my own loop.
     
  7. DFI Daishi

    DFI Daishi 2[H]4U

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    good to hear, please let us hear the results.

    to be fair, i suppose that they could go either way, and the experiences of a single home user don't really prove or disprove the quality/performance of the design, however i DO know the result that i would like to hear......
     
  8. R1ckCa1n

    R1ckCa1n [H]ardness Supreme

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    Wow... that block is nothing more than a MCW5000 block with delrin....... LAME
     
  9. orkan

    orkan [H]ard|Gawd

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    Slightly more to this block than that. Completely different pin and grid design.

    Approx Pin array dimensions -

    34mm x 34mm
    1mm channel between the pins.
     
  10. Hexus0

    Hexus0 Gawd

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    I have a question about the Apogee, on Jab-Tech it says
    Does that mean you can use 3/8" ID tubing with this?
     
  11. DFI Daishi

    DFI Daishi 2[H]4U

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    yes, you can.
     
  12. Hexus0

    Hexus0 Gawd

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    Ok sorry for another post, going offtopic, and a stupid question, I'm really just confusing myself with tubing sizes, but is the 3/8" ID the same tubing size that most AC users use (its like the "low-flow" system [I think]), the really skinny tubing, or is that tubing 6mm ID tubing?
     
  13. DFI Daishi

    DFI Daishi 2[H]4U

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    3/8" ID isn't exactly low flow or low diameter. it's intermediate.

    trusty scientific calculator with unit conversions says that 3/8" = 9.525 mm.
    half inch is 12.7 mm.
    A-C gear typically uses 6mm or 8mm ID tubing.

    a math or physics textbook usually has imperial to metric conversion factors as well. :p
     
  14. ikellensbro

    ikellensbro [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'd expect that moving the base 90* would add more resistance, becuase the default method has the water going through the pin gaps, hitting the thin points of the diamonds. Hitting the wider points of the diamond might yield more surface contact, but at a higher pressure loss of course.

    It does look a lot like the MCW5000 with a different top, but the barbs are obviously positioned differently. I'm suprised that it doesn't put the inlet directly over the core, maybe because of the number of people who got confused which barb in the Storm to use as the inlet, but this design obviously lets either barb be used as the inlet.

    It'll be good to hear some actual non-Swiftech performance numbers, especially compared with the block Swiftech is so eager to push aside, the Storm. If this does indeed perform better than the Storm, maybe there is something beyond the G7...

    (OT) Good to see you posting here again consumer, I've been watching the gpu block thread over @ OCForums about your gpu blocks, while it's good to be posting, keep working on finishing up those blocks, we could use some more gpu blocks :)
     
  15. sbud

    sbud n00b

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    After this seeing this thread... I cracked open an Apogee I had picked up locally as a favor for a friend and looking closely.............sure as s**t there are metal shavings on some parts of the base, more towards the outer pins. After holding this block in my hands, I'm glad it's not mine and I would definately not swap out my storm for this. The molded top appears a bit cheesy, I can pull on a barb and it would flex.... and the sides aren't even flat, it's a bit concave. No wonder they're charging what they are for this block. I have a few Storms from both Cathar and Swiftech and they're built like tanks compared to... well at least the Apogee I have in possession.
     
  16. Double Jesus

    Double Jesus [H]ard|Gawd

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    that whole shavings business is bad news... when i buy something i want to take it out of the package and have it working in my system a few mins later, not have to pull it apart and pull shavings out! Definately a negative for swiftech... i've been pimping their stuff a lot lately too, might have to change my opinion (although i still <3 storm blocks, and i still wouldn't go AC ;) )
     
  17. infiniti029

    infiniti029 Guest

    hmm, i think a may go with a MCW6000, or 6002 now.
     
  18. Budwise

    Budwise [H]ard|Gawd

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    the Apogee is still better, just take the time to pull it apart before you install it.
     
  19. Leeum

    Leeum Limp Gawd

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    I have to admit I've been curious to see how the Apogee performs against the Storm, perhaps ProCooling will review it :)
     
  20. plywood99

    plywood99 [H]ard|Gawd

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    RoboTech is doing a review of the Apogee right now...
     
  21. Erasmus354

    Erasmus354 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    yea and he better hurry up!
     
  22. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    Too bad as your missing out. So why not go for some Alphacool stuff?
     
  23. Bio-Hazard

    Bio-Hazard 2[H]4U

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    Alphcool is great stuff, but it's still designed for smaller tubing................ :eek: You'd be hard pressed to put NORMAL sized tubing on their top block (NexXxoS).
     
  24. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    Normal sized tubing is 3/8" and it fits just fine. :p
     
  25. Bio-Hazard

    Bio-Hazard 2[H]4U

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    Normal to you maybe, but I guess some people like small tubes...................... :eek:
     
  26. orkan

    orkan [H]ard|Gawd

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  27. Jag

    Jag n00b

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    What? Bio have you ever seen a NexXos block? They have G1/4 threads much like the Storm and you can put any kind of fittings to suit your needs (be it 3/8 or 1/2).
     
  28. orkan

    orkan [H]ard|Gawd

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    He was just saying that "normal" is different for everyone. For instance, I run a 1/2"ID system... so normal is not 3/8".
     
  29. revenant

    revenant [H]ardForum Junkie

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    well, I call 1/4" small, and 3/8s med, and 1/2 large, which loosely equates to normal for me because I consider "middle of the road" to be normal... but in general, it's probably best to refrain from using generalized terms such as normal to describe specific measurements. :)

    ok - OT - I am highly considering getting this block.. my TDX is just not quite there for performance. and when I go dual core I will have even more heat to deal with... I will open it up and do the screw driver trick to clean it out... whew... that's BAD imo.. but this looks like a nice block, regardless.
     
  30. Imitation

    Imitation 2[H]4U

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    I opened mine up last night and it didn't have all the shaving and stuff in it, maybe some of you guys just had a bad batch.
     
  31. R1ckCa1n

    R1ckCa1n [H]ardness Supreme

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    Is it me or does that block look like a cheap peice of hardware? I beleive they are trying to live off the Storm "look" and sell a 5.00 block for 50.00
     
  32. Black-Falcon

    Black-Falcon Limp Gawd

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    I agree. My storm looks 100x better. The new block is pretty much a carbon copy of the MCW-55 but with a different Acental top (I think I spelled that correctly)
     
  33. thelostrican

    thelostrican Gawd

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    i dunno but the craftmanship is lacking.....
     
  34. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    I was going to mention that but I figured people would think I was slamming Swiftech again. ;) Seems to me that Swiftech bought the G4 rights for the specific purpose of releasing it and then changing over to their cheap block look a like. Classic bait and switch tactics. :D
     
  35. Top Nurse

    Top Nurse [H]ardness Supreme

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    Seems like this story is repeating itself as the same problem occurred when AC brought out their new Cuplex XT. The manufacturing technique used is almost identical as they use ganged jewlers saws so that the block pins can be made in two passes instead of using an end mill with multiple passes. Unfortunately the jewlers saws tend to kick up a burr if you run them at fast feed rates.

    However, this just points up that Swiftech along with anyone else can and does put out bad products from time to time due to improper quality control issues. The difference here is that when we queried AC about it they admitted there was a problem and immediately stepped up their QC of their products such that we don't see that problem anymore. In contrast Swiftech when queried recently about dented radiators that obviously came from them in that manner went through a big deal in denying that they had such a problem.

    I think reports like this here in the [H]ardForum tend to keep manufacturers more honest. So if you see something you don't like then take a pic and post it here. :)
     
  36. HybridHB

    HybridHB [H]ard|Gawd

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    Im about to do a write up about my experience with Swiftech. You probably remember how i received a dented radiator and they gave me an RMA, well things have gone down hill since then. Ill explain in the write up but i will say they are the worst company i've ever dealt with. I wont buy another swiftech product again.
     
  37. DFI Daishi

    DFI Daishi 2[H]4U

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    since some people who have been pimping swiftech recently are saying the same thing about that block, i guess that i can forgive you this time... :D
     
  38. Erasmus354

    Erasmus354 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    pimping companies is worthless....pimping products is what people should be doing.
     
  39. R1ckCa1n

    R1ckCa1n [H]ardness Supreme

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    I forgot to mention that I did not gain any extra overclocking by switching from a AquaComputer Cuplex XT to a Storm?
     
  40. DFI Daishi

    DFI Daishi 2[H]4U

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    sorry, i think i mispoke.....

    i have been pimping the swiftech storm waterblock, and the swiftech apex kit.......indiviual products, not the company as a whole.