Anyone else disgusted with feminine male characters in Japanese RPGs?

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In highschool I took a graphics class for both of my senoir years and this issue comes up alot:

if your demographic is your average teenager for... I donno a video game, and you want a cool (read: attractive) main character, you really can have difficulty trying to concept up something thats going to appease everyone. One half wants long blue hair the other wants mohawks (proven by science fool!)

Anyways, disgusted, no, but it is sort've a wierd cultural difference.

(Soap McTavish could still kick raiden's ass :p)
 
Stardusted said:
Isn't it strange in a world expanded, where communication is so easy, and I from Greece or others from Canada, France, USA etc etc can post in a forum like [H], that people feel the need to blend in so much ? To follow trends ?

Being generic and repetitive is what should be putting you off, not the feminine part of it. (I state this in a my oppinion way, of course you can be put off by whatever you like, including this post :p).
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To each his own. I'm just saying that some of the characters in those games are half man / half woman which is not very appealing.
 
catsby said:
I don't see how crossing men and women into one is all that normal, by anyone's standards...

and no, i don't mean hermaphrodites.
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It's their culture to tend to see "people" and not males/females, you'd understand if you were brought up in their culture, every culture is different and every culture thinks theirs is "normal" and others are "wrong".
 
interesting that no one has pointed this out yet:


the first castlevania pic there is most certainly North America/Europe specific boxart. back in a time when graphics rarely conveyed the original intended art style, boxart was changed to cater to each market.

Boxart is still different among territories, but rarely now does the art style deviate from that seen in game, because graphics are good enough now to follow artist intent.


Japan is a very difficult and rigid market. Not just from the outside looking in, and not just for videogames.

Regarding videogames though, even Japanese companies are currently having a hard time marketing to their own. I think this is sign of social change and it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

Traditionally though, Japanese gamers want many very specific things, some of it gaming specific and much of it borrowing from Anime. Because Anime is so powerful, in the past you could dress up a game with Anime prerequisites and probably make a decent buck. Heh, the U.S. even had a similar phase, though shorter. Now though that isn't really working. The "classics" are still selling, you know, the games that always sell well becuase they've found some magical chord in the universe that resonates forever. but a lot of the new stuff is hit and miss----much of it missing. I think Japanese gamers are seeing a shift in what they want, but the developers are having a hard time figuring out what that is. Its happening in the U.S., too. albeit a bit differently. American developers have figured out a couple of things that we like, so they are currently producing the shit out of it hoping it lasts. There are some bright lights in the fog, though, and more than ever those lights are being noticed. again, signs of change, gaming markets in general are wanting something different than what's been flooding the market recently.

now, focusing specifically on one thing here, the portrayal of men. Its not disgusting, its culture. Yeah, ok, you don't like it, but it isn't you.


Looking for a reason though, I think there are two things to blame, Anime and Japanese women. Japanese Anime (and Manga, you can assume I'm talking about that as well) over its history has seen many many artists and many many styles and or/variations on the generally accepted anime stadards. but, Anime art traditionally is not extremely detailed and full of lines. This lends itself to younger looking faces. Youth is a big thing in any culture, and Japanese people tend to look young longer than other races so its a natural fit for their culture to display someone in their prime as what we might see as rather young looking. So, when making the star, he's bright looking, young, few lines. It progressed so much that you might actually have a very detailed body, but the face is still with few lines.

A lot of anime artists and writers are Japanese women and they are probably responsible for the dominant feminine look in anime. Not just because they are women, but because that is what Japanese women like. Do understand though, in Japan these men characters are viewed as manly and attractive. Not girly and icky. (When I say this all, I'm talking pop-culture here). Since Japanese gaming formed a sort of symbiote with anime some time ago, we've seen this style more and more in games. It also broadened the marketability of games as they aren't just being sold to the end player. A lot of Anime fans will play games because of the Anime injection, some dude's girlfriend might be more willing to buy him a game if she's attracted to the cover art and/or the in game characters. Men in any culture tend to display themselves in whatever way pleases the women, because the goal is to attract them. Culturally speaking. Japanese women like their men to be beautiful, gorgeous, and strong/large too.and so it all follows.


Looking at that picture of Simon Belmont. No, I would never mistake him for a girl. He really doesn't look like a women at all. The small size of that pic isn't helping though. look at this:

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Scans/CVX68K/simon.jpg

Yes he has long beautiful hair. Yeah, some guys have long hair. Large thick eyebrows, large ears, big eyes, long perfect nose. All manly features. His lips are feminine and his jaw is fairly delicate, but seriously now. Look at a lot of "attractive" male stars in america and see if you notice similar feminine features sprinkled in their faces. I myself, don't have a large squared jaw, and my lips look about like that. I do have thick eyebrows, large eyes and a big strong nose.

Also, look at his body, it is impossibly huge. that is a man's body. Yes, his clothing style is ridiculous but uh, look at plenty of the american made comic and videogame characters for equally ridiculous imagery. Japan is a different culture so you'll see different trends like healed boots, long coats, etc. but our stuff isn't any more or less "disgusting".

Ayami Kojima is the artist of that Simon pick, BTW. Look at more of her Castlevania artwork:

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5430/castlevania2ug3.jpg

it doesn't look like a women, just a certain type of man. Ever seen interview with a vampire? How about Fabio? Fabio has beautiful silky hair-----and an impressive manly body.


There are plenty of worse examples. Final Fantasy has been mentioned and it is guilty of marrying with Anime tropes to boost fanbase and sales. Not everyone wants it to be like that (I.E. Vahn from FFXII never existed until the original producer/director Yasumi Matsuno left the project and others stepped in and twisted his original vision into what we got as the final product). I suppose we could talk about this all day, but really when you boil it down, its a culture thing. Like it or not. But for some perspective, do understand that we have plenty of "ridiculous" or "disgusting" stuff.
 
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PrincessFrosty said:
It's their culture to tend to see "people" and not males/females, you'd understand if you were brought up in their culture, every culture is different and every culture thinks theirs is "normal" and others are "wrong".
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I agree every culture is different and so forth but when it comes to Japan, they do not see males and females as just one and the same or just "people." Japan is a traditional country and is highly patriarchal and there are some massive differences between men and women over there. I'm going off topic anyway so I'll just stop.
 
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It's pretty simple. Girls like to look at guys like that, just like guys like their eye candy. I know many a female (across huge age ranges) that like their "bishies." (which is short for bishonen). So, since girls like them and girls do buy games, they put in characters that appeal to girls. Just like the females in japanese games tend to be sexy as hell. Exactly the same tactic.

Not seeing what the big mystery is here.
 
How could anyone POSSIBLY see males in japanese games as feminine ?!?!?!??!??


Does THIS guy look feminine?

9kuja-s.jpg



I rest my case. Kuja was all man!
 
Remember folks, about that gamespot heros contest. Gorgan Freeman beat the girly boy Link. If Link evolved into a manly man instead of a girly boy when game graphics improved, we would have seen Link beat Gorgan Freeman.

For those of you defending feminine boys.... have at it and enjoy it!!!! I wont' stop you! Indulge in the pleasures of emasculated men to your hearts content! If their neutered... even better! Have fun folks!
As for me....
if I want something more feminine, I'll play the female heroines. Vixens whooping the baddies! I vote with my money.... I have never bought an anime game.
 
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TheCommander said:
I agree every culture is different and so forth but when it comes to Japan, they do not see males and females as just one and the same or just "people." Japan is a traditional country and is highly patriarchal and there are some massive differences between men and women over there. I'm going off topic anyway so I'll just stop.
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Traditionally yes, but the younger generations of many cultures are starting to drastically influence what is "normal", the youngsters are the trend setters.
 
Mikerocks2112 said:
One of the reasons why I couldn't get into Aion. Its not only the femanine characters, but the whole art genre all together.
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ha, yeah just look at how the scout male stands in the toon selection screen.

But it does kill me how girly the men are in jrpgs. Now i love what they put into jrpgs, hence why i still play them and Im fine with the way the males are drawn but...and for my example...Star Ocean....your guy is constantly crying. He does one thing and I have to hear him whimper/cry/pout for the next, IDk, 20hrs of gameplay. He cant man up about the action, when something big blows up, that made playing the game so hard. i was actually getting po'ed at him for being such a girl about it. "Man up soldier"
 
SubyJay said:
But it does kill me how girly the men are in jrpgs. Now i love what they put into jrpgs, hence why i still play them and Im fine with the way the males are drawn but...and for my example...Star Ocean....your guy is constantly crying. He does one thing and I have to hear him whimper/cry/pout for the next, IDk, 20hrs of gameplay. He cant man up about the action, when something big blows up, that made playing the game so hard. i was actually getting po'ed at him for being such a girl about it. "Man up soldier"
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Oh man that sucks XD.

On a side note, thank God Square made the main character of FF6 a female (Terra). From what I heard, the main character was originally intended to be a male, but they actually thought that he would be too girly, so they decided on a girl. I can't imagine how drastically it would have altered my perception of my favorite JRPG if the main character was a scared and confused dude who wanted to experience love, and discovered love from protecting orphaned children during catastrophic times. :eek:
 
Parmenides said:
Remember folks, about that gamespot heros contest. Morgan Freeman beat the girly boy Link. If Link evolved into a manly man instead of a girly boy when game graphics improved, we would have seen Link beat Morgan Freeman.
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Morgan Freeman

morganfreeman.jpg



Gordon Freeman

gordon.jpg
 
Eh, I used to watch anime so that stuff didn't really bother me. It's part of the territory when you play a game produced/developed by a Japanese company.
 
Parja said:
And it was a bit of a child molester 'stache, too.
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Don't bash the original Brawny guy. I used to deliver auto parts to that guy and he'd kick your ass. :)

Seriously, the original Brawny guy (the guy Brawny used as a model was a real guy was a man's man) works on cars, drinks beer.

And Tybert7.....yes. He/she/it does look like a chick.
 
Moose777 said:
Don't bash the original Brawny guy. I used to deliver auto parts to that guy and he'd kick your ass. :)

Seriously, the original Brawny guy (the guy Brawny used as a model was a real guy was a man's man) works on cars, drinks beer.
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Sure, and after work, he'd drive around in his "Free Candy" van. But hey, I'm not gonna judge.
 
yes, this is why I stopped playing rpgs since I was like 14 and hate anime. I know many are obsessed with that stuff and wish they were Japanese (ROFL) but I cant stand the fruitiness.
 
Well you have to take a look at what they are exposed too.

Rock band Versailles......yes the one all the way to the right is a dude, and a great guitarist.
versailles_623.jpg
 
stevedave said:
Well you have to take a look at what they are exposed too.

Rock band Versailles......yes the one all the way to the right is a dude, and a great guitarist.
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Wow...its funny because the US went through something similar culturally in the 80s with all the hair bands. Music trends especially lag behind a bit in terms of getting overseas, though I think 20-25 years is a bit longer than usual.

On this topic though, yeah I think its creepy, and honestly distracts me from what otherwise would be enjoyable games. Even worse though are the females, which often are preteen or early teenage and meant to be attractive, which is just disgusting. Its exaggerated in jrpgs since they tend to focus more on the story and characters than the more open ended western rpgs do. Playing through a jrpg for the gameplay and ignoring the story is almost always just a waste of time.
 
tybert7 said:
How could anyone POSSIBLY see males in japanese games as feminine ?!?!?!??!??


Does THIS guy look feminine?

9kuja-s.jpg




I rest my case. Kuja was all man!
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Looks pretty Girly to me, I second the child bearing hips comment. Almost looks like Micheal Jackson and we all know how that turned out.


morganfreeman.jpg


Pimp!.
 
Kinda funny that Morgan Freeman and Gordon Freeman have the same beard.

As far as the OP, the only thing that really bothers me is the pointy chins they give guys.
 
Yeah, that's child bearing hips. I don't how anyone could find that appealing except those who are attracted to people undergoing hormone replacement therapy.

But hey, whatever floats your boats.... if you like hermaphrodites, then well, er you like that stuff.

But for for the love of mankind... boys under 18.... mercy. There are TOO many weirdo's in this world who like boys under 18 and it's scary!
 
TheCommander said:
Those type of men like in that second picture are not showcasing Japanese culture or anything remotely close to what males generally wear over there.
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Can you access this PDF?

http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdf?vid=2&hid=6&sid=17d51717-cf49-4dd5-bc9c-2342f45746e2@sessionmgr11

or here

http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=aph&AN=16494605&site=ehost-live

Bibliography information:
The Title is, "Non-Western Sexuality Comes to the U.S.: A Crash Course in Manga and Anime for Sexologists"

Published in an academic journal: Contemporary Sexuality

March 2005, vol. 39 no. 3


While it specifically deals with anime and manga, I sure hope to think you aren't going to try to convince me that these videogames styles are not directly influenced from them (because they are). If you can't access the PDF, here's the abstract and some notable snippets from the article.

Abstract:
This article informs that Japanese comics called "Manga" seem similar to American comics but are rooted in Japanese art and history. Aesthetic, sexual, and gender-ideological premises differ markedly from what Americans may think is natural or universal--or even Japanese. Indeed, manga comprise about 35-40 percent of Japan's total print output and are drawn and widely read by men and women of all ages. "Oh My Goddess!" turned out to be a warmly funny love comedy about three beautiful, powerful goddesses and a young man who loves one of them, whereas "Ogenki Clinic," is an explicit and wildly funny send-up of sex therapy. Criticisms of manga seemed misplaced, leaving a serious gap in our professional knowledge of this medium. An especially famous success in the United States has been Sailor Moon, a worldwide cultural icon for young women grounded in a manga and anime series from artist Naoko Takeuchi. When Takeuchi created Sailor Moon in 1992, she did not expect it to become so popular, but the series won millions of fans for its portrayal of a young superheroine team.
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excerpts:
Likewise, much gender-bending occurs in manga and
anime....These gender variations are deeply embedded in Japanese
traditions (Robertson, 1998).
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Manga are thus connected to Japanese aesthetic traditions that accept sexuality as normal
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Second, manga and anime provide ways to connect with young people and initiate conversations about sexuality.
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What's the bottom line? First, anime and manga represent living evidence of what nonwestem. erotophilic, and female-positive sexuality can look like. We sexologists can learn from manga and anime to broaden our awareness and challenge our assumptions
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So yes, these styles are part of japanese culture, and we should try not to be so ignorant and ethnocentric about these things.
 
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oh, trust me, I know about Japanese culture. I actually like it on a whole.

But how they constantly need to blend males and females together is just not my thing, and it gets old after a while. Main characters all start to look, and even act the same.

Solid Snake is so great because he defies anime/jrpg convention. He doesn't whine or complain. He doesn't have David Bowie's hair style. He even has a mustache in MGS4.

I'd like to see more characters like that come out of Japan.
 
catsby said:
oh, trust me, I know about Japanese culture. I actually like it on a whole.

But how they constantly need to blend males and females together is just not my thing, and it gets old after a while. Main characters all start to look, and even act the same.

Solid Snake is so great because he defies anime/jrpg convention. He doesn't whine or complain. He doesn't have David Bowie's hair style. He even has a mustache in MGS4.

I'd like to see more characters like that come out of Japan.
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Looking and acting the same isn't unique to Japan, sadly. We've got an annoying space marine look thing going in the western world and pretty much every single one of these act the same.
 
catsby said:
oh, trust me, I know about Japanese culture. I actually like it on a whole.

But how they constantly need to blend males and females together is just not my thing, and it gets old after a while. Main characters all start to look, and even act the same.

Solid Snake is so great because he defies anime/jrpg convention. He doesn't whine or complain. He doesn't have David Bowie's hair style. He even has a mustache in MGS4.

I'd like to see more characters like that come out of Japan.
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I bolded complaints that are mainly male centric views. As the article explains, Japan doesn't see "female" traits as being negative and weak, quite the contrary.

Besides that exact same criticism you bring up could be said about "manly man" main characters.

You're not going to see those characters unless you are telling the Japanese to stop making games like they make them (essentially, stop making games how Japan likes them and more like how I like them), and start making them like the Western worldview.

Anyways.
 
catsby said:
oh, trust me, I know about Japanese culture. I actually like it on a whole.

But how they constantly need to blend males and females together is just not my thing, and it gets old after a while. Main characters all start to look, and even act the same.

Solid Snake is so great because he defies anime/jrpg convention. He doesn't whine or complain. He doesn't have David Bowie's hair style. He even has a mustache in MGS4.

I'd like to see more characters like that come out of Japan.
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It's not all ultra fem, dbz was sort of normal.

brolly.jpg
 
tybert7 said:
It's not all ultra fem, dbz was sort of normal.

brolly.jpg
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Yes I know, and I like(d) DBZ. The hair was out of control but they were 10000x better than Sephiroth or any other stupid ass Final Fantasy "14 year old feminine boy" characters.

As much as I like Japanese games, I'll say that the one thing they usually fail at is character design.

A matter of taste? Of course. That doesn't mean I won't say that I think it's stupid, though.

The Japanese have a lot of ass-backwards views, so I'm not inclined to completely agree with everything they do or like.
 
Last example, while I agree some of the japanese examples like Kuja

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3dw74XNavI#t=23s



Are just like WTF over the top feminine (the guy did a hair flip and a strut as he walked away, I mean damn.)


There are many times I wish western designed games like wow gave more options for males other than steroids laced bodybuilders... on a CASTER.

Take a look at my mage.


guildcs5.jpg



That is too buff for a mage, the females get more polys in games like wow, they get to look more natural as a mage, the male humans, look like bodybuilders. They fixed it with blood elves, the only male race other than gnomes that look like they are caster material.


For that reason, I actually LIKED the character creation options in Aion, you could look like almost anything you wanted, and I made myself look like a slim anime esque sorceror. He is not supposed to be laced with muscles. As for looking too "pretty" I do not like making ugly characters, so that is just a personal thing.


divine2n.jpg
 
WoW has stupid bodies in general, anyway, and Blizzard is too lazy to make different bodies for different classes, so they just went with the "warrior/paladin/dk" type body for everyone.

I agree that every guy doesn't have to look like he's on steroids. That too gets old after a while.

But the Japanese will take a feminine face/hair and put that on an Arnold body. And it looks ridiculous.
 
i suppose this must be why i didn't like JRPG, played it at my friends for a while, and never really thought of buying it... this and the fact that JRPG don't like to be controlled with mouse! (they really love gamepad and I like Dragon Age Origins on PC)
 
Cute ladies in the picture, Sent, but Im not fond of the one with the moustache :D
 
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