Advice wanted on budget Sandy Bridge build

[DblClipTite]

I'm thinking about doing a budget Sandy Bridge Celeron build and I'd love some feedback on the parts I'm eyeing. Which motherboard to go with is the biggest question mark for me. First the standard questions, then some background info.

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc

I'm not concerned with gaming. I'm going to be running multiple applications simultaneously, such as Photoshop, MS Office, code editors, FTP client, mail client, and one or more web browsers with numerous windows and tabs.

2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?

(Was "Shoestring") Update: $450 max (including everything except OS), preferably less if it doesn't require really bad sacrifices. I don't necessarily need the best of any given thing. I'd be happy with decent, servicable stuff that will do the trick and keep the budget lower. I would like to have a decent amount of upgrade potential in the future when I can afford to spend more though.

3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.

New England, US.

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.

Motherboard, CPU, RAM, graphics, maybe case and / or power supply.

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.

LG SATA optical drive.

Western Digital SATA hard drive.

Perhaps Thermaltake Silent Purepower W0014RU 480W ATX12V Active PFC Power Supply. I thought I'd be able to use this if I cannibalized my current machine, but I've been doing some reading and now I'm not so sure about that since it's a 20-pin / 4-pin job. Would I be able to get away with using this, or no?

Perhaps COOLER MASTER Praetorian PAC-T01-E1 case.

6) Will you be overclocking?

Not now, maybe in the future.

7) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?

Currently 20" Dell 2007WFP LCD 1680x1050.

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?

ASAP.

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video? etc.

USB 3.0, SATA III.

I could take or leave Intel SRT.

I'm hoping that the chipset I get will end up supporting Ivy Bridge.

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?

Windows 7 sucks, so I'm planning to be running XP Home or Pro 32-bit, and unfortunately stuck with its memory limitations. You don't need to factor OS into the budget.


****************************************


I was planning on using the Sandy Bridge integrated graphics and saving a few bucks. But I don't want to limit my ability to jack up the power of the machine in the future by going with an H67 chipset, and I'm not very impressed with the number of newegg ratings and averages on Z68 motherboards.

So now I'm thinking of going with a P67 motherboard and dirt cheap graphics card. The P67's tend to have more newegg ratings to go on, I guess because they've been out longer, and the average ratings generally seem to be a bit better than the Z68's.

My main concern with graphics is that I'd like for the graphics hardware to handle as much content such as Flash and video playback (especially web video) as possible and prevent the CPU from getting bogged down with that stuff.


What do you guys think of these parts (w/ current NewEgg prices):

Motherboard: MSI P67A-G45 ($115 after MIR) ; ASRock P67 EXTREME4 ($150 after MIR)

CPU: Celeron G530 ($57)

Graphics: SAPPHIRE 100292DDR3L Radeon HD 5450 ($25 after MIR) ; HIS H545H1G Radeon HD 5450 ($30 after MIR)

RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB DDR3 1333

Power supply: If I need a new power supply, do I need an EPS12V, or just any ATX12V that has a 24-pin (or 20+4 pin) and 8-pin (or 4+4 pin) connector? How much wattage do I really need? There are a number of brands of >= 430W units on newegg that are about $50 or less and have good average ratings, how do these brands compare?:

Antec EarthWatts Green EA-430D

RAIDMAX HYBRID 2 RX-530SS 530W

OCZ Fatal1ty 550W

OCZ ModXStream Pro 500W

Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W

COOLER MASTER Elite 460 RS-460-PSAR-J3 460W

COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power Plus RS500-PCARD3-US 500W


Thanks!

 

[tiraides]

Define "shoestring." What's the most that you're willing to spend on parts?

Why are you considering the Celeron? Is it because of the low price? Its (comparatively) meager power usage? Is it something else?

You probably won't be able to reuse your power supply, especially if it's over three years old. Power supplies degrade in quality and maximum output over time, and they degrade even further faster if they were under heavy use (if not constantly). Plus, your old Thermaltake PSU wasn't the best quality PSU at the time, so I would be surprised if it could consistently run over 300 watts today. (Out of your alternative "choices," I only like the Antec EA-430D.)

Your Praetorian case uses 80mm fans that won't be very effective against the heat produced by modern systems. Unless you're willing (and are able to) mod the front and rear of the case to support 120mm fans, you may want to consider buying a new case.

But I can't really make any recommendations unless I have a budget limit. That limit helps us determine what parts you can afford and what (we believe) you should spend your money on.

 

[Dangman]

In addition to what Tiraides said:

I'm hoping that the chipset I get will end up supporting Ivy Bridge.

Unfortunately, the current scuttlebutt is that every single P67, H67, or Z68 mobo out now may not actually support Ivy Bridge CPUs. So basically no guarantee whatsoever the mobo you're getting today will support Ivy Bridge.

Windows 7 sucks, so I'm planning to be running XP Home or Pro 32-bit, and unfortunately stuck with its memory limitations.

I'm sorry but this sounds strange to me. How exactly does Windows 7 suck? Have you tried Windows 7 on modern hardware?

Power supply: If I need a new power supply, do I need an EPS12V, or just any ATX12V that has a 24-pin (or 20+4 pin) and 8-pin (or 4+4 pin) connector?

The biggest difference between a EPS12V and regular ATX12V specs is that the EPS12V requires an extra 4+4 or 8 PIN CPU connector in addtion to the 4+4 or 8Pin CPU connector that ATX12V has. So either one will work for you.

How much wattage do I really need? There are a number of brands of >= 430W units on newegg that are about $50 or less and have good average ratings, how do these brands compare?:

Antec EarthWatts Green EA-430D

RAIDMAX HYBRID 2 RX-530SS 530W

OCZ Fatal1ty 550W

OCZ ModXStream Pro 500W

Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W

COOLER MASTER Elite 460 RS-460-PSAR-J3 460W

COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power Plus RS500-PCARD3-US 500W


Thanks!

None of those PSUs are good for the money. The EA-430D is a good PSU and probably the one I'd buy out of that list but I wouldn't buy it if I had wider range of slection. Like Tiraides, I'm gonna hold off any recommendations until a definitive budget has been stated.

 

[DblClipTite]

Why are you considering the Celeron? Is it because of the low price?

Yes, low price. I expect its performance to be adequate for now, and I'll have plenty of upgrade potential with LGA1155 (right?).

You probably won't be able to reuse your power supply, especially if it's over three years old. Power supplies degrade in quality and maximum output over time, and they degrade even further faster if they were under heavy use (if not constantly).

Oh, ok. This power supply has been in use for 6 years, with the computer on almost constantly.

Plus, your old Thermaltake PSU wasn't the best quality PSU at the time, so I would be surprised if it could consistently run over 300 watts today.

Was it decent?

(Out of your alternative "choices," I only like the Antec EA-430D.)

Ok. Any particular reason (if it's worth getting into)?

Your Praetorian case uses 80mm fans that won't be very effective against the heat produced by modern systems.

Oh, ok, didn't realize that.

Unless you're willing (and are able to) mod the front and rear of the case to support 120mm fans, you may want to consider buying a new case.

No, I'm not willing (I guess not able either, since I don't even know what it would involve). So I guess I'll have to plan for a new case.

Unfortunately, the current scuttlebutt is that every single P67, H67, or Z68 mobo out now may not actually support Ivy Bridge CPUs. So basically no guarantee whatsoever the mobo you're getting today will support Ivy Bridge.

Oh, ok, thanks for that info. That would be lame, but I wouldn't feel too bad if none of them did. If I knew that P67 wouldn't and Z68 would, that might sway me to go with the Z68 though.

Have you tried Windows 7 on modern hardware?

Yes.

I'm sorry but this sounds strange to me. How exactly does Windows 7 suck?

Well, for starters they ruined the taskbar. I can't get past that. I'm not interested in grouping Windows by application and having to click multiple times to get to a particular Window. And even with as much of that stuff disabled as possible, the closest I've been able to get the taskbar in Windows 7 to resemble the XP one, the tiles don't line up in equal width columns anymore; it's a mess.

The biggest difference between a EPS12V and regular ATX12V specs is that the EPS12V requires an extra 4+4 or 8 PIN CPU connector in addtion to the 4+4 or 8Pin CPU connector that ATX12V has. So either one will work for you.

Ok, thanks for educating me on that. You're talking about modern ATX12V, right? Because Older ATX12V PSUs only have 20-pin / 4-pin connectors, correct? E.g. my old Thermaltake is ATX12V.

None of those PSUs are good for the money.

Ok. As before, any particular reason (if it's worth getting into)?


tiraides, Danny Bui, thank you both, I really appreciate your insight and help with this. I've updated my post with a specific budget.

 

[tonytnnt]

You make it sound like you're planning on overclocking that Celeron, which isn't really possible. Intel's k series chips (2500k and 2600k) are the only two multiplier unlocked Sandy Bridge chips. And FSB overclocking will get you about 5MHz if you're lucky, so maybe 150Mhz higher CPU clock speed. Therefore, a P67 motherboard is a poor choice with a Celeron. Either save your money and get an H67 or a cheap Z68 board. I would suggest an H67 for what you've described though.

Also, are you within driving distance of the Microcenter in Cambridge, MA? They have a lot of good CPU/motherboard deals.

 

[DblClipTite]

Thanks for the feedback tonytnnt. I'm not planning on overclocking the Celeron. I'm on a tight budget right now, which is why I'm going for the Celeron (which I think will be ok for now), but my understanding is that with LGA1155 I could move up to a much more powerful CPU later, and that with a P67 or Z68 chipset and the right CPU, I'd be able to overclock it to squeeze even more performance out of this build if I really want. Last time I got a computer I got screwed with a dead-end socket and processor generation (P4 on socket 478). I'd like to have a brighter future this time, especially in terms of the motherboard.

Also, are you within driving distance of the Microcenter in Cambridge, MA? They have a lot of good CPU/motherboard deals.

Yeah, it would be 2-3 hours of driving round trip. Are the deals good enough vs. newegg prices for that to be worth it?

 

[Dangman]

Yes, low price. I expect its performance to be adequate for now, and I'll have plenty of upgrade potential with LGA1155 (right?).

Not really much upgrade potential with LGA1155 as noted earlier: Ivy Bridge isn't guaranteed to work current LGA 1155 mobos. In addition, the new Sandy Bridge-E CPUs uses the LGA 2011 socket. In 2013, Intel is set to release a new CPU altogther which will more than likely not be compatible with any current Intel socket.

All in all, from what we know now, the only CPUs you can upgrade from that Celeron are the Sandy Bridge Core i5 and Core i7 CPUs that have been released this year.

Thats why I generally don't factor in future CPU upgrades around here: It's never guaranteed.

Was it decent?

No. I'm surprised it lasted this long without damaging your hardware.

Well, for starters they ruined the taskbar. I can't get past that. I'm not interested in grouping Windows by application and having to click multiple times to get to a particular Window. And even with as much of that stuff disabled as possible, the closest I've been able to get the taskbar in Windows 7 to resemble the XP one, the tiles don't line up in equal width columns anymore; it's a mess.

Ok.... well then good luck to ya. Seems a tad waste of that hardware just using Windows XP on it.

Ok, thanks for educating me on that. You're talking about modern ATX12V, right? Because Older ATX12V PSUs only have 20-pin / 4-pin connectors, correct? E.g. my old Thermaltake is ATX12V.

Yes, I'm talking about the latest ATX12V v2.x specifcations, not the old ATX12V v1.x that your Thermaltake.

Ok. As before, any particular reason (if it's worth getting into)?

Meh, I'm bored:

Antec EarthWatts Green EA-430D

Probably the best one of the list because it's the PSU least likely to kill your PC. Its quality is far above the other PSUs too. Not to mention it can actually provide the power it's rated for. Every PSU listed below this Antec cannot provide their rated power without harming the PC.

RAIDMAX HYBRID 2 RX-530SS 530W

Not capable of its 530W. Very low quality.

OCZ Fatal1ty 550W

There are significantly better quality PSUs for the money.

OCZ ModXStream Pro 500W

Ok-isk design. But the problem is that once you drop the modular cables, that PSU is basically only worth like $40. There are significantly better quality PSUs at both the $40 and $70 price range that PSU in. Only reason to get this PSU if you want a cheap modular PSU capable of harming your PC.

Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W

HEC made so quality is more than likely low. No info on how much amperage it has on the +12V rail. Specs on the TT's website show that it exceeds the ATX12V specifications on the +3.3V and +5V. So TT is already telling you that PSU is of low quality.

COOLER MASTER Elite 460 RS-460-PSAR-J3 460W

Can only provide 430W under ideal conditions:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/arti...-460-W-RS-460-PMSR-A3-Power-Supply-Review/550

COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power Plus RS500-PCARD3-US 500W

Shitty efficiency nor is it capable of providing its rated wattage without exceeding ATX12V specifcations:
http://hardocp.com/article/2009/02/16/entry_level_power_supply_roundup/2

The problem with all those PSUs is that there are often better quality PSUs for not that much more:
$45 - Antec NEO ECO 400C 400W PSU
$58 - Antec NEO ECO 520C 520W PSU
$70 - Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W PSU

Yeah, it would be 2-3 hours of driving round trip. Are the deals good enough vs. newegg prices for that to be worth it?

No.

 

[E4g1e]

Well, for starters they ruined the taskbar. I can't get past that. I'm not interested in grouping Windows by application and having to click multiple times to get to a particular Window. And even with as much of that stuff disabled as possible, the closest I've been able to get the taskbar in Windows 7 to resemble the XP one, the tiles don't line up in equal width columns anymore; it's a mess.

You will have to get used to it, sooner or later:

Support for Windows XP is set to be discontinued in less than three years. This means that right now, XP is on life support. And when XP is taken off life support in mid-2014, there will be no new security fixes at all whatsoever for that OS - and that will leave your XP sysyem extremely vulnerable to hacks and malware. And some of those outside hacks and malware could result in those people behind the hacks and malware stealing all of your vital information such as your passwords and financial information.

So, if you are to continue using XP, you might as well prepare to permanently disconnect your system from the Internet.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

You will have to get used to it, sooner or later:

Support for Windows XP is set to be discontinued in less than three years. This means that right now, XP is on life support. And when XP is taken off life support in mid-2014, there will be no new security fixes at all whatsoever for that OS - and that will leave your XP sysyem extremely vulnerable to hacks and malware. And some of those outside hacks and malware could result in those people behind the hacks and malware stealing all of your vital information such as your passwords and financial information.

So, if you are to continue using XP, you might as well prepare to permanently disconnect your system from the Internet.

Not really, Windows isn't the only operating system.

With that being said, I loved Windows XP so much that it took me forever to break away from it. I refused to get Vista, but once I started using W7 I wanted to slap myself in the face for waiting so long.

 

[tonytnnt]

Yeah, it would be 2-3 hours of driving round trip. Are the deals good enough vs. newegg prices for that to be worth it?

Not unless you were already in the area for another reason.

 

[DblClipTite]

Not really much upgrade potential with LGA1155 as noted earlier: Ivy Bridge isn't guaranteed to work current LGA 1155 mobos. In addition, the new Sandy Bridge-E CPUs uses the LGA 2011 socket.

Understood. This probably comes down to our interpretation of "plenty" or "much". What I mean is that I think the G530 will be satisfactory for now. So going from that to the highest end CPU that LGA1155 tops out at would be a big upgrade, no? Especially if I get that CPU when it drops to a fraction of its current price. And especially if I can overclock that CPU to squeeze more performance out of it. Am I way off?

I'm not willing to wait for anything, such as Ivy Bridge or Sandy Bridge-E, at this point, and I'm guessing Sandy Bridge-E would be prohibitively expensive for me anyway.

In 2013, Intel is set to release a new CPU altogther which will more than likely not be compatible with any current Intel socket.

Yeah, that would be lame, but of course nothing I can do about it. Except this time I'm trying to get up and running with a RETAIL Windows license instead of OEM so I don't get trapped again with another dead-end motherboard that my Windows license is tied to. At least then I'd have the option to upgrade to a new motherboard / socket without screwing my Windows license.

No. I'm surprised it lasted this long without damaging your hardware.

Wow, ok. Would it be really obvious if it damaged the hardware, like it would catch on fire or fail completely, or could it damage the hardware such that the performance (e.g. of the CPU) would be degraded, but it would keep working?

Ok.... well then good luck to ya. Seems a tad waste of that hardware just using Windows XP on it.

My main concern is just getting Windows XP running more smoothly so that I'm not currently slowed down by the hardware. I'd of course like to have the option to upgrade to a newer version of Windows with good performance. But I don't see much reason to be hopeful about Windows. It seems they're determined to continue dumbing down Windows to appeal to the "consumer" demographic, to the detriment of people trying to use a computer to work effectively.

Yes, I'm talking about the latest ATX12V v2.x specifcations, not the old ATX12V v1.x that your Thermaltake.

Ok, thanks.

Meh, I'm bored:

Ok, thanks, I appreciate the insight.

Probably the best one of the list because it's the PSU least likely to kill your PC. Its quality is far above the other PSUs too. Not to mention it can actually provide the power it's rated for. Every PSU listed below this Antec cannot provide their rated power without harming the PC.

That's a real practical concern? I'm sorry, I don't know much about how this hardware works. Would the parts I'm going to be using and the way I'm going to be using the computer require the PSU to provide its rated power?

HEC made so quality is more than likely low

So it's made by another company and just branded Thermaltake?

The problem with all those PSUs is that there are often better quality PSUs for not that much more:

How would one go about evaluating the quality of a PSU, or how are you able to do it? I would have no idea what to go on, other than the ratings.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand how I would be able to figure out what is or isn't a good PSU:

Is there some kind of rational explanation for why the Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W (for example) would have a higher average rating from 32x as many reviews as the Antec NEO ECO 400C 400W , if the Antec is so much higher quality? This is true with others, not just the Thermaltake. I suppose some of that could be due to marketing and / or sales promotions, but still.

No.

Ok, thanks, that's what I figured.

You will have to get used to it, sooner or later:

I agree, I will eventually have to figure something else out. But why would I suffer with Windows 7+ for the next 3 years because Windows XP is going to run out of road then? And that's assuming that MS is actually able to bully / force enough people off of XP to actually pull the plug on it then. Haven't they already threatened to do that several times and had to back off?

So, if you are to continue using XP, you might as well prepare to permanently disconnect your system from the Internet.

Yeah, I guess if I don't figure something else out in the next 3 years I'll have to.

Not unless you were already in the area for another reason.

Ok, thanks for the suggestion.


Sooo...how bout that MSI P67A-G45? Is that (awesome | a P.O.S.) or what?

 

[E4g1e]

Wow, ok. Would it be really obvious if it damaged the hardware, like it would catch on fire or fail completely, or could it damage the hardware such that the performance (e.g. of the CPU) would be degraded, but it would keep working?

Some of the components are affected by poor DC output quality (e.g. out-of-spec ripple). In fact, these components could fail completely without even catching fire or exploding.

So it's made by another company and just branded Thermaltake?

Yes. In fact, the company-branded TR2 line simply uses a budget "off-the-shelf" PSU design from another manufacturer (usually HEC), in this case. Thermaltake does design some modifications in its Toughpower series PSUs - but then subcontracts the designs out to CWT for manufacture (or put it this way, CWT takes a known good platform such as the DSG and then modifies the design to Thermaltake's design spec).

Is there some kind of rational explanation for why the Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W (for example) would have a higher average rating from 32x as many reviews as the Antec NEO ECO 400C 400W , if the Antec is so much higher quality? This is true with others, not just the Thermaltake. I suppose some of that could be due to marketing and / or sales promotions, but still.

Ok, many of those reviewers at Newegg have absolutely no reference whatsoever, or that their only past experience with PSUs being of really shitty ones such as Powmax or Diablotek (or old came-with-the-prebuilt-PC PSUs of a few years ago). There is a professional review of the TR2 W0070RUC that clearly stated that it cannot output its rated 430W without burning out. In fact, its real output is only about 270W. Even the circuit board that's inside that TR2 430W unit clearly indicated that the PSU was supposed to be only a 300W unit.

 

[Dangman]

Understood. This probably comes down to our interpretation of "plenty" or "much". What I mean is that I think the G530 will be satisfactory for now. So going from that to the highest end CPU that LGA1155 tops out at would be a big upgrade, no? Especially if I get that CPU when it drops to a fraction of its current price. And especially if I can overclock that CPU to squeeze more performance out of it. Am I way off?

A little off: Intel just introduces faster CPUs at the same price as their older CPUs without dropping the price on the older CPUs. Case in point: Look at the Core i5 760's price. It's currently $210 or the same price it's been since it was first released in July of 2010. It's been superceded by the faster Core i5 2500 and Core i5 2500K at $200 and $220 respectively.

So in other words, you're still gonna be paying the same price for any Core i5 or i7 CPU whether you buy it today or eight months from now. In addition, there's always the possiblity that a new CPU + mobo might be more cost-effective than just buying a new CPU with the release of AMD's new CPus.

Wow, ok. Would it be really obvious if it damaged the hardware, like it would catch on fire or fail completely, or could it damage the hardware such that the performance (e.g. of the CPU) would be degraded, but it would keep working?

You'd have complete failures, instability issues, smoke, etc. Performance itself shouldn't be degraded.

That's a real practical concern? I'm sorry, I don't know much about how this hardware works. Would the parts I'm going to be using and the way I'm going to be using the computer require the PSU to provide its rated power?

Yes. Because if a PSU can't provide its rated power, then it's A) a waste of your money since you're paying for wattage that you can't use without killing your PC and B) PSUs that can't provide their rated wattage tend to be of lower quality and have a higher chance of harming the PC even when it's powering it within limits.

So it's made by another company and just branded Thermaltake?

Yes. But note that virtually every PSU company does this. Sometimes even from multiple manufacturers at the same time. E4g1e's example of Thermaltake using HEC for their low budget brands and CWT for their higher-end brand is a good example. The Antec you listed in that list is made by Delta whereas the Antec PSUs I listed are made by Seasonic.

How would one go about evaluating the quality of a PSU, or how are you able to do it? I would have no idea what to go on, other than the ratings.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand how I would be able to figure out what is or isn't a good PSU:

You basically read proper PSU reviews as well as forums that have people who are experts when it comes to PSUs. Here's a list of the current websites that actually do proper PSU reviews and what exatcly makes a PSU review a proper PSU review:
http://www.overclock.net/power-supplies/738097-psu-review-database.html

Is there some kind of rational explanation for why the Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC 430W (for example) would have a higher average rating from 32x as many reviews as the Antec NEO ECO 400C 400W , if the Antec is so much higher quality? This is true with others, not just the Thermaltake. I suppose some of that could be due to marketing and / or sales promotions, but still.

As E4g1e pointed out: They're basically written by people who don't know anything about power supplies. They basically chose that PSU based on price and ignorance. When it comes to Newegg PSU reviews, it's akin to this: Who would you trust more to diagnose you: One doctor with several years of medical study and experience or 32 kindergartners?

Power supplies requires a lot more expertise and equipment to determine whether or not they're actually good. Those two factors are something that a majority of PC enthusiasts, from casual to the extreme, don't have.

So Newegg user ignorance and cheapness are two reasons. The other reasons include there's a good marketing campaign, other ignorant users informing other ignorant users, and the fact that Thermaltake PSU has been out on the market for 6+ years. The Antec PSU you listed has only been out for one year. Not to mention that TT PSU tends to show up a lot in computer hardware and electronics stores like Best Buy, Fry's, and Microcenter, so there's gonna be user awareness.

Sooo...how bout that MSI P67A-G45? Is that (awesome | a P.O.S.) or what?

It's a good motherboard.

 

[DblClipTite]

Some of the components are affected by poor DC output quality (e.g. out-of-spec ripple). In fact, these components could fail completely without even catching fire or exploding.

You'd have complete failures, instability issues, smoke, etc. Performance itself shouldn't be degraded.

Well for this being such a P.O.S. PSU I guess I've been pretty lucky, because nothing has ever smoked, caught on fire, or failed, and this computer has run almost all the time for 6 years.

Yes. In fact, the company-branded TR2 line simply uses a budget "off-the-shelf" PSU design from another manufacturer (usually HEC), in this case.

Ok, many of those reviewers at Newegg have absolutely no reference whatsoever, or that their only past experience with PSUs being of really shitty ones such as Powmax or Diablotek

Hmm, ok.

A little off: Intel just introduces faster CPUs at the same price as their older CPUs without dropping the price on the older CPUs. Case in point: Look at the Core i5 760's price. It's currently $210 or the same price it's been since it was first released in July of 2010. It's been superceded by the faster Core i5 2500 and Core i5 2500K at $200 and $220 respectively.

Hmm, yeah, I see your point. I guess to get a good price I'd have to hope to get a good deal on a used one then. Even so, if I had to pay the same price as when the chip came out, a high-end LGA1155 CPU would still be a big upgrade to the G530, right?

In addition, there's always the possiblity that a new CPU + mobo might be more cost-effective than just buying a new CPU with the release of AMD's new CPus.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, are you saying that buying an AM3+ / Bulldozer might be more cost effective than upgrading the CPU on LGA1155?

Yes. Because if a PSU can't provide its rated power, then it's A) a waste of your money since you're paying for wattage that you can't use without killing your PC and B) PSUs that can't provide their rated wattage tend to be of lower quality and have a higher chance of harming the PC even when it's powering it within limits.

If prices are comparable for higher quality units, then I can see A. I can see B -- wouldn't want the PSU frying other stuff.

Yes. But note that virtually every PSU company does this. Sometimes even from multiple manufacturers at the same time. E4g1e's example of Thermaltake using HEC for their low budget brands and CWT for their higher-end brand is a good example. The Antec you listed in that list is made by Delta whereas the Antec PSUs I listed are made by Seasonic.

Ok, so in and of itself it sounds like that is pretty irrelevant and important part is who the actual mfg. is, not that it isn't the company it's branded as.

You basically read proper PSU reviews as well as forums that have people who are experts when it comes to PSUs. Here's a list of the current websites that actually do proper PSU reviews and what exatcly makes a PSU review a proper PSU review:

Thanks for the explanation and link. Is it pretty quick and easy to choose a high quality PSU that way by finding a good review of a unit at the price point I'm looking for? I really can't afford to spend the time researching individual components like PSU in detail and reading reviews, and that goes x10 if I had to do it for every component. Do you feel that PSUs in particular require this level of care in selection, or all components of a build?

This whole process of researching the current state of hardware and choosing components to build a new machine is really just a huge nuisance for me that is standing in the way of me getting useful work done. The last time I built a computer I got a lot more screwed by the socket and CPU than the Thermaltake PSU.

As E4g1e pointed out: They're basically written by people who don't know anything about power supplies. They basically chose that PSU based on price and ignorance.

Hmm, that sucks.

When it comes to Newegg PSU reviews, it's akin to this: Who would you trust more to diagnose you: One doctor with several years of medical study and experience or 32 kindergartners?

Based on the doctors I've dealt with, I'd try my luck with the kindergartners. At least they probably wouldn't make me pay through the nose for condescension, flaky advice, and poor results.

Power supplies requires a lot more expertise and equipment to determine whether or not they're actually good. Those two factors are something that a majority of PC enthusiasts, from casual to the extreme, don't have.

Is that more expertise than the enthusiasts have, or more expertise than other components require?

So Newegg user ignorance and cheapness are two reasons. The other reasons include there's a good marketing campaign, other ignorant users informing other ignorant users...Not to mention that TT PSU tends to show up a lot in computer hardware and electronics stores like Best Buy, Fry's, and Microcenter, so there's gonna be user awareness.

Ok.

and the fact that Thermaltake PSU has been out on the market for 6+ years.

Good point, that's a really obvious factor that I obviously overlooked. I didn't notice that the Thermaltake doesn't even have an 8-pin or 4+4 pin connector, so that was actually a terrible example on my part.

It's a good motherboard.

Ok, thanks. I thought that was the main thing I needed to nail down, but now it sounds like maybe I'm in way over my head and this would take a lot longer than I had in mind to figure out a good build. *sigh*

 

[E4g1e]

Based on the doctors I've dealt with, I'd try my luck with the kindergartners. At least they probably wouldn't make me pay through the nose for condescension, flaky advice, and poor results.

Actually, kindergartners these days are thieves. The problem with those reviews on Newegg are not just the lack of experience and the lack of PSU references, but also due to the fact that many of them are running systems that consume less than 100 watts total from the PSU even at full load. And based on that, they then declare a given reviewed PSU as "good enough" when it clearly isn't. In fact, I had purchased a 430W Thermaltake TR2 a while ago and then returned it after experiencing annoying stability issues with a Core 2 Duo system. The PSU was ultimately replaced with a 380W Antec EarthWatts Green, and all is running smoothly again. And had I continued to use that TR2 430 for much longer on that system, the system would have been damaged badly enough to require me to pay more than $400 just to repair that system (by purchasing replacement parts). And that $400+ is more than that entire Core 2 Duo system is actually worth.

And the Thermaltake TR2 430W has been revised several times, but the fact remains that it was first introduced when Thermaltake was still selling expensive PSUs with obviously false (overinflated) wattage ratings. Indeed, Thermaltake kept it in distribution because it was a popular seller, however crappy in quality and performance it really is/was. But the truth remains that Thermaltake (or whomever was running things over there at the time it was introduced) took a budget off-the-shelf 300W HEC PSU and slapped a highfalutin 430W rating on the PSU.

 

[tonytnnt]

Sooo...how bout that MSI P67A-G45? Is that (awesome | a P.O.S.) or what?

I like my P67A-G45.

Also, I use XP every day at work. And then I come home to Windows 7. And it just reminds me of how much of a dog XP really is. It was great when it came out, but it should have been put out to pasture a long time ago.

PSUs are so tricky because they're not as standardized as CPUs, motherboards, and GPUs. You would think they are, but because watts are the standard people look for, manufacturers will fudge and not supply enough amps on the 12 v rail, which is really where you need it in a modern system. It would be great if motherboards just did the conversion from 12 v to 3.3 and 5v on the board (like how Google's bespoke servers are setup) but they don't, so you need to look to people with a lot of electrical experience to help figure out what's junk. Jonnyguru, HardOCP, and others included on the link Danny provided are great resources. They have the right equipment to figure this stuff out.

 

[Dangman]

Hmm, yeah, I see your point. I guess to get a good price I'd have to hope to get a good deal on a used one then. Even so, if I had to pay the same price as when the chip came out, a high-end LGA1155 CPU would still be a big upgrade to the G530, right?

I guess.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, are you saying that buying an AM3+ / Bulldozer might be more cost effective than upgrading the CPU on LGA1155?

It might be depending on when exactly you're upgrading and the price of those AM3+ mobos and BD CPUs. I remember quite a few times recommending to other people to buy a new AM2+ or AM3 motherboard + CPU rather than upgrade their Intel socket 775 CPUs because it was more cost-effective then.

Ok, so in and of itself it sounds like that is pretty irrelevant and important part is who the actual mfg. is, not that it isn't the company it's branded as.

Correct.

Thanks for the explanation and link. Is it pretty quick and easy to choose a high quality PSU that way by finding a good review of a unit at the price point I'm looking for? I really can't afford to spend the time researching individual components like PSU in detail and reading reviews, and that goes x10 if I had to do it for every component. Do you feel that PSUs in particular require this level of care in selection, or all components of a build?

The PSU requires a bit more level of care since it makes a difference whether the PC lives or dies. Every other part, you can sort of take a little less time on it.

Based on the doctors I've dealt with, I'd try my luck with the kindergartners. At least they probably wouldn't make me pay through the nose for condescension, flaky advice, and poor results.

OOOOkaaaaay, wrong example then. Either way, take Newegg PSU reviews with a grain of salt.

Is that more expertise than the enthusiasts have, or more expertise than other components require?

Both.

Ok, thanks. I thought that was the main thing I needed to nail down, but now it sounds like maybe I'm in way over my head and this would take a lot longer than I had in mind to figure out a good build. *sigh*

I just noticied that you have a $450 budget. If you can drop the overclocking requirement, you can get a good system for that much:
$230 - Intel Core i5 2400 + Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 2 x 4GB DDR3 1600 RAM
$100 - MSIH67MA-E45 Intel H67 mATX Motherboard
$45 - Antec NEO ECO 400C 400W PSU
$36 - NZXT GAMMA
---
Total: $411 plus tax and shipping.

 

[tonytnnt]

Here's a build.

For under $450 you get a top end LGA 1155 CPU that can be overclocked.

$205 (use promo code EMCKAJG23) - Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core
$100 (use promo code EMCKAKA32) - BIOSTAR TZ68A+ LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX
$44 - G.SKILL Value Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333
$45 - Antec NEO ECO 400C 400W
$36 - NZXT GAMMA Classic Series GAMA-001BK Black Steel ATX
Total: $430 (no mail in rebates)

Use the integrated graphics on the motherboard. They'll be fine for the 2D work you're describing.

Edit:

Since you mentioned overclocking, and my build is under $450, here's a good heatsink and fan to get you going:
$30 - COOLER MASTER Hyper 212 Plus

Overstock.com has it for a few dollars less if you don't mind doing a second order (it will probably take longer to reach you than the Newegg parts though.)

 

[Dangman]

Dang it.

Definitely go with Tony's build then if you don't need a dedicated GPU. It's slightly faster and has overclocking capability.

 

[DblClipTite]

Hi guys,

Thanks again for your help.

Actually, kindergartners these days are thieves.

Jeez, who can you trust these days?

Thanks for elaborating on the issues with newegg PSU reviews.

In fact, I had purchased a 430W Thermaltake TR2 a while ago and then returned it after experiencing annoying stability issues with a Core 2 Duo system.

What kind of stability issues? Like freezes, crashes? Just curious what signs I could keep an eye out for to suspect a PSU issue.

And had I continued to use that TR2 430 for much longer on that system, the system would have been damaged badly enough to require me to pay more than $400 just to repair that system (by purchasing replacement parts). And that $400+ is more than that entire Core 2 Duo system is actually worth.

Yeah, that would really suck.

Based on how it sounds like Thermaltake operates, I guess I'll steer clear of their products in the future.

I like my P67A-G45.

Oh, cool, thanks!

Also, I use XP every day at work. And then I come home to Windows 7. And it just reminds me of how much of a dog XP really is. It was great when it came out, but it should have been put out to pasture a long time ago.

I agree, it should have been put out to pasture, replaced with something better (e.g. that can use more than 3GB of RAM and doesn't have a heap that's too small to support the applications I want to run). The problem is they tried to replace it with something that sucked big time, and moved on to something that sucks a bit less.

PSUs are so tricky because they're not as standardized as CPUs, motherboards, and GPUs....

The PSU requires a bit more level of care since it makes a difference whether the PC lives or dies. Every other part, you can sort of take a little less time on it.

Oh, ok, that makes sense.

It might be depending on when exactly you're upgrading and the price of those AM3+ mobos and BD CPUs. I remember quite a few times recommending to other people to buy a new AM2+ or AM3 motherboard + CPU rather than upgrade their Intel socket 775 CPUs because it was more cost-effective then.

I hope to have more freedom to upgrade the mobo cost-effectively this time around (see below about retail / OEM Windows).

OOOOkaaaaay, wrong example then. Either way, take Newegg PSU reviews with a grain of salt.

Yeah, I do see your point.


****************************************


Thanks for your build suggestions. This is what I was afraid of with posting a specific budget though. I wanted to put more like $250 or $300, but I was afraid that might be impossibly low and you guys would be pissed. So I put what I felt was the maximum I might be able to muster if it was the only way I could get a new system up and running. I'd prefer to spend a lot less than the maximum if it's consistent with my priorities though.

Based on the discussion we've had, it sounds like I'd be wise to go with your pick of PSU, especially since you (Danny Bui & tonytnnt) recommend the same model and it's at the right price point for me.

However, I think you guys might be misunderstanding my priorities in other areas. I'd rather save $100+ right now by going with the G530 and just have the option to upgrade to a higher-end LGA1155 CPU later, or a different mobo & CPU altogether if it makes more sense at the time. I just need to get out of the hell I'm in with my P4 main machine. I've had the opportunity recently to use an old MacBook Pro with a T7600 C2D 2.33 GHz and Windows XP, and that runs good, way smoother than my P4 desktop. And the G530 ought to blow away a T7600, no? Not to mention the performance of a desktop vs. a laptop.

Also, you guys are suggesting 8GB RAM, but with Windows XP I'll only be able to utilize 3GB. So it seems to me I'm better off buying 4GB and saving the money -- let Windows use 3GB and the Sandy Bridge gfx the other 1GB if I end up using Sandy Bridge gfx.

Where I have to spend some money, I think I'd prefer to spend it on a quality motherboard, that ideally offers some upgrade potential. The upgrade potential maybe isn't that big of a concern, because as you guys have pointed out it could be more cost-effective to upgrade to a different mobo + CPU rather than a different LGA1155 CPU, and also because I plan to get ahold of a retail version of Windows XP this time. Last time I made the mistake of getting OEM which chained me to the P.O.S. socket 478 on my current mobo.

Windows 7 keeps coming up, so another consideration with that is that I'm not going to get screwed by going with OEM Windows again, and there's no way in hell I'm paying $250 for a retail version of an OS I don't even want, and that seems to be slated to be replaced a lot quicker than XP was. The asking prices for XP aren't cheap either, but right now I supposedly (fingers crossed) have a retail version of XP Pro on the way for $50.

 

[Dangman]

What kind of stability issues? Like freezes, crashes? Just curious what signs I could keep an eye out for to suspect a PSU issue.

Freezes, crashes, BSODs, random restarts, etc

Based on how it sounds like Thermaltake operates, I guess I'll steer clear of their products in the future.

To be fair, Thermaltake's Toughpower PSUs are of pretty good quality. Far far beyond any of their other PSU lines.

Thanks for your build suggestions. This is what I was afraid of with posting a specific budget though. I wanted to put more like $250 or $300, but I was afraid that might be impossibly low and you guys would be pissed.

Actually no we probably could have done a $250 to $300 build as long as you dropped that dedicated GPU and "CPU upgrade requirement". We've definitely done it before in the past.

Ok, the main confusion for me is that you weren't up front about your exact "real" budget. If you had told us what your actual budget was, we wouldn't be recommend $450+ builds since you said "$450 max". We only go over a budget if its absolutely needed. But we generally try to hit a budget. We only go below budget if the budget is absurdly high to begin with and/or requirements are low (i.e a $2000 gaming PC for a gaming at 1680x1050 resolution or a $1000 budget for an office machine). And before you ask, your answers to question #2 are actually quite typical for $500 to $1000 builds.

Also, you guys are suggesting 8GB RAM, but with Windows XP I'll only be able to utilize 3GB. So it seems to me I'm better off buying 4GB and saving the money -- let Windows use 3GB and the Sandy Bridge gfx the other 1GB if I end up using Sandy Bridge gfx.

RAM is ridiculously cheap right now. In addition, RAM prices are expected to go up over the next few months. Sure it means spending more money up front but it means spending a lot less money later on when you do upgrade the OS.

 

[tonytnnt]

Well, if you'd rather have your budget be around $250, drop the 2500k down to the Celeron you were talking about earlier and then get 4 GB of RAM instead of 8.

$57 - Intel Celeron G530 Sandy Bridge 2.4GHz 2 x 256KB L2 Cache 2MB L3 Cache
$20 - Crucial 4GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333

If you use the PSU, motherboard, and case from my original build you're looking at a total price of $258.

Honestly, if you're spending $157 on the CPU and motherboard, I usually recommend AMD at this price point. But if you want Intel there's your build.

 

[E4g1e]

What kind of stability issues? Like freezes, crashes? Just curious what signs I could keep an eye out for to suspect a PSU issue.

Mainly random freezes and the frequent BSODs.

 

[Dangman]

Well, if you'd rather have your budget be around $250, drop the 2500k down to the Celeron you were talking about earlier and then get 4 GB of RAM instead of 8.

$57 - Intel Celeron G530 Sandy Bridge 2.4GHz 2 x 256KB L2 Cache 2MB L3 Cache
$20 - Crucial 4GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333

If you use the PSU, motherboard, and case from my original build you're looking at a total price of $258.

See? We definitely could have that $250 to $300 price point

Honestly, if you're spending $157 on the CPU and motherboard, I usually recommend AMD at this price point. But if you want Intel there's your build.

A little curious actually: Around that price range, would you have gone with an AMD Athlon II setup or a Phenom II setup? Either are feasible around that price range depending on motherboard quality requirements.

Though IIRC, the Celeron G530 does outperform the Athlon II CPUs.

 

[tonytnnt]

See? We definitely could have that $250 to $300 price point


A little curious actually: Around that price range, would you have gone with an AMD Athlon II setup or a Phenom II setup? Either are feasible around that price range depending on motherboard quality requirements.

Though IIRC, the Celeron G530 does outperform the Athlon II CPUs.

In general I'm one who finds that people most often replace their CPU and motherboard at the same time. So I'd usually try to find a cheap AM3 (some $60-$70 Biostar) and a $100ish quad core to meet $160. However, as OP wants USB 3 and SATA 6, I would propose this setup:
$80 - BIOSTAR TA880GU3+ AM3 AMD 880G SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
$78 - AMD Athlon II X3 450 Rana 3.2GHz Socket AM3 95W Triple-Core Desktop Processor ADX450WFGMBOX

There's even a combo with that CPU to get the RAM for $9.

Looking at some benchmarks, since OP isn't planning on gaming, the extra core on the x3 will likely help him more than the faster IPC on Sandy Bridge. Although I was only able to directly compare the Pentium G620 to the Athlon II x3 450, which gives Intel an advantage in many of the benchmarks. The smaller cache and lower clockspeed of the G530 isn't likely to help it, especially if one were to overclock the x3.

 

[DblClipTite]

Freezes, crashes, BSODs, random restarts, etc

Ok, thanks.

To be fair, Thermaltake's Toughpower PSUs are of pretty good quality. Far far beyond any of their other PSU lines.

Ok, good to know.

Actually no we probably could have done a $250 to $300 build as long as you dropped that dedicated GPU and "CPU upgrade requirement". We've definitely done it before in the past.

Ok, the main confusion for me is that you weren't up front about your exact "real" budget. If you had told us what your actual budget was, we wouldn't be recommend $450+ builds since you said "$450 max". We only go over a budget if its absolutely needed. But we generally try to hit a budget. We only go below budget if the budget is absurdly high to begin with and/or requirements are low (i.e a $2000 gaming PC for a gaming at 1680x1050 resolution or a $1000 budget for an office machine). And before you ask, your answers to question #2 are actually quite typical for $500 to $1000 builds.

Yeah, sorry, I just didn't know if it was really possible for under $300. Especially since at one point I was thinking I could use my case and PSU if I wanted, and now I've learned that I can't.

Re: dedicated GPU, I was originally planning to use the integrated GPU in Sandy Bridge, but then I wasn't encouraged by the ratings I saw on Z68 mobos and I didn't want to limit myself with H67.

Originally I thought that having a decent CPU upgrade path should be a high priority, since I got screwed with a dead-end socket last time. But this time I intend to get retail Windows, so if it makes more sense now and in the future I'm willing to consider upgrading mobo and CPU together instead of trying to get a mobo that I can upgrade the CPU on.

RAM is ridiculously cheap right now. In addition, RAM prices are expected to go up over the next few months. Sure it means spending more money up front but it means spending a lot less money later on when you do upgrade the OS.

How much is it likely to go up? If I was going to use an OS that could take advantage of it, I'd probably spring for 16GB of RAM, because I'm sick to death of the memory limits in XP. But realistically it might be years before I move from XP to another OS.

Honestly, if you're spending $157 on the CPU and motherboard, I usually recommend AMD at this price point. But if you want Intel there's your build.

I'm actually perfectly willing to consider AMD. I was just under the impression that Sandy Bridge performance is sticking it to AMD and that Sandy Bridge represents better performance *and* value at this point. And, I thought I'd have a good upgrade path with LGA1155, while the prospects for AMD or murky since AM3 is a dead-end and the performance of Bulldozer / Zambezi is a question mark.

Mainly random freezes and the frequent BSODs.

Ok, thanks. For what it's worth, I haven't had those issues with this Thermaltake PSU from 6 years ago.

See? We definitely could have that $250 to $300 price point

Yeah, sorry guys. My expertise is in software and I'm struggling to figure this out. Everything is completely different each time I think about building a computer. And I didn't want a repeat of the last time where I chose poorly and / or got unlucky (dead end socket 478 combined with OEM Windows, and now lack of availability of XP)

 

[Dangman]

How much is it likely to go up? If I was going to use an OS that could take advantage of it, I'd probably spring for 16GB of RAM, because I'm sick to death of the memory limits in XP. But realistically it might be years before I move from XP to another OS.

I'd say there's about 80% chance of RAM pricings going up and up judging from what I've read and what I experienced during the DDR2 days.

I'm actually perfectly willing to consider AMD. I was just under the impression that Sandy Bridge performance is sticking it to AMD and that Sandy Bridge represents better performance *and* value at this point. And, I thought I'd have a good upgrade path with LGA1155, while the prospects for AMD or murky since AM3 is a dead-end and the performance of Bulldozer / Zambezi is a question mark.

Your impression isn't entirely wrong if you're talking about the more expensive SB CPUs and/or gaming.

AM3+ does have a higher chance of longevity since it was only introduced to support Bulldozer CPUs. Considering that's the only reason for the existence of the AM3+ socket, stands to reason that there is a really good chance of future Bulldozer support.

Looking at some benchmarks, since OP isn't planning on gaming, the extra core on the x3 will likely help him more than the faster IPC on Sandy Bridge. Although I was only able to directly compare the Pentium G620 to the Athlon II x3 450, which gives Intel an advantage in many of the benchmarks. The smaller cache and lower clockspeed of the G530 isn't likely to help it, especially if one were to overclock the x3.

I can see that. The closest review I've seen is the Celeron 540 being compared to the Athlon II X2 250:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/celeron-g540-g440.html

Depending on the usage, the X2 250 wasn't so far behind the G540. A 3rd core like the one found in the X3 450 might equal things a bit.

 

[tonytnnt]

Didn't even see this (if you're considering AMD):
$80 - AMD Athlon II X3 455 Rana 3.3GHz 3 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM3 95W Triple-Core Desktop Processor ADX455WFGMBOX (for another $2 more get this)

Ideally you'd want to spend the extra money to get into a Deneb core Phenom II x4:
$110 - AMD Phenom II X4 945 Deneb 3.0GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor HDX945WFGMBOX
$120 - AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition Deneb 3.2GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core Processor HDZ955FBGMBOX

And then for a motherboard, get him into an AM3+ one or an AM3 that has a bios update to enable at least first gen Bulldozer. Although I don't see AM3+ lasting longer than the Bulldozer generation. Enhanced Bulldozer is reported to require socket FM2 and is supposed to arrive in 2012. So basically AM3+ may have a shorter lifespan than 1155 given current predictions that Haswell arrives in 2013. But Z68 might not work with Ivy Bridge, so who knows. But basically,

Of course if you boost up to $190 for a CPU+motherboard the Core i3-2100 with an H61 or H67 motherboard starts to enter the fray.

And if OP can drop his future overclocking requirement and SATA 6, he could get into an H61 or H67 motherboard with USB 3 with a Pentium G850 for $160:
$158 - Intel Pentium G850 Sandy Bridge 2.9GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor BX80623G850 and BIOSTAR H61MU3 LGA 1155 Intel H61 HDMI USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard

 

[DblClipTite]

So it sounds like AM3+ and LGA1155 both have a decent chance of being dead-ends. Maybe the question is starting to be, what would have better resale value in a few years??

Ideally you'd want to spend the extra money to get into a Deneb core Phenom II x4:

Since I'm on a tight budget, I'm just not sure if it's necessary or worth it. It's easy to get on a slippery slope where you start thinking, well if I just spend a little bit more I can get X, then once you adjust to that, well if I just spend a little bit more I can get Y. If there's an <= $80 CPU that will do the trick for me for now, and these architectures have very questionable upgrade paths anyway, it might make more sense for me to just go with the cheap CPU.

Like I said, I've had a good experience with a machine running a T7600 C2D 2.33 GHz and Windows XP. What do you guys think, wouldn't even a $58 G530 blow that away?

And then for a motherboard, get him into an AM3+ one or an AM3 that has a bios update to enable at least first gen Bulldozer.

I was really thinking about AMD originally, based on the idea that I could get an AM3+ mobo and inexpensive AM3 CPU. But then just within the past week I thought I read somewhere that Bulldozer CPUs would not in fact work in AM3 after all. That's when I decided to scrap that idea and go Sandy Bridge. But if my gameplan is going to be to just be prepared to upgrade mobo and CPU at the same time, that doesn't necessarily even matter.

And if OP can drop his future overclocking requirement and SATA 6, he could get into an H61 or H67 motherboard with USB 3 with a Pentium G850 for $160:

I guess I'm not married to the idea of overclocking. I've never done it before. I just thought it would be a good option to have to squeeze more performance / value / life out of the hardware I buy if I need it later.

SATA 6 probably wouldn't matter for HDs, right? (I'm not likely to be doing anything exotic in that department.) But what about SSDs, would SATA 3 be a big limitation then?

If I go Sandy Bridge, I'm just not sure I see the point of spending more to go with anything over the G530 at this point.

 

[tonytnnt]

...Since I'm on a tight budget, I'm just not sure if it's necessary or worth it. It's easy to get on a slippery slope where you start thinking, well if I just spend a little bit more I can get X, then once you adjust to that, well if I just spend a little bit more I can get Y. If there's an <= $80 CPU that will do the trick for me for now, and these architectures have very questionable upgrade paths anyway, it might make more sense for me to just go with the cheap CPU.

...

I guess I'm not married to the idea of overclocking. I've never done it before. I just thought it would be a good option to have to squeeze more performance / value / life out of the hardware I buy if I need it later.

SATA 6 probably wouldn't matter for HDs, right? (I'm not likely to be doing anything exotic in that department.) But what about SSDs, would SATA 3 be a big limitation then?

If I go Sandy Bridge, I'm just not sure I see the point of spending more to go with anything over the G530 at this point.

I agree with the slippery slope. Just pointing out the options. Overclocking will get you some more performance/value/life out of the system, however you can't overclock the Celeron. You'l have to buy a 2500k, which may or may not be cost effective down the road. I guess you need to ask yourself how likely are you to upgrade the CPU on this motherboard?

SATA 6 doesn't matter for traditional hard drives. It does matter for fast SSDs. Currently those SSDs include the Crucial M4 series, Intel 510, and OCZ Vertex 3 (and other SSDs like the Vertex 3 with the SandForce 3 controller.) However we generally only recommend the Crucial M4 and Intel 510 because of reliability/BSOD issues with the SandForce controller. Hopefully they fix it in a firmware update.

Also, about Bulldozer in AM3. There have been a few motherboards with BIOS updates to support AM3+ CPUs. However we don't know if there will be any limitations to that. And we still don't know what performance numbers Bulldozer will bring besides some hope that they'll be good overclockers (see HardOCP's video at AMD's overclocking PR event. Realize those are cherry picked chips though. I'd be interested to see Intel do the same event.) In general if you decide to go AMD, you'd be better off to get an AM3+ native motherboard if you think you're going to upgrade in the future. Also, in today's Newegg email, I think they have the Phenom II x4 955 Black Edition on sale for $105 using promo code EMCKAJE42. But then you'd be back at $185 for a CPU+Motherboard instead of sub-$160. If you think the Celeron G530 will be enough for you, go ahead. It should be faster than that T7600.

 

[SpeedyVV]

This has been a very informative read. Thanks contributors.

OP, here are my thoughts after readint the whole thread. I could be wrong, but basically you have a really tight budget now, but later you can spend some extra right?

The whole SATA 6, no dead end, GPU, makes things really merky.

For your budget of < $300, I would consider a couple of options.

Just build the fastest (+good PSU, reliabilty is a must really) system for Windows XP and for your current needs. Dont worry about future, it is too unpredictable, but both Intel, and AMD will allow you to get faster CPUs later on if you need to just upgrade the CPU.

The other option is to get a better used components. There are many folks here in the FS thread, and you can post a WTB for good CPU.

PS. I think some of the complains about Windows 7 taskbar can be corrected to act the way you want. But from what I can tell, your apps seem fine on XP.

 

[DblClipTite]

Alright, what do you guys think of these options?

AMD:

PSU: Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W = $50 (w/ MIR)

Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-990XA-UD3 = $140

CPU: In the range of cheap Athlon II X2 to Phenom II X4 = $60-105

I figure even a lower end Athlon II X2 would be a big step up from my current rig, and with the AM3+ mobo I could upgrade to Bulldozer later if I want (or try to get a good deal on a better AM3 if lots of people want to unload them when Bulldozer becomes available). There is an AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition Deneb 3.2GHz currently available on NewEgg for $105 shipped, if I understand their discount correctly. I did a quick search on the F/S forum here and there's someone asking <= $60 for an Athlon II X4 620. Anything special I would need to watch out for with a chip someone has been OCing?

RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3 1333 4-16 GB = $25-100

Graphics: SAPPHIRE 100292DDR3L Radeon HD 5450 = $25 (w/ MIR)

Case: NZXT GAMA-001BK

HD: Existing WD SATA

Optical: Existing LG SATA

OS: Windows XP Pro 32-bit

Total: $400-515


Intel:

PSU: Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W = $50 (w/ MIR)

Mobo: ASRock Z68 PRO3 = $113

CPU: Celeron G530

RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3 1333 4-16 GB = $25-100

Graphics: Sandy Bridge

Case: NZXT GAMA-001BK

HD: Existing WD SATA

Optical: Existing LG SATA

OS: Windows XP Pro 32-bit

Total: $340-415


As you can see, the low range of the Intel build only saves about $60 over the low range of the AMD build. But the high end of the Intel build, with 16GB RAM, is about the same as the low end of the AMD build.

I'm open to suggestion on everything, but I especially don't want to get stuck with a bad mobo, so please tell me if I'm choosing poorly. I also don't want to needlessly spend more than necessary on a mobo.

Of course if I'm choosing any components that present compatibility issues, or overlooking / leaving out anything critical, I'd love to be alterted.

Will I need thermal compound for these CPUs? If so, would Arctic 5 Silver from 6-7 years ago still be usable?

The case includes one 120mm fan. Can I get away with that to begin with?

So I guess bottom-mounted PSU is where it's at now? How hot do those get, do I need to worry about it melting my carpet or anything?

Thanks!

 

[DblClipTite]

I agree with the slippery slope. Just pointing out the options.

Ok, thanks.

Overclocking will get you some more performance/value/life out of the system, however you can't overclock the Celeron.

Understood. The appeal of the Celeron for me is that it's cheap, would be a big performance boost over what I have now, and the socket would allow me to upgrade to a better CPU, and possibly overclock, later if I need more power and can afford to spend more.

You'l have to buy a 2500k, which may or may not be cost effective down the road.

Ok, understood.

I guess you need to ask yourself how likely are you to upgrade the CPU on this motherboard?

Well, I definitely wanted to have the option. But after all of the discussion, and if I end up with retail Windows, it may be more doable to upgrade mobo + CPU than just CPU. Could go either way I guess.

SATA 6 doesn't matter for traditional hard drives. It does matter for fast SSDs. Currently those SSDs include the Crucial M4 series, Intel 510, and OCZ Vertex 3 (and other SSDs like the Vertex 3 with the SandForce 3 controller.) However we generally only recommend the Crucial M4 and Intel 510 because of reliability/BSOD issues with the SandForce controller. Hopefully they fix it in a firmware update.

Ok, thanks for this info. I might like to go SSD at some point. By then I should probably check again on what's recommended.

In general if you decide to go AMD, you'd be better off to get an AM3+ native motherboard if you think you're going to upgrade in the future.

That's what I figured originally. But if an AM3 mobo was attractively priced enough, I'd be willing to go with that and just plan to upgrade mobo if I needed more power than I could cost-effectively get an in AM3 CPU in the future.

Also, in today's Newegg email, I think they have the Phenom II x4 955 Black Edition on sale for $105 using promo code EMCKAJE42.

Thanks for pointing that out.

But then you'd be back at $185 for a CPU+Motherboard instead of sub-$160. If you think the Celeron G530 will be enough for you, go ahead. It should be faster than that T7600.

Based on the mobos that I've gravitated toward, I'd be looking at $245 with that CPU, and [only?] about $75 less for the G530 build. How do you guys go about selecting a good mobo? I feel like the only thing I have to go on, without spending a ton of time reading detailed reviews, is the ratings / reviews on NewEgg. I really don't want to get stuck with a P.O.S. mobo.

This has been a very informative read. Thanks contributors.

Thanks, I'd like to take the credit for that. J/K guys! This thread has been very informative for me, obviously.

OP, here are my thoughts after readint the whole thread.

Thanks for reading the whole thing and giving your feedback.

I could be wrong, but basically you have a really tight budget now

Yes.

but later you can spend some extra right?

Ideally / hopefully.

Just build the fastest (+good PSU, reliabilty is a must really) system for Windows XP and for your current needs. Dont worry about future, it is too unpredictable

Yeah. I just feel like I got totally screwed, because I got in at the top / end of socket 478 / P4 I guess and had no upgrade path. Then LGA775 was around forever with tons of CPU options. Now I guess you have to wonder if your socket will be obsolete in a year.

but both Intel, and AMD will allow you to get faster CPUs later on if you need to just upgrade the CPU.

Yeah, kind of. I guess you can always try to get a used one, but once they dump a socket and move on you might be stuck with a limited selection of CPU options with no more in the pipeline.

The other option is to get a better used components. There are many folks here in the FS thread, and you can post a WTB for good CPU.

Yeah, good point. I really want to get the show on the road with this, so there's defintely an appeal to being able to go to NewEgg, fill up a cart, and have a whole system worth of parts on the way.

PS. I think some of the complains about Windows 7 taskbar can be corrected to act the way you want. But from what I can tell, your apps seem fine on XP.

Well, if anyone has a solution for getting it to operate just like the taskbar in XP, I'd completely re-evaluate my stance on 7. I tried to do that with the release candidate and the best I could do was to get everything ungrouped, with each window showing up as its own separate tile in the taskbar. *BUT*, the tiles didn't line up in equal width vertical columns anymore, so it was a mess.

 

[engiNURD]

... I feel like the only thing I have to go on, without spending a ton of time reading detailed reviews, is the ratings / reviews on NewEgg. I really don't want to get stuck with a P.O.S. mobo.

If you don't want to spend the time reading all those different detailed reviews, then you can simply trust the people here (and the mobo subforum in particular) who have spent the time you wish to save.

Yeah, good point. I really want to get the show on the road with this, so there's defintely an appeal to being able to go to NewEgg, fill up a cart, and have a whole system worth of parts on the way.

It all comes down to how much you want to spend (in either time/effort or cold hard cash).

Well, if anyone has a solution for getting it to operate just like the taskbar in XP, I'd completely re-evaluate my stance on 7. I tried to do that with the release candidate and the best I could do was to get everything ungrouped, with each window showing up as its own separate tile in the taskbar. *BUT*, the tiles didn't line up in equal width vertical columns anymore, so it was a mess.

I simply turned off the text labels to overcome my irritation with the varying widths. I had so many tasks in my XP taskbar that I had to group them, so the grouping in Win7 didn't phase me. Quicklaunch toolbar was easy to replicate in XP fashion. What else? The main thing I have to get used to is to use the search function more instead of navigating through the different windows to get where I want, which actually works really well.

 

[SpeedyVV]

Ok, thanks.


Yeah. I just feel like I got totally screwed, because I got in at the top / end of socket 478 / P4 I guess and had no upgrade path. Then LGA775 was around forever with tons of CPU options. Now I guess you have to wonder if your socket will be obsolete in a year.

My friend, unless you are putting down $1000 on a build, think of this build more like the best you can for a 1 shot deal.

Later on, like some pointed out, if a new platform comes out chances are you can get a good upgrade for a reasonable price mobo+cpu+ram.

This is my opion. Get the most you can for the budget you have. You can get a lot as many have pointed out.

Newegg or buying some used parts is up to your personal choice. There is no right or wrong.

 

[DblClipTite]

This is what I ended up going with. Hopefully I didn't choose too poorly.


Item (Price, Discount, MIR, Total)

PSU: Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W (70, N/A, 20, 50)

Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-970A-UD3 (98, N/A, N/A, 98)

CPU: Phenom II X4 955 BE (120, 15, N/A, 105)

RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR3 1600 4x4GB (110, 15, N/A, 95)

GPU: SAPPHIRE 100293L Radeon HD 5570 (60, N/A, 10, 50)

Case: NZXT GAMA-001BK (41, N/A, N/A, 41)

Misc: Arctic Silver 5 (13, N/A, N/A, 13)

Total: (512, 30, 30, 452)


A bit more than I wanted to have to spend, but I got sick of looking and decided I'd be cutting my losses by just spending a bit more and getting it over with, so I can proceed to getting some work done.

I decided it's really unlikely I'm going to be overclocking, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to have the Phenom II X4 955 BE, but for $105 it seemed pretty competively priced compared to other AMD CPUs, and I hope it's a decent value and a huge performance upgrade to my current rig. At the last minute I had second thoughts and thought maybe I should have given Llano more of a look, or gone with Sandy Bridge after all, but who knows. I got screwed with an Intel build last time, so I don't really mind trying AMD even if they're running in second right now.

I got an AM3+ mobo and 9xx chipset, so that should give me some upgrade path. Maybe Bulldozer will be a disappointment, but it's inevitable that it'll offer some improvement over the Phenom II, right? And if it turns out to be good, that'll be nice, if I need more power.

I mentioned the Gigabyte GA-990XA-UD3, but I don't need Crossfire or SLI, so I went with the GA-970A-UD3 to save $40. I liked that the GA-990XA-UD3 had a good average rating, but, assuming that's even an accurate reflection of its quality, hopefully the GA-970A-UD3 is of similar quality. I went with ASUS last time and I preferred to try something else this time. Didn't really like the sound of Biostars I looked at. Hopefully Gigabyte is good stuff.

I was really tempted to get an 880GX AM3+ to save money with the integrated graphics, but since the whole point of going AM3+ is to have the option to upgrade to Bulldozer, that just involved too much uncertainty. I wish they'd come out with a 990GX chipset after all, that would have worked for me.

I ended up spending twice what I originally suggested on a GPU because the one I considered originally just sounded too dicey, too likely to be a piece of junk.

I got the 16GB RAM because it is so cheap right now. Last time I paid $120 (!) for *1GB* (2x512MB) of DDR 400. I won't be able to use most of the RAM for now with Windows XP, but if I have an OS that I can use more with later, I don't want to have to pay stupid prices to get more, especially if DDR3 isn't even the current generation at that point. I was going to get the 1333, but with the promo code the 1600 actually ended up being cheaper. My understanding is that it can be tricky to run 1600 with AMD, but that it can fall back to 1333 and run smooth. I'm fine with it running at 1333, and since the 1600 was cheaper it's a no-lose proposition for me (wish I had more of those).

I made one stupid blunder that I know of. I added a few extraneous items to round out the order to $500 to take advantage of the 12-month interest free financing offer at NewEgg and I couldn't think what to get to make it the last $15 or so. It was also late and I was tired. So I ended up getting a stupid memory card reader bracket and then realized I could have bought another case fan instead. I went to pick one out, but by the time I did the order had been charged and I couldn't change it anymore.

Running this setup at stock speeds, how much cooling do I need (in the Northeastern US)? Will the one 42CFM fan included with the case and the fan in the PSU provide enough airflow, or do I need more case fans? I don't want to fry any of the parts.

 

[Dangman]

Never count the PSU fan as part of the case's cooling. The PSU fan never moves enough air to make a difference in cooling in a case.

A single 120mm fan should be ok but I'd add another 120mm fan just in case

Biggest issue with that setup would the thermal paste: You really don't need it unless you're planning on removing and installing the HSF multiple times. Even if you were planning on doing that, there are better thermal paste for the money out there.

 

[DblClipTite]

I simply turned off the text labels to overcome my irritation with the varying widths.

Oh man, that sounds insane. I'd have no idea what anything was. Seeing dozens of identical Opera (for example) icons with no labels is not going to make for a usable setup.

I had so many tasks in my XP taskbar that I had to group them, so the grouping in Win7 didn't phase me.

Yeah, I have a lot too, but I've never found grouping helpful.

The main thing I have to get used to is to use the search function more instead of navigating through the different windows to get where I want, which actually works really well.

I don't think I'm familiar with that. Maybe I'll look into it.

My friend, unless you are putting down $1000 on a build, think of this build more like the best you can for a 1 shot deal.

Ok, well thanks for the advice.

Later on, like some pointed out, if a new platform comes out chances are you can get a good upgrade for a reasonable price mobo+cpu+ram.

Yeah, I guess, if I get up and running with retail Windows this time. Hopefully my case and PSU won't be obsolete next time, at least.

 

[DblClipTite]

Never count the PSU fan as part of the case's cooling. The PSU fan never moves enough air to make a difference in cooling in a case.

Ok.

A single 120mm fan should be ok but I'd add another 120mm fan just in case

Hmm, ok. I guess I'll have think about picking up another one relatively soon. Kicking myself for not thinking of it when I was loading up the cart.

Biggest issue with that setup would the thermal paste: You really don't need it unless you're planning on removing and installing the HSF multiple times.

Really? Damn, too bad nobody noticed or had the chance to reply to my question about the thermal paste in post #32, I would've been happy to skip it.

How come you don't need it in the first place, but do if you remove / reinstall the HSF multiple times?

Even if you were planning on doing that, there are better thermal paste for the money out there.

Really? Arctic is really the only stuff I'm familiar with, I guess I just thought it was kind of a standard choice.

 

[engiNURD]

Oh man, that sounds insane. I'd have no idea what anything was. Seeing dozens of identical Opera (for example) icons with no labels is not going to make for a usable setup.

I use FF with tab mix plus and tree style tab addons making my tabs vertical and nested (and/or Chrome w/ vertical tabs), which helps me group and manage my 100+ browser tabs more efficiently (split between 3 windows). Heck, most apps I use have tabs, including my dev tools (metware/eclipse, crimson, slickedit, vstudio, etc).

Yeah, I have a lot too, but I've never found grouping helpful.

I alt+tab through my windows, but if I have too many open, then the grouping is still easy to nagivate through w/ win7's preview.

Yeah, I guess, if I get up and running with retail Windows this time. Hopefully my case and PSU won't be obsolete next time, at least.

I've found that I get the most bang for my buck with midrange systems and upgrading them every 2-3 yrs (still leaves resale value for the old parts while leaving enough of a gap to appreciate the performance improvements from the upgrade). Personally (and generally speaking), my CPU/Mobo/RAM gets upgraded every 2.5yrs, my cases whenever i find a super deal or i get tired of my current case, my PSUs every 4yrs, and my vidcard gets upgraded whenever I can no longer play a game that I like or if I'm adding a new system to my collection. Although, I have a long hand-me-down chain, so it's easy for me to justify upgrades.

Really? Damn, too bad nobody noticed or had the chance to reply to my question about the thermal paste in post #32, I would've been happy to skip it.
How come you don't need it in the first place, but do if you remove / reinstall the HSF multiple times?
Really? Arctic is really the only stuff I'm familiar with, I guess I just thought it was kind of a standard choice.

AS5 requires cure time, while the new choices dont and perform the same or better. Personally, I use MX-2, but I haven't read up on the new stuff since I built my i7 920 a couple yrs ago.

The thermal interface material that comes with the stock HSF is good enough. Once you remove it, you'll need to clean off the old and apply a new layer for best results.