Aimpad Kickstarter

lmadsen said:
I have probably heard/read this about 50 times. So, I'm getting a very clear message of what people want. The cost of a full keyboard of mechanical switches is really expensive. In the volumes that we are looking at Cherry MX swtiches will cost .50 each. For 100+ keys that would be 50 bucks just for the switches sitting on the board. This is roughly 35 bucks more than the stand alone device we are currently running with. That doesn't take into account the cost of a much larger circuit board, a much bigger enclosure, and additional plastic moldings which are around $10,000 - $15,000 each. I'm being completely open and honest here so I hope you can do the same. If we offered a full blown keyboard for $199 with 8 keys that are analog capable would it be "worth" it to you? Just trying to get a feel if this is ridiculous or reasonable.
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If 4 of the 8 are the arrow keys then count me in!
Last week Origin had Dead Space for free to download. 7Gb file. I only get 10Gb a month in bandwidth. I downloaded it and went to setup the controls and you couldnt use the arrow keys for movement. If I had something like this along with the PGP software then I wouldnt have wasted 70% of my monthly internet.
 
Thank you everyone for the comments and the support! At the end of the day, if what I started here made it so analog WASD (or ESDF!) keys are a standard and expected feature of a gaming keyboard then I see that as a success.

You mentioned Dead Space. I played that game originally on the keyboard and it was definitely a fun game... creepy as hell. I decided to retry it with Aimpad the other day... it is really hard to convey the experience. But when you are playing a horror game if you are running around all the time at a constant speed it isn't very immerse or realistic. But when you come to a corner and you aren't sure what is around that corner... and you instinctively move slowly to just peak around the corner... it adds "something" to the experience. It's the tension build up, or the impending sense of dread. When you are able to control how fast you move it makes you "feel" a part of the game. I really want others to feel that using a keyboard. You can totally get the same feeling if you play using a gamepad... but shooting the arms off those monsters is a whole lot easier using a mouse.

There was mention of chat bindings and other macros and such. The PGP software is pretty impressive in its flexibility. So, any key can do anything you want (any gamepad, keyboard, mouse function, run a script, an .exe, etc.). With analog keys it opens up lots of possibilities from a general computer use standpoint like controlling the mouse pointer, or scroll wheel to scroll on long web pages, or adjust the volume a small or large amount, and even CAD applications would have a lot of usefulness. These things are possible using a digital keyboard today but not in a smooth analog function that makes some sense if you want subtle adjustments rather than full blown.

The question is asked many times about a full keyboard. It is definitely something I want to do. It costs lots of money to do. I wanted to start small and focused on the stand alone device to demonstrate that this is something that gamers want and appreciate. If it makes sense to have a stretch goal include a full keyboard we'll do that too. But just reaching our goal demonstrates a lot and opens the doors to partner with another company with deeper pockets than our own to make the vision of every gaming keyboard an analog keyboard a reality.

Thank you all for your support and keep the discussion going! I'll keep popping in and out as time allows.
 
Not to be fud, but what is the value of this beyond the four wasd keys, as applicable for most games?
and potentially an additional two keys for rotation clockwise and counterclockwise.

I would appreciate mouse buttons with variable rate of fire, or software that could map three keys to one (light press equals action 1, medium press equals action 2, complete press equals action 3) obviously at the cost of responsiveness.

Also, please take into consideration which fingers are most versatile and give those fingers the most keys. (Ring finger gets 4, thumb gets 9)
 
lmadsen said:
I have probably heard/read this about 50 times. So, I'm getting a very clear message of what people want. The cost of a full keyboard of mechanical switches is really expensive. In the volumes that we are looking at Cherry MX swtiches will cost .50 each. For 100+ keys that would be 50 bucks just for the switches sitting on the board. This is roughly 35 bucks more than the stand alone device we are currently running with. That doesn't take into account the cost of a much larger circuit board, a much bigger enclosure, and additional plastic moldings which are around $10,000 - $15,000 each. I'm being completely open and honest here so I hope you can do the same. If we offered a full blown keyboard for $199 with 8 keys that are analog capable would it be "worth" it to you? Just trying to get a feel if this is ridiculous or reasonable.
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That's the problem though, pricing is going to suck one way or another. At $200 I probably wouldn't buy it unless it had many other features I am currently looking for, like customizable colored back lit keys like the upcoming corsair keyboard has in addition to the analog WASD keys.

Keyboards are also very personal things, most like the standard IBM 104 key style keyboards, but for myself I much prefer the small backspace next to the backslash key and a large backwards L shaped enter key type board. At the moment I want customizable colored back lighting on the keys enough to want to switch layouts but I have gone out of my way to get the current one I am using because I have been using this style for since my first PC. Funny thing though is if I found every feature I wanted on a single keyboard, I wouldn't have an issue spending $200 for it, the problem is I know I will never find that keyboard.

You're probably better off getting what you have off the ground first as a dedicated device. For me personally though, I know I won't buy it because after the initial use no matter how good it is in the games, I just won't bring it out to use it because I don't have the desktop space to keep it plugged in all the time. For me a controller works because I am not tethered and it fits exactly under my monitor and I can grab it any time I need it. A similar thing happened with my racing gear and flight sim stuff, in the end I don't use them much anymore because their bulk means I can't keep them plugged in to use when needed for a quick game. I have to want and have time to play a racing/flight sim game for a couple of hours at least before I will spend the time to get the equipment out to play. Your device falls into this category for me. It'll be better yes, but it's not there all the time, and competing with the kb that is there all the time with pretty much mean I'll use the keyboard over it 9/10 times.

Also you might want to consider making it both wired + bluetooth. Being a addon device, not being tethered with a cable might be another advantageous feature to draw in some customers especially those that want to move farther away from their screens.
 
Thuleman said:
For the uninitiated; what's the big deal about whether it's WASD or ESDF? Seems rather inconsequential to me?



Early on in the development of the Space Navigator I was in a focus group that evaluated its usefulness and function. I hated the thing, it's great if you use it for 60 seconds at a time, but any prolonged use makes your wrist cramp up like mad because the ergonomics of it are all wrong. That was a long time ago when all they had was what's today called Space Navigator, and I just googled it and was surprised to find that both the company still exist as well as the product still being around.
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Ask yourself first why do we use WASD? The answer is because for a long time most keyboards sucked and you could only get good key rollover on the modifier keys like shift, ctrl, alt, etc... So the movement keys in games were set to WASD because it was more safe, you wouldn't want someone calling your company saying key combinations do not work.

So the reason other key combinations are better are mostly about efficiency. if you set your hands on RDFG you simply have more keys available closer to you because most of the keys are small. Where as if you use WASD your ring finger only has 1 single row to the left.

The ESDF config has probably been the second most popular for several reasons. First it is the natural position for your fingers on the home row if you type correctly. Second it keeps you close enough to still use most of the modifier keys in case you have key jamming problems on your particular keyboard with a certain games combinations of key presses.

The solution the gaming industry has come up with is of course just to make games simpler and make them use less keys and almost no key combinations. That is why back int he day you could hardly get any good information on key jamming because most people were playing counter strike which just didn't require hardly any keyboard use. So they would put up reviews for gaming keyboards and say oh this works great. No problems here, then you would buy it for a game like tribes and be saying WTF why cant I move and VGS at the same time.
 
Also I will say this about this device. The one and only valid argument console gamers used to have is the gradient on their joystick. I know some single player gamers use an xbox controller on the PC because of this. So if this comes in the form of a keyboard it could end that final argument.
 
Thank you for the honest feedback. It does make the most sense for us to stay focused on our initial goal of a stand alone device, and that is where we are heading. I totally get the peripheral issue for wheels that it take a lot of effort to want to use those specific controllers. Looking for additional feedback, what if the Aimpad device were compact enough to inconspicuously sit on the left side of your keyboard. Think along the lines of a Num pad 10 key layout that you currently have on the right side of your keyboard. Would something like that make sense, or still probably not for you? Just looking for ways to improve on how to present the concept. Thanks again!
 
lmadsen said:
Looking for additional feedback, what if the Aimpad device were compact enough to inconspicuously sit on the left side of your keyboard. Think along the lines of a Num pad 10 key layout that you currently have on the right side of your keyboard. Would something like that make sense, or still probably not for you? Just looking for ways to improve on how to present the concept. Thanks again!
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For me it really doesn't work because I have exactly just under a CD case worth of space on my left side of my keyboard. A numpad style addon would work better for me in terms of desk space, but I think it might not be a good idea because it's not exactly ergonomic and might be hand cramping for long game sessions. I think your prototype design works in 2 categories, it's wide enough that it seems ergonomic for a hand and it is a mirror image so it works for both left and right handed people.
 
IMO your problem is this, if people want to have analog input and they have a small amount of space next to them why don't they just buy a joystick? They can be had for $50 for decent ones. And it will be far more accurate for flight games etc... than will ever be possible in the limited travel of a key. This device will never be capable of more than what the small junky analog sticks on console controllers do its a physical limitation of the fingers pressing a 4mm key travel which is even less than the inch or so you get on a xbox joy stick. You can put atomic sensors in there it wont matter because human fingers can only get so much precision in such a short distance.

If the device is built into a mechanical keyboard with NKRO it becomes a premium keyboard that anyone can buy to replace their existing keyboard with no drawbacks. If it remains a stand alone device it becomes a very very niche product trying to wedge itself in a tiny market with many overlapping devices.

Think about it the nostromo game pad already does what this can do for less than $100, you have hundreds of joy stick options to choose from that will be more accurate and vastly superior for flight sims and so on. What exact problem does this really solve? IMO as a stand alone device it solves no existing problem. As a feature added to a keyboard its an efficient win win design.
 
Also I don't know about your supply chain but it seems to me that building it into an existing mechanical keyboard should be far easier than trying to make a stand alone device. You just have to ask for a PCB to be made then tell current Chinese factories to make it. I assume a stand alone device will mean you going through a complete R&D, prototyping and expensive injection molds.
 
rudy said:
Also I don't know about your supply chain but it seems to me that building it into an existing mechanical keyboard should be far easier than trying to make a stand alone device. You just have to ask for a PCB to be made then tell current Chinese factories to make it. I assume a stand alone device will mean you going through a complete R&D, prototyping and expensive injection molds.
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I had the same thoughts.

I realize it is beneficial for them to make a complete product but what would be cool is if they actually made these 'analog mechanical' keys as their own components in the same way you can order mechanical keys and wire them up to create your own keyboard if you were so inclined.

Seems like a neat concept overall, but niche products (especially crowd sourced ones) tend to be hit or miss, with more leaning towards the miss side.

Just look at Occulus Rift and Palmer... :(
 
I would be interested in these features on a full keyboard and have a hard time understanding why we already dont have them as gaming has been clunky and awkward for decades. I think of the thousands I have spent over the years for bleeding edge graphics and in reality the difference is very minimal. If one item could truely change the immersion level of games and general computing I would be overwhelmed with joy. Honestly I am not much of a stand alone product person and would like this to be in a full keyboard. As a stand alone product I could see value in using it for photo editing, auto cad applications and scanning my map in Rise of Flight or a good addition to MEch Warrior. As a keyboard I could see $200 as a stand alone device my price point is $45 - $64. Good Luck
 
AK0tA said:
I would be interested in these features on a full keyboard and have a hard time understanding why we already dont have them as gaming has been clunky and awkward for decades. I think of the thousands I have spent over the years for bleeding edge graphics and in reality the difference is very minimal. If one item could truely change the immersion level of games and general computing I would be overwhelmed with joy. Honestly I am not much of a stand alone product person and would like this to be in a full keyboard. As a stand alone product I could see value in using it for photo editing, auto cad applications and scanning my map in Rise of Flight or a good addition to MEch Warrior. As a keyboard I could see $200 as a stand alone device my price point is $45 - $64. Good Luck
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Good feedback, man. Thank you! I'm very clearly getting the sense that the majority of people want a full keyboard. I struggled with launching the kickstarter as a full keyboard simply because I knew it would be right around 200 bucks for us to make them and I felt asking something like 199 for a full keyboard would be too much. I am getting the sense that I misunderstood the market appeal for a full keyboard with the technology and there appears to be plenty of people who would pay 200 for a solid mechanical keyboard with the added functionality of analog keys. So, furthering this discussion, the complexity of making a keyboard that appeals to lots of people is difficult. Some want a minimal layout that takes up a minimal amount of space. Some people want as many keys as you can fit on the keyboard. Somewhere in the middle you have something like this:
http://www.maxkeyboard.com/max-keyb...kl-cherry-mx-backlit-mechanical-keyboard.html It is fairly minimalistic and is lacking the 10 key layout. Do you think that would be middle ground enough to appeal to a wide market? Do you see that keyboard and think, "If it had analog WASD or ESDF I'd pay 50 bucks more?" The answer to that question speaks volumes.
 
The problem with a full keyboard is that it is still a gaming peripheral, as MX red is not very well suited for typing. I would never buy a click-free full keyboard, and anything like MX blue would not work with this tech. So for people doing more than gaming on their computer, it would be having two complete keyboards at hand, which would be a far greater space-thief than having the game-pad style version. However, keysize and layout may be the defining difference here.
This is a horrible example: http://www.dansdata.com/images/csgamepad/pad_280.jpg , but may show that there might be an idea to have a really custom key-cap form, not just layout.
 
Oh, just thought of another thing. I think that for a pressure sensitive key, a much heavier resistance than MX red might be helpful. Even Black can be to light travel to really get a good feeling of precision. Then again, I havn't tested it, but it feels like the reds would be tiresome to use with precision.
 
SDplus said:
The problem with a full keyboard is that it is still a gaming peripheral, as MX red is not very well suited for typing. I would never buy a click-free full keyboard, and anything like MX blue would not work with this tech. So for people doing more than gaming on their computer, it would be having two complete keyboards at hand, which would be a far greater space-thief than having the game-pad style version. However, keysize and layout may be the defining difference here.
This is a horrible example: http://www.dansdata.com/images/csgamepad/pad_280.jpg , but may show that there might be an idea to have a really custom key-cap form, not just layout.
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The implementation of a custom keycap form/shape for a Cherry MX or MX compatible switch will significantly increase the price of production as it would require the development of custom molds which is very, very, very expensive. As such, it is not a sound idea given the nature of this project.
 
I have been learning about quite a few missteps we have made in the campaign. Somethings have not been very clear or have unnecessarily been confusing. We are using Cherry MX Black keys in our prototype. We found early on that the Reds did not provide enough resistance and it was difficult to keep your finger steady as a desired depth. Blacks are actually very well tuned for Aimpad. The animation shows a red switch purely because you can see what is going on with a red swtich. Using a black key switch it would be even more confusing! :)

Our engineers have been working really hard to get our next prototype ready for PAX this week. We are still waiting on on a few components to show up today, but seeing as there isn't a more [H] place than HardOCP here is a sneak preview just for you:
pax-prototype1.jpg

I think there is value in having a small compact key pad with analog buttons (there are 6 on this prototype) that you could place on the left side of your keyboard and use it for gaming or any other general analog functions you could take advantage of in Windows.. I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts.
 
Where does one rest their palms?

My thumb is more flexible than my ringer finger, yet i am supposed to use them to access the same number of buttons each?
 
For over a decade I've been using the number (8,4,6,2) keypad for FPS games. It was working perfectly for me till I bought a new desk with a smaller keyboard tray so I can't situate my arms like I used and now have to learn the WASD way though I think I'm gonna go with ESDF. The Aimpad sounds great though it seems only the four movement buttons need to be pressure sensitive.

Keyboards in general need to be rethought!
 
I'm not sure if I would ever need a keyboard/keypad like this. After using a mechanical keyboard, I don't want to bottom out keys, it'd be weird trying to switch between those 2 different ways of using a keyboard. Also for what games would it really be better for?

Fighting games? Controller or fighting stick.
RTS? Mechanical keyboard.
Twitch FPS? 99% of the time, I want to be moving at 100% speed. Mechanical keyboard
Open world games with vehicles? (GTA or Planetside 2) Switch between keyboard and 360 controller
Vehicles? 360 controller, drivewheel, joystick, all better and cheaper.

I guess for immersive FPS where I don't want to be running full speed.
 
PcZac said:
I'm not sure if I would ever need a keyboard/keypad like this. After using a mechanical keyboard, I don't want to bottom out keys, it'd be weird trying to switch between those 2 different ways of using a keyboard. Also for what games would it really be better for?

Fighting games? Controller or fighting stick.
RTS? Mechanical keyboard.
Twitch FPS? 99% of the time, I want to be moving at 100% speed. Mechanical keyboard
Open world games with vehicles? (GTA or Planetside 2) Switch between keyboard and 360 controller
Vehicles? 360 controller, drivewheel, joystick, all better and cheaper.

I guess for immersive FPS where I don't want to be running full speed.
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I would never suggest that this product is better than a purpose built controller for a specific genre. I have built my own arcade sticks that I like to use for arcade fighters, and own a wheel and pedals for driving games.

There are couple things to consider. First of all, these are Cherry MX Mechanical switches. They have two modes: a normal keyboard mode, and an analog gaming mode. If you want to use them exactly like a normal mechanical keyboard they will behave exactly like a Cherry Mechanical switch. Same actuation point, same feel, everything. We actually use the existing switch contacts for the digital keyboard mode. The whole point of this product is that if you are in the market to buy a mechanical keyboard the analog functionality should just be an expected feature that a new mechanical keyboard should have if it is being marketed as a "gaming" keyboard.

As for being better than a steering wheel or HOTAS flight stick, of course not. But I know that my wheel and pedals take up a ton of space on my desk and I have to REALLY want to spend the time to dig it out of my garage, hook it up, and use it, and then take it all down again when I'm done. For me, I'd rather just flip a button on my keyboard to put it into "gaming mode" and have smooth analog control using the keyboard that is already on my desk and not have to deal with all that hassle if I'm just going to play for an hour or so.

As for which games types this works well for I have a Youtube series called "Amped About Aimpad" where I highlight how this technology works better than a normal digital only keyboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q02VxNoypE

I demonstrate UT2004, Medal of Honor, Assault Android Cactus, Battlefield 4, and next week I'll release a video for Thief: Deadly shadows. Any game where smooth analog movement is important, or transitions between on foot and vehicles, or smooth analog movement is more immerse is a good candidate for the use of this type of technology.
 
LonerVamp said:
*a feeble cry from the corner in a soft, parched voice...*

"...it's esdf...not wasd....home keys..."
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WERS...

Very interesting concept, I'd love this for my tight place and BF3/4 vehicles, a joystick just won't cut it. Will keep an eye on it.
 
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