AMD Radeon HD 7970 Video Card Review @ [H]

[Zarathustra[H]]

Its a shame because if AMD priced the HD7970 $50 less ($499) would probably praised by most and put in a much more positive light. People would see the HD7970 is better than the GTX580 in every way and ~ the same price causing Nvidia to react.

As it stands now, its just spend more for a better card.

Also the price premium over the HD6970 is pretty brutal

Allow me to re-quote myself yet again.

The price is more than appropriate if you look at a inflation adjusted price history of top ejd cards.

The price is not an issue. It's pretty much where the prices have always been for top end boards.

Here is a comparison I did of top end Nvidia board launch prices over the last 10 or so years. (Sorry it took so much time that I didn't do ATI/AMD boards, but this will show the point as AMD top end boards would have been priced to compete with Nvidia)

Year	Board				Price at launch		Adjusted for Inflation, 2011 dollars
2000	Geforce 2 Ultra			$500 					$650 
2001	Geforce 3 TI 500		$350 					$450 
2003	Geforce 4 TI 4600		$400 					$490 
2003	Geforce 5950 Ultra		$500 					$615 
2004	Geforce 6800 Ultra Extreme	$540 					$650 
2006	Geforce 7900 GTX		$500 					$560 
2007	Geforce 8800 Ultra		$850 					$930 
2008	Geforce GTX 280			$650 					$685 
2009	Geforce GTX 285			$400 					$420 
2010	Geforce GTX480			$500 					$520 
2010	Geforce GTX580			$500 					$520

If we chart the inflation adjusted price history of top end video cards, it actually makes it look like we are in a period of lower prices for top end cards.

So I feel like a $549 price tag for the top single GPU board on the market isn't an outrageous price at all. it's kind of right where it's always been, give or take, and the 8800 Ultra makes it look like a bargain at $930 adjusted for inflation

 

[maboblivion]

That texas weather eh Kyle?

 

[alienate]

The 7970 is a nice upgrade and is the undisputed "king of the hill" card now, but it's really hard justifying a $550 card when 90% of games are console ports with virtually no visual improvement to be gained on settings. Unless you are an eyefinity user, there is no reason whatsoever to buy anything more than a 560 or 6950.

 

[heatlesssun]

Getting off topic guys.

To get back on topic, the 7970 is worth the price and there's no need for AMD to adjust the price at this time assuming the MSRP will be $550 US.

 

[WaltC]

Well, I think we can all agree on this, quantity makes you profits. Not expensive nitch high-end anythings. I've already forgotten about the 7970, it's dead to me. Gone. And, actually, if you read the signatures on the bottom of most of the posts on this thread, turning all the logic back inward, the 7970 doesn't benefit 80% of the people here from what I can see, so that counts them out as well, myself included. At this point, I think the biggest piece to this puzzle lies with the 7950. This could all end up making a lot of sense to myself and many others that share my pov or it could just end up proving my point. A point I do not wish to prove. /signed team AMD.

I like to stimulate discussion--to sometimes play devil's advocate--as much as the next guy, so I know what you mean...

But...can't agree that the opening MSRP for 7970 is a "mistake"... Heck, it isn't that AMD has never wanted to market a recent card at an MSRP of $549, it's just that based on performance and features, relative to the competition from nVidia, AMD hasn't been able to market a card at an opening MSRP of $549 recently. AMD is easily justified in doing it with the 7970, and I'm glad they are finally able to price back into that range again--they've got a product that will support it. It's going to fly off the shelves.

Also, while it may at the present moment be true that the AMD cpu side of the house cannot justify some of Intel's retail pricing levels because the performance of some of the AMD cpus isn't there--yet--the same isn't true of gpus, where AMD is the IGP game that Intel is going to have to beat to justify Intel's IGP cpu pricing... Intel's IGP gpu performance is a long way behind AMD's at the moment.

With IGP cpus, AMD's primary competitor is Intel; with discrete gpus, AMD's primary competitor is nVidia. Both nVidia and AMD are to a high degree bound by each other in terms of the real MSRPs the products they support will command. Neither company can, for instance, produce a product that is 10% faster than the competition's and MSRP that product @ 100% higher than the competition's--because nobody would buy it. OTOH, neither company is going to produce a product that is ~40% faster than the competition's while also providing features not even found on the competition--and then charge 40% less than what the competition is charging!

Heck, no! They'd go broke if they did... But that seems to be what you and few others are advocating AMD should do. Clearly, for you, the current MSRP of the 7970 makes the product unappealing, and no doubt the same thing is true of the GTX 580--that product has been dead all year as far as you are concerned, just because of its price. Just remember, though, you do not equal "the market." (Nor do I, nor does any other individual.) There is obviously a very healthy demand for ~$500 gpus in the current market because otherwise nVidia would not have been able to sell the GTX 580 at those prices for the last year--if people weren't going to pay that price the 580 would've have been substantially reduced in price months ago. Again, provided AMD can get them there, the 7970's should fly off the shelves.

 

[chithanh]

Indeed this chart shows pretty much no CF OR SLI scaling but Batman is an nVidia TWIMTBP title.

So the point is touting a number like near 100% CF is fairly meaningless. And this is also true of SLI, there's far to many variables from game to game.

In the hardware.fr review, the two games where 7970 CF did not deliver were Batman:AC and F1 2011. In the other games the scaling was excellent. So a driver problem seems likely.
If CF scaling in these two games is very important to you, then hold off with your purchase until AMD publishes fixed drivers. Or buy NVidia.

Personally I don't see a reason to go 7970 CF. A single card gives you the performance for gaming at 5760x1080 with eye candy turned on in all modern games. Maybe this will change during 2012, but when that happens you can buy the second card at a lower price with better availability and more models to choose from.

 

[That's_Corporate]

let's be honest, who the hell cares about multi-gpu scaling in a pure console title like batman? i wrapped that game up on my PS3, with all riddler trophies, in a weekend. a great game, but nothing that should be used to judge a video card purchase in the slightest.

 

[robble]

I wonder how well it'll play MINECRAFT.

 

[WaltC]

A lot of ATI fans were anti-SLI until ATI finally got crossfire working. I'm sure they will come around if AMD ever gets 3D right. Same with physics, CUDA, etc. I remember when Starcraft 2 launched and AMD did not support AA in it. Some people were actually saying AA was not a big deal.

Merry Christmas! Killing some time and some spiked eggnog, and just thought I'd add a little counterpoint...

I went to "3d" movies with the paper-thin, blue and red cellophane-cardboard glasses, way back in the 1960's as a kid in movie theaters! It's not really "3d", it's 2d parallax effects that depend on fooling the brain into seeing some depth where there isn't any, and two working eyes are required (some people have two working eyes but their brains aren't fooled and the illusion doesn't work on them; others, like my wife, can't see that well out of one of their eyes and the effect is lost on them, too.) It is very inconsistent as in you never know when the Z axis will be simulated and when it won't be. "3d" movies constantly shift back and forth between a simulated Z and the standard 2d Z. Personally, I could care less what AMD does with it as I won't be using it. It failed then as a movie fad, and I expect it to fail again as a current movie fad--and it will reemerge in another 30 years to fail all over again... I honestly think people who buy so-called "3d TVs" are maybe the biggest suckers in the marketplace these days. Whew!

OTOH, Polygonal 3d of the type we've been treated to ever since the 3dfx Voodoo1, is far more realistic and completely consistent, and is an illusion that doesn't require special glasses or two eyes to simulate depth along the Z axis.

Way back in 2002, with the surprise, dark horse R300 (9700 Pro) blowing away everything in existence by leaps and bounds, I remember nVidia fans by the boatload declaring that they hated FSAA and wouldn't use it if it was available. nVidia even stated officially at the time that FSAA was not a technology that interested the company because nVidia believed that "high resolution is much more important than FSAA". nVidia made lots of similar goof ups during that period--which as you will recall led up to the production and cancellation of nV30.

I think the funniest couple of public relations snafus for nVidia during that period were, first, "You can't program anything with powers of three"--which was a slam at ATi's fp24 (3x8=24) because nVidia could only do fp16 (2x8=16) in hardware at the time; unbelievably, nVidia's "Chief Scientist" published a white paper purporting to explain why multiples of 3 weren't used in "serious" gpu game programming! Then there was nVidia's repeated position that "It didn't agree with where ATi was taking the 3d gaming market," etc., after nVidia got caught cheating in the infamous 3dmark benchmark incident. Then came nV30 and then nV30 went, and it kind of wrapped up a sorry saga in nVidia's history. Actually, nVidia's done very well ever since in taking the "new direction" for 3d gaming that it claimed ATi forged with the R300...

I really don't give a flip about PhysX--sorry. My main beef with it is, well, just watch what happens to nVidia's gpu frame rates when you turn on intensive PhysX effects (basically more explosions and larger debris fields): they drop like a rock. CUDA is OK, but it's still a very niche scenario--same is true for GCN at AMD: 98% of the gpus both these companies sell for the foreseeable future will be used exclusively as gaming gpus.

Last, I've run AA on and off inside SCII. In that game, I still don't think it's a big deal... Now in most games, AA is a huge deal, certainly.

 

[heatlesssun]

In the hardware.fr review, the two games where 7970 CF did not deliver were Batman:AC and F1 2011. In the other games the scaling was excellent. So a driver problem seems likely.

It also doesn't seem to scale well in Skyrim:http://www.hardwareheaven.com/revie...7970-crossfire-performance-review-skyrim.html

I'm sure it is a driver problem, I was just pointing out that it doesn't make sense to say that ANY card be it from AMD or nVidia scales at 100% because multi-GPU often fails, at least when a game or GPU is launched.

 

[heatlesssun]

let's be honest, who the hell cares about multi-gpu scaling in a pure console title like batman? i wrapped that game up on my PS3, with all riddler trophies, in a weekend. a great game, but nothing that should be used to judge a video card purchase in the slightest.

LOL! Batman has as much support for PC hardware as there is, it's a BIG step up on the PC compared to consoles even in DX 9.

 

[That's_Corporate]

LOL! Batman has as much support for PC hardware as there is, it's a BIG step up on the PC compared to consoles even in DX 9.

LOL! it's a console game, not a PC game
even if it's a well supported on PC, doesn't change what it was made for

if you're basing a video card purchase on a short-length console port, say hello to a centaur for me because you clearly don't exist

now, basing your purchase on BF3, crysis warhead, metro 2033... now we're talking

 

[heatlesssun]

LOL! it's a console game, not a PC game
even if it's a well supported on PC, doesn't change what it was made for

if you're basing a video card purchase on a short-length console port, say hello to a centaur for me because you clearly don't exist

now, basing your purchase on BF3, crysis warhead, metro 2033... now we're talking

I don't base what I build around ANY game benchmarks. I build the most powerful thing I can afford, the rest takes care of itself when you do that at the level I normally do.

And for Batman AC to be this console game you're talking about just about EVERY 7970 review I've seen had Batman in the benchmarks including [H]'s. I guess those reviews don't exist either.

 

[Yobbles]

And considering it has ZERO scaling....dont that tell you there is something wrong? lol

Yea, so obviously the claim that it has better scaling is BS, right?

 

[hellokeith]

Others have alluded to it, but many ppl in here seem to not be knowledgeable regarding profit maximization.

Profit = Total Revenues - Total Costs

Total Costs = Fixed Costs + Variable Costs

Total Costs, as a component of Profit, often have a non-linear growth curve such that below or above certain quantities, the Total Costs grow faster than the Total Revenues.

Quantity is forecasted from expected yields, but is also setup based on Total Costs of production runs.

So for example, to produce 10x more video cards may in fact increase Total Costs more than 10x, and that $600 card just became a $700 card.

 

[Spooony]

Looks good. Now only if they can do the same with their drivers

 

[chithanh]

Wow, someone mentioned the computerbase.de review, and I just finished reading it. It really puts all these other reviews to shame.

Yes, they are always very thorough and I think their 7970 review is only surpassed by [H] and hardware.fr articles. Too bad that they got a card with bad cooler.

 

[larkin]

Too bad that they got a card with bad cooler.

I might have been the one that mentioned that review. But I don't think they got a worse cooler than anyone else. All the reviews I've seen so far show a load temp of around 80 or 81 C. That's the same temp they got BEFORE they replaced the thermal paste. After they replaced the paste they got 75C +/- 2C. I just wonder how freaking OC'able these things are with proper thermal paste application (which the retail cards hopefully have). I guess we'll know if stock temps are greater than 80C you should probably re-apply the paste.

 

[c3k]

Thanks for the review!

 

[demingo]

I don't understand how the driver problems AMD has are just ignored in this review. I think that not mentioning is quite deceptive especially when you see how close AMD and [H] have been getting. It's a shame that objectiveness is lost.

All it takes is a look at some of the biggest releases this year to see, that on launch day, most of them worked fine on Nvidia cards and AMD cards tended to have issues which had to be fixed. No matter who is at fault, one companies cards worked day 1, another's didn't. When spending over $400 for a video card, the expectation is that it works properly, not a few days or weeks later.

 

[Revdarian]

The "AMD driver woes" had mostly to do with crossfire, except with Rage and Rage's engine in general sucked.

Funny thing is that AMD now has even crossfire working on Rage, and N isn't bothering with it. (Sure, only 2 card crossfire, but again, that has to do with the sucktastic way they setup the whole Rage engine, where even the physics is tagged onto the framerate).

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't understand how the driver problems AMD has are just ignored in this review. I think that not mentioning is quite deceptive especially when you see how close AMD and [H] have been getting. It's a shame that objectiveness is lost.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion looking at the reviews of the latest games that [H] has done. They've mentioned more than once issues with AMD drivers. A couple times they even pointed out that even when AMD cards benchmarked better than nVidia cards game play was better on the nVidia cards.

All it takes is a look at some of the biggest releases this year to see, that on launch day, most of them worked fine on Nvidia cards and AMD cards tended to have issues which had to be fixed. No matter who is at fault, one companies cards worked day 1, another's didn't. When spending over $400 for a video card, the expectation is that it works properly, not a few days or weeks later.

I have to admit that I don't have as much confidence in AMD's drivers as I do nVidia's. I know AMD fans like to point out driver nVidia's driver blunders like the issues with the 590 (personally I think that card is a blunder more than anything) but I just feel that AMD drivers particularly have issues with new titles. AMD publishes a lot more driver patches than nVidia is seems to fix issues with new games. I know that there's tons of AMD folks who say they don't have many issues and I take them at there word, its not like I hear people complain about issues I never see as well.

The new Catalyst drivers do allow for custom profiles to add CF support without specific drivers, hopefully that helps.

 

[Yobbles]

Yet you assume those that will buy 7970s are "dumb zombie consumer" .

Grow up, some of us work hard to earn money to burn.

If you work hard just so you can burn money then it is you that needs to grow up and not me.

 

[Wierdo]

Not sure how you came to this conclusion looking at the reviews of the latest games that [H] has done. They've mentioned more than once issues with AMD drivers. A couple times they even pointed out that even when AMD cards benchmarked better than nVidia cards game play was better on the nVidia cards.



I have to admit that I don't have as much confidence in AMD's drivers as I do nVidia's. I know AMD fans like to point out driver nVidia's driver blunders like the issues with the 590 (personally I think that card is a blunder more than anything) but I just feel that AMD drivers particularly have issues with new titles. AMD publishes a lot more driver patches than nVidia is seems to fix issues with new games. I know that there's tons of AMD folks who say they don't have many issues and I take them at there word, its not like I hear people complain about issues I never see as well.

The new Catalyst drivers do allow for custom profiles to add CF support without specific drivers, hopefully that helps.

The way I see it, AMD's drivers are not bad, it's just the way they handle software dev support makes them lag up to a few weeks vs nVidia's updates sometimes, but when they come out they're usually just as good.

nVidia's has the edge here because they spend considerable funds on dealing with development houses in a more hands on fashion so that they get early access to the games and optimize them earlier than their competitor.

AMD's commented recently - see Anand's review - that they plan to direct more budget to doing the same thing to cater to this new market expectation, people don't have the patience to wait a few weeks for some of the new games to work optimally, they want it NOW. It's expensive but may be worth it considering the new generation of PC gamers with less patience for patches than past ones, even a couple weeks is no longer tolerated.

 

[Pyroja]

Currently running a 4890 and feeling the desire to upgrade again. Was aiming for a 6950 2GB, but I guess now that the 7000 series is trickling out, now is not the time to buy, yes?

 

[tc17]

AMD doesn't have any more problems than Nvidia does. I actually prefer ATI cards and have had no problems whatsoever with their drivers. I don't use crossfire though.

 

[jorojr]

Overall, AMD's drivers are better now, but they still have some ways to go. They still carry over the stigma of poor drivers from the ATI days. The stumble with this Fall's lineup of games doesn't do a whole lot to help their cause.

 

[chithanh]

But I don't think they got a worse cooler than anyone else. All the reviews I've seen so far show a load temp of around 80 or 81 C.

computerbase.de described the fan noise as too loud, while most other reviews (including [H]) were pleased with the 7970's acoustics. Maybe the fan got damaged or some other problem existed.

 

[heatlesssun]

AMD doesn't have any more problems than Nvidia does. I actually prefer ATI cards and have had no problems whatsoever with their drivers. I don't use crossfire though.

Multi-GPU is if often at heart driver issues for both AMD and nVidia.

...and they'll deny that nVidia drivers literally FRYING cards was a real 'issue'

Well the 590 was really the problem, not a card that I would buy, drivers, bad or nor should fry a card, the hardware should protect itself. Yes, there was an issue there, don't really remember the exact issue or how many real customer where affected.

 

[jorojr]

Prior to the 590, I believe the 196.76 drivers were causing fans not to spin up and causing cards to fry.

 

[hyperion0101]

Currently running a 4890 and feeling the desire to upgrade again. Was aiming for a 6950 2GB, but I guess now that the 7000 series is trickling out, now is not the time to buy, yes?

Wait and see what Nvidia has to offer as well, before making a decision.

 

[That's_Corporate]

Prior to the 590, I believe the 196.76 drivers were causing fans not to spin up and causing cards to fry.

yep

 

[2wiced]

Wait and see what Nvidia has to offer as well, before making a decision.

by the time nvidia releases their cards. AMD will be preparing a refresh. Or they will release a 7990. Youll be waiting forever

 

[heatlesssun]

Youll be waiting forever

The problem is that we really don't know when nVidia will be releasing it's new high end parts. I tend to doubt that it won't be until the end of 2012, summer at the latest is what I would suspect, maybe even the spring.

 

[Brackle]

The problem is that we really don't know when nVidia will be releasing it's new high end parts. I tend to doubt that it won't be until the end of 2012, summer at the latest is what I would suspect, maybe even the spring.

Yea im thinking may/june.

 

[chithanh]

If the leaked roadmaps are to be believed, the 550Ti (GK107/106) and 560Ti (GK104) successors will be released first, and the high-end parts only in late 2012.
It seems that there will be a dual-gpu GK104 that will beat the 7970 and maybe even the 7990 in the second half of that year.

 

[That's_Corporate]

crap... that won't be good news for 7970 prices

 

[Brackle]

If the leaked roadmaps are to be believed, the 550Ti (GK107/106) and 560Ti (GK104) successors will be released first, and the high-end parts only in late 2012.
It seems that there will be a dual-gpu GK104 that will beat the 7970 and maybe even the 7990 in the second half of that year.

Not sure abotu that,

The 7970 already beats a 5602win...

 

[Michaelius]

Depends on pricing if that 560 successor bring 580 performance at 250-300$ level it will make 7970 very unatractive price/performance wise.

 

[Trimlock]

Depends on pricing if that 560 successor bring 580 performance at 250-300$ level it will make 7970 very unatractive price/performance wise.

I'm reading a lot of assumptions in this thread based on "ifs" "whens" and "maybes"

Here at hard you never play the waiting game, if theres a product out you like, get it, if you don't like it the don't get it. Also basing your opinion on a maybe or a product with no release date had been proven be folly before, so chose what you want to do.