Air vs Water

[Entropy1982]

Hey guys, I have a P180 and have been looking at air cooling this whole time.

I haven't gotten any of my parts yet but they will be
X2 3800+
7800GTX
2X1gb of crucial value ram
some other stuff

Anyway, so i've thought about it and if i replace all 4 (3 included + 1 optional) fans in my case for about $10 each and get a Zalman 9500 which will be like 60-70ish, a cooler for my gpu will be like 30, i will be spending like 140 bucks on air cooling anyway on air cooling. Would it be worthit to just spend like 200 bucks on a self made watercooling unit and get better temps or is it not really possible to get anything decent for around 200?

Also, noise is not much of a concern at all.

Is my thinking off here?

Also, will i be able to fit everything i need to in a P180 for water cooling?

 

[perp]

high end air cooling is as good as low to medium end water cooling. only louder. and drier.

very truly yours,
politenessman

 

[Entropy1982]

high end air cooling is as good as low to medium end water cooling. only louder. and drier.

very truly yours,
politenessman

But what if your room is hot? wouldn't water be more advantagous?

Here is what someone suggested :

Swiftech MCW6002-64™ Water Block : 31.50
The Danger Den DD12V-D5 Pump: $75
Danger Den Black Ice Pro 120mm Radiator (Black) w/ Customizable Fittings: $49


So this would be about 150 plus T-fitting and some form of coolant additive.
I can add a gpu block later if anything (not sure what that would cost)
How much better would this perform than the air setup i described?

 

[Michigan PC]

watercooling is more effective then air cooling. Think of it this way...if you go to the beach and it is 80 degrees out you feel warm. Then if you step into the water for a dip it is cool even though the water is the same temp as the air. Water pulls heat away from an object better then air does.

 

[Urbanlegend213]

if i was you i would go with WCing depending on what you want cause if you are gona spend so much money on air you are gonna be Getting some GOOD air cooling and that is equal to a pretty good WCing system but for the same price your Watercooling is gonna be better and you will have a lot more advantages, but if you are interasted in water cooling i made an ok WCing setup for arounf 85$ but it was only cooling my CPU, and it was thermal electric cpu block, primoflex tubing,black ice pro reditor, and a elhiem or sumthing ump that was pumping about 3hundred sumthing GPH, i got a great deal on it and you can make a really good WCing setup((self-made)) if you can find deals on a lot of the parts, Go with watercooling its looks so hot inside you case((even in mine with only one water block it looked hot)) and you will be reaching about the same temps probly better, and also yeah its possible to WC in a P180 but the tubing is gonna be little tight so be careful when tubing it all up, and if you need help with that google it they have a lot links that will help you on that topic....peace

 

[J-Pepper]

But what if your room is hot? wouldn't water be more advantagous?

Here is what someone suggested :

Swiftech MCW6002-64™ Water Block : 31.50
The Danger Den DD12V-D5 Pump: $75
Danger Den Black Ice Pro 120mm Radiator (Black) w/ Customizable Fittings: $49


So this would be about 150 plus T-fitting and some form of coolant additive.
I can add a gpu block later if anything (not sure what that would cost)
How much better would this perform than the air setup i described?

You've mated a super high flow pump with a block that works best a low flows... either save some money and downgrade the pump because you are on a budget... or ignore the budget and get a swiftech storm g4...

I would suggest to think long and hard about whether you actually need water, especially when you say yourself air is fine.

But if you do go for it.. i'd suggest the Swiftech H20-120-BK™ Bare Liquid Cooling Kit Rev 3A from Sidewinder Computers at $159, it's only $9 over budget and then the delivery cost on top... and that's a very decent kit...

 

[Erasmus354]

The radiator is only 30$ from dangerdenstore.com

 

[Erasmus354]

You've mated a super high flow pump with a block that works best a low flows... either save some money and downgrade the pump because you are on a budget... or ignore the budget and get a swiftech storm g4...

I would suggest to think long and hard about whether you actually need water, especially when you say yourself air is fine.

But if you do go for it.. i'd suggest the Swiftech H20-120-BK™ Bare Liquid Cooling Kit Rev 3A from Sidewinder Computers at $159, it's only $9 over budget and then the delivery cost on top... and that's a very decent kit...

Really because last I checked the Swiftech 6000 was a very flow agnostic block. Although I agree he would not see much of a performance drop by going with a weaker pump (thanks to the mcw6000 being flow agnostic). The extra pump gives him the luxury of adding a GPU cooler to the loop at a later date, and maybe a second radiator without experiencing a big drop in flow.

 

[Entropy1982]

You've mated a super high flow pump with a block that works best a low flows... either save some money and downgrade the pump because you are on a budget... or ignore the budget and get a swiftech storm g4...

I would suggest to think long and hard about whether you actually need water, especially when you say yourself air is fine.

But if you do go for it.. i'd suggest the Swiftech H20-120-BK™ Bare Liquid Cooling Kit Rev 3A from Sidewinder Computers at $159, it's only $9 over budget and then the delivery cost on top... and that's a very decent kit...

Well, i'm not on too much of a budget. It's flexible. Ok let me clarify... the main reason for me to watercool would be for better overclocking potential... not to reduce noise at all... What are the downsides of watercooling (is the whole water getting on your parts thing a real enough probability to worry about?) and would i reach a better overclock with it?

 

[Erasmus354]

If your looking for overclocking potential then the extra 35$ will get you one of the single best solutions for overclocking your processor without venturing into the extreme cooling area. The Swiftech Storm with a Laing D5 pump (the one you selected) is about the best performing solution you can ask for, and the Swiftech Storm is the best retail waterblock you can easily buy in the US.

I would say get the D5 / Storm / BIP that you have selected and dont look back. Yes water leaking is a real problem, but if you are careful, use correct clamps on your tubing, and run a proper leak test you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Entropy1982]

Really because last I checked the Swiftech 6000 was a very flow agnostic block. Although I agree he would not see much of a performance drop by going with a weaker pump (thanks to the mcw6000 being flow agnostic). The extra pump gives him the luxury of adding a GPU cooler to the loop at a later date, and maybe a second radiator without experiencing a big drop in flow.

I actually would be interested in adding a gpu block at a later date. What do those run?

Can someone suggest an option other than the 3 items i posted if it's better? thanks


I am not willing to go over $250 with shipping

 

[Entropy1982]

If your looking for overclocking potential then the extra 35$ will get you one of the single best solutions for overclocking your processor without venturing into the extreme cooling area. The Swiftech Storm with a Laing D5 pump (the one you selected) is about the best performing solution you can ask for, and the Swiftech Storm is the best retail waterblock you can easily buy in the US.

I would say get the D5 / Storm / BIP that you have selected and dont look back. Yes water leaking is a real problem, but if you are careful, use correct clamps on your tubing, and run a proper leak test you have nothing to worry about.

So that would be like 200 without shipping right?

1. How much would the tubing and the rest of the stuff cost around?

2. How much more of an overclock do you think i'd be able to achieve with this over the air i mentioned?

 

[dtess17]

i have the Koolance Exos 1 and it works real nice.It should be very cheap now to. In terms of WC this has to be the easiest kit to install. I know it isn't as good as some of the other DIY kits. But price and easy of use are big selling points. If you want a $200 price tag you can get some good performance from this. Best part is you can add chipset vga hard drive and just about every other type of block to the system with no effort.

I'm am planning a build for a new system and to be honest i will be moving back to air. Although my exos has never really given me any probelms, i find air just to be a much cheaper solution. Also i always worry about a leak any time i have to move my system .

A case with a well thought out air flow, and good HSF will be on par with WC at a fraction of the price.

 

[Entropy1982]

yea that's the thing for me... i'm one of those guys that is willing to sacrifice a 100mhz here and there for peace of mind and ease of use.... i really don't want to worry about leaks and stuff like that.... the only reason i was thinking about it is that i realized i'm going to be spending like 150 bucks on air .... so i figured i could get a much better performance WC solution. I'm still not really sure what to do yet.

 

[kirbyrj]

yea that's the thing for me... i'm one of those guys that is willing to sacrifice a 100mhz here and there for peace of mind and ease of use.... i really don't want to worry about leaks and stuff like that.... the only reason i was thinking about it is that i realized i'm going to be spending like 150 bucks on air .... so i figured i could get a much better performance WC solution. I'm still not really sure what to do yet.

$150 on air? What components were you thinking of using? Even a XP120 and a decent fan is only going to run you $60 maybe.

 

[Entropy1982]

$150 on air? What components were you thinking of using? Even a XP120 and a decent fan is only going to run you $60 maybe.

read my original msg in this thread

 

[Erasmus354]

Well I will tell you that I have an Antec P180, and I am simply using the included fans. The Tricool fans are pretty quiet on the low setting, and can push a decent amount of air on medium or high. So it isn't really needed to replace the fans. Hell, I was getting 48C load temps with one fan exhausting at the lowest setting and the Stock AMD heatsink. I have since then used another fan on the low speed setting because my chipset needed more airflow. So you dont really need to replace all of the fans.

 

[Entropy1982]

Well I will tell you that I have an Antec P180, and I am simply using the included fans. The Tricool fans are pretty quiet on the low setting, and can push a decent amount of air on medium or high. So it isn't really needed to replace the fans. Hell, I was getting 48C load temps with one fan exhausting at the lowest setting and the Stock AMD heatsink. I have since then used another fan on the low speed setting because my chipset needed more airflow. So you dont really need to replace all of the fans.

Well i'm going to be doing some pretty heavy overclocking so i just thought max airflow is important

 

[bob]

But what if your room is hot? wouldn't water be more advantagous?

I used watercooling to chill out a peltier on some mosfets once.

The only advantage is, you can dump out a LOT of heat into one little area and have the heat actually carried away by flowing water.

Just think of water cooling has a heatsink-extension, with low thermal resistance. Unless you are overclocking heavily, and/or running a peltier, there is no need for water cooling.

Either way, your still cooling with your hot room air. My next server chassis/rack will be water cooled. Why? I can have a somewhat sealed chassis to mount the servers in, run water piping outside through my open window, and have the heat go outside.

Know anything about car cooling? Air cooled engines are great, more reliable (dont need anything replaced to keep cooling), but are awfull once you start putting out more horsepower. You need a lot of airflow. Water cooling, you can just run hoses out to a big-ass radiator and high flow pump.

I hope my explanation didnt make it any worse.

 

[Erasmus354]

Even if you are not doing overclocking there is a big reason to move to watercooling bob....silence. Like you said watercooling is basically a heatsink extension. What you can do with watercooling is use say a dual 120mm radiator to cool the processor. This gives you much much more cooling area than any heatsink could offer, allowing you to cool your processor better and with much less noise.

The other advantage that watercooling has over air cooling is that it moves the heat away from the processor much quicker than air cooling can, and also lets your case ambient be lower (depending upon how you orient the radiator though).

 

[Ice Czar]

but the lowest possible temperature in either is dictated by the room ambient your eventually transfering to, so if as alluded to earlier your room is hot, while you maybe able to "wick" the heat away faster with a denser intermediate transfer medium (water) you still need to transfer that to the room ambient.

There are three key components to any thermal solution and they all trade off with each other

the interface
starting with the physical contact between the CPU and the heatsink or waterblock, which is a set sized point source, you try to transfer that heat to a larger interface to eventually dump it into the room ambient (or outside the room) the smaller that interface the less total heat it can dump for a given difference in temperature

the transfer medium
the larger the mass (for a given time) you employ across an interface the more heat you can transfer be it water or air. Obviously water has a much larger mass for volume than air does, and is substantially better at transfer to a larger interface, the flowrate of either air or water dictating the total mass that can be employed, further complicated by resistance in the case, in the interface or in the water cooled loop.

the temperature differential
the difference between the temperature of the interface and that of the transfer medium
the greater the difference the more heat can be transfer, double the differential and you double the transfer

so
the larger the interface the less mass and temperature differential required
the larger the mass the less interface and temperature differential required
the larger the temperature differential the less mass and interface required

an aircooled system is less complex, being more or less a single stage, a heatpipe system is often employed these days in aircolled heatsinks to assist basic conduction through a heatsink to reach a larger fin interface, thats a multistage but one with no maintence. There is also the issue of getting the air into and out of the case

in a water cooled system its definately a 2 stage process and there is maintence as well as at least the potential for disaster with a coolant leak (if you take precautions you can substantially reduce those risks)

the point however is that at some room ambient temperature your able to overwhelm any thermal solution, that often would be higher than you could actually tolerate but more importantly as the room temperature increase the efficiency of your thermal solution will decrease so you need both a high enough flow rate (air\water) and large enough interface (heatsink\radiator) to handle your maximum heatload at your maximum room temperature.
And that without phase change or Thermoelectric (TEC\Peltier) assitance youll never go lower than the room ambient.

to say that a good aircooled system equals a lowend or midrange water cooled system is both useful and misleading, its useful in reality, its misleading in assuming a typical temperature differential and clouding the actual controlling factors, even the oldest basic Pentium2 heatsink can suffice if the temperature differential is great enough, of course, you wouldnt be able to survive out on the Siberian Tundra for long at that temperature

 

[SpoogeMonkey]

I am not willing to go over $250 with shipping

Throw in $7 for shipping and you're set.

 

[J-Pepper]

Throw in $7 for shipping and you're set.

What he says.