AMD, NVIDIA Have Launched "The Least-Appealing GPU Upgrades in History"

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,004
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Regardless of which team enthusiasts have aligned themselves with, it’s simply not a great time to cheerlead, according to ExtremeTech, which has published an opinion piece alleging both green and red have failed to deliver. While AMD and NVIDIA’s products may be technically admirable, the conundrum is price-to-performance: nobody expected the latter to impress on that front, but now that the former’s Radeon VII has matched “the RTX 2080’s bad price,” many have conceded to the idea of the market being “stuck in an unwelcome position.”

    There are two ways to read the current situation. One argues that the current less-than-inspiring crop of GPU architectures from AMD and Nvidia is an oddity. AMD has been operating on a shoestring budget until quite recently, with limited resources to pour into new GPUs. Nvidia may have misread the crypto market. Put the two together, and you have an awkward transition that doesn’t inspire anyone but ultimately doesn’t have much influence over the long-term evolution of the GPU market either. Fast forward 18 months and the market may look much more like its historical trend line.
     
    Dodge245, DrezKill, Mav451 and 2 others like this.
  2. ole-m

    ole-m Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    419
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Amen!
    Touring is a step in the right direction but they overfocused on compute part and that is very unusual for nvidia which usually are spot on with their archs and when it launches.
     
    mbelue likes this.
  3. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,597
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    I have hope that Navi is the slimmed down architecture its rumored to be.

    Nvidia is essentially charging gamers a premium for features that have no major advantage for games.... (No they are not ray tracing cores they are freaking tensor cores not designed in anyway for games for F sake already). I get the choice... it is crazy expensive designing a chip and then fabbing it and all that that implies. Making 2 chips is a no go... so Nvidia has tried hard to make a case for selling server class hardware to gamers at a stupid premium.

    AMD is pushing a new fab process.... and their architecture isn't really a whole lot slimmer. They as well are aiming for servers... and without a doubt gunning hard for the game streaming service hardware contracts right now.

    I hope that Navi as rumored will be a slimmed down core designed to go into chiplets and use Inf Fabric to allow for multiple "cores" on one package. If true perhaps that is the solution. Low end Navi... one core. Mid range 2 cores.... and high end perhaps 4. For end users the specs would look the same as always... 1000 compute units... 2000 compute units 4000 compute units. But it would offer a path to actual real mid range cards.... as that entire segment makes almost no sense for Nvidia or AMD anymore. Their chips are to expensive to put almost fully functioning silicon into a mid range part. So low end get the old stuff, and the mid range gets mostly forgotten... or announced months later after the fab has turned out enough crap chips that can be neutered.

    Something does have to give.
     
  4. alamox

    alamox Gawd

    Messages:
    612
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2014
    the Radeon VII wasn't probably planned, just got too many cut down skus ( which means yield are bad ) they decided to shift to gamers without even trying to tweak it a bit who cares about 16GB or ram when you can have 8GB for 150$ less, but guess RTX prcing help AMD make this shiety choice.
     
  5. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

    Messages:
    18,569
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Yeppers.
    I wanted to upgrade my 1080ti just cos I like having a new card and was planning on going 4K at some point.
    I'm now on 4K and still dont want a hugely overpriced faulty card that isnt a fat lot faster.
    Ray tracing is a no show for UHD.
    AMD are still to join the high end game unfortunately.
     
    mbelue likes this.
  6. ole-m

    ole-m Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    419
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Cause nvidia's yields are so bad because they made RTX2080TI and not only titans :)

    Yields are probably fine, all rumors point to it being way better than expected.
    Yields still can't fix bad architectures for gaming :)
     
    Marees likes this.
  7. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,597
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    I'm not so sure the VII wasn't planned. AMD has been selling the MI50 and MI60 Vega2 server cards since November. I don't believe they never planned to release those for gaming cards. I think they just wanted to get a few months of production first... using all the cherry picked parts for the MI60. I think AMD had a lot of big orders on that part well before they announced it.... pretty sure MI60 vega2s are the AMD hardware powering Googles project stream tests. I don't think AMD wanted to announce a consumer card and eat up all their chip stock until that was all well in hand. AMD I have no doubt has been bending over backwards for Google... in the hopes that in the next few years google goes full force into game streaming and sticks with AMD for all the required satellite gaming servers.
     
    joobjoob likes this.
  8. Hakaba

    Hakaba Gawd

    Messages:
    585
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Maxwell to Pascal nice, 10xx to TI also very nice, this generation with price increase...

    Both sides did well delivering higher performance, just not worth the asking price.
     
    Brian_B likes this.
  9. WyldeStile

    WyldeStile Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    158
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Last time that I check when an industry lacks disruptive competition, prices tend to rise. Just ask your ISP or your wireless providers.
     
    mbelue and Aioeyu like this.
  10. alamox

    alamox Gawd

    Messages:
    612
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2014
    well it doesn't make sense to me for them to release the card with no 8GB SKU knowing that 16GB of HBM cost around 300$, especialy for gaming where value matter, 549$ 8GB would make the card go from bad to great for gaming, suck less power, and the bandwidth impact isn't that high they would still have 512GB, that is why this seems to me like a why not kind of decision, without investing behind on the architecture to make it more suitable for gaming, even the drivers are iffy
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
    Hakaba and mbelue like this.
  11. TonyZ

    TonyZ Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    173
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    This is nothing new... Kinda the reason I'm still running my 970GTX, no reason to upgrade as it plays everything good at 1080p and most reasonably well at 1440p (max res of my monitor).
     
    Pieter3dnow likes this.
  12. sleepybp

    sleepybp Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    367
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Want a 4k card? Buy the used 1080ti for $550
    Need 1440P card? Buy a used GTX 1080 or Vega 64 for $350-$375.

    Everything else above that price point is a waste of money right now. This GPU market is lousy. The 1080Ti is 2 years old and has only lost $150 of its value from launch new.
    I am on a 1070ti i picked up for $300 (used) and will buy the first 7nm GPU that outperforms it for $399 or less (Likely to be Nvidia in early 2020 bc AMD will be focusing on the mid range only late 2019).
     
  13. piscian18

    piscian18 [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,057
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2005
    I think its a combination of things - In addition to disappointing price per dollar there's just not an engaging reason to purchase anything at all. The 4k gaming monitors are finally here but they're not even ultrawide and they run something like $2000 dollars. If 4k+ 144hz Ultrawide was here and Raytracing actually functioned yeah sure I'd be one of the idiots shucking out $1000 plus for a new card.
     
  14. c3k

    c3k 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,078
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2007
    My video cards are so old, all my games have a sepia tone.

    Sigh.
     
  15. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    15,263
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Well, I guess it all depends on circumstance, I won a free RTX 2070. Coming from an RX 580 and previously a GTX 980, its a hell of an upgrade and I'm pretty tickled about it, partially because I never win anything, but my ship finally came in! :)

    As for AMD's side, I'm a little disappointed but not at all surprised. I knew it wouldn't be the 20xx series killer everyone hyped it to be, you could have easily predicted its launch by AMD's history. Same with Nvidia, no competition, no major performance gains (in the mainstream) when compared to previous gen cards of the 10 series because they are basically in competition with themselves.
     
  16. Zam15

    Zam15 n00b

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Hopefully we'll see decent performance from Navi and Nvidia will hopefully speed up the lifecycle of this generation due to lower than expected sales and some competition. Pretty sure a Turing jump to 7nm, with some extra cores tossed in, bump GDDR6 memory capacity (12GB+) and speed would finally offer me enough incentive to upgrade from my SLI 980s to a single 4k card. We're close to being able to run every existing title on 4K ultra settings, just need 10 to 15 fps! Not including Ray Tracing..
     
  17. sleepybp

    sleepybp Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    367
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    LOL, who hyped the vega 7 launch? Everyone knew it would be a train wreck for gaming (its a professional card). I dont recall anyone expecting it to do well.
     
  18. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    15,263
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
  19. exlink

    exlink [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    4,152
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2006
    I agree. This is the first generation that I’m not upgrading. The new offerings are not appealing compared to my 1080 Ti.
     
    blert likes this.
  20. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,979
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    *Shrug* Things change, there was no way they were going to keep up the pace of the 2000's, just was not going to happen. It just means we can enjoy what we already spent our hard earned money on that much longer.
     
  21. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,979
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    mbelue likes this.
  22. sleepybp

    sleepybp Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    367
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    This is funny and so true.
    Prior to release all the Vega 7 articles say "amd better manage the hype" implying everyone expects it to be at best mediocre. Based on the super late product announcement think thats also the single best way to minimize hype.
     
  23. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    15,263
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Eh, you guys are right, obviously nobody knows what they're talking about. Moving on....
     
    Brian_B likes this.
  24. HAL_404

    HAL_404 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2018
    your "everything good" obviously doesn't include Rise or Shadow of the Tomb Raider, etc or ... you turn the eye candy so low you might as well be playing on XBox or PS4. GTX 970 is good for Metro Redux series, Mass effect series (but can't run Andromeda), etc but to say it's still current ? Metro Exodus releases in a few days ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    mbelue likes this.
  25. Smashing Young Man

    Smashing Young Man [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,517
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    This is basically the story across all technologies these days. I'm sure Ray Kurzweil is crying in his milk, but it was inevitable.
     
    deton8 likes this.
  26. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,979
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    No, just not you, based upon what you gave as "hyped" examples. Not hard to do the reading for myself, although you expected me to just take things at face value and not read anything, like most of [H]? LOL!
     
  27. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,341
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    It’s a subjective matter. I was playing Anthem demo on my 980 in 4K and was ok with visuals and performance. I had to turn most things waaaay down, but it didn’t bother me enough to throw $500+ at fixing it.

    To say it “can’t run” something isn’t true. To say it runs at lower fidelity/frame rate/etc than you are accustomed to or would prefer would be accurate.

    Those are two entirely different statements.
     
    GoldenTiger, Bawjaws, FlawleZ and 4 others like this.
  28. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    15,263
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Did you really read anything though? I doubt it, probably just skimmed through the headlines to bolster your talking points.
     
  29. zalazin

    zalazin [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,490
    Joined:
    May 12, 2000
    I was thinking of buying an MSI laptop with RTX 2060 but with the high price and lack of real performance gains with current games think I'll stay with My Asus ROG laptop I7, 3gb 1060. I won't even touch an AMD product with a ten foot pole after the OEM only driver support debacle on their mobile APUs........which now are supposed to get real AMD support this month (maybe)........
     
    ZeroBarrier and joobjoob like this.
  30. joobjoob

    joobjoob Gawd

    Messages:
    545
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004

    That was reasoned, insightful, and original. You really suck at interneting
     
    GoldenTiger, mbelue and ChadD like this.
  31. SnowBeast

    SnowBeast [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,204
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Whether we like it or not, WE NEED INTEL to smack the shit out of these two next year. Need something ground breaking from them. Shake up the market please Intel.
     
    5150Joker, sleepybp and ole-m like this.
  32. azuza001

    azuza001 Gawd

    Messages:
    694
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2012
    I am STILL running a r 290x in my main gaming rig, and resident evil 2 remake runs amazingly on it. I am sure it could be better, i think its running basically at 1080p and medium settings with full aa, but damn if it doesnt look amazing and run smooth on that "antiquated " piece of equipment.

    There just are not the steps there used to be in tech. Hell, i am sure new games run great on older tech than i am running now, and i am running a 6600k at 4.5 and 16 gigs ram. Nothing special, but good for what it does.

    Would a 2500k with a different high end 2013 graphics card run the latest battlefield / re / whatever game at 60 fps while still looking great and not have any issues? I believe so. Tech has been going pretty slow the last 5-10 years. Not that i am complaining, but nvidia and amd need to do something different than trying to focus on compute power / mining ability / ray tracing. None of those things excite me like the idea of say vr does (which i still haven't jumped on board with). Gamers used to be the pushers for innovation with graphics cards back in the late 90's. Give us a good reason to do it again please!
     
  33. HAL_404

    HAL_404 Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2018
    the title is Resident Evil 2 REBIRTH, not remake and you're talking about a 10 year old game with improved textures.

    How some of you folks can say your old GPU is still great for today's games eludes me, especially since I'm using a GTX 1070 Ti @ 1080p in order to get smooth, no pausing/stuttering game play with any major game title released the last 2 years.

    Metro Exodus will be released in 6 days ... let us know how it runs on a R290X or GTX 970

    unless I'm mistaken (and I may be) the following requirements are based on 1080p res:

    min requirement: Radeon HD 7870 or NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050
    Recommended: RX Vega 56 8GB or NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070
     
    Shadowed likes this.
  34. funkydmunky

    funkydmunky 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,217
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Tell me about it. Just forced myself to buy a RTX2080. I promised myself VR this year and this is what I got. Same perf as last gen but with less RAM. AMD is not in the VR game and I WANT a warranty for the CAD $1150 (shipped) I paid (great deal btw as I shopped and got top Asus).
    What would be my options? CAD $1750 for a 2080ti? Not going to happen.
    I will enjoy my VR when my Valve(Steam) bla-bla VR ships, but damn, what a cost!

    I did get two free games I'll never play though!
    Sigh...
     
  35. odditory

    odditory [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,014
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    No, the moment Intel made any dGPU inroads, all the people whining about the new era of GPUs priced out of their reach will be whining about Intel roo.

    It'll be years before Intel is relevant in this space and yields make prices competitive, meanwhile Nvidia will continue to run laps around everyone.
     
  36. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,022
    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    I'm rarely interested in the high end GPU launches now. To me the cost/benefit ratio has got out of hand. They are now like the Mercedes S Class launch. They will only sell 1500 of them but we look at them so we know what we'll be getting in our C class in a year or two.

    Cmon AMD/Nvidia, what you got interesting for $300 that's not re-heated leftovers?
     
  37. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,022
    Joined:
    May 7, 2005

    As a IT support guy that lives near a large University and looks after loads of student laptops...never buy gaming laptops. They are terrible. They will make you cry. Poorly designed low volume is bad!

    "Ahh yeah the mainboard has gone in your $1500 MSI laptop! A replacement mainboard is going to cost you $750, will take a month to come in from Korea so add on $50 shipping and then add on the labour..."
     
  38. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,979
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Makes me wish I had stuck with my R9290X over the years instead of upgrading for no good reason at all. Imagine the amount of money I could have saved.
     
  39. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,979
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    So, you finally got rid of that laptop instead of complaining about it all the time? Good for you, finally. On a different note, good luck with that Asus laptop lasting for very long, did you get an extended warranty with it? (Put a cooling pad under it well you are gaming, that should help it last longer.)
     
  40. steakman1971

    steakman1971 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,436
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    I still have a 970. I'm planning on a new system build this year - if I were not giving my current system to one of my kids, I'd probably just stick with the 970! It games at 1080p just fine for me.
    I have a 4K monitor that only gets used by my work laptop. I'm going to try to stick to a budget of about $400 for my GPU - would be happy gaming at 1440p (seems like 4k is not going to be great at my price point).