Ageia PPU pricing announced

[Xipher]

aringail:

That UE3 or the Doom3 engine incorporate Novadex is the only thing I can see saving this first iteration of the PPU, but each already have their own, damn fine physics engines, so I don't see Sweeney or Carmack just throwing out all their hard work.

UE3 DOES use Novodex, they planed on it even before this happened (at least before it publicly happend), as I remeber them mentioning their adoption of Novodex back in 2004.

The only time I can see it being included with the Doom3 engine is by a third party, as Carmack likes to do it all in house so he can open it up later (like he has with his past engines)

 

[bipolar]

To follow up from my previous post

Physics and graphics are both areas where dedicated hardware can exploit the problem domain's underlying parallelism to deliver far more performance than a sequential CPU.
...
When people talk about physics in recent games, they mostly think of Unreal Tournament 2004's vehicles or Half-Life 2's dynamic objects. There, you have 10 or perhaps 100 big objects interacting physically in an otherwise static environment. Knocking chairs and tables around is fun, but that's hardly the apex of physics simulation.

The next steps are realistic dynamic environments, fluid simulation, large-scale particle simulation, and other very large-scale physical phenomenon. If you look at a modern action or sci-fi movie, and what's possible with the non-real-time computer graphics effects there, it's clear that major new physics innovations will be introduced into gaming as hardware performance increases 10x, 100x, and more
...
PhysX will make that possible on the PC

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/03/08/news_6119896.html

 

[Ryland]

I would probably pick one up if it was in the $50-$100 range. I really like having "good" physics within games and this would just make it better.

In the damage video I noticed that the last crate shot (around the 0:53 mark) just glided along the floor. That looked completely wrong.

 

[Filter]

Every single one of your examples illustrates a piece of hardware that was designed to fit a particular need. The need came into being because current technology was at a point where it could not handle what was being demanded of it.

PC gamming is not at the point where it cannot handle what is being demanded of it. Yet once again my 2500+ can easily handle the current top of the line physics engines that are present in todays games.

So I ask again ... why exactly do we need a PPU, when current cpus (not even top of the line) can handle the current physics engines?

thats why we have seen a stock 4ghz chip from intel and a stock 3ghz from amd. cause cpus are getting faster. sorry but cpu's are stuck right now and arent getting faster like they use too. this is a great thing for gamers where it will take alot off your cpu so your cpu can do other things.

take it your little barton chip can run hl2 maxed out at a playable framerate in a deathmatch with 15 people on screen at once??? i highly doubt it.

 

[bonkrowave]

thats why we have seen a stock 4ghz chip from intel and a stock 3ghz from amd. cause cpus are getting faster. sorry but cpu's are stuck right now and arent getting faster like they use too. this is a great thing for gamers where it will take alot off your cpu so your cpu can do other things.

take it your little barton chip can run hl2 maxed out at a playable framerate in a deathmatch with 15 people on screen at once??? i highly doubt it.

Well you are very wrong, it sure as hell can. I play HL2DM all the time. At 1080i none the less, thats what the 6800 GT OC+ 1 Gig RAM is for.

 

[Filter]

Well you are very wrong, it sure as hell can. I play HL2DM all the time. At 1080i none the less, thats what the 6800 GT OC is for.

i highly doubt it

1600x1200 with 4xaa 8xaf.
with every other setting maxed i highly doubt it.

 

[bonkrowave]

i highly doubt it

1600x1200 with 4xaa 8xaf.
with every other setting maxed i highly doubt it.

1920x1080i is what I run it at, the only lowered setting is water ... Its not at reflect all, but rather reflect world. Also AA is set to 3x, which is just as good looking as 4x, also 16xAF

 

[Filter]

so see your not running everything maxed out

 

[bonkrowave]

so see your not running everything maxed out

Oh please ... because I dont have reflect all on.
What is the benefit of reflect all in multiplayer ?

 

[Charles]

You know, a lot of people act like the PPU will not be of much use. From what I've read though, it's not just making the grass sway better...

Imagine a game in which every brick in a wall was a separate entity, and that you could use your rail gun to knock out individual elements to bring down an entire building.

Imagine wood that would splinter, not from premade animations/preformed splinters (like half life 2), but from material integrity calculations, with different splinter shapes/sizes every time.

Imagine explosions where gas/flames are not predesigned but produced whenever a great enough degree of heat/friction is developed.

Imagine water that has splashes that are not created from little sprites, but uses actual fluid dynamics calculations, with the ability to shoot a rocket into the water, and have the resulting wave knock enemies off boats.

If the games can deliver that (which the ps3 games apparently are, so I don't see why they wouldn't port them over to the pc), I'd drop $250 on it.

 

[Blue Knight]

No one's yet mentioned this yet I think: Remember, in computer terms, Hardware always has to preceed the software that uses it. No developer is going to create something that doesn't exist. Sure, the hardware cost is exorbant, and only the enthusiast can afford it, but it's paving the way to be mainstream.

Everyone remember the first Geforce and the highly touted T&L engine? A major graphics implementation, though horribly applied at the time. My roommate bought one for $350 I think (when most cards cost around $150). He wanted the best, even though no game used it yet. Games only started using T&L about the time the Geforce 2 came out.

I won't buy a PPU now, because of the high price, and there's no market application for me. However, I do think there's a practical use for it in the future. Physics, is all about how things behave, not about making things look pretty. And for things to behave real, it takes a lot of math. Imagine these senarios:

1. Racing games with real-time damage modeling. (Think 40 car Nascar pileup)
2. A FPS where sniping at 1000 yards in the rain with high winds takes REAL SKILL because of accurate bullet modeling (and not just aiming between crosshairs).
3. Imagine hearing a that same rifle shot echoing in mountain terrain multiple times, because sound bounces off the 4 mountains that are surrounding you.
4. A waterfall with real particle effects, or a pirate ship capsized by an ocean with 50 foot swells.
5. Real ground terraforming with explosions. Or how about starting an avalanche?
6. Weather effects, like snow or leaves falling from trees because of wind. It would be something interesting to look at while holed up in a WWII bunker.
7. And my personal favorite. Realistic Fire.....which will actually BURN something to ash or collapse a building (realistically of course) if you waited long enough.

Actually, now that I think of it "wind" isn't included in any game that I can think of (other than drafting cars).

Just a few ideas. I think a PPU can be a good thing for gamers. Maybe not now...but it will be. Give it 5 years and then see what you think.

EDIT: Oooh Charles, you took some of my examples. I took too long to write. Nice ones though.

 

[Filter]

Oh please ... because I dont have reflect all on.
What is the benefit of reflect all in multiplayer ?

just said your using 3x aa

 

[diehard]

just said your using 3x aa

AA has little to do with your processor, im sure his "little barton" can run just about everything a A64 can, with the right gfx card.

 

[bonkrowave]

I think a PPU, if implemented at all, would be better placed onboard the cpu, as a co-processor in a mutli core. I would also like to see a frame buffer, like the on on the XBOX gpu, which allows for AA to not impact the video card at all. Transfer rates with such a device have reached 2 terahertz a second. This would all lead to much better performance and will neagte the need for a new card.

I really dont think another add on card is needed.

 

[[Spectre]]

That is just fuckin insane, who in their right mind would drop another $300 just to play games.

The same people who buy a 1000 dollar CPU....duh

 

[Shakezilla]

I would buy it for $50 IF I got really into a game that used it



enemy in a house? burn it down

 

[Conker]

What a waste of money just on something for a few games. rather just get some more ram and speed up the system all around in everything. This company is going to go out of business faster than i thought it was. The drivers are most likely going to be crap and stuff.

This is for those people who like graphics too much. If every game had water physics and everything and if the price was below 80 dollars then i would think otherwise.

 

[Drakensoul]

What a waste of money just on something for a few games. rather just get some more ram and speed up the system all around in everything. This company is going to go out of business faster than i thought it was. The drivers are most likely going to be crap and stuff.

This is for those people who like graphics too much. If every game had water physics and everything and if the price was below 80 dollars then i would think otherwise.

Why are people making comments like this when they have no idea what they're talking about or how it's going to end up? ASUS is supporting them; they have a business model from which they expect to gain profit by manufacturing these. The amount of realism that future iterations of PPUs can add to games is no less than that added by 3D accelerators.

Do you really not recognize the difference between your every-day interactions with the world and in-game interactions with an in-game world? The difference is that in the game you're in an indestructible level and can only interact with a few entities. Those you can interact with don't respond as they should, and it's just all-around non-representative. I don't understand why people are smashing the hell out of PPUs when they have the potential to do the same thing for game realism that GPUs have done.

This is a first-generation device. Do you even remember the first-generation GPU? It was proprietary and certainly didn't improve 'older-generation games.'

Jesus christ, give it a chance. No, current physics engines are not 'good enough,' just as software renderers are no longer considered 'good enough.'

 

[darkeen]

Anyone saying "current CPUs are holding gaming back" or "a PPU would allow developers to make better games" is dead wrong, thats much like saying current CPUs are holding gaming back, why dont they just make 12 core chip that allow for 90teraflops?!? Current hardware will always hold gaming back becasue there is only so much power there, this PPU may make things better but so would 1GB gfx cards so would 12 core CPUs along that line 50GB of ram would also help.

 

[Drakensoul]

Anyone saying "current CPUs are holding gaming back" or "a PPU would allow developers to make better games" is dead wrong, thats much like saying current CPUs are holding gaming back, why dont they just make 12 core chip that allow for 90teraflops?!? Current hardware will always hold gaming back becasue there is only so much power there, this PPU may make things better but so would 1GB gfx cards so would 12 core CPUs along that line 50GB of ram would also help.

What does that have to do with anything?

Yeah, that would help. And so will a PPU. Just like the GPU did way back when a 90teraflop CPU would still have helped.

 

[defiant]

The same people who buy a 1000 dollar CPU....duh

Firstly there arent that many people who are prepared to drop $1000 on a cpu alone.....duh

Secondly, the amount that a person has to pay to build a decent pc is already pushing it. For the price of a PPU you could buy a ps3 or xbox 360 which already has PPU's integrated into it (may be wrong about this......or is it that one of the cpus can act like a PPU). I dont know about other people but the new consoles become more attractive in light of this sort of pricing

The point is why go down the PPU route when multi core cpus are on the verge of becoming main stream. Cant you achieve the same thing by designating physics calculations to one of the cpu cores?

 

[darkeen]

What does that have to do with anything?

Yeah, that would help. And so will a PPU. Just like the GPU did way back when a 90teraflop CPU would still have helped.

Simply saying that a PPU is not a needed device, every single device is holding back gaming (also pushing it forward) a PPU is not needed. I am fairly neutral in the idea of one if I can pick one up for $50 then I might however I would improve my CPU before doing so.

 

[Noodle Boy]

Firstly there arent that many people who are prepared to drop $1000 on a cpu alone.....duh

Secondly, the amount that a person has to pay to build a decent pc is already pushing it. For the price of a PPU you could buy a ps3 or xbox 360 which already has PPU's integrated into it (may be wrong about this......or is it that one of the cpus can act like a PPU). I dont know about other people but the new consoles become more attractive in light of this sort of pricing

The point is why go down the PPU route when multi core cpus are on the verge of becoming main stream. Cant you achieve the same thing by designating physics calculations to one of the cpu cores?

THE PS3 has cell and the X360 has 3 cpus. I would assume one of the CPUs are assigned to do physics tasks.

About the PPU vs. the CPU, I read something (no link sorry) about CPUs only being able to handle a few hundred simultaneous physics calculations, whereas a PPU and handle several thousand. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Farseer]

I wonder if any of these posters even understand what they are talking about? Yes, the price is high, but that is to be expected for any first gen product. They may have even used an arbitrarily higher price point to just gauge consumer reaction, and may lower the price by the time the retail product hits store shelves.

Anyway, about the physics support in upcoming games…AGEIA owns the NovodeX API, which is a basically a software based physics engine. A lot of current developers are using NovodeX…Unreal Engince 3 is using it (thus all UE3 games will support it). You can go to AGEIA’s website to see a some upcoming games that use NovodeX. The PS3 and some 360 games are using NovodeX. So, what does that mean? Well, these games will have physics pretty much like Half-Life 2 does now (HL2 uses the Havoc physics API). Anyway, the point is that any game that uses NovodeX will automatically take advantage of a PPU if one is detected. You won’t need a special version of the game, no patches, etc. Just like with a graphics card, if your card doesn’t support ShaderModel3.0 then the game API will make a substitution.

I guess the point is that AGEIA is not selling just a PPU, but also a full-fledged physics API THAT CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PPU IF ONE IS AVAILABLE! I'm not trying to advocate that the PPU will be the next must have, but it appears to me that this company has at least done their homework as far as supporting the product goes.

Also, I would encourage anyone to download the Rocket Demo from their website. The demo has like 30 different physics demos to play around with. It’s a great time waster at work. Also, someone said they should make the API free. Well, I don’t know if it is or not, but you can download the SDK if you register. There are also several datasheets for reference.

 

[Farseer]

Here is a quote from the AGEIA website:

"We've been using the NovodeX Physics SDK with the Unreal Engine 3 for the past year and it has added some awesome effects. It’s going to be exciting to see what NovodeX can do once the PhysX chip hits the market."

Tim Sweeney,
Founder and lead programmer Epic Games

 

[defiant]

I wonder if any of these posters even understand what they are talking about? Yes, the price is high, but that is to be expected for any first gen product. They may have even used an arbitrarily higher price point to just gauge consumer reaction, and may lower the price by the time the retail product hits store shelves.

And to be expected from any second gen product, third gen product, 4th gen product, etc.....
By your logic the new generation video cards should be selling at a cheaper price than what the first generation sold for. But thats not the case.....is it now.

 

[SlamDunk]

I'm very excited about AGEIA's PPU and I've been collecting the PhysX stuff to a dedicated page for some time now...

http://personal.inet.fi/atk/kjh2348fs/ageia_physx.html

 

[Drakensoul]

And to be expected from any second gen product, third gen product, 4th gen product, etc.....
By your logic the new generation video cards should be selling at a cheaper price than what the first generation sold for. But thats not the case.....is it now.

Yes, it is. The first-generation GPUs were all expensive (the one or two that existed... EDGE?); there were no budget solutions. Now, we have new [budget] products being released which are far less expensive and still far more powerful than the first-generation GPU was. Further generations allow for a budget segment, and technology improvements allow for that budget segment to still have an improving product.

 

[Shakezilla]

ummm heres an idea, couldnt programmers make patches for game to support this after they are released?
Didnt farcry do this with 64-bit processors?


I think if porgrammers could add it on as a patch later if they dont have time when they release the game then the PPU could be a big hit.

Also somone said there has to be hardware before there will be software for it, so if peopel do start buying them games will start supporting them.

 

[BO(V)BZ]

UE3 supports Novodex out of the box? That is good news for them.

I'm not sure that everyone is fully realizing the extra work its going to take to add in all the objects ingame needed to really make this thing shine. Imagine how long it will take to design things such as real-time fire, deformable meshes, individual bricks for every wall. Now also imagine that you have to make a normal version of each for people that don't have that card. Furthermore, imagine that you are game dev under a deadline, looking for superfluous features to axe...what goes first? That extra polish you need to do to the AI, that anyone can take advantage of, or the highly detailed mega-physics that only people with one specific piece of hardware can run.

Let's be serious, how many of these does anyone here think that they'll sell? Maybe a million? Compare that to the number of PC's sold just last year - 174 million. So we can estimate that about 200 million PC's have the hardware to run games in any capacity pretty safely. Think Joe Publisher is going to push a feature that would require a hefty increase in the cost of the game, along with adding delays, for a feature he can at best hope that half a percent of his target audience has?

 

[Xipher]

UE3 supports Novodex out of the box? That is good news for them.

It doesn't support it, Epic Games has been using it for development of UE3 for a while now. EDIT: Think I will expand on this, you USE an API, you support hardware, and Novodex is the API (which they use and doesn't REQUIRE the hardware), but this does mean that any one who licenses UE3, and uses novodex, will be able to support the hardware (this will easily include Epics self developed games, like UT2007), just though I would clarify that, as I understand what your saying, just explaining why is it was a bit off.

Also

THE PS3 has cell and the X360 has 3 cpus. I would assume one of the CPUs are assigned to do physics tasks.

It took me a second time reading the specs to realize this as well, but the Xbox 360 is one CPU, Three cores, and something similar to Hyperthreading.

Three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each
Two hardware threads per core; six hardware threads total

I didn't notice the Core part in there myself the first time.

Edit: too add
The one thing thats different with Novodex, then API's like OpenGL and Direct3d, is they don't REQUIRE acceleration hardware at all, well, their are software implementations of OpenGL, like Mesa for Linux, but Novodex was originally implemented using software, and later aquired, and used as a basis to interface with the hardware. I personally would like to see this go the way of OpenGL (where it becomes an group of compainines working out the API that is implement using propriatary hardware) but I don't see that happening myself, I think right now they basicly have the market, and we will have to wait and see if any others decided to join the game, adding their own hardware and API.