Ageia PPU pricing announced

[bipolar]

The cards based on the new AGEIA PhysX processor will start sampling in Q3 2005, and when they appear in retail in Q4 their price is supposed to be between $249 and $299, according to X-bit labs report from E3 show in Los Angeles, California.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20050520034045.html

LOL. I would have paid $79=99, with a top end of $150 if it made a simply *amazing* difference in games. Not a chance I'm paying $250+

 

[bonkrowave]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20050520034045.html

LOL. I would have paid $79=99, with a top end of $150 if it made a simply *amazing* difference in games. Not a chance I'm paying $250+

I think this is a really stupid idea. I would have considered using this technology if it was added to graphics cards, but there is no chance in hell im going to shell out another 250+ for an expansion card. PC Hardware is becomming much too expensive. For a fraction of the cost, for components to upgrade my PC, I can buy a console, which is at least par with PC hardware. Looks like my gamming is going the way of the console.

 

[MeanieMan]

What a waste

 

[bboynitrous]

$250 bucks is out of the question for me. Dropping 400 bucks on a video card is enough, another 250-300 on a stupid physics processor is ridiculous. I'm waiting for one that seperates color and polygons for another 500-600 bucks. That should be fun too. Why don't they try to rip us off for that too?

 

[pistola]

I believe game physics is CPU intensive (could be wrong) therefore this card will take strain off of the cpu. It would be a good upgrade if you want better performance on older systems in games using physics. It would be cheaper than getting a new processor/mobo.

 

[Hate_Bot]

Ill wait and see if it makes a difrence in games

 

[defiant]

That is just fuckin insane, who in their right mind would drop another $300 just to play games. Im sorry but they are just trying to rip gamers off. And im sure that they get a nice kick back from developers that have licensed the right to take advantage of their technology. Hope they fall flat on their arse so that they realize that they cant rip off pc gamers. Its bad enough that video cards are nearly as expensive as every other component in a pc combined, now they want us to pay more just to have nicer physics.

Im sorry but this sort of shit just makes me angry. Surely developers will be able to use multicore cpus and hyper threading to basically achieve the same affects as these ppus?

 

[MeanieMan]

6800 Ultra = $500
+ retarded physics card so the grass waves faster = $300
= $800

6800 Ultra Express 512mb edition = $800


I don't know about anyone else. But I'd go for the 512mb video card. If this is a CPU thing, then $300 would make for a nice CPU upgrade.

 

[defiant]

I believe game physics is CPU intensive (could be wrong) therefore this card will take strain off of the cpu. It would be a good upgrade if you want better performance on older systems in games using physics. It would be cheaper than getting a new processor/mobo.

These PPU's are only helpful in games that have been specifically programmed to take advantage of them. Therefore its not helpful for you if you want to improve performance in the current generation of games. And in any event, by the time that games come out that take advantage of this you will need to upgrade your pc in any event, especially if you still have an agp based system. So therefore not only will you have to spring for a new cpu, m/board, memory, psu and vid card, you will also have to spend another fuckin $300 on a ppu.

Its a horrible thought but the new consoles are starting to look alot more attractive from a price perspective

 

[aringail]

I might be dating myself, but I seem to remember a time when people were up in arms over how stupid it was to put hardware acceleration in the video card. Remember the Voodoo 1? It was just an expansion board. You still needed another video card. Now we have video cards that are almost if not more powerfull than the CPU. And for the most part (Not workstation class machines) the 3d Accel is only used in games. So saying people won't buy it because it's only for games may or may not be true.

And I don't really think they are trying to rip off gamers. You know why? If you don't want the damn thing DON'T BUY IT! Games will still run without it.

I don't think this card is meant to only speed up existing games. I think it's to allow the developers to add more details, more particle effects, basically more eye-candy to the game without adversely affecting performance. They can simply leave alot of that stuff out when the card is not present.

Surely developers will be able to use multicore cpus and hyper threading to basically achieve the same affects as these ppus?

Any specialized processor can outperform a general purpose processor. Else all the graphics could be done on the CPU. Sure the physics can be done (and is currently being done) by the CPU, but just not to the level possible with a specialized processor.

In games there are a limited number of things that are REALLY intensive.
Rasterizing Graphics: Handled by the GPU
Mixing 3D sounds and music: Handled by the Soundcard (If you have a good one with EAX etc)
Math & Physics: The new PPU chips
AI: Oooohhhh now there's something that could benefit from a specialized processor

What I am waiting to see is if the XBox 3 or the PS4 has a built in PPU. I wouldn't count it out.

 

[spugnor]

What would be really interesting, is if this PPU gets tasked with something a little more worthy than just games. Theoretically, these could be used to soup up not just games, but scientific and engineering aps. If they can get that off the ground, then they might be able to sell enough of them to drop the price point.

But regardless, i'll probably get one when there are games that support it. Just freakin' because!

 

[Trepidati0n]

An the speculation fanatics have gone off the deepend AGAIN. Please go back to your regularly scheduled PS3/360/Rev threads and continue there.

1. There is a difference between retail and what we pay. Unless you enjoy going to BB and paying full retail. You go do that now...

2. The initial cards WILL be expensive. You see, there is this thing called NRE. It is the money you spend to develop the idea. The enthusiast will be the first ones to buy the cards and they WILL buy the cards. After they get some of their money back on the design...the costs WILL come down. How much was a 6800GT AGP when they first came out...how much are they now? Oops...forgot about that need to write pointless rant.

3. If the card provides a much more immersive experience...it is worth it to an enthusiast. The people who are bitching about the price are the same people who go "you such a f'ing moron for buying a FX process or and 6800 ultra's in SLI". Guess what...it isn't your money so STFU. Some people want the absolute best and they are willing to pay for it. so please take your broke ass and get out. Nobody says you HAVE to buy this card to play the game. No game will require this card/feature in the near future.

4. It doesn't belong on a GPU because it has nothing directly to do graphics. It has to deal with phyics. This card is still very nice for people who may want to do dynamic modelling.

I am actually quite happy with the initial pricing. Based upon typical business models this card should start coming out in the $50-$100 range in about two years after release. Does anybody here even remember how much good sound cards were when they first came out. I think I paid $300 for my first sound card....now I can get a fairly good one for $20!

So before you get your knickers stuck throughly up your ass....take a breath and look at the bigger picture.

-tReP

 

[MeanieMan]

1. There is a difference between retail and what we pay. Unless you enjoy going to BB and paying full retail. You go do that now...

2. The initial cards WILL be expensive. You see, there is this thing called NRE. It is the money you spend to develop the idea. The enthusiast will be the first ones to buy the cards and they WILL buy the cards. After they get some of their money back on the design...the costs WILL come down. How much was a 6800GT AGP when they first came out...how much are they now? Oops...forgot about that need to write pointless rant.
-tReP

The 6800 Ultra Express has a retail tag of $499. A year after release you can get one for $495. Great price drop.
The computer industry, especially the enthusiast end is not "normal." Still doesn't explain how companies feel the need to rip people off on every part.

 

[aringail]

Still doesn't explain how companies feel the need to rip people off on every part.

Well, they have to do this thing...it's called paying it's employees. I know it doesn't sound like much. But alot of people find it important.

BIG money gets spent on research. That is recouped by selling the high end cards. A little while after they come out with the high end cards they will probably come out with a cheaper version that supports a smaller chunk of the logic. 6600GT, Half the ATI line etc. It's how it works. Remember the days when Intel would sell fast chips at slower speeds just to meet a price point.

 

[bonkrowave]

The 6800 Ultra Express has a retail tag of $499. A year after release you can get one for $495. Great price drop.
The computer industry, especially the enthusiast end is not "normal." Still doesn't explain how companies feel the need to rip people off on every part.

QFT, when does a piece of PC hardware ever sell for less then MSRP ? When it is obsolete and 2-3 years old maybe, and the store selling it is just trying to get rid of stock.

There have been conflicting arguments concerning how people were up in arms about the graphics card when it first came to market, and then the same people making this argument say, don't buy it if you don't want to, games wont "need" it. My question to these people is ... how many games can you play without a graphics card nowadays ?

I have seen some pretty impressive physics implemented in HL2 amongst others. Physics engines are relatively new and the fact that they are working just fine without a PPU leads me to believe that PPU are infact another way to gouge the PC gamer.

A PPU would be much better suited to be a featured on a graphics card. The PPU has everything to do with graphics as it tells the computer where and how the 3D models, the graphics card renders, move and relate to the surrounding 3D environment.

 

[Trepidati0n]

The 6800 Ultra Express has a retail tag of $499. A year after release you can get one for $495. Great price drop.
The computer industry, especially the enthusiast end is not "normal." Still doesn't explain how companies feel the need to rip people off on every part.

I said GT AGP and you changed to to PCI ultra-express...but you changed the argument. And the reason the price is so high still is volume/demand. The initial 6800GT AGP's were selling at $500+ due to both high inital MSRP and demand. However you can get them in quantity for $300 if you look around. So in about a year we have seen a MSRP drop of 25% and a retail drop of 40%. That isn't chump change. I would be willing to bet by christmas we will be seeing 6800GTs for $250 on black friday.

They are not ripping you off. They are trying to generate the maximum profit they can for a item. This is called capitalism. If you don't like it...move to another country that is dictatorship or supports communism and have big pappa protect you. However you probably think a $50k BMW is a rip-off too

-tReP

 

[spugnor]

The 6800 Ultra Express has a retail tag of $499. A year after release you can get one for $495. Great price drop.
The computer industry, especially the enthusiast end is not "normal." Still doesn't explain how companies feel the need to rip people off on every part.

It's not really ripping you off. The thing is, those GPU's capable of going that speed are only a portion of any given batch of GPUs produced. Same way with CPUs, only some are tested and will go the full rated design speed. Of course, that doesn't mean that a company (like intel) won't mark down (or underclock) an otherwise perfectly fine CPU just to keep the prices up on the top end chips.

The real thing is, if people are buying them at the numbers the company selling them wants, they have no reason to lower the price. It's called business, and you can bet your ass you'd be doing it as well, if it was your decision.

 

[burningrave101]

I would never pay $250 for one. I'd pay $50-$100 if it did make the physics look alot better or it really improved performance or something but $250 is out of the question. Thats about as much as an X800XL or 6800GT right now. And none of the current generation games will be able to have any advantage from it ither.

 

[aringail]

A PPU would be much better suited to be a featured on a graphics card. The PPU has everything to do with graphics as it tells the computer where and how the 3D models, the graphics card renders, move and relate to the surrounding 3D environment.

Actually not exactly. Especially since the graphics card may or may not have the info it needs.

1) Most loose culling algorithms will not tell the GPU to draw an object if it is behind the user. So the graphics card usually doesn't even know it's there. So how could it perform physics on the object?

2) Building the graphics for the scene is one of the LAST steps in the process the physics is alot earlier in the pipeline.

3) Physics is part of the Game Logic, not the drawing logic. Physics is something that is worked at around 30fps timeframe (taken from old Quake logic) Graphics are drawn on the order of magnitude of 100fps. Graphics cards don't need the extra load

4) Now your graphics cards cost 900 bucks instead. And they produce twice as much heat. Oh and you are required to buy one because "Nobody" makes a card without it because everyone make a card with it.

 

[MeanieMan]

4) Now your graphics cards cost 900 bucks instead. And they produce twice as much heat. Oh and you are required to buy one because "Nobody" makes a card without it because everyone make a card with it.

Thats like saying Motherboards should cost $600-$700 because of the onboard video/lan/sound

 

[Trepidati0n]

Remember when the high-end (not enthusiast) level of cards crossed the $300 line, $400. People bitched like mad..but in the end they forked over the cash.

-tReP

 

[aringail]

Thats like saying Motherboards should cost $600-$700 because of the onboard video/lan/sound

Exactly...now just let me go buy stock in the MB companies.

Anyways, that's a very valid point. But for how long have MBs had built in video and sound. Only VSFF had them for awhile. None with hardware accel.

It's only a matter of time before M$ requires a PPU in order to make Clippy bounce properly in Office 2008 which you will have to pay 4 grand for.

 

[burningrave101]

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTExNjYwMTUzNjAyN1RkMWczNlNfMV8xX2wuanBn

 

[Trepidati0n]

Thats like saying Motherboards should cost $600-$700 because of the onboard video/lan/sound

At first MB with integrated sound/video/LAN were expensive and their costs dropped. It will take time. But again...people still believe they deserve everything right away with no effort and no cost. So would you rather NEVER see a physics card because it doesn't come below some preconceived number that you determined. OR would you rather actually see the card come into existance and then eventually drop to a price level good enough for you? Wait...640k ought to be good enogh for anybody. I remember when people paid $1000 for 1 MB of RAM.

-tReP

 

[bonkrowave]

At first MB with integrated sound/video/LAN were expensive and their costs dropped. It will take time. But again...people still believe they deserve everything right away with no effort and no cost. So would you rather NEVER see a physics card because it doesn't come below some preconceived number that you determined. OR would you rather actually see the card come into existance and then eventually drop to a price level good enough for you? Wait...640k ought to be good enogh for anybody. I remember when people paid $1000 for 1 MB of RAM.

-tReP

I would rather see a PPU brought to market when CPUs are so over burdened that they cannot do the physics calculations. This isn't the case right now tho. Like I said earlier my 2500+ CPU was able to handle HL2 plus the source physics engine just fine. My 2500+ is nowhere near top of the line, and if it can handle the current generation physics engines, well then ... what realy is the point of a PPU at this point in time?

Let the limits of current PC hardware dictate when and if a PPU is needed, not the fact that the marketing department thinks there is opportunity to make some coin.

 

[spugnor]

I find it humerous that the doubters in this thread don't remember thier computer hard ware history. Let's harken back to the halcyon days of the 286/386. The days before floating point math on the CPU. If you wanted to do floating point math, you either needed to code it (expensive in CPU cycles) or you needed a math co-processor. Which cost darn near what the CPU did, and required a motherboard that supported it or an add on card. Amazingly, they sold a crap load of them, because it made the computer seriously faster, but (like a PPU) required software written to take advantage of it.

Same exact thing happened with video cards. When hardware accelleration first came out it was very much a "nice to have", not a "have to have". Now, even bargain basement cards have some form of hardware accelleration.

The thing is, in every aspect of the modern computer, it's become very common to farm out as much of the CPU load as possible to ancilliary components. NCQ on harddrives for example. RAID controllers. Smart network cards.

I predict, that in a few years, a PPU will be as required as any of the other technologies i mentioned. Heck, i wouldn't be suprised if in a few years we didn't start seeing a type of PPU built into the motherboard chipset.

 

[aringail]

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?i...lNfMV8xX2wuanBn

Neat image, thanks.

My 2500+ is nowhere near top of the line, and if it can handle the current generation physics engines, well then ... what realy is the point of a PPU ?

It's not for existing games. It's for new games to add more content. The current games go through SO many hoops to make sure that they can fit the games into the existing hardware. One of the things that always suffers is physics. The Ageia works through a physics API. This API will simplify the process of putting real-life physics in games. I don't believe that it requires the PPU to be in the system. I think it has a software chunk as well. So in a sense they are also providing a way for games to use/not use the PPU, while still providing a way for companies to build good physics into their games.

 

[Trepidati0n]

I would rather see a PPU brought to market when CPUs are so over burdened that they cannot do the physics calculations. This isn't the case right now tho. Like I said earlier my 2500+ CPU was able to handle HL2 plus the source physics engine just fine. My 2500+ is nowhere near top of the line, and if it can handle the current generation physics engines, well then ... what realy is the point of a PPU at this point in time?

Let the limits of current PC hardware dictate when and if a PPU is needed, not the fact that the marketing department thinks there is opportunity to make some coin.

There isn't...but again think about the computer. Was there a need at the time for the first computer. A group of 5 engineers could actually outpace ENIAC when it first came out. So we should have never built the first computer? Somebody out there sees a potential use of this in the futre and is willing to invest the time and money to make it become reality.

Think about the first cellphones? Wait...sorry that would require a valid viewpont against your argument. The first "portable" cellphones were $1000's and were put in the trunk of a car. Then they got smaller and cheaper...now everybody can have a 1000 minutes, a nice flip-phone, and a camera for $40/month? Oh wait..did the price start there or is it here now? The same goes for your DLP TV you just got Bonko. Maybe you should return it because CRT's should be good enough and cheap enough. Wait...why do we need CRT's when we can just go to a live show with real people....blah. Does anybody get my pont. Just because there is no hot market now does not mean there will not be one in the near future.

-tReP

P.S. Doesn't that make SM3.0 in the geforece 6xxx series useless

 

[Steel Chicken]

they still havenot written software to take advantage of dual cores...

maybe in a year or so, ill reconsider

 

[aringail]

I find it humerous that the doubters in this thread don't remember thier computer hard ware history....

Amen to your whole post.

Also remember how a company believed that fill-rate was everything. The CPU could handle all of the Vertex calculations etc. How is 3Dfx doing these days? And that was before any of this Shader stuff came in.

 

[Jasonx82]

I'll Pay it just to have my E-Penis get oOOoo SO much bigger lol



On a serious Note, Games will run fine without it, you played pc games without one so far. Its just another choice(expensive choice) but a choice.. Anything that makes games look/run better I welcome. ( even though its kinda of a steep price rightt now)

 

[bonkrowave]

There isn't...but again think about the computer. Was there a need at the time for the first computer. A group of 5 engineers could actually outpace ENIAC when it first came out. So we should have never built the first computer? Somebody out there sees a potential use of this in the futre and is willing to invest the time and money to make it become reality.

Think about the first cellphones? Wait...sorry that would require a valid viewpont against your argument. The first "portable" cellphones were $1000's and were put in the trunk of a car. Then they got smaller and cheaper...now everybody can have a 1000 minutes, a nice flip-phone, and a camera for $40/month? Oh wait..did the price start there or is it here now? The same goes for your DLP TV you just got Bonko. Maybe you should return it because CRT's should be good enough and cheap enough. Wait...why do we need CRT's when we can just go to a live show with real people....blah. Does anybody get my pont. Just because there is no hot market now does not mean there will not be one in the near future.

-tReP

P.S. Doesn't that make SM3.0 in the geforece 6xxx series useless

Every single one of your examples illustrates a piece of hardware that was designed to fit a particular need. The need came into being because current technology was at a point where it could not handle what was being demanded of it.

PC gamming is not at the point where it cannot handle what is being demanded of it. Yet once again my 2500+ can easily handle the current top of the line physics engines that are present in todays games.

So I ask again ... why exactly do we need a PPU, when current cpus (not even top of the line) can handle the current physics engines?

 

[aringail]

Does anybody get my pont

I don't know what a "pont" is but I am sure I don't want it. (j/king)

But I do get your point. I am right there with you. It's a new tech, so it's expensive. If people like it then it will get cheaper.

Right now the Ageia doesn't have any competition. Wait till somebody else comes to market with a competing product. Then the prices will drop.

 

[aringail]

So I ask again ... why exactly do we need a PPU, when current cpus (not even top of the line) can handle the current physics engines?

Current physics engines suck. That's why

I keep saying this, so I'll say it again. It's not for the current games. It's to allow future games to move beyond the cheesy half-physics implementations they use now. I think if you would ask any serious game developer if they would like the ability to provide a more realistic experience to their players they would jump at the chance. They know what you are missing. This is not a product that somebody cooked up in their garage. Developers have been talking about a need for this since I first started following the scene back in 95-96.

 

[Brent_Justice]

I would rather see a PPU brought to market when CPUs are so over burdened that they cannot do the physics calculations. This isn't the case right now tho.

current CPUs are limiting physics in games, developers could do a whole lot more with physics in games if the power was there to do it

 

[bonkrowave]

current CPUs are limiting physics in games, developers could do a whole lot more with physics in games if the power was there to do it

Does anyone have any proof that current physics is CPU limited, because this runs contrary to the fact that the best physics engine out there performs without a hitch on a 2500+.

 

[Brent_Justice]

Does anyone have any proof that current physics is CPU limited, because this runs contrary to the fact that the best physics engine out there performs without a hitch on a 2500+.

of course current physics engines perform well on current hardware, that's what they've been designed around

but current hardware is limiting content developers capabilities

it would be like if 3D were run in software mode, that would limit what content developers could do with 3D in games

with 3d hardware acceleration they are able to take advantage of new things

same thing with a dedicated PPU, in theory they could take advantage of new things bringing gameplay to a whole new level with it

i'm excited about it because i know physics could be a whole lot better

i want real time dynamic displacement mapping in games for one thing

 

[deadrody]

Does anyone have any proof that current physics is CPU limited, because this runs contrary to the fact that the best physics engine out there performs without a hitch on a 2500+.

Does anyone have proof that current modes of transportation (circa 1900) are limited by dirt roads, because this runs contrary to the fact that the best horse and buggie out there performs without a hitch on a dirt or cobble-stone road.

 

[aringail]

Does anyone have any proof that current physics is CPU limited

It won't be. They use approximations to sort of give you the physics in a scene. And they limit the number of particles or exploding bits so you won't drop in frame rate. They know when a scene has to much going on. Like I said, physics is one of the parts of a game that gets the shaft when performance tuning starts.

 

[bonkrowave]

Does anyone have proof that current horse and buggies (1900) are limited by dirt roads, because this runs contrary to the fact that the best horse and buggie out there performs without a hitch on a dirt or cobble-stone road.

You are entirely wrong as horse and buggys were limited by the power of the horse, and the people riding the horse and buggy on the cobblestone road did not have a smooth ride. As such there was a need to develope something that could overcome these hurdles, because the technology at the time could not keep up with the need.

This is besides the point ... do you honestly think that
horse and buggy = in game PC physics ?
Do you honestly think that is a fair and valid comparisson.

Cause if you do I have a lighting addon card, an AI addon card, and a water ripple math processor card, that I am looking to sell.